{"error":false,"id":["154053"],"data":{"IVOD_ID":154053,"IVOD_URL":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154053","日期":"2024-06-17","會議資料":{"會議代碼":"委員會-11-1-35-28","會議代碼:str":"第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第28次全體委員會議","屆":11,"會期":1,"會次":28,"臨時會會次":null,"種類":"委員會","委員會代碼":[35],"委員會代碼:str":["外交及國防委員會"],"標題":"第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第28次全體委員會議"},"影片種類":"Clip","開始時間":"2024-06-17T09:50:36+08:00","結束時間":"2024-06-17T09:59:02+08:00","影片長度":"00:08:26","支援功能":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/730d19f328ad3b926bd6d34562497afbafafc43ba26a35056824d40b1933d67586617f26213d19805ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳永康","委員發言時間":"09:50:36 - 09:59:02","會議時間":"2024-06-17T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第28次全體委員會議【含秘密會議】（事由：一、邀請國防部報告「海空戰力提升計畫採購進度及執行成效」，並備質詢。\n二、邀請國防部報告「國防部機密專案預算需求」，並備質詢。【報告秘密，詢答「先秘密、後公開」】）","gazette":{"lineno":245,"blocks":[["陳委員永康：（9時50分）有請部長。"],["主席：有請部長，謝謝。"],["顧部長立雄：是，陳委員好。"],["陳委員永康：部長早，今天聽取了有關特別預算的執行經過，我針對裡面一些部分提出建言、提供參考，有請中科院院長。","立法院在110年制定的海空戰力提升計畫採購特別條例，在111年到115年要完成，這裡面的項目有特別提到海軍高效能艦艇工進延宕。院長，海軍STIR雷達的歷史淵源是從當初荷蘭的STIR雷達併到法國的公司，由法國公司再到美國登記，現在由美國的公司拿到合約，再交給子公司，結果他的量能產製不足所以延宕，現階段一到六都已經交了，我們特別拿這個做為案例，在第二階段七到十二要特別注意，部長在這個採購合約是專家，我們當初簽這個約，簽約的對象絕對不是子公司嘛，對不對？但是他又主合約公司給子公司，所以合約裡面的proviso附加條款要說明，如果這個不是不可抗力的因素，而是當初錯估生產製造期程的產量、動線上子公司不能達標；因此，我們在採購上要保護我們的權益，理論上罰則要offset抵消……第二個，比方講七到十二裡面要抵消一部分權益時要把它加進去，這個現象到第二期的七到十二 STIR雷達的交貨不能夠再產生延宕，一方面是保障我們，前面你揹的責任是因為工程延宕，雖然案子已經交了，如果照我們合約裡面的項次，該罰他還是要罰他，這個特別提醒注意。"],["張院長忠誠：對，是的。"],["陳委員永康：第二個，本案現在進入第3年了，以5年的期程，因為軍售、商售快速獲得，我們現在除了裝備的獲得也面臨另外一個挑戰，請部長注意，國軍的編現比80%，這是一般概念，很多單位是低於這個，所有新武器、新裝備，尤其是海巡現在也強調他們是第二海軍，他們也要在巡防艦上加裝海軍的武器，由海軍籌購，暫時增加員額，海軍有沒有額外的員額？平常海軍跟海巡的橫向協調，就是跨部會協商時，裡面的準則教範會面臨一個很大的挑戰。","舊裝備的更替，面臨戰術概念的更新、後勤維保的複雜，相對在裝備操作手冊、準則教範、維保技令都在編修的情況下非常的繁瑣，國軍囿於人力受限，參加這些工作會產生惡性循環，所以人員的招募是另外一個重點，也就是說人力員額獲得期程、裝備的預算及裝備的性能，這三個關係要同步的控管，而不是管期程就不管員額，裝備拿到了就不在乎前面的罰則、要不要罰他，這三個要同步重視。","另外，我特別提到共同圖像（COP），由於海巡要加裝飛彈，需要派海軍的人上去，海巡艦長並沒有參與過我們國軍的準則教範甚至指參訓練，在聯合作戰構想時，如果沒有一個共同圖像，大家的判斷會產生錯誤，也就是作戰過程中，千軍萬馬在一個圖上出現，如果海巡的人不進駐我們的聯演中心，也就是就作戰中心受訓，那又沒有共同圖像，回頭請示是不同比例的圖，目標選定產生時間差，那聯合作戰的效益就不會發揮。","此外，我今天看到中科院的報告，我們的拌藥產量已經進步了，這數字就不念了，但還有一個5%到16%的落差。我提醒一下，尤其是拌藥製程中，我曉得院長也很重視安全，我們的風險控管risk management更重要，而不是傷後damage control，如何能夠消除人員的損傷，員工的安全要幫他特別保險，這個是非常重要的，尤其是在火炸藥攪拌的過程中，特別提醒注意。","鳳展專案當然希望在2026年能夠順利完成，因為目前空軍飛行員的座艙比短時間還沒有辦法提升，我們一方面培訓新飛行員的量要加大，二方面現在轉型過來的飛行員，可能從原來的機種換裝過來，這個速度要加快。我請問一下參謀長，您認為一個F-16V的飛行員，他的基礎飛行時數要多少小時，你才認為他是一個合格的飛行員？"],["曹參謀長進平：委員好，我是空軍參謀長曹進平，委員提到F-16V飛行員訓練的問題，其實我們沒有一個確實的、具體的數字來做規範，但以一般訓練來講，大概完成三個階段的訓練就可以達到我們戰力的需求，後續會在他的飛行生涯裡持續精進他的戰術技能。"],["陳委員永康：我們希望您這邊幫空軍整體規劃座艙比，我不談數字，但必須要提升……"],["曹參謀長進平：是。"],["陳委員永康：因為這個負荷太重，再加上有一部分飛行員的流失，所以這是一個非常重要的專案，我們全力配合也支持，但本席站在國防委員會的角色立場來看，我們不只是協助建言，在很多執行過程中，力道不夠集中或是時程進度、水平落後時，要作為督導。","最後，我們提出一個國家安全戰略，國家安全戰略的終極目標是和平避戰，方法是強軍備戰，手段是能戰止戰，這就是目的、方法、手段，我希望國防部不要把這三個名詞混淆，我們現在在推動國家安全戰略，希望明確訂定，後面在其他會議中，我們再提出建言，這邊提出建議給部長參考。以上，謝謝。"],["顧部長立雄：謝謝委員，剛剛委員所指教的，我們會後會一一再跟委員說明，譬如說F-16V的座艙比，我聽過他們報告兩次了，應該都有積極的準備當中，謝謝委員指教，我們會後會一一再跟委員做充分的解釋。"],["陳委員永康：另外請教中科院，有關STIR雷達的下一個階段，也就是七到十二的合約，對於美國製造公司的子公司，那一段一定要釐清。"],["張院長忠誠：我們會納入要求。"],["陳委員永康：對，要要求，因為這對我們是一種保障。"],["張院長忠誠：是。"],["陳委員永康：好，謝謝。"],["顧部長立雄：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝陳永康委員、謝謝部長。","接下來有請黃仁委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":396,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-35-28","speakers":["王定宇","林楚茵","陳永康","黃仁","馬文君","徐巧芯","沈伯洋","羅美玲","洪申翰","張啓楷","賴士葆","楊瓊瓔","邱志偉","羅智強","李坤城","陳冠廷","鄭天財Sra 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﹝廢話﹞"},{"start":87.677,"end":88.177,"text":" ８提供答案８"},{"start":112.947,"end":113.727,"text":"二、邀請國防部報告．"},{"start":139.491,"end":152.526,"text":" ﹖第二﹖本案進入第三年﹖五年的期爭﹖因為軍售、商售快速獲得﹖我們現在除了裝備的獲得﹖面臨的另外一個挑戰﹖也請部長注意國軍的邊線比80%﹖這是"},{"start":156.653,"end":180.662,"text":"一般概念很多單位是低於這個所以新武器新裝備尤其是海巡現在他也強調他是第二海軍他也要在船上的他的這個巡防艦上加裝這個海軍的武器由海軍籌購暫時加這個員額海軍有沒有額外的員額來那平常海軍跟海巡的橫向協調就是掛舖會協商的時候"},{"start":185.196,"end":213.456,"text":" ﹝廢話﹞"},{"start":213.922,"end":214.943,"text":"另外：另外我們"},{"start":247.106,"end":269.898,"text":"我特別提到就是我們講的共同圖像就是COP那麼由於海巡要加裝飛彈那麼他要海軍的人派上去那海巡的艦長並沒有參與過我們的國軍的準則教範甚至只參的訓練那在這個跟聯合作戰構想的時候如果沒有一個共同圖像"},{"start":271.052,"end":271.072,"text":" ﹝廣告﹞"},{"start":296.9,"end":324.459,"text":"另外中科院本身我看到今天的報告就是說我們的半藥產量已經進步了這數字就不念了但是還有一個5%到16%的落差我提醒因為這個尤其是半藥這個製程中間我曉得這個院長也很重視安全我們的風險控管Risk Management更重要而不是傷後Damage Control我如何能夠消除人員的損傷"},{"start":325.95,"end":326.37,"text":"議員：陳永康議員：陳永康議員：陳永康"},{"start":337.332,"end":337.452,"text":"議員：陳永康議員"},{"start":363.23,"end":390.16,"text":"16V的飛行員他的基礎飛行時數要多少小時你才認為他是一個合格的委員好我是空軍參謀長曹敬平委員提到這F16飛行員訓練的問題其實我們沒有一個確實的具體的數字來做規範但一般的訓練來講他大概完成我們三個階段的訓練就可以達到我們的戰力的需求那後續會在他飛行生涯裡面持續的精進他的戰術技能"},{"start":391.944,"end":420.438,"text":"我們希望您這邊幫空軍整體規劃我們的座艙比我不談數字必須要提升因為這個負荷太重再加上一部分飛行員的流失所以這是一個非常重要的專案我們是全力配合也支持但我本席站在國防委員會角色的立場來看我們不只是協度建言當然在很多執行過程中力道不夠集中或者是還有時程"},{"start":421.539,"end":421.82,"text":"議員：陳永康議員"},{"start":428.715,"end":454.975,"text":"國家安全戰略國家安全戰略的終極目標是和平必戰我們的方法是強軍備戰手段是能戰止戰就是目的、方法、手段我希望國防部不要把這三個名詞混淆我們現在在推動國家安全戰略希望明確定定那麼後面在其他的這個會議中間我們再提出建言這邊提出的建議給部長做參考以上謝謝"},{"start":456.352,"end":475.908,"text":"好,謝謝委員。剛剛委員所指教的我們會後會一一再跟委員做說明。像比如說F16的座長筆的這個部分,我也聽過他們大概兩次的報告了。應該都有在積極的準備當中這樣子。那謝謝委員。我想我們會後會一一再跟委員做一個充分的解釋這樣子。"},{"start":476.84,"end":477.88,"text":"謝謝陳永康委員 謝謝部長接下來有請黃仁委員"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}