{"error":false,"id":["154085"],"data":{"IVOD_ID":154085,"IVOD_URL":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154085","日期":"2024-06-18","會議資料":{"會議代碼":"院會-11-1-18","會議代碼:str":"第11屆第1會期第18次會議","屆":11,"會期":1,"會次":18,"臨時會會次":null,"種類":"院會","標題":"立法院第11屆第1會期第18次會議"},"影片種類":"Clip","開始時間":"2024-06-18T16:49:25+08:00","結束時間":"2024-06-18T17:20:05+08:00","影片長度":"00:30:40","支援功能":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/237480b52e5f529a458697a3c93d3c7a84a337f76c37b5eac068960e09b3c1e823ca7a029bb132625ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳玉珍","委員發言時間":"16:49:25 - 17:20:05","會議時間":"2024-06-18T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"第11屆第1會期第18次會議（事由：一、對行政院院長報告施政方針繼續質詢。\n二、6月14日上午9時至10時為國是論壇時間。\n三、6月18日下午1時50分至2時30分為處理臨時提案時間。）","gazette":{"lineno":401,"blocks":[["陳委員玉珍：（16時49分）院長好，請卓院長。"],["主席：再請卓院長備詢。"],["卓院長榮泰：陳委員好。"],["陳委員玉珍：院長好。今天新聞有報導，有漁民目擊共軍的094型核潛艇在臺灣海峽出現，應該是海峽的中線。"],["卓院長榮泰：海峽中線。"],["陳委員玉珍：不到海峽中線啦！"],["卓院長榮泰：對，沒有過來。"],["陳委員玉珍：應該是在比較偏我們金門這一邊發現，然後有漁民通報。"],["卓院長榮泰：有。"],["陳委員玉珍：我們海軍有獎勵軍民合作，以前有提出一個獎勵辦法，發現軍艦跟公務船的民眾回報就有獎金，您知道這個辦法嘛！知道嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：是。"],["陳委員玉珍：我們不宜曝光漁民的身分，但是我想知道過去5年，成功拍下軍艦領獎後領獎金的案件數有多少？"],["顧部長立雄：跟委員報告，我們在112年是通報1件，獎金1萬，111年是通報3件，獎金3萬，在之前的比較多，我手上還沒有一個數字，如果會後有的話……"],["陳委員玉珍：部長，您看拍下這些公務船、科研船，這幾年有沒有增加通報的趨勢？"],["顧部長立雄：沒有，反而降低。"],["陳委員玉珍：反而降低。"],["顧部長立雄：降低。我剛剛講的就是說111年、110年比較多，111年以後只有3件，112年只有1件。"],["陳委員玉珍：那院長瞭解為什麼這個潛艦會在這裡浮起來嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：國防部還在瞭解這整個過程跟它實際上的原因。"],["顧部長立雄：跟委員報告，按照我們相關的情監偵手段，已經有掌握這個潛艦的動態，在中線以西……"],["陳委員玉珍：講慢一點、大聲一點，聽不清楚。"],["顧部長立雄：在中線以西以浮潛的方式來進行。因為涉及到一些我們情監偵的手段，我想細節的部分……"],["陳委員玉珍：我不是要知道偵查的手段，你知道原因嗎？根據我請教軍事專家的結論，他說臺灣海峽中線以西這個地方因為是淺灘，比較危險，所以潛艦經過那個地方大概都用浮航的方式來進行，這是我請教軍事專家的。"],["顧部長立雄：是，那個地方只有幾十米而已。"],["陳委員玉珍：比較淺啦！"],["顧部長立雄：幾十公尺而已。"],["陳委員玉珍：這是我們請教軍事專家的，如果確實是這樣子，大概也要把資訊公開，因為這個大概就不是怎樣非常的……好像是什麼兵凶戰危，不要弄到好像很緊張。","院長，請問您瞭解金門嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：我去過金門。"],["陳委員玉珍：去過金門幾趟？"],["卓院長榮泰：兩、三趟吧！"],["陳委員玉珍：兩趟啦！公開紀錄是有兩趟，我看到是有兩趟。我知道你也是民意代表出身，所以一定也是以民意為依歸，解決人民痛苦也是……大概你從以前開始擔任民意代表到現在擔任行政院院長……"],["卓院長榮泰：一樣的。"],["陳委員玉珍：我們看到媒體報導，您到過金門兩次，一次是2018年12月擔任行政院秘書長，陪同我們現在的賴總統，那時候的行政院長去看金門大橋嘛！"],["卓院長榮泰：是的。"],["陳委員玉珍：另外一次就是很早以前，2006年6月擔任總統府秘書長的時候，陪同我們陳水扁總統去前線看防務的整備。"],["卓院長榮泰：是。"],["陳委員玉珍：這兩次應該都還有印象嘛！"],["卓院長榮泰：都還有印象。"],["陳委員玉珍：有印象啦！那您看看喔，金門在民國81年以前實行戰地政務，11月7號以後解除戰地政務，比臺灣76年解除戒嚴晚了5年。您看從解除戰地政務到現在民主政治發展，開始全面性的建設。您知道這一段的這個時候金門跟臺灣……因為您現在貴為行政院院長，是一院之長、我們行政的最高首長，當然不是只關注到臺灣這個島，還包括我們金門地區。您看它跟臺灣其他縣市，這個歷史軌跡你瞭解嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：我一直很希望能夠再到金門看看金門那個很有特色的建築物，經過戰地政務解除之後，我相信它的社會風情有相當大的改變。"],["陳委員玉珍：是。"],["卓院長榮泰：人跟人之間會更緊密的接觸，而且產業、觀光也有跟以前不一樣的發展趨勢。"],["陳委員玉珍：戰地政務時期遺留下來一些歷史問題，不知道院長有沒有瞭解？"],["卓院長榮泰：那個也是一個歷史的記憶，我覺得那個保存下來，對金門來講就是一個資產。"],["陳委員玉珍：對，除了是記憶以外，當然是觀光資產，事實上還有幾樣跟人民的權利相關，我先讓您有一個概念。最重要在金門來講，長年不斷的陳情問題大概就是土地的問題，所以還地於民一直是非常重要的政策。後來軍方慢慢撤軍，所以軍方很多土地……早年軍方來以後占了很多土地，包括有些地方埋地雷，所以很多金門鄉親的土地受限制，他就不能進入營區，不能進去。像我們以前小時候掃墓的時候，只有掃墓的時候可以進去，阿兵哥幫我們開起來，讓我們走進去這樣子。現在慢慢撤軍，軍人從以前的十萬大軍到現在已經很少人了，現在很多營區就是還地於民，撤出來就空了，空了就還給民眾。之前我們在修離島建設條例的時候有規定，在民國109年以前大家可以把土地要回去，但是那時候還要大家花錢買回原來祖先留下來的土地，是到109年截止。但問題是國軍的撤軍不是一天撤完，它是慢慢、慢慢撤，到現在事實上還有一些營區慢慢在撤出當中。在109年以後撤出的這些營區也有百姓的土地，可是我們離島建設條例規定的時間已經到了，購回土地的時間是109年，後來就沒有這個法源依據了，現在民眾要怎麼辦呢？"],["顧部長立雄：跟委員報告一下，這個就是涉及到離島建設條例第九條。"],["陳委員玉珍：對，第九條。"],["顧部長立雄：所以我想委員應該都很清楚，它有一個公告期限。"],["陳委員玉珍：對、對、對。"],["顧部長立雄：如果在公告期限內就是可以申請以當年的公告地價來購回。"],["陳委員玉珍：沒錯、沒錯，前面的狀況都知道，軍方常常會回一個公文，比如說，去年我們還在使用，所以你沒有辦法申請購回，因為那還是屬於軍方在使用的營區。這幾年軍方從一些營區慢慢撤出了，百姓開始要求說我們的土地可以還給我們了，可是109年已經過了，我們國防部長是大律師，你看這個有沒有什麼不用修法的解決方式？"],["顧部長立雄：我……"],["陳委員玉珍：您知道我的意思嗎？法源是到109年，但是109年以後軍方才撤出土地，才開始讓民眾申請購回，在這之前申請購回的時候，軍方說，對不起！我們還在使用，你不能購回！即便已經解除戰地政務了，在金門還是這樣。"],["顧部長立雄：委員，我的理解好像是在103年國發會修法的時候，當時就已經檢討了沒有公用需求的這個……"],["陳委員玉珍：你再說一次，大聲一點，對不起！"],["顧部長立雄：在103年國發會立法修正離島條例第九條條文的時候，就已經檢討沒有公用需求的部分了……"],["陳委員玉珍：沒錯。"],["顧部長立雄：就已經都交出來了。"],["陳委員玉珍：事實上很多是現在慢慢撤，現在還有營區是慢慢地交出來，從109年到現在（113年）還是有這樣的情形，這個事情要怎麼處理？這一類的情形，您回去研究一下，國防部長，你是法律專家，像這個時間──109年已經過了，但是實質上軍方現在撤出的，這是第一點。","第二點，早期因為金門島內生活不易，很多鄉親到南洋去，我們叫做「落番」，現在這些旅居南洋的僑親，因為不瞭解資訊，所以錯過這些時間，有沒有什麼彌補的方法？有沒有什麼購回的權利？您瞭解嗎？不用規定到109年，但是他們在南洋可能慢慢地才收到訊息，就是旅居南洋的鄉親。"],["顧部長立雄：委員，我的瞭解好像是後來在110年的時候，國發會好像還是有再邀集金門跟連江縣政府，包括內政部、財政部國產署等單位研商，然後內政部認為離島建設條例第九條的購回規定，如果還要再修法延長放寬購回權，將使公地的產權會長期處於一個不確定的狀況……"],["陳委員玉珍：我知道、我知道，我也問過國產署這個問題，它說如果這樣子會有這個情形產生嘛！但是我說的不是全部的公地，我說的是至少針對軍方原來這些營區嘛！我有問過國產署這個問題，在109年之前我就問過了，他們說這樣會造成不確定性，開發上、土地上等各方面會有問題。遇到這個情形你們研究一下，今天也沒有辦法在這邊要到答案，但是也要想辦法思考民眾這個問題要怎麼解決。"],["卓院長榮泰：委員，您的意思是109年截止之後，軍方的土地才……"],["陳委員玉珍：對，軍方的土地有的……"],["卓院長榮泰：才離開。"],["陳委員玉珍：在之前民眾申請嘛，接著軍方現在撤了……"],["卓院長榮泰：109年之後民眾是不可能申請的。"],["陳委員玉珍：對，因為沒有法源依據。"],["卓院長榮泰：那時候才發生的事情。"],["陳委員玉珍：不，本來就是民眾的，是因為之前申請的時候，軍方說我們還在使用。理論上，如果在臺灣地區哪有這種事情？我們的土地就是我們的土地，還給你用？但是金門地方跟軍方關係比較好，一般軍方說怎樣，大家就是協商一下看怎麼樣，但現在法源依據就沒有了，想想看是不是怎麼樣修法來解決這樣的問題啦！這個你們回去研究一下。"],["顧部長立雄：跟委員報告，我想回去再瞭解一下，有沒有您講的109年之後才釋出的土地。"],["陳委員玉珍：對。就是在那時候申請……"],["顧部長立雄：針對這個部分，我來瞭解一下。"],["陳委員玉珍：對，您瞭解一下好不好？因為有接到不少這樣的陳情案。","另外一個就是金門在推動基礎建設的時候會用到私有地，但沒有足夠的補償金，所以金門有很多政府在推動公共設施的時候土地都沒有被補償的情況，原因是早年……院長，您瞭解金門的政治組織嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：現在當然是……"],["陳委員玉珍：以前啦，您瞭解臺灣省就是在管臺灣、澎湖嘛，那金門是歸福建省管，您知道吧？"],["卓院長榮泰：是，馬祖也是。"],["陳委員玉珍：我們福建省就管金門、馬祖還有淪陷的地區，早年因為有一個臺灣省，臺灣省轄下的地方政府會有一個公共設施徵收的補償金，但因為我們不是臺灣省，我們是福建省，我的身分證到現在也是福建省，我是中華民國福建省金門縣人，所以我們做那些縣道什麼的，都是我們自己出錢，包括到現在也是，到了財劃法……這個後面還會再跟您講，比如早年臺灣省不是管那個「水」嗎？自來水的「水」、用水的「水」，那臺灣省虛級化以後，這些都全部歸給中央去管，您瞭解嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：是。"],["陳委員玉珍：那金門以前就不是臺灣省，臺灣省沒有以後，你知道歸誰管嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：是不是縣政府管？"],["陳委員玉珍：對，歸金門縣政府管，不是只有水，以前電也是啊，以前我們是金電，金門電力公司，後來當然歸給台電，水現在是金門自來水廠自己管，還有農林漁牧啦，像臺灣有林務局，臺灣省的，後來變成中央，反正就農林漁牧我們全部都自己管。我們金門是一個小國家，港口也是金門縣港務處管，還有自來水、以前的電，醫院以前有金門醫院，現在問題發生了，就是這些重大建設都需要很多經費，對吧？臺灣省虛級化以後，這個不就中央去管了嗎？可是我們金門就自己管，這是中央的事情，對吧？用水在臺灣島是中央的事情啊，在金門也應該是中央的事吧？"],["卓院長榮泰：像在臺北市，也是臺北市在管。"],["陳委員玉珍：臺北市是直轄市啊！金門是偏遠地區，對不對？所以應該歸給中央管，對不對？好，沒關係，我們幫忙管也就罷了，我們還幫忙墊錢，因為要做一些建設嘛，下面請經濟部和財政部部長，我們要幫忙墊錢做一些水的設施，設施做了以後，因為金門縣沒有錢嘛，我們就跟誰借錢？跟院長左邊那一位借錢，跟財政部借錢，因為這是經濟部水利署要做的事嘛，那是水利署要出錢，但是水利署說，不然你金門縣先做啦，做了以後我們再把錢還給你，金門縣政府說，沒有錢啊，沒有錢怎麼辦呢？水利署說沒有錢就跟財政部借啊，我們就跟財政部借錢，財政部，我們是不是跟你借的錢？"],["莊部長翠雲：是，地方建設基金。"],["陳委員玉珍：用財政部地方建設基金。"],["莊部長翠雲：跟基金借的。"],["陳委員玉珍：我們這個錢是幫經濟部借的，不是幫金門縣，因為水是中央的事務嘛，我們幫經濟部借了這個錢，代墊啦！地方幫中央代墊，跟財政部借錢，借了錢以後本來就慢慢還，我們還，經濟部給我們，我們再還回去，每一年都這樣在run，對不對？兩位部長知道嗎？我們以前是這樣在run嘛，對不對？"],["莊部長翠雲：對，金門縣是跟地方建設基金借了10億。"],["陳委員玉珍：貸款啦！"],["莊部長翠雲：對，貸款10億，但是5年的借款期限……"],["陳委員玉珍：謝謝，我讓院長瞭解一下現在的情形。好，現在他們說這個地方建設基金要解編了，就是要結束，對不對？"],["莊部長翠雲：已經結束了。"],["陳委員玉珍：你們就說金門縣你欠的錢趕快還來，我們說好，那我們就說經濟部趕快把錢拿過來，我們趕快還給財政部，可是經濟部好像說沒有錢欸，那我們為什麼要被卡在中間？我們是媳婦，是不是？院長，我們墊錢以後，你右邊那個不還錢給左邊那個，也不給我們，那財政部說要扣我們的什麼統籌分配款喔？聽說是要扣統籌分配款。"],["莊部長翠雲：跟委員說明……"],["陳委員玉珍：這是你應該處理，你左手那個不給錢啊，你右手那個要還給左手那個，院長，你要主持一下公道！怎麼處理呢？"],["卓院長榮泰：部長說明一下。"],["莊部長翠雲：跟……"],["陳委員玉珍：我是問院長啦，因為他才有決定權，你也教不了經濟部……"],["卓院長榮泰：先讓部長說明一下，這個過程部長瞭解……"],["陳委員玉珍：他瞭解，我跟他在財政委員會提過了。"],["莊部長翠雲：對，金門縣政府是跟地方建設基金借錢，借款期限是5年，在今年113年1月已經到期，那就應該還嘛！"],["陳委員玉珍：是。"],["莊部長翠雲：目前來說，當時借十億，還有兩億四……"],["陳委員玉珍：還有兩億四沒有還嘛！"],["莊部長翠雲：還有兩億四千萬。"],["陳委員玉珍：那我們現在說，經濟部拜託錢來！要還給財政部。經濟部怎麼說？兩億四。我又不是行政院長，對吧！這是你們中央政府自己的事情，經濟部什麼時候要還錢？"],["郭部長智輝：這件事情我不清楚，我回去……"],["陳委員玉珍：你不瞭解喔？"],["郭部長智輝：我回去瞭解一下再跟陳委員報告。"],["陳委員玉珍：你瞭解一下，是不是還過來，不然財政部說要扣我們的什麼統籌分配款，他剛剛有跟我講了。"],["卓院長榮泰：報告委員，財政部相當清楚這樣的錢的流向，是不是請財政部再說明？"],["陳委員玉珍：他剛剛有跟我講了，因為我問的問題很多……"],["卓院長榮泰：對，重點要讓他說出來。"],["陳委員玉珍：我還會再問他，但是院長……"],["卓院長榮泰：重點要讓他說出來。"],["莊部長翠雲：委員，因為其實這是兩件事情，當然經濟部當時有承諾說要給予這個水價……"],["陳委員玉珍：他承諾的喔！"],["莊部長翠雲：水價的差價補貼。"],["陳委員玉珍：對。"],["莊部長翠雲：也給了大概有70%，大概在111年已經給金門縣政府……"],["陳委員玉珍：是，差價補貼嘛！重點是……"],["莊部長翠雲：對，已經有四億多了，目前還有30%沒有給，所以這個部分……可是跟地方建設基金借的錢，我們是依照借款契約來領錢。"],["陳委員玉珍：我知道，應該還你們啦！"],["莊部長翠雲：所以是……"],["陳委員玉珍：可是這是經濟部的事情，你不要在我面前左手右手自己打架。院長，你回去想要怎麼處理。這個本來是你們的事情，我們是幫你們做而已，對吧？我們是幫你做，水不就是你們的事情嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：這樣聽起來，我聽懂了，這是兩筆錢啦！"],["莊部長翠雲：對，兩件事。"],["卓院長榮泰：我聽懂了，這是兩筆錢啦！"],["陳委員玉珍：沒有啦！我跟你講，回歸到底這個水的事情是歸誰管，歸我金門縣政府出錢喔？"],["卓院長榮泰：這個就經濟部、財政部，這是兩筆錢，這不是金門水庫的。"],["陳委員玉珍：報告院長，不要講這個錢，光這個工我們幫你做了耶！"],["卓院長榮泰：照財政部講這是兩筆錢，歸地方建設基金的，還有就是水價補貼的，這是兩筆錢，所以錢應該分開算。"],["陳委員玉珍：是，我們就用那個補貼的錢來還給他嘛！不然你叫我們去……因為本來這個錢就是……"],["卓院長榮泰：這個沒有辦法要第三人去……移過來。"],["陳委員玉珍：院長，你回去瞭解清楚，你回到癥結點，回到最高的癥結就是這個事情應該歸誰管？這些錢應該誰出？當初經濟部承諾他會給，我們先墊，我們也沒錢跟財政部借。"],["卓院長榮泰：財政部管理的基金有財政部管理基金的範圍……"],["陳委員玉珍：我知道。"],["卓院長榮泰：經濟部有經濟部補助的政策。"],["陳委員玉珍：是啦！你站在中間嘛！你站在這裡看，左右都是你管的，你回去想想辦法。"],["卓院長榮泰：我必須站在中間，兩邊才能平衡。"],["陳委員玉珍：是，但我們不應該站在裡頭，那是你們中央的事情啊！水干我們……水是你們的事情，你聽懂了沒？"],["卓院長榮泰：財政部部長再跟委員好好清楚地講一下這個過程……"],["陳委員玉珍：院長，我知道他在說什麼，他說：該還錢的要還啦！你再去跟經濟部要啦！他已經跟我說了，經濟部在這邊。"],["卓院長榮泰：他不會這麼說。他現在不是這麼說，他是說……"],["陳委員玉珍：他是這樣跟我講啦！"],["卓院長榮泰：應該不是這麼說……"],["陳委員玉珍：要還嘛！叫我去跟經濟部講。那沒關係，我也不要在這裡跟你爭執，因為我還有好多問題，你去瞭解一下，我們回到最源頭、最源頭。"],["卓院長榮泰：好。"],["陳委員玉珍：這個事情歸誰？歸中央嘛！水幹嘛歸我金門縣政府要去出錢做這些事情！","不過我要跟您講一下，倒是金門的水從2018年以後開始從大陸接水，現在我們一天大概用水是兩萬噸，大概有70%，一萬三千、一萬四千噸是從大陸來的，就是大陸的水供給我們，然後我們付錢給他們，是原水，我們再經過一些處理。但是我們依賴大陸用水的程度事實上很深，這5年來也的確因為大陸有供水，所以讓我們免於乾旱。但是我看兩岸局勢現在這麼緊張，對不對？所以我建議經濟部也要去盤點我們自有的水資源，不管是造水或是各方面要去想一下，不然真的……當然我覺得大陸是不會這樣對我們啦！但是萬一真的水龍頭關起來3天，大概金門也不用做什麼事了。所以還是要去盤點相關水資源建設的情形，院長，這個你是不是要帶回去研究一下？"],["卓院長榮泰：好，中國跟臺灣兩邊雖然社會制度不同，對於主權的意見還是分歧，但是對於人民的生活，不應該把它當作一個籌碼來使用……"],["陳委員玉珍：對。"],["卓院長榮泰：所以我們希望善意地對待……"],["陳委員玉珍：你希望它的水還是源源不絕啦！我也跟你一樣希望。"],["卓院長榮泰：兩岸領導人應該有機會、有善意去面對如何改善人民的生活……"],["陳委員玉珍：我的意思是說現在……"],["卓院長榮泰：確保區域的和平。"],["陳委員玉珍：是，這是當然，民生還是優先。"],["卓院長榮泰：是。"],["陳委員玉珍：水的這個問題你要幫我們想啊！這幾年真的如果沒有大陸供水，金門已經乾旱很嚴重了，每一天大概有七成的水是來自大陸，所以水資源的建設方面可能也要去盤點一下，好嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：好。"],["陳委員玉珍：接著，經濟方面，我們中央政府這幾年核定的相關建設，我先跟你講一下小三通陸客這個部分，為什麼談到金門大部分都會談到兩岸？從民國大概九十幾年到一百多年，這十幾年來不管是哪一位總統，從陳水扁總統、馬英九總統到蔡英文總統任內，中央所核定的相關建設計畫裡頭，金門的定位一直是兩岸的和平島。我先給你簡介一下小三通以後陸客的相關狀況，讓你知道陸客沒有到金門來觀光，對金門的產業影響有多大，現在真的是很慘。民國100年到111年間，小三通入出境的狀況是本席所示的這樣，2019年之後有疫情，疫情前最高一年是200萬人次，其中大陸客在金門創造的產值一年總共最少20億，所以現在陸客蒸發，我們金門一年就損失20億，各行各業其實都滿慘的，因為沒有觀光客。加上最近臺海局勢緊張，臺灣的客人也會覺得好像會危險，所以去的人就相對減少。因此交通部對於金門觀光的相關幫助一定要加強一點，這是第一個。","第二個是內政部方面，金門有國家公園，相關的民宿業者和小賣店在疫情期間很慘，現在沒有開放陸客觀光，又很慘，等於整個收入都非常低，所以我們當初在金門和金門國家公園相關人員開了一個會，討論是不是這個部分要比照疫情期間，看觀光客來多少，不是很多錢啦，大概幾百萬吧？有關國家公園的部分是不是可以比照減免租金，這已經送到內政部，內政部也核了，下一個單位是財政部。內政部已經核了嘛！院長這邊是不是儘快幫我們核一下？內政部應該可以講一下，內政部瞭解這個事情吧？"],["卓院長榮泰：等一下請內政部說明一下。但委員剛剛那個標題是對的──「陸客不來」，他是主動不來，不是被動不能來。"],["陳委員玉珍：我知道，我等一下跟你講為什麼，大家想想看怎麼解決。"],["劉部長世芳：謝謝陳委員，您剛剛提到金門國家公園裡面的一些招租戶租金減免的部分……"],["陳委員玉珍：對！"],["劉部長世芳：我們現在會依據財政部所說的，就是它原來的租賃貸款裡面如果有約定減租條款或是按照法制作業的話，就可以訂定減免的規定。"],["陳委員玉珍：你們想辦法啦！這個部分請院長也去想辦法，現在各行各業實在都很慘，至少政府可以做的是國家公園這個部分可以幫忙。","現在來講為什麼陸客不來。就是你也知道，我也不希望這個事情發生在金門，但它就是發生了，也很不幸，就是0214的事件──有2個大陸漁民因為船隻翻覆，之後大體就留在金門。現在這個事情就一直沒解決，不瞞您說，我去問得很清楚，因為馬祖不是有開放踩線團，很快就要開放了。會來啦！下去就來了，對不對？"],["卓院長榮泰：會來，下次來。"],["陳委員玉珍：對，肯定。然後我剛剛去參加海峽論壇，有去請教相關事宜，我說我是金門立委，我是希望金門開放觀光，但就因為0214的事情沒有解決。我也不希望這兩件事情掛在一起，說真的，我超不希望當初這件事情為什麼要發生在金門，金門和大陸的關係一直相當良好，發生這個事情我們大家也很遺憾，但就是沒有解決。另外還包括我們有一個金門鄉親迷航到大陸去，那天也說可以帶家屬去看，所以我也會找時間過去。但現在是這樣子，這件事情沒有解決，我們金門就沒有辦法開放陸客觀光。因為也127天了，之前我在質詢前任陳建仁院長的時候，陳院長是說，對於發生溺斃事件感到遺憾，臺灣是民主法治國家，檢察官依證據偵查辦理後才能知道真相，該道歉就道歉，該賠償就賠償。卓院長，這是陳建仁院長說的，你們的立場是一樣的嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：這是一件重大的事件，陳院長已經做過這樣的指示，我認為海委會也是朝這個方向在做很多的溝通，即使到現在或許還存在一些問題，但我深刻地不希望因為個案的事件影響到未來雙方的繼續交流和發展。"],["陳委員玉珍：很多事情就是小事情的積累，小事情沒有解決，就會造成互相認為你怎樣、我怎樣、你怎樣、我怎樣，結果惡意螺旋就上來了。所以我們要慢慢你沒有怎樣、我沒有怎樣、你是好的、我是好的……"],["卓院長榮泰：海委會一直在努力促進雙方的距離……"],["陳委員玉珍：我知道、我知道，海委會的努力我也知道，現在就是您的態度和陳院長是一樣的，那我想請問您右邊這一位，部長，現在已經127天了，你還要調查多久？"],["鄭部長銘謙：跟委員報告，這個案件目前就是在送鑑定、在釐清死因……"],["陳委員玉珍：我知道！你上一任部長我就問他了，他就說在送鑑定，現在已經……"],["鄭部長銘謙：現在還在鑑定中。"],["陳委員玉珍：請問還要鑑定多久？"],["鄭部長銘謙：我們是希望鑑定單位能夠儘速。"],["陳委員玉珍：儘速是多久？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這部分因為是專家鑑定，我也沒辦法……"],["陳委員玉珍：你告訴我已經鑑定多久了？你鑑定什麼我告訴你，你知道鑑定什麼嗎？"],["鄭部長銘謙：鑑定肇事原因跟釐清……"],["陳委員玉珍：鑑定就是說，這兩個船碰撞嘛！對不對？這樣碰撞，不管是什麼原因碰撞，然後它翻覆，去鑑定這個事情，對不對？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這部分是由金門地檢的檢察官偵辦中……"],["陳委員玉珍：我知道、我知道，那已經鑑定……"],["鄭部長銘謙：就是由檢察官來委託……"],["陳委員玉珍：從事情發生到現在，從我開始瞭解送專家鑑定，到現在好幾個月了耶！"],["卓院長榮泰：四個月。"],["陳委員玉珍：四個月，院長都說了，要鑑定多久啊？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這部分我們要尊重檢察官跟……"],["陳委員玉珍：沒錯，我也尊重，問題這是重大矚目案件，這涉及公益案件啊！總是不能鑑定到明年、後年、再後年吧！鑑定到下一任總統嗎？"],["鄭部長銘謙：我想檢察官這部分他會依法來處理，那……"],["陳委員玉珍：我知道會依法處理啦！"],["鄭部長銘謙：鑑定機關這部分會妥為鑑定……"],["陳委員玉珍：即便在法院鑑定，也是有一個時間的吧？一個月、兩個月、三個月、五個月，還是半年、還是兩年？你總要有一個時間吧！我不相信這種鑑定機關給的時間是……你們給他的時間是永無止限的啊！"],["鄭部長銘謙：因為這……"],["陳委員玉珍：多久？那你瞭解一下好嗎？"],["鄭部長銘謙：好。"],["陳委員玉珍：已經鑑定多久了，連院長都說已經四個月，而且它還影響到整個金門的發展，鑑定結果怎麼樣我們不會去那個嘛！對不對？因為專家會去鑑定，總不能鑑定三年、五年吧！太久了啦！部長。"],["鄭部長銘謙：這個意見我們會轉達給……"],["陳委員玉珍：不是轉達嘛！院長，您是不是也覺得太久了？"],["卓院長榮泰：這個能夠釐清事實……"],["陳委員玉珍：釐清事實當然啊！有永無止境的釐清事實嗎？鑑定五年嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：海事的鑑定是不是有它的複雜性，而且專家學者……"],["陳委員玉珍：就一條船碰到另外一條船，我們律師在那裡，大律師，我們國防部長，一般你們的鑑定有要鑑定到三年、五年的嗎？專業律師在那裡，一般鑑定要那麼久嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：我們就是讓……"],["陳委員玉珍：我也尊重專家鑑定，但是我不相信……"],["鄭部長銘謙：我們尊重專家鑑定……"],["陳委員玉珍：因為它影響到整個……因為這件事情沒有一個解決，金門……我也不願意，我跟你們說，我也不願意這樣子，對吧？"],["鄭部長銘謙：當然我們也是希望鑑定能夠……"],["陳委員玉珍：大律師，我們的國防部長，一般鑑定可以進入到已經三個月，四個月了，是要鑑定多久呢？以你的專家經驗，你打過無數官司。"],["顧部長立雄：跟委員報告兩點，第一點，個案的鑑定長短與否，要看這個案子它留存的相關證據，然後它的情況，然後他們要判斷的這些個別的事……"],["陳委員玉珍：就是一條船碰到另外一條船，那兩條船現在都在金門。"],["顧部長立雄：我想我沒有辦法去講說一定要鑑定多久……"],["陳委員玉珍：你打官司的經驗有沒有鑑定五年的，你告訴我，或是三年的，你的經驗。"],["顧部長立雄：就我個人過去擔任律師的經驗，應該不至於會鑑定這麼久，這是第一點。第二點，個案的偵辦……"],["陳委員玉珍：要鑑定一年嗎？也不用吧？"],["顧部長立雄：個案的偵辦一定要尊重，一定要尊重……"],["陳委員玉珍：這點我也尊重，我的意思是說，我問的問題每次都是現在進度怎麼樣，他都說在鑑定，好幾個月了，大律師，對不起，部長，謝謝您的寶貴經驗。沒有那麼久的啦！拜託，加快速度，因為這是涉及重大公益、重大的金門發展。院長，所以也請您……我們不是要去影響它到底要怎麼結果嘛！總是效率要好一點。"],["卓院長榮泰：跟委員報告，會後我請部長去瞭解一下鑑定到目前的程度，以及未來它可能的時間，抓出一個時間點，我們共同來往那個時間點努力。"],["陳委員玉珍：好。院長，我們下去就要修財政收支劃分法，我想您自己也在說這個部分的話，你們院有要提出院版嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：我們院版就是現在的版本。"],["陳委員玉珍：你們不提出新的院版嘛？"],["卓院長榮泰：我們就照這個來把它做一些更合理的討論，是可以的，但是希望照這個討論……"],["陳委員玉珍：合理的討論是可以？好。我們離島有三個縣市，以前有300億的離島建設基金，您知道嘛！"],["卓院長榮泰：是。"],["陳委員玉珍：以前是說這個就一直用、一直用、可以用，那現在你們中央的政策變成是用多少補多少，現在一年只剩下9億給三個縣市來分，你知道嗎？以110年來講，澎湖10萬的人，他們分了83億，我們金門14萬人，只分了42億，這樣有公平嗎？院長，這樣有公平嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：我還是會把它補……"],["陳委員玉珍：不是，我先問你啦……"],["卓院長榮泰：而且計算方式……"],["陳委員玉珍：不是，我先問你，這樣有沒有公平啦？"],["莊部長翠雲：跟委員報告，有關財政收支劃分法，我們對於離島的部分，第一個，菸酒稅的部分，我們都沒有把它加入到基準財政收入額裡面……"],["陳委員玉珍：菸酒稅，我們……因為時間到了，我們回財政……"],["莊部長翠雲：然後土地面積都加倍計算。"],["陳委員玉珍：我知道，我們回財政委員會繼續講啦！"],["莊部長翠雲：是。"],["卓院長榮泰：新的計算方式，這個再跟委員報告，謝謝。"],["陳委員玉珍：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝陳玉珍委員的質詢、謝謝卓院長的備詢。","接下來我們請登記第56位陳菁徽委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":200,"meet_id":"院會-11-1-18","speakers":["韓國瑜","江啟臣","廖偉翔","林楚茵","陳超明","王世堅","李彥秀","陳雪生","蔡易餘","林岱樺","林沛祥","牛煦庭","何欣純","陳玉珍","陳菁徽"],"page_start":105,"meetingDate":["2024-06-18"],"gazette_id":"1135701","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1135701_00004","1135701_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期第18次會議紀錄","content":"施政質詢\n對行政院院長報告施政方針繼續質詢─ 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獎金1萬,121年是通報三件獎金3萬。"},{"start":74.076,"end":103.32,"text":"在之前的比較多,那我手上還沒有一個數字,那如果會後有...那您看部長,那您看這個拍下這些公務船啊、科研船啊,這個這幾年有沒有增加這個趨勢?通報的這個趨勢?沒有,反而降低。反而降低齁?我剛剛講就是說111年,111年比較多,111年以後只有三屆,112年只有一屆。那院長您了解說為什麼這個前件會在這裡浮起來呢?院長。"},{"start":106.395,"end":121.268,"text":"請國防部還在瞭解這整個過程跟他實際上的為什麼這個原因?跟委員報告,我們按照我們相關的情節手段已經有掌握相關的這個潛艦的動態,然後在中線以西,以弧線的方向。講慢一點大聲一點聽不清楚。"},{"start":121.607,"end":146.61,"text":"在中線乙溪以浮潛的方式來進行,那相關其他,我們因為涉及到一些我們今天手段,我想,細節的部分……我們知道偵查手段,你知道原因嗎?根據我請教這個軍事專家的結論,他是這樣說,他說這個臺灣海峽這個中線乙溪這個地方因為是潛灘,比較危險,所以這個潛艦經過那個地方大概都用浮航的方式來進行。"},{"start":148.052,"end":174.322,"text":"這是我請教軍事專家的。是,那個地方相當的在只有幾十米而已。啊?比較淺啊?幾十公尺而已。所以如果,如果這是我們請教軍事專家齁,如果確實這樣子大概也要把資訊公開,因為這個大概有,就不是怎樣的說,非常的好像是什麼兵凶戰危啊,不要弄到這麼好像很緊張齁。那院長,請問您了解金門嗎?我去過金門。去過金門幾趟?"},{"start":178.334,"end":205.467,"text":"兩三趟吧兩趟啦我公開記錄是有兩趟我看到是有兩趟因為我知道您甚至也是民意代表出身嘛所以一定也是以這個民意民意為依歸也解決人民痛苦也是大概你從以前開始擔任民意代表一樣的好到現在擔任這個行政院長我們看到媒體報導您到金門過兩次了一次是2018年的12月擔任行政院的秘書長陪同我們現在的賴總統那時候的行政院長去看"},{"start":208.428,"end":215.171,"text":"另外一次是很早以前2006年6月當任總統府秘書長的時候陪同陳水扁總統去前線看防務的整備這兩次應該都還有印象"},{"start":223.767,"end":247.942,"text":"有印象,那您看看金門之前是實行這個戰地政務,在民國81年以前實行戰地政務,11月7日又解除戰地政務,比台灣解除戒嚴室76年晚了5年。那您看從解除戰地政務到現在這個民主政治這個發展,那開始全面性的建設。您知道這一段的這個時候金門跟台灣,因為您現在貴為行政院長不是"},{"start":249.019,"end":250.801,"text":"您看這個跟台灣其他縣市這個歷史軌跡你有了解嗎?"},{"start":261.471,"end":284.031,"text":"我一直很希望能夠再到金門去,看看金門那個很有特色的建築物。以及經過戰地政務解除之後,我覺得它的社會風情有相當大的改變。人跟人之間可以更緊密的接觸,而且產業、觀光也有跟以前不一樣的發展的趨勢。戰地政務時期遺留下一些歷史問題,不知道院長有沒有了解?"},{"start":284.571,"end":298.561,"text":"那個也是一個歷史的記憶,我覺得那個保存下來對金門來講就是一個資產。對,除了是記憶以外當然是觀光資產。事實上還有幾樣是跟人民權利有相關的。我先讓您先有一個概念。最重要在金門來講,長年不斷的陳情問題大概就是土地的問題。"},{"start":302.364,"end":302.564,"text":"﹚陳玉珍﹚陳玉珍"},{"start":328.715,"end":328.875,"text":"韓國109年以前"},{"start":344.008,"end":367.194,"text":"但是那時候還要大家花錢買回原來祖先留下來的土地那是到109年以前那截止但是問題是國軍的這個撤軍不是一天撤完他是慢慢慢慢撤到現在事實上還有慢慢有一些營區慢慢在撤出當中那請問如果在109年以後撤出了這些營區那也有百姓的土地可是因為我們離島建制條約的時間已經到了購回土地的時間是109年後來就沒有這個法源依據了"},{"start":373.195,"end":391.227,"text":"那現在民眾要怎麼辦呢?跟委員報告一下,這個就是涉及到那個離島建設條例的第九條。對對,第九條。所以我想委員應該都很清楚,它是有一個公告期限。對對對。如果在公告期限內就是可以申請以當年的公告地價來購買。"},{"start":392.128,"end":418.067,"text":"沒錯沒錯那當初那個軍方說這前面都知道齁就是軍方說因為他常回一個公文比如說現在還在使用比如說去年我們還在使用所以你沒有辦法申請購回因為還是屬於軍方在使用的營區那這幾年軍方有一些營區也慢慢撤出了那百姓開始要求說那我們的土地可以還給我們的那可是109年已經過了那不然我們國防部長你是大律師你看這個有沒有什麼不用修法的解決方式"},{"start":420.414,"end":435.571,"text":"您知道我的意思嗎?就是法源是到109年但是土地是在109年軍方才撤出才開始讓民眾申請購回那在這之前購回的時候申請的時候軍方說對不起我們還在使用你不能購回"},{"start":438.466,"end":450.665,"text":"委員我的理解好像是在103年國安會修法的時候,當時就已經檢討了沒有公用需求的這一個你再說一次,大聲一點就行"},{"start":451.755,"end":478.421,"text":"在103年國安會立法修正離島條例第9條條文的時候就已經檢討就是說沒有公用需求的部分就已經都交出來了那事實上是很多現在是慢慢測現在還有營區是有慢慢的交出來在109年到現在113年還是有這樣的情形這個事情要怎麼處理這一類的情形您回去研究一下國安部長也是法律專家像這個時間109年已經過了"},{"start":481.502,"end":508.287,"text":"但是事實上軍方現在撤出的這是第一點那第二點還有早期因為基本上有很多島內生活很多到南洋去我們叫做羅歡那現在這些鄉親旅居南洋的這個僑親資訊不了解所以錯過這些時間有沒有什麼彌補的方法有沒有什麼購回的權利您了解嗎比如我們歸定到109年但是他們在南洋可能慢慢的才收到訊息"},{"start":509.207,"end":531.174,"text":"委員我的了解好像是後來在110年的時候那個國安會好像還是有在邀請金門跟連江縣政府包括其他內政部啊財政部國產署單位研商然後內政部的有認為就是說離島建設條例的第九條的過回規定呢"},{"start":531.374,"end":537.18,"text":"我知道我知道我也問過國產署這個問題他說如果這樣子也會有這個情形產生嘛但是我說的不是全部的工地我說的是至少針對軍方原來這些營區嘛我也問過"},{"start":553.557,"end":580.08,"text":"那個就是國產署這個問題以前我也問過109年之前我就問過了他說這樣會到不確定性那開發上土地上有很多各方面的那如果遇到這個情形你們研究一下今天也沒有辦法這邊要到答案但是也要想辦法這個問題民眾這個問題要怎麼解決啦委員其實109年截止之後軍方土地才做出對軍方土地才離開在之前民眾申請嘛那接著軍方現在撤了109年之後民眾是不可能申請的"},{"start":580.96,"end":605.827,"text":"對,因為沒有法源依據本來就是民眾的是因為那時候之前申請的時候軍方說我們還在使用還在使用那理論上如果在台灣地區哪有這種事情我們的土地就是我們的土地還可以用金門地方跟軍方關係比較好一般軍方說怎樣好大家就是協商一下看怎麼樣但是現在法源依據就沒有了想要看是不是怎麼樣來修法來解決這樣的問題"},{"start":607.948,"end":635.75,"text":"這個你們回去研究一下,這個是我跟委員報告我想回去再瞭解一下有沒有您講的109年之後才釋出的這一個就是在那時候申請的這一個部分對您瞭解一下好不好因為有接到不少這樣的陳情案另外一個還有金門這個土地在推動基礎建設的時候會用到私有地那沒有足夠的補償金所以金門很多政府就是用公共設施的時候土地都沒有被補償那原因"},{"start":637.671,"end":660.768,"text":"早年,院長您了解金門的這個政治組織嗎?您了解嗎?現在當然是以前啦,就是在這個,您了解台灣省對不對?就是管這個台灣澎湖嘛那金門是被福建省管,您知道吧?知道嗎?我們福建省就管金門麻竹,還有淪陷的地區管不到的,來"},{"start":661.288,"end":661.428,"text":"﹚陳玉珍﹚"},{"start":688.956,"end":711.464,"text":"包括到現在是到了採劃法這個後面還會再跟您講比如說早年因為台灣省那他不管那個水嗎那個自來水的水用水的水他管水那台灣省那以後這些都全部歸給中央去管嗎您了解嗎那金門嗎金門以前就不是台灣省那這個台灣省也沒有以後你知道歸誰管嗎你知道歸誰管嗎在金門"},{"start":716.738,"end":741.863,"text":"是不是縣政府管?對,歸金門縣政府管。包括不是只有水,以前電也是。以前我們是金電,金門電力公司,後來當然歸給台電,水現在是金門自來水廠自己管。還有這個包括農林漁牧,像台灣有這個什麼林務局,台灣省的嘛,後來變成中央,反正就農林漁牧,我們全部都自己管。我們金門是一個小國家,"},{"start":742.583,"end":743.003,"text":"﹚陳玉珍﹚陳玉珍"},{"start":767.878,"end":768.278,"text":"﹚陳玉珍﹚陳玉珍﹚"},{"start":787.188,"end":787.848,"text":"﹚陳玉珍﹚陳玉珍﹚陳玉珍"},{"start":808.256,"end":824.547,"text":"財政部借錢,那因為我們是說這個經濟部要做的是水利署要做嘛齁,那是水利署要出錢,所以說啊不然你金門先生你先做啦齁,做了以後我們錢還給你,他說沒有錢啊,沒有錢怎麼辦啊,沒有錢跟財政部借啊,我們就跟財政部借錢。財政部我們是不是跟你借的錢?"},{"start":826.509,"end":827.49,"text":"﹚陳玉珍﹚陳玉珍﹚"},{"start":851.072,"end":857.659,"text":"金門縣是跟我地方建設基金借了10億來謝謝我讓院長了解一下我讓院長了解現在的情形好那現在這個地方建設基金他們說要結編了嘛就是要結束對不對"},{"start":868.53,"end":869.21,"text":"已經結束了。"},{"start":892.362,"end":894.525,"text":"跟委員說明 跟委員說明 跟委員說明"},{"start":912.325,"end":923.31,"text":"對,金門縣政府是跟地方建設基金借錢,那借款期限是5年,那在今年的113年1月已經到期了,那就應該把它還嘛,那目前來說應該還這次對,還有兩億是沒有還嘛,那我們現在跟說經濟部拜託錢來,要還給財政部,那為什麼經濟部怎麼說兩億是?"},{"start":935.325,"end":951.148,"text":"我不是行政院長對不對?這是你們自己中央政府的事情。經濟部什麼時候要換監?你不了解齁?你了解一下喔?是不是反過來?不然這個財政部說要扣我們的什麼統籌分配款。財政部剛剛有跟我講了,因為我問的問題很多,我還會跟他再問,但是院長,"},{"start":962.887,"end":978.442,"text":"委員因為其實這是兩件事情當然經濟部要當時有承諾說要給予這個水價的一個差價補貼嘛那也給了大概有70%大概在111年已經給金門縣政府差價補貼嘛重點是目前還有30還沒有給那所以這個部分"},{"start":985.269,"end":1001.481,"text":"可是跟地方建設基金借的錢,我們是依照借款。我知道我知道,應該還你們的,可是這是經濟部的事情,你不要在我面前左手右手自己打架,院長你回去想要怎麼處理。這個本來是你們的事情,我們是幫你做,對吧?我們是幫你做,這水不就是你們的事情嗎?我聽懂了,這兩筆錢。"},{"start":1003.743,"end":1014.473,"text":"沒有啦我跟你講回歸到底這個水的事情是歸誰管歸我金門縣政府出錢喔這個經濟部財政部這個兩筆錢來來再不要講不要講說我來報告院長再不要講這個錢光這個工我們幫你做欸照財政部講這是兩筆錢歸地方建設基金的還有就是水價補貼的是兩筆錢我們就用那個補貼的錢來還給他嘛"},{"start":1025.584,"end":1034.176,"text":"啊不然你叫我們去...因為本來這個錢就是...院長院長你回去了解清楚你回到癥結點齁回到最高的癥結點就是這個事情應該歸誰管這些錢應該誰出"},{"start":1038.075,"end":1057.517,"text":"當初經濟部承諾說他會給嘛,我們先電啦,我們也沒錢跟財政部借。我知道我知道。是啊,你站在中間嘛,你站在這裡看,左右都是你管的,你回去想想辦法。我必須站在中間兩邊才能平衡啦。是是是,但是我們不應該站在裡頭,那是你們重要的事情啊。"},{"start":1058.658,"end":1059.399,"text":"陳玉珍"},{"start":1073.857,"end":1091.937,"text":"他是這樣跟我講的,要還嘛,叫我去跟經營部講,那沒關係,我也不要在這裡跟你爭,因為我還有好多問題,你去了解一下,我要回到最源頭,最源頭,最源頭,這個事情歸誰?歸中央嘛,所以幹嘛歸我金門縣政府,要去出錢做這些事情。好,那不過我要跟你講一下齁,倒是齁,"},{"start":1093.158,"end":1093.298,"text":"陳玉珍"},{"start":1111.817,"end":1135.828,"text":"﹏﹏"},{"start":1135.928,"end":1135.948,"text":"好,這個..."},{"start":1152.476,"end":1174.342,"text":"中國跟臺灣兩邊這個雖然社會制度不同對於這個主權的意見還是分歧但是對人民的生活不應該把它當作一個籌碼來對對對所以我們希望善意的對待你希望要選還是源源不絕啦我也跟你一樣希望兩岸的領導人應該有機會有善意去面對好如何改善人民的社會保障的和平"},{"start":1175.862,"end":1194.002,"text":"﹗"},{"start":1195.109,"end":1220.803,"text":"經濟那個我們這個政府我們中央政府這幾年來吼就合定的這個有關的這個相關的這個建設我先跟你講一下小山通路課這個部分吼為什麼談到金門大分都會談到兩岸吼從民國大概90幾年到100多年這十幾年吶不管是哪一位總統吼從這個陳水扁總統呃馬英九總統到蔡英文總統任內吼中央所合定的這個相關的這個建設計畫裡頭金門的定位一直是"},{"start":1221.423,"end":1221.643,"text":"﹚陳玉珍"},{"start":1228.499,"end":1229.159,"text":"﹚陳玉珍﹚陳玉珍﹚陳玉珍"},{"start":1258.436,"end":1258.596,"text":"﹚陳玉珍"},{"start":1283.744,"end":1303.649,"text":"觀光的這個幫助,可能要加強一點,一定要加強一點,第一個。第二個,內政部方面我們有一些國家公園,我們要求一些民宿業者,或者這些旅店,就是一些小賣店,因為這個疫情其實很慘,現在沒有開放觀光客,沒有開放入客,又很慘。"},{"start":1304.469,"end":1331.313,"text":"等於是整個收入都非常低。所以我們當初在金門跟這個金門這個國家公園有開一個會討論就是說是不是這個部分按比照這個疫情期間看觀光客來多少大概大概總共大概不是很多錢幾百萬吧是不是這個部分比照來減降低這個減點租金有關國家公園的相關這部分這個部分已經送到我們內政部了吧內政部已經合了下一個的單位是財政部"},{"start":1332.094,"end":1338.74,"text":"內政部是已經和了嗎?那是不是院長這邊是盡快幫我們和一下?內政部應該可以講一下,內政部了解這個事情吧?"},{"start":1339.488,"end":1347.531,"text":"謝謝陳委員您剛所提到金門國家公園裡面的一些招租戶裡面想要租金減免的部分那我們現在就是會依據財政部所說的就是說他原來的租賃貸款裡面如果有約定減租條款或是按照法制作業的話就可以訂定減免的規定"},{"start":1365.558,"end":1379.581,"text":"您們想辦法啦齁,這一個部分請院長也是去想辦法啦齁,這個實在現在各行各業都很慘啦齁,那至少政府可以做的部分是國家公園這個部分可以幫忙啦齁,那你再想想看為什麼陸客不來齁,就是齁,你也知道我也是希望"},{"start":1380.851,"end":1405.586,"text":"我也不希望這個事情發生在金門,但這件事情就是發生了,也很不幸啦,就是0214的事件,就是金門當初那個兩個大陸漁民嘛,他不就是反腐,反腐了以後就大體就留在金門嘛,留在金門現在這個事情就一直沒解決,我不瞞您說,我也去問了很清楚啦,金門的沒有開放,連馬祖不是有開放彩線團,也很快會開放了,沒有會來啦,下去就來了,對很肯定,然後"},{"start":1409.109,"end":1432.384,"text":"我剛去參加海峽論壇,有去請教這個相關事宜。我說,馬祖,因為我是金門立委,我是要金門開放觀光。那要金門開放觀光,但是就是0214的事情沒有解決。我也不希望這件事情掛在一起。我說真的,我真的千不希望他們為什麼當初要這件事情發生在金門。金門跟大陸關係一直是相當的良好。那發生這個事情,我們大家也很遺憾,那就是沒有解決。"},{"start":1432.944,"end":1456.084,"text":"﹗"},{"start":1456.898,"end":1481.214,"text":"陳建林院長的時候那個陳院長是那時候他就說對於發生密閉事件感到遺憾臺灣是這下面都這些都陳院長講的臺灣是民主法治國家檢查關係證據偵查辦理後才能知道真相該道歉就道歉該賠償就賠償這個卓院長這是陳建林院長說您的立場是一樣的嗎"},{"start":1482.555,"end":1500.181,"text":"這是一件重大的事件陳院長已經做過這樣的指示我認為海委會也是朝這個方向在做很多的溝通那即使到現在或許還存在一些問題但是我深刻的不希望因為個案的事件影響到未來雙方的繼續的交流跟發展"},{"start":1500.621,"end":1501.662,"text":"部長現在已經127天了,你要調查多久?"},{"start":1529.199,"end":1553.166,"text":"跟委員報告齁,那這個案件目前就是在送鑑定。我知道,你上一任部長我就問他了,他就說在送鑑定。現在還在鑑定。請問還要鑑定多久?我們是有希望那個鑑定單位能夠禁訴。禁訴是多久?這部分因為設施專家鑑定,我也沒辦法。你告訴我已經鑑定多久了?你鑑定什麼我告訴你啊,你知道鑑定什麼嗎?"},{"start":1554.019,"end":1560.285,"text":"這部分是由那個金門地遣的檢察官偵查?我知道我知道,他已經鑑定100,從事情上那些,從我開始瞭解宋專家現在好幾個月的捏。"},{"start":1578.44,"end":1585.125,"text":"我想這個檢察官這部分他會依法來處理。我知道會應好處理。即便在法院鑑定也是有一個時間的吧。一個月、兩個月、三個月、五個月還是半年還是兩年。"},{"start":1609.351,"end":1631.409,"text":"總要有一個時間吧,我不相信這種鑑定機關給的時間是,你們給他的時間是永無止限的。多久?那你瞭解一下吧,已經鑑定多久了,連院長都說已經4個月,是不是未免,而且他還影響到整個金門的發展。鑑定結果怎麼樣,我們不會去那個嘛,對不對,專家會去鑑定,總不能鑑定3年5年吧。"},{"start":1634.564,"end":1661.513,"text":"這本我們這個意見我們會轉達給不是轉達啦 院長您是不是覺得也是太久了這個能夠釐清事實釐清事實當然啦有永無止境的釐清事實嗎?鎮定五年嗎?海事的鎮定是不是有它的複雜性?而且專家學者就一條船碰到我們律師在那裡一般那個大律師我們國防部長一般你們的鎮定要鎮定到三年五年了嗎?那個專業律師在那裡啊"},{"start":1662.642,"end":1663.489,"text":"一般今天要那麼久嗎?"},{"start":1667.266,"end":1694.251,"text":"我也尊重專家鑑定,但是我不想要這樣,因為這件事情沒有一個解決。我也不願意,我跟你們說,我也不願意這樣子。大律師,我們這個國防部長是這個,一般鑑定可以鑑定到已經三個月、四個月了。是要鑑定多久呢?你看你以你的這個專家經驗,你打破無數官室。跟委員報告兩點,第一點,"},{"start":1695.512,"end":1721.443,"text":"各案的鑑定長短與否要看這個案子他留存的相關的證據然後的情況然後他們要判斷的這些個別的事就是一條船碰到另外一條船這樣子所以我想我沒有辦法去講說你打官司經驗有沒有鑑定個五年的你告訴我三年你的經驗就我個人的"},{"start":1723.164,"end":1730.153,"text":"過去擔任律師的經驗應該不至於會鑑定這麼久。這是第一點。第二點呢,各案的偵辦一定要尊重。一定要尊重鑑定。"},{"start":1740.762,"end":1764.725,"text":"大律師,對不起部長,謝謝您的這個寶貴經驗,沒有那麼久的啦,拜託加快速度,這因為涉及重大公益,重大這個金門的這個發展。好,那這個院長,所以鄭欣也請您,我們不下去影響他到底要什麼結果嘛,總是效率要好一點。我會請部長去了解一下,鑑定到目前的程度,以及未來他可能的時間,抓出一個時間點,讓我們共同來往那個時間點處理。"},{"start":1765.706,"end":1792.049,"text":"好,那那個院長我們下去就要修這個財政收支劃分法嘛。我想您自己也在說這個部分的話,你們院裡要提出院版嗎?我們院版就是現在的版本。現在版就,因為你們不提出新的院版嘛齁。我們想照這個來把它做一些更合理的討論是可以的。合理的討論是可以,好。我們今天,我們離島有三個縣市,以前有300億的這個離島建設基金,您知道嘛。那現在?"},{"start":1792.91,"end":1812.875,"text":"議員長"},{"start":1813.305,"end":1813.425,"text":"謝謝陳醫生委員質詢"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}