{"error":false,"id":["154086"],"data":{"IVOD_ID":154086,"IVOD_URL":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154086","日期":"2024-06-18","會議資料":{"會議代碼":"院會-11-1-18","會議代碼:str":"第11屆第1會期第18次會議","屆":11,"會期":1,"會次":18,"臨時會會次":null,"種類":"院會","標題":"立法院第11屆第1會期第18次會議"},"影片種類":"Clip","開始時間":"2024-06-18T17:20:15+08:00","結束時間":"2024-06-18T17:51:19+08:00","影片長度":"00:31:04","支援功能":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/237480b52e5f529aee849c5df4a09cb884a337f76c37b5eac068960e09b3c1e89862157efe858d265ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳菁徽","委員發言時間":"17:20:15 - 17:51:19","會議時間":"2024-06-18T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"第11屆第1會期第18次會議（事由：一、對行政院院長報告施政方針繼續質詢。\n二、6月14日上午9時至10時為國是論壇時間。\n三、6月18日下午1時50分至2時30分為處理臨時提案時間。）","gazette":{"lineno":647,"blocks":[["陳委員菁徽：（17時20分）主席、各位官員。不好意思，我今天發生了緊急的聲帶發炎水腫的窘境，雖然我上臺前有吃藥打針，可是聲音還是沒有辦法恢復得很好，但是我有很多問題想要跟院長還有官員們討論，所以懇請韓院長允許我輔助使用葛如鈞委員協助開發的AI陳菁徽的聲音來進行質詢還有提問。"],["主席：請。"],["陳委員菁徽：謝謝，不好意思！本席認為假使未來有委員遇到相同的狀況，或者是身體上有其極限的委員，比如漸凍症的患者，這是未來可以供我們參考的應用。經過此次的質詢，也希望大家可以反思，是不是議事人員部分的工作，我們就交由AI來協助，或是現在醫護人員是潰堤的狀態，最基本的衛教工作也可以如此推進。當然，這是本席初次也是立法院首次的AI輔助質詢，一定會有非常多的不完美，等等我也會看情況協助官員們打斷我自己，以便回答，相信未來如果我們可以把這個技術再精進得更好，我相信立法院、行政院都可以率先來試辦、試行，這樣可以大大地減少現在很多議事人員、官員們overload的現象，很謝謝主席的允許。","接下來，我想請卓院長還有國發會主委。"],["主席：麻煩再請卓院長備詢，國發會請備詢。"],["陳委員菁徽：院長恭喜。"],["卓院長榮泰：陳委員好，你辛苦了，多保重！"],["陳委員菁徽：謝謝。"],["卓院長榮泰：隨時喝口茶。"],["陳委員菁徽（AI）：少子化是國安危機，這一個蔡前總統的定調，目前有沒有改變？而過去賴總統當行政院長時，主政並推出少子化計畫，但他的總統就職演說中竟一句話都沒有提到，您認為這代表總統跟行政院還有重視嗎？當初少子化對策計畫引用林萬億政委的報告說，少子女化對策有三個目標，確保嬰幼兒的照顧品質與健全成長，這個代表數據是幼童死亡率，我上次已經質詢過，蔡政府跳票，性別公平這個是很大的議題，有很多方方面面，但我們現在來檢討第三，提升生育率的部分。院長，您知不知道我們最新的生育率數字是多少？"],["卓院長榮泰：不到0.9%吧。"],["陳委員菁徽：好，我們等一下公布答案。"],["陳委員菁徽（AI）：當初國發會負責中央政府的人口發展統整，並且也花經費做預測系統，名字叫人口推估查詢系統，還把預測做到2070年，院長您用過嗎？您覺得這個系統準嗎？我也已經貼在旁邊，我知道您會說有很多因素，不過這個系統確實預測失準，你們說要找人口社會學家、專家討論，我想問你們有沒有公式在專門處理這件事？背後的參數是什麼？"],["卓院長榮泰：抱歉，這個網站我確實是沒有進去過，但如果存在很多問題，國發會應該要立刻地去查明而且改進。"],["陳委員菁徽：你現在看到2070年這樣子的數據，我們一年的新生兒只有7萬人，去年我們大概是13.5萬人。"],["卓院長榮泰：十三萬多。"],["陳委員菁徽：你有什麼感覺嗎？你覺得這個國發會開發的人口推估預測準確嗎？到2070年，我們是真的……"],["卓院長榮泰：在面對少子化的這個問題當中，我們努力了很多年，但確實成效不是那麼地明顯，雖然我們用很多0到6歲、0到22歲等等輔助的一些補助政策，但是最終就是要鼓勵年輕人敢婚敢生的這個過程當中，我們還要做很多、更多努力，我想國發會一定會用新的方向、新的思考來提出一個新的政策出來。"],["陳委員菁徽：好，我們先來公布答案，最左邊是我們國發會的網站，原本預測我們2023年、2024年的出生率，我們居然是預測0.95、1.05，我們來看一下。"],["陳委員菁徽（AI）：就是因為我去看了你們的出生率預測，我看了看覺得奇怪，有一點看不懂，左邊這張圖表是從民進黨政府執政之後的出生率，2016年到2022年是實際值，這是確定的，我們可以看到少子化對策的成效，其實應該是要檢討的，執政那麼多年，結果出生率是一節、一節掉。我們來細看每一年的數字，紅字的部分就是你們的預測值，就算你們連續6年走低之後，你們的預測值竟然在2023年開始回升，我實在是很好奇，為什麼可以這樣校正回歸？請問你，你們預測2023年是0.95，現在2023年的數字出來了嗎？"],["陳委員菁徽：是0.865啊！"],["卓院長榮泰：不到0.9。"],["陳委員菁徽：所以我們國家在2021年是全球最後一名，2022、2023是全球倒數第二名，至今都是一樣。韓國2022、2023是0.7，他們預測2024年是0.68，是他們自己喔！可是我們預測我們自己是1.05耶，這其中是有什麼自信嗎？還是貓膩嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：報告委員，這個預測值如果是呈現這個樣子，顯示當時的預測跟現在實際是失準的，對於這個部分政府應該做檢討，我們如果把它……"],["陳委員菁徽：而且你們應該回去修改一下吧！"],["卓院長榮泰：這不是修改……"],["陳委員菁徽：我是說修改預測值。"],["卓院長榮泰：我們現在是修改整個政策，讓它能夠往好的方向走，而不是只修改數字。我們在現在的數字上……"],["陳委員菁徽：我是說你們可不可以預測得不要這麼寬？我們來看下一個問題，你們看2070年的預測出了什麼問題？"],["陳委員菁徽（AI）：你們都沒發現更遠的預測值也很誇張嗎？全部都是平的耶！而且從2043開始，全部都是1.2，一點都沒有變，我第一次看到預測長這樣的。而且最好笑的是，2036年你們有一個1.23的高點，我百思不得其解，為什麼突然變高？院長、主委你們有概念嗎？"],["陳委員菁徽：為什麼？"],["卓院長榮泰：報告委員，我相信當時這樣的預測一定是經過政策的研討之後，在政策的輔佐底下算出來的。因為社會環境、整個大環境的變遷很多，當時可能沒有算到這些，但是現在我承認，如果是剛剛的那個預測值跟事實相較不準、不正確，我們就應該把它照現在的……"],["陳委員菁徽：不是，我覺得中間有一年凸起來，合理，那一年你們有想到是為什麼嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：龍年嘛！"],["陳委員菁徽：龍年。可是為什麼後面的龍年你就不理它了？你沒有校正回歸後面的龍年，你後面全部都是1.2，這個可能嗎？你自己都發現第一個龍年了……"],["卓院長榮泰：這個需要檢討，我們要深刻地檢討。"],["陳委員菁徽：好，接下來也是攸關我們行政院官員的福祉，所以我們來看一下這個托育的。"],["陳委員菁徽（AI）：我們要來看公家單位的狀況，你們的計畫裡面說，要擴大公部門托育服務示範效果，除了現在有洽簽特約方式外，希望各機關托育需求評估設置托育設施，這點現在進度如何？"],["卓院長榮泰：就拿行政院來看，它可能很多是空間的設置都受到規範，而且沒有做需求的調查。這個部分如果放到各個單位、各個部會去，也許都面臨到類似或者是不同的問題，我們可以來針對今天委員所提出的這些問題來做討論。"],["陳委員菁徽：對，這個公務機關，曾經人事有去調查過他們的需求。他們都有提出需求，像海委會的托嬰需求就有22個孩子，托兒需求有48個孩子；外交部有11個孩子有托嬰的需求，22個孩子有育兒的需求。結果我們搜尋了你們自己建立的網站，因為院長說得很好，少子化方方面面，托育也是您自己說的，0到6歲國家養也是您自己說的。可是看這邊，行政院、海委會、外交部是通通沒有進度啊！"],["蘇人事長俊榮：這個部分我跟委員報告一下，事實上要設這個托育中心，我們在衛福部有一些比較嚴格的規範，這幾年政府也投入很多的資源，像行政院，事實上在財政部、文化部等相關部會，行政院部本部本身是因為它的辦公空間的限制，在海委會，他們現在在籌劃蓋的那個大樓裡面，也有把托嬰的設施直接納進來，外交部的情況跟行政院的情況是比較一樣。"],["陳委員菁徽：但是我是不是為他們請命？因為像立法院鄰近的公務機關也會來登記我們的托嬰中心，所以現在我們的候補已經100多個了，所以這並不是沒有需求，其實有需求。我們既然希望這些爸媽可以多生，如果行政院願意的話，您知道您的副發言人上個週末也辦了揭曉性別party，就他也預計要喜迎他的小孩……"],["卓院長榮泰：是、是、是。"],["陳委員菁徽：所以這個需求都是在的，您只要開始，我相信許多行政院附近的公務機關都會很需要您的托嬰、托育設施。"],["卓院長榮泰：謝謝委員的提醒，我承諾我們回去就這個問題真的要好好來討論、檢討。"],["陳委員菁徽：好，既然沒有特別設置設施，我們也幫行政院的同仁去搜尋了有相關配合的機構，搜尋的結果不得了，居然托嬰是跟1家在宜蘭、1家在高雄做配合，托兒是5家臺北市的，而且很遠，離行政院都非常的遠，所以我在這邊很誠懇的建議，可以先從公部門做好，畢竟行政院是一個這麼大的部門……"],["卓院長榮泰：好的，謝謝委員。"],["陳委員菁徽：好。我們來探討下一個，這個人口政策會報，卓院長，你也知道106年5月開過一次，賴清德總統當行政院長的時候停止了，這個您知道嗎？"],["陳委員菁徽（AI）：我們再看蔡政府期間的中央……人口政策會報，只在106年5月開過一次會而已，接著時任行政院長的賴清德總統……把行政院人口政策會報停止，卓院長，你知道嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：對不起！沒有聽清楚問題。"],["陳委員菁徽：好，要不要先把那個AI關掉……"],["主席：陳委員，我給你建議，AI講話的時候，你就不要再講，這樣連我也都聽不見，好不好？你就讓AI講。"],["陳委員菁徽：好。"],["卓院長榮泰：謝謝院長。"],["陳委員菁徽（AI）：我們再看少子化辦公室也是成立沒多久就結束，美其名說併入少子女化對策方案的業務，但其實就是在停擺，看到簡報右下角的衛福部專題報告內容，衛福部低調的承認，少子化辦公室不過只是衛福部內的編組而已，沒有跟其他單位對話，這也難怪草草退場。院長，所以敢不敢承諾恢復賴清德總統擔任院長時喊卡的行政院人口政策會報，將少子化這種國安議題至少重新拉升回到行政院層級來嚴肅處理？"],["卓院長榮泰：在推動少子女化的對策計畫當中，我們整合了11個部會，現在要讓它功能產生，如果在院內可以舉行這個必要會議的話，讓它能夠功能產生，落實下去，少子化的辦公室，因為現在衛福部在這個業務上面已經在執行，我們是不是請衛福部來說明一下。"],["邱部長泰源：我想解決少子化，我們所有部會都當成是一個追求的目標，所以政策都會跟少子化相關……"],["陳委員菁徽：院長，剛剛有別的委員問到，我們這個少子化計畫快要結束了，到113年。"],["卓院長榮泰：我們認為對國家未來有必要的計畫，實質上，我們可以來調整。"],["陳委員菁徽：好，剛剛有提到育嬰、育兒的方面要顧，所以我們也來看一下，其實我剛剛才跟邱部長去參加WHA世界醫師聯盟的早餐會，這個會長是一個北歐的女醫師，他聽完我們的育嬰產假制度，他瞠目結舌，他說我們這樣子是沒有辦法拯救我們的少子化，對不對？那位女醫師是這樣說的嘛！"],["邱部長泰源：對。"],["陳委員菁徽：可是我今天也想讓院長看一下我們是如何落後於世界。"],["陳委員菁徽（AI）：我們直接來看勞動部勞動及職業安全衛生研究所在110年提出的「育嬰留職停薪津貼政策對於育兒勞工之影響及相關輔助政策探討」，一百五十幾頁的報告，我們整理了報告中研究其他國家的經驗與數據後發現，我們真的跟不上國際，不論有薪資的週數或生育率，這些國家都是比我們還要高。所以我要呼籲院長，如果國際做得到，我們沒有道理做不到，也不用那麼多藉口、理由，就是提高產假的週數，就算不是一次到位12週，但從我們輸慘其他國家的週數，真的要趕快趕上。"],["卓院長榮泰：剛剛我們有提過，我們會透過勞動部跟勞雇雙方來談一個未來合理的進步，我也很嚮往臺灣成為北歐那種社會福利國家，但是在進程過程當中，我們應該還是要做階段性的努力啦！但是能夠朝一個更合理、進步、福利的國家進步，這當然是大家共同的目標。"],["陳委員菁徽：好，因為現在日本、韓國非常緊張，所以我也在這邊給院長一個建議，我很希望在行政院可以有男性的官員率先來施行。"],["陳委員菁徽（AI）：我們來分享日本政府的作法，因為日本的社會風氣，導致男性要申請育嬰假會遇到更多的挑戰跟困難，所以他們的厚生勞動省就要求，100人以上的企業應該要訂定男性育嬰假目標，從上而下改變育兒環境，不只有給女性更多的補貼與休假，我們更要鼓勵男性承擔起照顧養育的意識與責任，這樣才能達到家庭分工的平權，真正讓所有的勞工都受到照顧與保障，這部分具體建議院長，希望可以多多學習國外好的經驗。"],["卓院長榮泰：追求平權一向是我們的目標，好的政策，無論是哪個國家，我們都希望吸取新的知識、新的政策，我們來做一些評比跟研究。"],["陳委員菁徽：謝謝，我很期待這個少子化計畫下一年度的版本。這是今天才公布的，我們來看一下。"],["陳委員菁徽（AI）：卓院長，今天瑞士洛桑管理學院（IMD）針對今年世界競爭力有一個最新的報告，臺灣在世界競爭力的整體排名今年是第8名，但是我們醫療與環境卻是第24名，並且回顧過去五年的成績，其實都沒有進步，在24與26名之間徘徊不前。","臺灣的醫療技術與服務是聞名全球，這無可否認，上個月我代表前往WHA參加各種國際會議，與各國專家學者們交流時，大家都是先讚嘆臺灣醫療服務一級棒。很感謝各國代表的讚美與祝福，但有一個真相卻是，頂級醫療服務品質是所有醫護人員血汗打拚所成就出來的，反觀政府對於醫療環境基礎建設的投資卻是寥寥無幾，成效有限。本席一再強調，臺灣的醫療是建立在血汗醫護之上，僅用第24名的醫療建設，卻有世界第1名的醫療品質，現在仰賴的就是醫護的熱情和愛，本席非常擔心燒完、用完的一天。總歸一句，請院長能多多為醫護著想，改善醫療環境。"],["卓院長榮泰：是，委員，雖然在過去幾年我們的公衛體系有受到國際的矚目跟一定的成就，但是剛剛這個評比，與其去看評比內容的項目，我倒願意優先看看我們實際的醫療環境，哪個地方還是缺失的，我們直接來補齊。"],["陳委員菁徽：我們等一下來討論，但是這個議題，我們公部門的投資太少，這個從各種數據可知，其實我們從520之前的質詢一直到現在，一直到今天，因為我們剛好去瑞士實地參訪洛桑管理學院，連洛桑管理學院都覺得臺灣人真的很……對於醫護人員，我覺得很誇張，或者是也有點悲哀。我們是用這麼少、這麼少的公部門支出，做出一個這麼亮眼的成績，等一下本席會給你看一下最近的新聞事件。","接下來，我們來看賴總統的健康臺灣，有一個三高一腎的免費篩檢，也就是說，我們把這些慢性病友及早篩檢出來、及早治癒，或是及早用行為治療。那我們來看它的問題在哪裡？"],["陳委員菁徽（AI）：首先，成人預防保健服務已經做了快三十年，主要是針對40歲到65歲以上的國人每三年做一次，65歲以上再做一次更全面的檢查，但根據近十年健檢利用率顯示，其實免費健檢門檻下降到30歲的這份禮物，看似很美，其實效益不大，尤其每一年近十億元的支出，利用率卻連續三年未超過三成，實在很難看出來政府做了何種改變。"],["陳委員菁徽：這樣可以理解嗎？它的利用率很低耶！而且六都，比如說臺北市，它的利用率是不到20%，你們想得出來原因在哪裡嗎？我覺得這個美意是非常好，但是它的利用率這麼低，部長知道為什麼嗎？"],["邱部長泰源：原因相當的多，請委員先指教。"],["陳委員菁徽：我們來播。"],["陳委員菁徽（AI）：院長，勞動部要求企業僱用勞工時應做勞工體檢，另外，勞工在職期間還需要做一般健檢，這某種程度上其實就是重複了。本席認為為了避免浪費行政資源，行政上不要疊床架屋，更不要增加血汗健保體制的負擔，政府是否應考慮更周全的作法？"],["卓院長榮泰：報告委員，我覺得預防是有效提早治療的方式之一，甚至可以減少健保的支出，那麼勞工朋友或者是在公司裡面的同仁，有體檢的福利是受到很多人歡迎的，您說的重複，應該是在進到職場的第一年才會比較可能發生吧？"],["陳委員菁徽：我先講一下為什麼，因為六都的基層醫師都會跟我反映，第一、他的公司已經提供他幾乎跟你們提供的都一樣了，所以他就會做公司的，不會來做政府提供的，但是有一個很基本的前提，就是你的數據就失真了，因為他如果沒有來做政府提供的，你的利用率只有20%，所以你最後輸出的慢性病流行病學就是那20%，他可能沒有公司的體檢，可能沒有自費去一些高階的機構做體檢，但是這群人可以代表全部臺灣人的數據嗎？不代表。接下來你可能會根據你調查到這些慢性病的數據，再去分配各縣市的健康投資，但是當你連第一關的數據都不太對的時候，你分配的資源一定又有偏差，所以這件事情疊床架屋，既然我們是AI內閣，院長也承諾臺灣未來要走向AI的導向，我們就是要利用醫療數據、大數據幫助我們施政更有效率，可是你看現在衛福部在做的事跟勞動部在做的事是重疊的、是疊床架屋的。"],["卓院長榮泰：請部長回答。"],["邱部長泰源：報告委員，依照我個人的經驗，我在臺大醫院工作那麼多年，電腦的系統應該不至於會把勞檢跟員工健檢或者是所謂的成人健檢的data去重複，我們會看他已經做哪些了，大概就不會再去做這些……"],["陳委員菁徽：沒關係，其實問題是這樣子，我也幫大家解釋一下，他如果去私人機構，不一定這些資料會串聯到我們的健保資料庫，因為有隱私的問題。其實卓院長現在在這邊，所以我也希望卓院長可以看到部會之間溝通協調的問題，如果由您來領導，其實他們中間許許多多的醫護是做了重複的事情，但是資料沒有串聯，這個問題很大，可是我們還是要去請教相關的法律專家，看未來有沒有機會把它串聯起來，比如說，私立機構或者是勞檢，願意配合的，我們給他誘因；願意簽名同意的，我們也給這個自願檢查的人誘因；或者是願意自費做高階健檢的，他願意把資料串聯，我們也可以在稅務還是什麼地方給予誘因，因為他願意自掏腰包做身體檢查，為了可以減少國家未來的負擔，這不是很好嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：是，報告委員，首先我們珍惜醫療資源，所以重複的檢查要避免，這樣我們才能夠在更緊縮的成本裡來因應健保所需，同時，我們更要珍惜醫療資訊，希望能夠串聯起來，像我們到大醫院去都會填一個能夠在雲端看自己所有檢查報告的資料，如果能夠落實到非大醫院的其他中型或小型診所，這有待衛福部去做……"],["陳委員菁徽：對，因為利用率只是二、三成，我相信院長應該也會覺得使用率實在太低了！"],["卓院長榮泰：是。"],["邱部長泰源：報告委員，過去二十年來醫院跟基層做了很好的結合，不管是在分級醫療或者像一些社區醫療群，其實基層醫療跟醫院的資訊，尤其是比較基本的數據方面，應該是可以互通的。"],["陳委員菁徽：好，我們會繼續追蹤這個。接下來要問一個許許多多人都關心的問題，這個議題其實吵蠻久的，所以請卓院長、邱部長直接回答，你們支不支持癌症新藥基金法制化？"],["卓院長榮泰：其實我們113年的新藥預算已經有增加，同時，在健保總額下的暫時性支付預算專款也有24億，兩個加起來接近50億，未來我們會朝向就總統所提出的百億新藥基金籌措適當財源，因為現在還在過程當中，所以有關衛福部及健保相關預算，我們先做這樣的安排，希望能夠讓現在有需要的國人得到適當的幫助。"],["陳委員菁徽：是，本席是希望法制化，可以有永續的財源，這才是我們所有癌症病友最關心的。"],["邱部長泰源：是。"],["陳委員菁徽：再來我就直接用講的，因為時間不夠。圖片上這則新聞上個週末被轉載了，相信部長也知道。有一位急診室醫生發出悲歌，而且還是醫學中心的急診室醫師，當天因為護理排班排不出來，也不是只有當天，其實這是常態，因此緊急調度其他單位，還好其他單位有人力可以調度，假使其他單位也很忙，那就完蛋了，因為那天他們用了美國十分之一的人力、美國三分之一的薪水，創造了零死亡率，有兩個送進來已經OHCA、到院前死亡的四十多歲壯年男生，用掉最後兩臺葉克膜，很幸運的還有加護病房，他說他再也撐不下去了！我知道剛剛有委員關切護病比，也有人關切護理津貼，請問針對這個白班特殊單位的護理津貼，你們有具體提出什麼時候前一定要落實嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：請部長說明。"],["邱部長泰源：急重症的醫護人力是我們最近非常重視的問題，而且這是關鍵中的關鍵，過去我們政府也有提出要研討繁重津貼的部分，而在繁重津貼最近的一個討論，發現大家都覺得自己很繁重，所以這個部分我們會再研議。至於其他的中長期護病比獎勵，或其他環境的改善，我們有申請了一年大概四十億、四年一百多億經費來補助。"],["陳委員菁徽：好，謝謝，因為我們明天還要繼續協商健保法，其實這個對基層醫療來說也非常重要，畢竟我們通膨了這麼久，但我們的點值可是從來沒有通膨過，我想這也是你的切身之痛，所以我們也很期待，謝謝部長。","接下來我剩下最後一點點時間，希望幫我們高雄左營爭取，請卓院長、教育部鄭部長、國發會劉主委、工程會陳主委、主計總處陳主計長可以一同列席。我跟高雄所有年輕人聽到清大、陽明交大要來我們高雄都非常的開心，本席知道我們預計要設的是分部沒錯吧？"],["卓院長榮泰：是。"],["陳委員菁徽：謝謝。在這邊其實有一個重點要強調，未來不管是在教育部的溝通，還有在行政院公共工程委員會、國發會，其實這是一個很大的project，它是為了我們高雄的子弟培養AI的人才，這樣他們就不用再北漂，他們也可以在高雄左營擁有非常好的資源來求學，未來找到很好的職業，所以我也希望卓院長可以在這邊跟我們的長官們一起來承諾，我知道未來它有非常非常多的協商，比如國發基金的支持必須要加急，其實在陳建仁院長卸任前一週已經批准了第二預備金，後續也需要行政院來協助在高雄的各項建設，協助他們把工程費用算清楚，可不可以請各位官員在這邊盡力協助？"],["卓院長榮泰：我們很樂見這兩所學校把優良的學風帶到高雄去，教育部在上上個月已經就兩所大學送來的高雄分部計畫書審慎在評估當中。"],["陳委員菁徽：好，謝謝。"],["卓院長榮泰：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝陳菁徽委員的發言，也謝謝卓院長的備詢。","報告院會，本會期對於新任行政院長排定政黨質詢的委員均已質詢完畢，謝謝卓院長及各部會首長列席答詢。","現作以下決定：下次會議進行立法委員個人質詢內政組之質詢，謝謝大家，我們現在散會。","散會（17時51分）"]],"agenda":{"page_end":200,"meet_id":"院會-11-1-18","speakers":["韓國瑜","江啟臣","廖偉翔","林楚茵","陳超明","王世堅","李彥秀","陳雪生","蔡易餘","林岱樺","林沛祥","牛煦庭","何欣純","陳玉珍","陳菁徽"],"page_start":105,"meetingDate":["2024-06-18"],"gazette_id":"1135701","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1135701_00004","1135701_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期第18次會議紀錄","content":"施政質詢\n對行政院院長報告施政方針繼續質詢─ 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院長,您知不知道我們最新的生育率數字是多少?不到0.9吧。好,我們來下公布答案。"},{"start":186.559,"end":205.301,"text":"國發會負責中央政府的人口發展統整,並且花經費做預測系統,名字叫人口推估查詢系統,還把預測做到2070年。院長您用過嗎?您覺得這個系統準嗎?我也已經貼在旁邊,我知道您會說有很多因素,"},{"start":205.922,"end":217.918,"text":"不過這個系統確實預測失準。你們說要找人口、社會學家、專家討論。那我想問,你們有沒有公視在專門處理這件事?背後的參數是什麼?"},{"start":219.748,"end":238.773,"text":"抱歉,這個網站我確實是沒有進去過。但如果存在很多問題,國發會應該要立刻的去查明而且改善。那你現在看到2070年這樣子的數據,我們一年的新生兒只有7萬人,去年我們是大概13.5萬人。13萬多。你有什麼感覺嗎?你覺得這個國發會開發的人口推估預測準確嗎?"},{"start":244.955,"end":245.535,"text":"好,我們現在公佈答案。"},{"start":276.183,"end":286.039,"text":"來,最左邊是我們國發會的網站。原本預測我們2023年、2024年的出生率,我們居然是預測0.95、1.05。我們來看一下。"},{"start":291.897,"end":318.833,"text":"就是因為我去看了你們的出生率預測我看了感覺奇怪有點看不懂左邊這張圖表是從民進黨政府執政之後的出生率2016年到2022年是實際值就是確定的我們可以看到少子化對策的成效其實應該是要檢討的執政那麼多年結果出生率一節一節掉我們來細看每一年的數字"},{"start":319.633,"end":319.673,"text":"是0.865啊"},{"start":344.771,"end":356.979,"text":"所以我們國家在2021年是全球最後一名2022、2023是全球倒數第二名至今都是一樣韓國2022、20230.7他們預測2024年是0.68他們自己有可是我們預測我們自己是1.05耶這其中是有什麼自信嗎還是貓膩嗎"},{"start":374.372,"end":387.369,"text":"報告委員,這個預測值如果是呈現是這個樣子,顯示當時的預測跟現在時期是失準的。那對這個部分政府應該做檢討。我們如果把它..."},{"start":389.5,"end":392.002,"text":"我是說你們可不可以預測的不要這麼寬?因為我們來看下一個問題。你們到2070年的預測出了什麼問題?"},{"start":410.894,"end":410.914,"text":"為什麼?"},{"start":434.334,"end":450.285,"text":"報告委員我相信當時這樣的預測一定是經過政策的研討之後在政策的輔佐底下算出來的那因為社會環境整個大環境的變遷很多當時可能沒有算到這些但是我現在我承認如果是剛剛那個預測值跟事實上不準"},{"start":451.178,"end":453.099,"text":"接下來是攸關我們行政院的官員的福祉所以我們來看一下"},{"start":481.084,"end":501.715,"text":"﹗"},{"start":503.632,"end":522.82,"text":"就拿行政院來看吧,它可能很多是空間的設置都受到規範,而且沒有做這個需求的調查,那這個部分如果放到各個單位各個部會去,也許都面臨類似或是不同的問題,那我們可以來,這對今天委員所提出的這個問題我們來做討論。"},{"start":525.276,"end":545.808,"text":"公務機關曾經人事有去調查過他們的需求,他們都有提出需求,像海委會對拖鷹需求有22個孩子,拖兒需求有48個孩子,外交部有11個孩子拖鷹的需求,22個孩子育兒的需求,結果我們搜尋了你們自己建立的網站,"},{"start":546.488,"end":560.451,"text":"因為院長說得很好,少子化方方面面,托育也是您自己說的,0到6歲國家養也是您自己說的,可是看這邊喔,行政院、海委會、外交部是通通沒有進度啊。這個部分我跟委員報告一下,事實上要設這個托育中心我們在衛福部有一些比較嚴格的一個規範,那這幾年"},{"start":573.439,"end":598.916,"text":"事實上政府也投入很多的資源像行政院事實上在財政部還有文化部相關部會那行政院部門部本身是因為他的辦公空間的限制那在海委會新的他們在現在在籌辦籌劃蓋的那個大樓裡面他也有把投印的設施直接都納進來"},{"start":600.459,"end":603.456,"text":"那外交部的情況跟行政院的情況是會比較一樣"},{"start":604.059,"end":631.781,"text":"但是我是不為他們請命因為像立法院臨近的公務機關也會來登記我們托嬰中心所以現在我們那個候補已經100多個了已經100多個了所以這並不是說沒有需求其實有需求我們既然希望這些爸媽可以多省像如果行政院您願意的話您知道您的副發言人上個週末也辦了揭曉性別party"},{"start":633.208,"end":635.569,"text":"我承諾我們回去就這個問題真的是要把我來討論檢討。"},{"start":656.732,"end":683.695,"text":"好,既然如果沒有特別的設施,我們也幫行政院的同仁去搜尋了這個有相關配合的機構。結果啊,搜尋得不得了,居然托嬰是跟一家在宜蘭、一家在高雄做配合。那托兒呢,是五家台北市的,而且很遠啊,離行政院都非常的遠。所以我"},{"start":684.415,"end":712.451,"text":"在這邊很誠懇的建議,可以先從公部門我們把它做好。畢竟行政院是一個這麼大的部門。好的,謝謝委員。好,是。那我們來探討下一個。我們再看蔡政府期間報中央人口政策會報。卓院長你也知道106年5月開過一次,這個賴清德總統當行政院長的時候停止,這個您知道嗎?"},{"start":713.832,"end":714.872,"text":"主委院長你知道嗎?那我們看一下下一頁。"},{"start":736.114,"end":762.353,"text":"來,那我們再看少子化辦公室也是成立沒多久就結束。每集明說併入少子女化對策方案的業務,但其實就是在停擺。看到右下角簡報的衛福部專題報告內容,衛福部低調地承認少子化辦公室不過只是衛福部內的編組而已,加國內沒有跟其他單位對話,這也難怪草草退場。"},{"start":763.334,"end":776.3,"text":"所以院長敢不敢承諾恢復賴清德總統擔任院長時喊卡的行政院人口政策匯報,將少子化這種國安議題至少重新拉升回到行政院層級來嚴肅處理。"},{"start":779.537,"end":799.995,"text":"我們在推動少子化的少子化的對策計畫當中我們整合了11個部會那現在這個要讓它功能產生如果在院內我們可以舉行這個必要的會議的話讓它能夠功能產生落實下去那少子化的辦公室因為現在衛福部已經在這個業務上面這個政策上在做確診執行了我們請衛福部來答詢一下"},{"start":803.308,"end":831.313,"text":"好我想少子化是我們一直所有部會都認為是最重都把它當成是一個追求的一個目標所以相關的政策都會跟少子化來相關院長剛有別的委員問到我們這個少子化計畫快要結束了快要結束了到11、3年我們認為對國家未來有必要的計畫在時程上我們可以來調整"},{"start":834.957,"end":835.237,"text":"陳菁徽"},{"start":855.612,"end":859.055,"text":"我今天想讓院長看一下我們是如何落後於世界。"},{"start":872.128,"end":892.844,"text":"但我們直接來看勞動部勞動及職業安全衛生研究所在110年提出的育嬰留職停薪津貼政策對於育兒勞工之影響及相關輔助政策探討150幾頁的報告我們整理了報告中研究其他國家的經驗與數據後發現我們真的跟不上國際"},{"start":896.772,"end":896.952,"text":"﹚陳菁徽"},{"start":920.671,"end":932.728,"text":"剛剛我們有提過我們會跟透過勞動部跟勞僱雙方啊來談一個未來合理的進步但是我也很嚮往台灣成為北歐那種社會福利國家但是我們應該"},{"start":934.13,"end":935.59,"text":"分享日本政府的做法。"},{"start":956.576,"end":985.635,"text":"因為日本的社會風氣導致男性要申請育嬰假會遇到更多的挑戰跟困難。所以他們的後生勞動省就要求100人以上的企業應該要訂定男性育嬰假目標從上而下改變育兒環境不只有給女性更多的補貼與休假我們更要鼓勵男性承擔起照顧養育的意識與責任這樣才能達到家庭分工的平權"},{"start":986.756,"end":1014.144,"text":"真正讓所有的勞工都受到照顧與保障這部分具體建議院長希望可以多多學習國外好的經驗追求平權是我們一向的目標那好的政策無論是哪一個國家我們都希望吸取新的知識新的政策我們來做一些評比跟研究好 謝謝我很期待這個少子化計畫下一年度的版本"},{"start":1016.102,"end":1041.533,"text":"這今天才公布的,我們來看一下。卓議院長,今天瑞士洛桑管理學院IMD針對今年世界競爭力有一個最新的報告。臺灣在世界競爭力的整體排名今年是第8名。但是我們醫療與環境卻是第24名。並且回顧過去5年的成績,其實都沒有進步,在24與26名之間徘徊不淺。"},{"start":1048.995,"end":1071.469,"text":"臺灣的醫療技術與服務是聞名全球,這無可否認。上個月我代表前往WHA參加各種國際會議,與各國專家學者們交流時,大家都是先讚嘆臺灣醫療服務一級棒,很感謝各國代表的讚美與祝福。但有一個真相卻是,頂級醫療服務品質,"},{"start":1073.75,"end":1097.08,"text":"是所有醫護人員協和打拼所成就出來的。反觀政府對於醫療環境基礎建設的投資卻是寥寥無幾,成效有限。本席一再強調臺灣的醫療是建立在協和醫護之上,僅用著第24名的醫療建設卻有世界第一名的醫療品質。"},{"start":1098.821,"end":1120.235,"text":"現在仰賴的就是醫護的熱情和愛本期非常擔心燒完用完的一天總規矩請院長能多多為醫護著想改善醫療環境雖然我們在過去幾年我們的公衛體系有受到國際的矚目跟一定成就但是剛剛這個評比"},{"start":1122.352,"end":1122.592,"text":"﹚陳菁徽"},{"start":1152.932,"end":1155.533,"text":"接下來我們來看賴總統的健康台灣有一個三高一勝的免費篩檢也就是說我們把"},{"start":1179.659,"end":1179.779,"text":"﹚陳菁徽"},{"start":1194.045,"end":1220.333,"text":"首先承認預防保健服務已經做了快30年主要是針對40歲到65歲以上的國人每3年做一次65歲以上再做一次更全面的檢查但根據近10年健檢利用率顯示其實免費健檢門檻下降到30歲的這份禮物看似很美其實效益不大"},{"start":1221.033,"end":1249.94,"text":"尤其每一年進10億元的支出利用率卻連續三年未超過三成實在很難看出來政府做了何種改變這樣可以理解嗎?它的利用率很低而且六都比如說台北市它的利用率是不到20%你們想得出來原因在哪裡嗎?我覺得這個美意是非常好"},{"start":1251.084,"end":1254.065,"text":"運總,勞動部要求企業雇用勞工時應做勞工體檢,另外勞工在職期間還需要做一般健檢,這某種程度上其實就是重複了。"},{"start":1278.82,"end":1303.846,"text":"本席認為為了避免浪費行政資源,行政上不要跌床駕屋,更不要增加血汗健保體制的負擔。政府是否應考慮更周全做法?報告委員,我覺得預防是一個有效的提早治療的方式之一,甚至可以減少健保的支出。那麼勞工朋友或是在公司裡面"},{"start":1305.851,"end":1319.292,"text":"的同仁有這個體檢的福利是受到很多人歡迎的但您說的重複應該是在進到一個工職場的第一年或是才會比較可能發生吧"},{"start":1319.807,"end":1339.961,"text":"我先講一下為什麼,因為這個六都都有跟我反映,基層的醫師。第一,他的公司已經提供他,幾乎跟你們提供的都一樣了。所以呢,他就會做公司的,他不會來做政府運用的。但是有一個很基本的前提,你的數據就失真了。"},{"start":1340.902,"end":1363.899,"text":"因為他如果沒有來做政府提供的你原利用率只有20所以你最後輸出的我們的慢性病流行病學就是那20%他可能沒有公司的體檢可能這個沒有自費去一些高階的機構做體檢所以這一群人他有代表全部台灣人的數據嗎不代表"},{"start":1364.719,"end":1383.852,"text":"接下來呢你可能會根據你調查到的這些慢性病的數據再去分配各縣市的健康投資嘛但是你連第一關的數據都不太對的時候你分配的資源一定又有偏差所以這件事情跌床加屋既然我們是AI內閣"},{"start":1385.273,"end":1385.473,"text":"報告委員．依照"},{"start":1408.53,"end":1425.407,"text":"我個人的經驗,我在台大醫院工作那麼多年,那應該電腦的系統不至於說會把勞檢跟員工健檢或者是所謂的成人健檢的data去重複。"},{"start":1431.347,"end":1439.196,"text":"沒關係,其實問題是這樣子,我也幫大家解釋一下。他如果去私人的機構,不一定這些資料會串聯到我們的健保資料庫,因為有隱私的問題。"},{"start":1442.339,"end":1459.233,"text":"所以其實這個其實是因為卓院長現在在這邊所以我也希望卓院長可以看到部會之間的溝通協調問題如果有您來領導其實他們中間許許多多的醫護是做了重複的事情"},{"start":1460.435,"end":1474.43,"text":"對但是資料沒有串聯這個問題很大可是我們還是要去請教相關的法律專家未來有沒有機會把它串聯起來比如說私立機構或者是勞檢他願意配合的我們給他誘因"},{"start":1475.291,"end":1475.311,"text":"是﹖"},{"start":1498.104,"end":1522.56,"text":"報告委員首先我們珍惜醫療資源所以重複的檢查要避免我們才能夠在更緊縮的成本裡面來因應健保的所需要同時我們要更珍惜醫療的資訊所以能夠串聯起來我覺得我們到大醫院去他都會填一個是不是能夠在雲端看自己的這個所有檢查報告那如果能夠落實到非大醫院其他的"},{"start":1526.668,"end":1532.781,"text":"對,因為利用率我只是二、三成,我相信院長你應該也會覺得這個使用率實在太低了啊。"},{"start":1535.654,"end":1562.952,"text":"保委員那個因為現在我們過去20年來也把醫療跟醫院跟基層做了很好的結合不管是在分級醫療或者是像一些社區醫療群其實基層醫療跟醫院的資訊是尤其是數據方面啦比較基本的數據方面應該是可以互通的好我們會繼續追蹤這個接下來是要問許許多多阿姨們關心的"},{"start":1564.933,"end":1580.425,"text":"卓院長,您有看到今天連...覺得這個議題是吵滿久,所以其實我們可以直接回答卓院長、邱部長有沒有這個支持把這個癌症新藥基金把它法制化呢?"},{"start":1582.267,"end":1601.574,"text":"我們現在在113年的新藥的預算已經有增加了那同時我們這個健保總額底下的暫時性支付預算專款也有24億兩個加起來將近接近50億接近50億那未來我們要朝向建立一個在籌措適當的裁員"},{"start":1603.896,"end":1604.076,"text":"主席"},{"start":1619.456,"end":1644.029,"text":"這是希望可以法治化永續的裁員,這個是我們所有癌症病有最關心的。再來我也是直接用講的,因為時間不夠。這個新聞上個週末被轉載了,相信部長知道,有一位急診室醫生發出了悲歌,而且還是醫學中心的急診室醫師。當天護理排班排不出來,而且這個不是當天,這個其實是常態。"},{"start":1645.845,"end":1664.667,"text":"﹏﹏"},{"start":1664.827,"end":1665.247,"text":"你剛剛部長有說什麼?"},{"start":1690.58,"end":1715.472,"text":"我想集中症的醫護人力是我們非常最近非常重視的問題而且這是關鍵中的關鍵那在過去我們政府也有提出要研討繁重津貼這個部分那在繁重的津貼裡面最近的一個討論發現說大家都覺得自己很繁重"},{"start":1716.817,"end":1717.317,"text":"我們明天還要繼續寫商界毛髮。"},{"start":1736.869,"end":1757.654,"text":"﹏﹏"},{"start":1758.898,"end":1779.607,"text":"請卓院長、教育部政部長、國發會劉主委、工程會陳主委、主計總處陳主計長可以一同列席。那我跟高雄所有的年輕人聽到清大陽明交代要讓我們高雄都非常的開心。那本席之道我們預計是要設的是分部沒錯吧?是謝謝"},{"start":1790.237,"end":1805.256,"text":"謝謝在這邊其實有個重點要強調不管是未來呢在教育部的溝通還有在行政院工程委員會還有在國發會其實這是一個很大的project可是它是為了我們高雄的子弟"},{"start":1805.897,"end":1806.117,"text":"﹚陳菁徽"},{"start":1832.148,"end":1848.184,"text":"在陳菁的院長卸任前一周前已經批准了第二預備金後續也需要我們的行政院來協助在高雄的各項建設協助他們工程費用算清楚可不可以請各位官員在這邊盡力協助"},{"start":1862.936,"end":1862.998,"text":"謝謝陳菁衛委員"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}