{"error":false,"id":["154112"],"data":{"IVOD_ID":154112,"IVOD_URL":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154112","日期":"2024-06-20","會議資料":{"會議代碼":"全院委員會-11-1-1","會議代碼:str":"第11屆第1會期第1次全院委員會會議","屆":11,"會期":1,"會次":1,"臨時會會次":null,"種類":"全院委員會","標題":"立法院第11屆第1會期第1次全院委員會會議"},"影片種類":"Clip","開始時間":"2024-06-20T09:11:43+08:00","結束時間":"2024-06-20T09:22:37+08:00","影片長度":"00:10:54","支援功能":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/3ceaf6abec8b4a6def6a61ca5677c3839dd1cafa7fa6f271027249ef8248f463086c014107443c235ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"王定宇","委員發言時間":"09:11:43 - 09:22:37","會議時間":"2024-06-20T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"第11屆第1會期第1次全院委員會會議（事由：審查「立法院職權行使法」修正部分條文、「中華民國刑法」增訂第五章之一章名及第一百四十一條之一條文等覆議案。）","gazette":{"lineno":47,"blocks":[["王委員定宇：（9時11分）謝謝副院長，麻煩卓榮泰行政院長。"],["主席：請卓院長備詢。"],["卓院長榮泰：王委員好。"],["王委員定宇：院長早，辛苦了。從昨天開始我看到有人不斷地用美國、德國，甚至於還有人拿中華人民共和國憲法來這邊質詢，來證明這一次立法院的擴權不是濫權，但是好像不讓卓院長或者是法務部鄭部長回答，這些根本性的不同，比方說美國的三權分立，他們是沒有辦法質詢官員，而他們的公聽、聽證是很嚴謹的；至於中華人民共和國的憲法，坦白講，所有的條文不如習近平一句話。我是在這邊建議，這一些不讓官員回答，只講自己單向輸出的部分，不管是全國法學院或中央研究院這些法學者，或者是律師公會四百多位律師，甚至於法務部，應該把它整理一個簡單摘要，當作全民的基本法律教育，讓他們知道有些東西這樣類比，其實除了證明自己在臺灣提的東西有問題以外，大概沒辦法證明任何事情，這個是我第一個建議，我不知道院長跟法務部這邊可不可以做這樣的事情。"],["卓院長榮泰：謝謝。"],["王委員定宇：因為我昨天看你一直要回答，都沒辦法回答完整。另外，在回答中不斷地打斷官員的回復，只想要單方向的輸出，這不是想要在這邊論證、辯證，讓社會大眾知道什麼對國家比較好，只是要單方向的證明一件事情，甚至於要把它變成抖音，我覺得這個對我們民主進步是沒有幫助的。","所以我現在要就教兩個大方向，這一次會激怒民眾其實有兩個主要原因，讓10萬個年輕人冒著大雨、大太陽，站在青島東路、徐州路、濟南路上面，從517、521、524到528，兩個主要，一個是反對審查的黑箱過程，或者我們把它叫做立法程序的粗糙，這個好像也是你覆議的原因之一。"],["卓院長榮泰：是的，委員。"],["王委員定宇：第二個是對於這樣子的擴權、濫權，影響一般人民權益，甚至於對院際之間的權力分際有產生一些紛擾，所以這麼重大的法案影響到院際的運作、人民的權益，卻這麼粗糙，我不知道作為行政院長，卓院長，對於這個審查過程，你可不可以具體講出一個例子，你認為粗糙的地方在哪裡？或者不適當的地方在哪裡？"],["卓院長榮泰：在審查的過程，委員應該比我清楚，但我們從外界來看，跟社會輿論來看，我覺得一直談論說最後是經過表決，但那個表決是不是一個很嚴謹的表決，應該委員心裡都清楚。"],["王委員定宇：我看到國民黨、民眾黨藍白的委員講的，不只跟你講表決，他告訴你我有3場公聽會。我整理給你看……"],["卓院長榮泰：對，還有公聽會、審查過程，3場公聽會中2場是審查民主進步黨黨團的提案，後來都是被封殺了。"],["王委員定宇：3場公聽會──4月3號是國民黨辦的，只針對國民黨、民眾黨版本；然後4月10號到4月11號是民進黨辦的，有民進黨版本，結果逕付二讀的沒有民進黨版本，所以坦白講，國民黨公聽會只有1場。更荒謬的是，517開會的時候有一個最高機密版，跟這3場公聽會通通都沒關係，所以這公聽會是多餘的嘛！然後呢？縱使公聽會講得再透徹，還是要回到立法院審查法案的程序──委員會審查、朝野協商、院會發言登記、討論到表決。","所以你看喔！我計算了一下，在委員會審查，司法及法制委員會國民黨當召委的時候，應該審查的條文數總共有3個章名、55條次，這是立法院職權行使法；刑法的條文是1個章名、3個條次；總共4個章名58條次，結果只要有意見，就保留不讓你討論、就送出委員會，保留多少呢？4個章名、58條次，百分之百。","我還截了一小段，你看到這議事錄，像沈發惠委員說有意見，我要發言；有意見保留、出委員會，不讓他發言、不討論，所以在委員會的討論是這個情形。","我們還整理了一個表，在5月16號韓國院長主持的黨團協商，完全沒有進行逐條討論，沒有，協商時一條逐條都沒有；隔天517就要表決了，表決的版本？我後來發現是不是冤枉了韓國瑜院長，因為那一天朝野協商的版本最高機密版還沒生出來啊！所以那一天他如果逐條進行協商，協商出來到審查表決的變成是黃國昌和翁曉玲的最高機密版，那協商不是變成「阿斯巴拉」？也沒有，就丟出來了；最後呢？到院會最重要的表決前，登記發言2,844人次，只准73個人發言，沒收了97.5%的發言權，你看議事錄就告訴你，每次有一個人講完話，國民黨、民眾黨就提案終止討論、沒收發言，這樣子的過程其實是不讓你討論，沒辦法去討論那些文字，所以到三讀還在偷修改文字嘛！所以我可以理解卓院長你講的，這個過程沒有經過充分地議事的過程。","其實還有一個最重要的，你看我們立法院議事規則的第三十六條，第三十六條告訴我們，表決應就可否兩方依次行之。我們那天被舉手表決，人數清點亂七八糟，表決的人數大過於現場的人數，先不講這裡，他表決只做可方，就是一方表決，沒有做否方，這牽涉到憲法訴訟法第四十九條，憲法訴訟法第四十九條裡面講到，反對方要四分之一立法委員，就能提出釋憲案。所以我不知道我們立法院秘書長在搞什麼東西，我們的議事規範明明就是要可否，也就是贊成者請舉手，反對者請舉手，因為有人可以不舉手啊！那幾天的表決，我們在場的記者都看得很清楚，都一方舉手，後面就不表決了，唯一一次做可否表決是因為民眾黨跟國民黨的票數沒過半，他才做可否表決，可是這牽涉到後面有關釋憲要四分之一委員，對這一點行政院的看法是什麼？因為如果覆議沒有通過，我相信後面要走釋憲，這個影響太大。這一個表決方式沒有讓否決方出來，也是一個非常重大的瑕疵，卓院長你的看法？"],["卓院長榮泰：如果表決方式的瑕疵，造成未來釋憲上的障礙，那又會引發另一場法律跟憲法的爭議，我是覺得過程都應該要讓它很嚴謹地依法來完成，所以我很珍惜這次覆議案的提出，如果能夠像王委員這樣子清清楚楚講出整個過程，國人同胞才有機會更清楚整個過程……"],["王委員定宇：我剛剛講的是過程，其實法條問題很多，我真的希望國民黨、民眾黨的委員，讓它回到委員會，把有瑕疵的部分去掉，把對公務人員或者是我們一般民眾可能產生的傷害修改掉，最後回到議場裡面，國民黨加民眾黨表決還是會贏，但這個法律的審查過程是有問題的。","就條文的部分，我們請法務部長上來，我把握時間，還有2分鐘。你看我們這一次通過的立法院職權行使法第二十五條，第二十五條我畫了紅字很簡單地告訴你，第一個，你不能反質詢，不能做質詢範圍外的答復。坦白講，這只是約束被質詢的人，我看到有質詢的立委講到兩國論，講東講西，他都可以超出範圍，被質詢的不行。我先請教法務部長，鄭部長是檢察官出身的。"],["鄭部長銘謙：是。"],["王委員定宇：反質詢現在你弄懂了沒？什麼叫反質詢？"],["鄭部長銘謙：我不理解反質詢真正的定義……"],["王委員定宇：好，如果你不理解、定義不清楚，這怎麼處罰？"],["鄭部長銘謙：對，質詢本來就不應該處罰。"],["王委員定宇：我告訴你，它的處罰方式是五個立委認為有問題就給你移送監察院。"],["鄭部長銘謙：對，這個還有裁罰。"],["王委員定宇：五個立委通過，然後院會決議就把你送出去。"],["鄭部長銘謙：還有裁罰，還有……"],["王委員定宇：後面還有罰錢。"],["鄭部長銘謙：還有罰……"],["王委員定宇：所以這個定義不清楚。另外，你看第二十五條規定，被約來質詢的人不能缺席，不能不回答，你如果拒絕的話還是要罰，還要按次連續罰。我現在跳到最後一條刑法修正的部分，第一個問題，這裡面講的「公務員」是指誰？請儘快回答，部長。"],["鄭部長銘謙：公務員就是公務員服務法裡面，依法……"],["王委員定宇：按照公務……"],["鄭部長銘謙：刑法的公務員就是……"],["王委員定宇：「公務員」的定義比「公務人員」更廣。"],["鄭部長銘謙：對。"],["王委員定宇：公務員除了事務官以外，政務官以外，還包含依法從事公共事務的人。"],["鄭部長銘謙：包括委託行政的。"],["王委員定宇：對。"],["鄭部長銘謙：譬如公路機關委託驗車的那一種人也包括。"],["王委員定宇：驗車、里長都適用這一條，然後重要關係事項定義不明，虛偽陳述定義不明，立委決定把你移送，可以連續罰一年以下有期徒刑，這影響好多人，還有有關係之人，一般人都會受影響。我最後請問，罰款是不是一般人會受影響？被送刑事處罰的是公務員，是廣義的定義，都會受影響。請簡單回答。"],["鄭部長銘謙：是，全部都會受到影響。"],["王委員定宇：全部都會受影響。"],["鄭部長銘謙：是。"],["王委員定宇：因為時間到了，我建議對於我們問的沒辦法完全的部分，整理一個摘要，讓民眾瞭解國會濫權發生什麼事情。謝謝。"],["鄭部長銘謙：只要被質詢的都會受到影響。"],["卓院長榮泰：謝謝委員，也謝謝……"],["主席：好，謝謝王委員，也謝謝卓院長。","下一位請徐委員巧芯質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":372,"meet_id":"全院委員會-11-1-1","speakers":["韓國瑜","江啟臣","陳昭姿","王定宇","徐巧芯","黃珊珊","賴惠員","葉元之","莊瑞雄","林德福","黃捷","王育敏","郭國文","柯志恩","李坤城","李彥秀","蘇巧慧","黃健豪","吳沛憶","牛煦庭","王世堅","吳宗憲","陳俊宇","謝衣鳯","沈伯洋","翁曉玲"],"page_start":301,"meetingDate":["2024-06-20"],"gazette_id":"1136001","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1136001_00007","1136001_00008"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期第1次全院委員會會議紀錄","content":"審查「立法院職權行使法」修正部分條文、「中華民國刑法」增訂第五章之一章名及第一百四十\n一條之一條文等覆議案","agenda_id":"1136001_00005"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":11.219093750000003,"end":13.952843750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":14.762843750000002,"end":15.25221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":15.25221875,"end":15.555968750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":15.555968750000002,"end":15.57284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":15.99471875,"end":16.36596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":16.36596875,"end":16.38284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":23.74034375,"end":26.153468750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":26.79471875,"end":34.10159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":34.52346875,"end":39.13034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":39.46784375,"end":43.838468750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":44.42909375,"end":59.97096875000000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請坐從昨天開始我看到有人不斷地用美國、德國甚至於還有人拿中華人民共和國的憲法來這邊質詢來證明這一次的立法院的擴權不是濫權但是好像不讓卓院長或者是法務部的政部長回答"},{"start":44.6,"end":59.104,"text":"這些根本性的不同比方說這個美國的三權分立他們是沒有辦法質詢官員而他們的公聽聽證是很嚴謹的那至於中華人民共和國的憲法坦白講所有的條文不如習近平一句話我是在這邊建議"},{"start":61.185,"end":82.573,"text":"這一些不讓官員回答只講自己單項輸出的部分我們不管是全國法學院或中央研究院這些法學者或者是律師公會四百多位律師甚至於法務部應該把它整理一個簡單摘要當作全民的基本的法律教育讓大家知道有些東西這樣類比其實是"},{"start":84.946,"end":85.086,"text":"另外﹖"},{"start":99.755,"end":122.051,"text":"在回答他們不斷的打斷官員的回覆只想要單方向的輸出這不是想要在這邊論證辯證讓社會大眾知道什麼對國家比較好只是要單方向的證明一件事情甚至於要把它變成抖音我覺得這個對我們民主進步是沒有幫助的所以我現在就叫兩個大方向"},{"start":122.931,"end":148.949,"text":"這一次會激怒民眾其實有兩個主要原因讓十萬個年輕人冒著大雨大太陽站在青島東路、徐州路、濟南路上面從517、521、524到528兩個主要一個是反對這個審查的黑箱過程或者我們把它叫做立法程序的粗糙這個好像也是你附議的原因之一是的委員第二個是"},{"start":149.884,"end":174.352,"text":"對於這樣子的擴權濫權影響一般人民權益甚至於對院紀之間的權力的分際有產生一些紛擾所以這麼重大的法案影響到院紀的運作人民的權益卻這麼粗糙我不知道作為行政院長、總院長你認為這個審查過程你可不可以具體講出一個例子你認為粗糙的地方在哪裡或者不適當的地方在哪裡"},{"start":175.66,"end":187.56,"text":"在審查的過程委員應該比我清楚但我們從外界來看跟社會人來看我覺得一直談論說最後是經過表決但那個表決是不是一個很嚴謹的表決應該"},{"start":191.066,"end":200.256,"text":"其實我看到國民黨民眾黨藍白的委員講的話,不只跟你講表決,他告訴我有三場公聽會,還有審查的過程。三場公聽會兩場是審查民主進步黨黨團的提案,後來都是被封殺了。三場公聽會,4月3號是國民黨辦的,只針對國民黨民眾黨版本。"},{"start":212.108,"end":234.586,"text":"然後四月十號到四月十一號呢是民進黨辦的有民進黨版本結果進覆二讀的呢沒有民進黨版本所以坦白講國民黨公聽會就一場那更荒謬的是五一七開會的時候有一個最高機密版跟這三場公聽會通通都沒關係所以這公聽會給開嘛然後呢"},{"start":235.807,"end":249.498,"text":"縱使公共會講的再透徹還是要回到立法院審查法案的程序委員會審查朝院協商院會發言登記討論到表決所以你看齁我計算了一下在委員會審查齁"},{"start":251.667,"end":270.322,"text":"司法法制委員會國民黨當召委的時候應該審查的條文數總共有三個章名五十五條次這是立法院的職權行使法刑法的條文是一個章名三個條次總共四個章名五十八條次結果"},{"start":271.519,"end":284.35,"text":"只要有意見就保留就不讓你討論就送出委員會保留多少呢?四個章名五十八條次百分之百我還截了一小段你看那個議事錄像那個"},{"start":287.386,"end":308.585,"text":"審法會委員說有意見我要發言有意見保留出委員會不讓他發言不討論所以在委員會的討論是這個情形那我們還整理一個表在5月16號韓國瑜院長主持的黨團協商完全沒有進行逐條討論沒有協商說一條逐條都沒有隔天517就要表決表決的版本"},{"start":310.723,"end":330.054,"text":"我後來發現是不是冤枉了韓國瑜院長因為他那一天草野協商的版本最高機密版還沒生出來啊所以那一天如果逐條進行協商協商出來都要審查表決的變成是黃國昌跟翁曉琳的最高機密版那些都不變阿蘇巴拉的所以也沒有就丟出來了"},{"start":331.092,"end":347.414,"text":"最後呢到院會最重要的表決前登記發言2844人次只准73個人發言沒收了97.5%你看議事錄明就告訴你每次有一個人講完話國民黨民眾黨就提案終止討論沒收發言"},{"start":349.335,"end":370.928,"text":"所以這樣子的過程其實是不讓你討論沒辦法去討論那些文字所以到三讀還在偷修改文字所以我可以理解卓院長你講的這個過程沒有經過充分的這個議事的過程其實還有一個最重要的你看我們立法院議事規範的第36條36條告訴我們表決要何否兩方依次行之"},{"start":379.605,"end":396.446,"text":"我們那天被舉手表決人數輕點亂七八糟表決的人數大過於現場的人數就先不講這裡他表決只做可方就一方表決沒有做否方這牽涉到憲法的訴訟法第47條"},{"start":399.597,"end":426.119,"text":"憲法司法法第49條裡面講到反對方要四分之一立法委員才能就能提出釋憲案所以我不知道我們立法院秘書長在搞什麼東西我們的議事規範明明就是要可否也就是贊成請舉手反對請舉手因為有人可以不舉手啊那幾天的表決我們在場的那個記者都看得很清楚都一方舉手後面都不表決了"},{"start":427.15,"end":443.256,"text":"唯一一次做可否表決是因為民眾黨跟國民黨的票數沒過半他才做可否表決可是簽到後面有關釋憲要四分之一對這一點行政院的看法是什麼因為如果覆議沒有過我相信後面要走釋憲因為影響太大"},{"start":444.378,"end":467.76,"text":"這一個表決方式沒有讓否決方式出來也是一個非常重大的瑕疵 主任長你的看法如果表決方式的瑕疵造成未來視線上的障礙那又會引發另一場法律跟憲法的爭議所以我覺得過程都應該讓他很嚴謹的依法來完成所以我很珍惜這次覆議案的提出能夠像王委員這樣子清清楚楚講出整個過程"},{"start":468.46,"end":495.087,"text":"國人同胞才有機會認清楚這個過程我真的希望國民黨民眾黨的委員讓他回到委員會把有瑕疵的部分取掉把對公務人員或者是我們的一般民眾可能產生的傷害修改掉最後回到我們議場裡面國民黨加民眾黨的表決還是會贏但這個法律的審查過程是有問題的"},{"start":496.228,"end":498.734,"text":"就條文的部分我們請法務部長上來,我把握時間兩分鐘"},{"start":501.072,"end":528.542,"text":"你看我們這一次通過的立法院的職權行使法第25條這25條呢我畫了紅字其實很簡單就告訴你第一個你不能反質詢不能做質詢範圍外的質詢坦白講這是這只是約束被質詢的我這裡面看到有質詢的立委講到兩國論講東講西他都可以超出範圍被質詢的不行這裡面我先請教法務部長政部長你是檢察官出身的嘛"},{"start":530.68,"end":537.688,"text":"反質詢到現在你弄懂了沒?什麼叫反質詢?我不理解這個反質詢真正的定義如果你不理解定義不清楚這怎麼處罰?"},{"start":538.868,"end":560.269,"text":"那這個質詢這本來就是不應該處罰的那我告訴你他的處罰方式是用這個五個立委齁認為有問題這個就給你移送啊移送監察院啊對他這個還有裁罰五個立委通過然後院會決議就把你送出去啦還有裁罰還有那個後面還有罰錢所以這個定義是不清楚然後另外你看第25條齁"},{"start":561.75,"end":562.59,"text":"請盡快回答部長"},{"start":585.216,"end":612.728,"text":"公務員就是公務員服務法裡面所依依法那個刑法的公務員就是公務員的定義是比公務人員更廣公務員是除了事務官以外政務官以外還包含依法從事公務事務的人喔是包括那個委託行政的委託行政譬如說那個公路委託那個驗車的那一種就是委託驗車啦里長都坐這條房然後呢重要關係事項定義不明"},{"start":614.308,"end":637.937,"text":"虛偽陳述,定義不明,然後立委決定把你移送,可以連續罰一年以下有期徒刑,這影響好多人,那這邊還有有關係之人,一般人都會受影響,所以我最後請問,罰款是不是一般人會受影響?被送刑事處罰的是公務員,這廣義的定義都會受影響,請簡單回答。全部都會受影響,因為時間到,我建議"},{"start":647.516,"end":649.938,"text":"好,謝謝王委員,也謝謝卓院長下一位請"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}