{"error":false,"id":["154114"],"data":{"IVOD_ID":154114,"IVOD_URL":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154114","日期":"2024-06-20","會議資料":{"會議代碼":"全院委員會-11-1-1","會議代碼:str":"第11屆第1會期第1次全院委員會會議","屆":11,"會期":1,"會次":1,"臨時會會次":null,"種類":"全院委員會","標題":"立法院第11屆第1會期第1次全院委員會會議"},"影片種類":"Clip","開始時間":"2024-06-20T09:33:57+08:00","結束時間":"2024-06-20T09:44:27+08:00","影片長度":"00:10:30","支援功能":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/3ceaf6abec8b4a6d69583e59a4d0637d9dd1cafa7fa6f271027249ef8248f4631a088aa3d2b9e73c5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"黃珊珊","委員發言時間":"09:33:57 - 09:44:27","會議時間":"2024-06-20T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"第11屆第1會期第1次全院委員會會議（事由：審查「立法院職權行使法」修正部分條文、「中華民國刑法」增訂第五章之一章名及第一百四十一條之一條文等覆議案。）","gazette":{"lineno":214,"blocks":[["黃委員珊珊：（9時33分）謝謝主席，我想請卓院長。"],["主席：請卓院長備詢。"],["卓院長榮泰：黃委員好。"],["黃委員珊珊：院長早。這幾天大家已經討論了非常非常久，我還是想回到憲法和法律的層次。"],["卓院長榮泰：是的。"],["黃委員珊珊：我想問一下，行政院現在是在跟大法官搶憲法的解釋權嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：當然不是。"],["黃委員珊珊：不是嘛！所以行政院不是憲法解釋單位。"],["卓院長榮泰：當然不是。"],["黃委員珊珊：大家說國會改革擴權，但我們認為的國會改革是希望老實說真話。我想問一下院長，在憲法層次裡面，憲法增修條文規定，我們決議的法律案你認為有窒礙難行的時候，你可以提出覆議案。那什麼是你認為的窒礙難行？還是你們現在的理由是「違憲」，這就等於窒礙難行？"],["卓院長榮泰：違憲是當中的一部分。所謂依法行政，這個「法」當然就指憲法跟一般的法律。"],["黃委員珊珊：好，所以你認為違法就窒礙難行。現在的問題是，剛剛你也承認了嘛，我們憲法的解釋權在誰？是憲法法庭。"],["卓院長榮泰：對，憲法法庭。"],["黃委員珊珊：是憲法法庭在解釋憲法，不是由民進黨的立法院黨團總召或者是行政院院長來解釋，你同意嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：同意。"],["黃委員珊珊：是！所以我在立法院、我也才剛剛來了5個月，但是我常常聽到一句話就是：只要在野黨通過的法案都是毀憲亂政。"],["卓院長榮泰：不一定是這樣子。"],["黃委員珊珊：我聽到啊！我至少在這邊立過幾個法，只要提出法案就被說是毀憲亂政，尤其是最近的財劃法，又聽到毀憲亂政的說法。院長，我本來希望在總質詢的時候跟你討論財劃法，你認為在野黨提出財劃法的修正案是毀憲亂政嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：嗯……"],["黃委員珊珊：是還是不是？"],["卓院長榮泰：要看內容而言。"],["黃委員珊珊：好，要看內容。同樣的法案、國會改革的法案，民進黨提出非常多次，剛剛院長已經說了，行政院不是違憲審查機關，沒有憲法解釋權，民主進步黨的立法院總召也不是憲法解釋機關，以後請不要用「違憲亂政」來形容立法院所提的每一個福國利民的法案。你做得到嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：但是行政院……"],["黃委員珊珊：你可以約束這些人嗎？至少可以約束行政院嘛！"],["卓院長榮泰：行政院是憲政機關……"],["黃委員珊珊：是！"],["卓院長榮泰：我們對於在憲法的權力被剝奪了、被侵害了，或是被破壞了……"],["黃委員珊珊：我同意，但是我要說的是……"],["卓院長榮泰：我們都有義務提出來救濟……"],["黃委員珊珊：你不是違憲審查機關，你同意嘛！對不對？"],["卓院長榮泰：我們都有義務提出憲法上的救濟跟一般法律的救濟。"],["黃委員珊珊：我們希望行政院不要自詡為違憲審查機關。"],["卓院長榮泰：不是，行政院不是。"],["黃委員珊珊：好，接下來我想問的是，這是民進黨長期的主張，蔡英文總統2015年12月8日在臉書發文，提到要落實建立聽證調查制度，強化監督能量。這是民進黨長期主張。我想請問院長，這也是您的信仰嗎？你認同嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：對，讓國會更有效率，讓行政院跟立法院一同來努力，這是國家、國人共同的希望。"],["黃委員珊珊：是。這次的覆議案裡面，你們覆議了全部，所以你知道裡面有幾條是民進黨的版本嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：就我所知道的，都是一些程序上的規定。"],["黃委員珊珊：所以這一篇你也要覆議嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：全部覆議！因為我只能……"],["黃委員珊珊：全部覆議？所以民進黨的版本你也覆議？"],["卓院長榮泰：因為公法學者專家跟我們的討論認為，我們必須就全部來做覆議，而不是部分條文。"],["黃委員珊珊：錯！立法院職權行使法裡面規定可以就一部分來覆議。"],["卓院長榮泰：但是我們決定全部來覆議。"],["黃委員珊珊：所以也就是說，行政院打臉民進黨的版本。民進黨的版本是針對書面回復從20天降為10天，你認為窒礙難行，是嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：這個如果有機會討論的話，是要維持這個案子……"],["黃委員珊珊：所以民進黨版本你也覺得窒礙難行？"],["卓院長榮泰：我們尊重！"],["黃委員珊珊：好，窒礙難行，都是窒礙難行！","我剛剛聽到您跟前面幾位委員的詢答，說行政院版本的這些圖卡是你的心情，我很詫異，院長，你已經不能有心情，你就是院長，你是最高行政首長，你要對全民負責，所以相關的法案……"],["卓院長榮泰：昨天晚上……"],["黃委員珊珊：相關的理由都必須要非常謹慎。"],["卓院長榮泰：昨天晚上我有一個影片，那也是我的心情。"],["黃委員珊珊：好，那是你個人的部分，但是你現在可能是一個行政首長。我想問一下，民進黨已經執政2次，從陳水扁總統8年到蔡英文總統8年，請問這2個8年民進黨有提出任何國會改革的版本嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：應該是有提出。"],["黃委員珊珊：如果你覺得不好，那又是你的信念，民進黨提過嗎？在他們2次的執政，尤其是蔡英文總統8年完全執政的情況下，有沒有提過相關的版本？"],["卓院長榮泰：應該是有討論到相關的版本或提出相關的版本。"],["黃委員珊珊：你剛剛說這個法條不好，你要不要提出更好的版本？為什麼這次民進黨也提出國會改革的版本，在立法院職權行使法裡面也沒有國會聽證調查制度的版本呢？"],["卓院長榮泰：如果是一個……"],["黃委員珊珊：那時候你還沒有到行政院，我可以理解。"],["卓院長榮泰：如果是國會改革的版本，應該不宜由行政院來提出。"],["黃委員珊珊：是，不能由行政院提出，但是可以由行政院覆議嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：因為它牽扯到機關、法人、團體、人民……"],["黃委員珊珊：所以就是矛盾嘛！如果院長剛剛說這個法條不好，覆議案沒有通過，總統公布，就可以修法，你們要不要提修法版本？"],["卓院長榮泰：應該還是從大院裡面自己來……"],["黃委員珊珊：還是你只想……"],["卓院長榮泰：覆議！覆議裡面來做文字上的調整、法條上的調整……"],["黃委員珊珊：覆議只有Yes or No，覆議沒有辦法修正條文，修正條文要另外提修法案，我想這個相關的程序……"],["卓院長榮泰：可以再……"],["黃委員珊珊：你們可以提啊，不需要浪費國家資源！"],["卓院長榮泰：委員認為是行政院來提嗎？這個不宜吧！"],["黃委員珊珊：我希望院長，如果你有更好的法條，就拿出來，大家可以繼續往下走，我想人民都在看，但是用一些情緒性的字眼或者是說用一些故意去抹黑的字眼，我覺得不宜啦！"],["卓院長榮泰：並沒有。"],["黃委員珊珊：我現在就要問你，到底有沒有抹黑？院長，我們都是為人父母，你認為說謊是正確的嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：我再說一次，說謊對所有人來講是人格自殺。"],["黃委員珊珊：從小到大，我們都被爸爸、媽媽、老師教不能說謊，對吧？"],["卓院長榮泰：是。"],["黃委員珊珊：在學校不能說謊、在職場不能說謊、在法院作證不能說謊，因為有偽證罪，接下來我要跟你說，你們說這個是不明確的法律概念，來！部長，你要上來請上來，時間暫停。我現在跟你講的就是，您是全國最高的行政首長，我今天只跟你談公務員，官員不說謊，對行政院來說是窒礙難行嗎？你說很困難，因為這個是不明確的法律條文，這是刑法第一百六十八條，刑法第一百六十八條，只要證人在法庭上對案情有關的重要事項為虛偽陳述，這個法律已經從民國23年到現在。部長，請問這裡面的虛偽陳述有哪一點是不明確的法律概念？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這個是有一個待證的事實存在，我想我們都是唸法律的，第一百六十八條是處罰證人的規定。"],["黃委員珊珊：這一條有沒有不確定的法律概念嘛？虛偽陳述是不確定的法律概念嗎？是嗎？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這個是……"],["黃委員珊珊：檢察官已經用這條用了多久了，法官用這條用了多久了。"],["鄭部長銘謙：第一百六十八條是一個實行很久的法律……"],["黃委員珊珊：沒錯。"],["鄭部長銘謙：而且這是證人他陳述他親身經驗的一個事實。"],["黃委員珊珊：是的。"],["鄭部長銘謙：所以有一個客觀真實的存在。"],["黃委員珊珊：你認為公務員陳述他經歷的真實事實，是可以說謊嗎？"],["鄭部長銘謙：所以這有一個虛偽，但是我們在國會的改革法案裡面，立法院職權行使法這裡面的虛偽是一個不確定的概念，而且是言人人殊。"],["黃委員珊珊：怎麼樣不確定？"],["鄭部長銘謙：他沒有一個客觀的、待證的事實存在，我想我講待證事實存在，委員應該很清楚，我們都是唸法律的。"],["黃委員珊珊：好，我希望你不要搶我的時間。第二個，院長，很簡單，這不是不明確的法律概念，是已經用了快百年的一條法條。"],["卓院長榮泰：部長已經說明了。"],["黃委員珊珊：最重要的是，我認為你是最高行政所長，不說謊在立法院是窒礙難行的嗎？你告訴我這句話，是還是不是？"],["卓院長榮泰：不說謊是每一個人自我內心、自我的要求。"],["黃委員珊珊：是，所以官員不說謊是最基本的要求，不是嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：官員更應該不說謊，但是誰來判斷，要有一個待證事項的判斷。"],["黃委員珊珊：所以這個案子在刑法上面，調查者是檢察官，是你法務部所轄的檢察署，判斷者是法官，不是立法委員，請不要再以訛傳訛。"],["卓院長榮泰：但新的修法裡面是有這樣的行為的。"],["黃委員珊珊：對，但是虛偽陳述不是不明確法律概念，我再強調一次，這個法已經用了上百年。"],["鄭部長銘謙：不過虛偽陳述的前提，必須有一個客觀待證的事實存在。"],["黃委員珊珊：我再講，所以你檢察官要去查啊！立法委員移送給你，就不查了嗎？你不查，那交給你，刑法要做什麼呢？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這是屬於司法權的範圍，但不是國會立委行使調查權的範圍。"],["黃委員珊珊：我們說移給地檢署來調查，有沒有虛偽陳述，地檢署檢察官比立法委員更有經驗、法官更有判斷，這是依法行事。下一條，官員出席質詢，提供……"],["卓院長榮泰：但是立法院的決定不能用表決的方式啊！"],["黃委員珊珊：我們沒有要表決，我們把它移送，任何人都可以告發，不是嗎？如果今天這是條公訴罪……"],["卓院長榮泰：我會連署經過表決嗎？"],["黃委員珊珊：一般百姓知道那個人在說謊，他就可以拿去法院做偽證罪的告發不是嗎？同樣的，有人拿出資料證明這個人在國會說謊，他也可以拿去告發，不是嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：為什麼要透過表決的方式？"],["黃委員珊珊：沒有要透過表決的方式。"],["卓院長榮泰：院會決定。"],["黃委員珊珊：因為這是刑法，這條是公訴罪。"],["卓院長榮泰：院會決定把它送……"],["黃委員珊珊：院會移送，就像所有調查委員會移送某某給廉政署一樣的道理。院長，不要再說跟院會有關，誰都可以移送。"],["卓院長榮泰：這個就是對於不確定的行為，把不確定行為用來表決啊！"],["黃委員珊珊：最後，院長，我再請教，最近我常常聽到說只要增加預算就是違憲，你認為嗎？立法委員只要增加預算就是違憲，你同意嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：憲法上對國會的權責是有類似規定的。"],["黃委員珊珊：你同意就對了？"],["主席：謝謝黃委員，謝謝卓院長。","下一位請賴委員惠員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":372,"meet_id":"全院委員會-11-1-1","speakers":["韓國瑜","江啟臣","陳昭姿","王定宇","徐巧芯","黃珊珊","賴惠員","葉元之","莊瑞雄","林德福","黃捷","王育敏","郭國文","柯志恩","李坤城","李彥秀","蘇巧慧","黃健豪","吳沛憶","牛煦庭","王世堅","吳宗憲","陳俊宇","謝衣鳯","沈伯洋","翁曉玲"],"page_start":301,"meetingDate":["2024-06-20"],"gazette_id":"1136001","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1136001_00007","1136001_00008"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期第1次全院委員會會議紀錄","content":"審查「立法院職權行使法」修正部分條文、「中華民國刑法」增訂第五章之一章名及第一百四十\n一條之一條文等覆議案","agenda_id":"1136001_00005"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2.56221875,"end":5.0259687500000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":5.0259687500000005,"end":5.85284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":13.615343750000001,"end":14.189093750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":14.442218750000002,"end":18.05346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":18.39096875,"end":22.79534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":23.21721875,"end":24.044093750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":24.36471875,"end":28.12784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":28.54971875,"end":29.089718750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":29.309093750000002,"end":31.671593750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":31.890968750000003,"end":32.51534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":32.66721875,"end":33.47721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":34.10159375,"end":35.89034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":36.244718750000004,"end":36.81846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":36.90284375,"end":40.61534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":41.610968750000005,"end":43.619093750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":44.64846875,"end":49.15409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":49.44096875,"end":51.14534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":51.36471875,"end":52.596593750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":53.18721875,"end":55.836593750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":56.20784375,"end":58.266593750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":58.67159375000001,"end":59.93721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":60.32534375,"end":63.97034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":64.25721875,"end":66.68721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":66.82221875,"end":68.76284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":69.10034375000001,"end":70.09596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":70.87221875,"end":72.23909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":72.74534375,"end":75.74909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":76.57596875,"end":77.47034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":76.60971875,"end":78.68534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":78.28034375,"end":87.64596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":87.69659375,"end":88.06784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":88.47284375000001,"end":89.51909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":89.56971875,"end":92.32034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":92.72534375000001,"end":98.02409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":98.22659375,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or no覆議沒有辦法修正條文修正條文要另外提修法案我想這個相關的程序你們可以提啊不需要浪費國家資源"},{"start":354.169,"end":376.028,"text":"我希望,院長,如果你有更好的法條,就拿出來,大家可以繼續往下走。我想人民都在看,但是用一些情緒性的字眼,或者是說用一些故意去抹黑的字眼,我覺得不宜啦。如果,我現在就要問你啦,到底有沒有抹黑?院長,我們都是為人父母,我們認為,你認為說謊是正確的嗎?"},{"start":379.927,"end":405.959,"text":"我再說一次說謊說謊是所有人的人格自殺從小到大我們都被爸爸媽媽老師教不能說謊對吧是在學校不能說謊在職場不能說謊在法院作證不能說謊因為有偽證罪接下來我要跟你說你們說這個不明確的法律概念來部長你要上來請站來時間暫停"},{"start":410.796,"end":430.967,"text":"我現在跟你講的就是我們希望您是全國最高的行政首長我今天只跟你談公務員官員不說謊對行政員來說是至愛難行嗎你說很困難因為這個不明確的法律條文這是刑法168條刑法168條只要證人在法庭上對案情有關的重要事項為虛偽陳述"},{"start":433.994,"end":454.176,"text":"這一點,這個法律已經民國23年到現在。部長,請問這裡面有哪一個虛偽陳述,有哪一點是不明確的法律概念?這個是有一個代證的一個事實,一個存在。我想我們都念法律。168條是因為這是指法證明的有規定。這一條有沒有不確定的法律概念嗎?虛偽陳述是不確定的法律概念嗎?是嗎?"},{"start":455.946,"end":462.512,"text":"檢察官已經用這條用了多久了?法官用這條用了多久了?而且這是一個證人他陳述他親身經驗的一個事實所以有一個客觀真實的存在所以這個有一個虛偽"},{"start":474.723,"end":474.903,"text":"主席"},{"start":492.717,"end":507.053,"text":"院長很簡單這不是不明確的法律概念已經用了上快百年的一條法條最重要的是我認為你是最高行政首長不說謊在立法院是至愛難行的嗎你告訴我這句話"},{"start":508.046,"end":508.947,"text":"但新的修法裡面是有這樣的行為的"},{"start":534.191,"end":563.243,"text":"對,但是虛偽陳述不是不明確法律概念,我再講掉一次,政法已經用了…不過虛偽陳述的一個前提必須有一個客觀的一個帶重的一個事實的一個存在。我再講,所以你檢察官要去查啊,立法委員移送給你就不查了嗎?你不查那交給你刑法要做什麼呢?這是屬於司法權的一個範圍,但應該不是國會那個這個立委刑事權調查權的一個範圍。所以,我們說以給地檢署來調查,有沒有虛偽陳述地檢署檢察官比立法委員更有經驗,法官更有判斷,這是依法行事。"},{"start":563.903,"end":587.092,"text":"下一條官員出席質詢但這個在立法院的決定不能用表決的方式啊我們沒有表決我們把它移售任何人都可以告發不是嗎如果今天這是條公訴罪一般百姓知道那個人在說謊他就可以拿去法院做偽證罪的告發不是嗎同樣的有人拿出資料證明這個人在國會說謊他也可以拿去告發不是嗎為什麼要透過表決的方式"},{"start":587.372,"end":610.307,"text":"沒有要透過表決的方式,因為這是刑法,這條是公職權。院會移送,就像所有調查委員會移送某某調查委員會給廉政署一樣的道理,院長。不要再說跟院會有關,誰都可以移送。好最後,院長我再請教,最近我常常聽到說只要增加預算就是違憲,你認為嗎?"},{"start":612.472,"end":628.154,"text":"立法委員只要增加預算就是違憲立法上對國會的權責是有類似的規定的好謝謝黃委員好謝謝卓院長下一位請賴委員會員"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}