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09:55:13","會議時間":"2024-06-20T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"第11屆第1會期第1次全院委員會會議（事由：審查「立法院職權行使法」修正部分條文、「中華民國刑法」增訂第五章之一章名及第一百四十一條之一條文等覆議案。）","gazette":{"lineno":332,"blocks":[["賴委員惠員：（9時44分）謝謝主席，有請院長。"],["主席：請院長備詢。"],["卓院長榮泰：賴委員好。"],["賴委員惠員：早安，我想在這裡，要跟院長鼓勵，也跟我們整個行政團隊加油，站在這個地方，這個地方是非常錯置的、錯亂的一個地方，四天半是哪些人占據了主席臺、是哪一位主席裁示可以舉手表決？讓我們的民主倒退了三十幾年。院長，我想覆議案的七大理由，這麼一個七大理由，因為公文有公文的格式，跟民眾溝通，為了讓人民理解，所以用字遣詞會有所不同，但本質上不會改變，這根本就是常識的問題，因為有些人的家人、有些委員的家人就是在做詐騙，所以他認為大家都是在詐騙這一個社會，這個是讓我們非常心痛的。院長，你當過立委，你知道這一屆的立委，其實空前的誇張，我們在排隊要簽到會莫名其妙被咆哮，我們甚至在委員會裡頭會被藐視，本席認為在談國會改革之前，我們應該要先用鏡子照照自己，應該要禁止咆哮、禁止藐視同事，從這個國會改革開始。院長，我們都知道，在憲法賦予立法院的權責，在釋字第585號的議決文裡頭，我們希望立法院在議決預算、法律的時候，有調查權來輔佐，可是當我們看到這些號稱改革的人，他們說修法是為了追查弊案，如果要追查弊案，是不是就請他們去參加司法特考呢？其實我想立委是可以有調查權，但是絕對不能侵害民主的體制跟人民，院長的看法是怎麼樣？"],["卓院長榮泰：當然，我們在釋字第585號裡面的解釋，是有一定程度的調查、調閱或是相關的權力，但是它一定有受到限制。"],["賴委員惠員：對。"],["卓院長榮泰：對於行政特權、對於一些國家的機密等等，一定有受到相當的限制，這個限制也應該落實在每一個條文裡面來，而不是只抄前面一段。"],["賴委員惠員：院長，這一段時間，我們跑很多地方的行程，大部分都是端午節跟畢業典禮，端午節我們看到的是在社區裡頭的長輩，而在學校的畢業典禮，我們看到的是青壯年的這些年輕家長們。其實在本席的選區裡頭，有很多人告訴我，他們說你們要回去跟卓院長說、你們要回去跟賴清德說加油啊！要加油！不然臺灣就要沒了。我每次聽到這樣一個鼓勵的聲音的時候，其實我們的內心，我個人內心非常的痛苦，大家有看到這四天半，很多人不會告訴我們不要去打架，他們是告訴我們說你們一定要站起來、挺上來。院長，在你記憶所及裡面，小英總統前八年的執政，因為有一個次長因弊案而入獄，如果廉政署跟警政署的辦事不力，那怎麼會讓民進黨的這一些政務官都安全下莊呢？所以我覺得整個民眾黨跟國民黨，他們是先捏拿了一個貪腐的假象，再假借查弊案來擴權，這是一個輸不起的修法。另外我再請問院長，你支持不支持總統來立法院即問即答呢？"],["卓院長榮泰：這是總統在憲法上的權力，如果總統能夠來，我想也是創下一個相當好的民主憲政，但是我無法替總統回答，我認為民選的總統接受國會對他依照憲法上的互動，應該是可以讓它成為一個正常的事情。"],["賴委員惠員：好。院長，我再請教你，總統在憲法上面有沒有義務來立法院備詢呢？"],["卓院長榮泰：立法院每年在集會的時候，「得」邀請總統來做國情報告，文字上面寫得非常清楚，當時立法的精神以及憲法的設計，就是總統應立法院的要求，他可以來，但絕對不是一項定期的義務，而且必須是即問即答。"],["賴委員惠員：沒有錯。院長，你講得非常清楚「沒有義務」，他沒有義務到立法院來備詢，是沒有義務的喔！這樣的修法根本就是非常明顯的違憲。為什麼藍、白選前合不了，輸了就狼狽為奸，他們就要一起修法做太上皇，為什麼？總統就是選輸了嘛！所以他們要修法做太上皇，這是本席最直覺的感覺。","院長，你應該熟讀了國會的擴權法案，職權相符是常識，可是在國會的擴權法案中，我們看到立法院對行政部門的約束，我們卻沒有看到立法院對自己的自我約束，這是一個想擴權又不願意負責的修法，不知道院長的看法是怎麼樣？"],["卓院長榮泰：確實，在這個新的修法當中，我們詳閱了裡面的條文，它是創設了很多過去少見的權力，也是沒有的權力，它可以把它自己當作是一個法院、是一個檢察官，這樣的方式，我想對於五院的體制跟憲政的分立，絕對是一個很不好的侵害跟迫害。"],["賴委員惠員：是，所以院長，我剛才一直在講，這是一個非常錯置的地方。當很多人在10分鐘裡頭，不斷地提到習近平、提到香港的大會堂，為什麼我們不可以講？未來如果我們讓這個修法、這樣子擴權的修法通過的話，臺灣的民主即將被沒收，這個是我們擔心的啊！我不知道院長你的看法是怎樣？"],["卓院長榮泰：我們不希望臺灣的民主被不民主破壞，不希望臺灣的言論自由被言論不自由破壞，所以我們捍衛的是這裡的憲政跟我們的自由、民主、人權。"],["賴委員惠員：是。所以院長，你也擔心臺灣的民主危機，當我們臺灣在國際地位屹立不搖、站穩腳步的時候，我們的科技業是全世界最大的經濟源頭的時候，如果還要歸咎我們的民主體制是有問題的，如果我們不藉著這些青鳥、這些公民社會監督這些濫權立委的時候，用憲法的五權分立，讓憲法機構能獨立運作又相互制衡的時候，如果我們讓立法權獨大的話，讓憲政機構權力失衡的時候，院長，我們大家是擔心的，我相信你也會是擔心的。"],["卓院長榮泰：我更為一般人民擔心。"],["賴委員惠員：更為一般人民擔心，沒有錯。所以本席在這裡要特別、特別跟院長提醒，就像我們南部的鄉親一直在講，我再重複一次，每次聽到這樣的話，我就很難過，他們都叫賴清德總統「清德仔」，他們現在也叫你「卓院長」欸！他們說你要跟「卓仔」講，要硬起來啊！這是我們最通俗的臺灣話。"],["卓院長榮泰：是。"],["賴委員惠員：其實這個裡頭承載了滿滿的肯定和滿滿的託付，院長，我聽了很不捨，所以我每一次到立法院，當我們每一天來來去去坐高鐵，早上到立法院委員會質詢完畢以後，我們又回到地方的時候，其實我們心裡頭都是感動的。我們都背負著10萬票的民意到立法院來為我們的鄉親打拚，我們看到了這麼錯置的立法院，當我們非常難過的時候，我們不知道要怎麼樣回去跟鄉親講，就是有一群人不要讓臺灣好。","好，院長，我最後再請教你，國民黨已經進化成一個獨裁的怪獸了，10年前有318的學運運動，有公民的社會力量讓國民黨可以停下親中賣臺的腳步；10年後的青鳥運動，國民黨跟民眾黨竟然可以一笑置之，還強行通過了一個擴權的法案。院長，我在這裡請問你，如果傅崐萁今天對你提出不信任案的話，你願意用你的政治生命來捍衛臺灣的民主體制嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：當然願意用所有的力量與生命來捍衛臺灣的憲政體制及人民的基本權利。"],["賴委員惠員：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝賴委員，謝謝卓院長。","下一位請葉委員元之發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":372,"meet_id":"全院委員會-11-1-1","speakers":["韓國瑜","江啟臣","陳昭姿","王定宇","徐巧芯","黃珊珊","賴惠員","葉元之","莊瑞雄","林德福","黃捷","王育敏","郭國文","柯志恩","李坤城","李彥秀","蘇巧慧","黃健豪","吳沛憶","牛煦庭","王世堅","吳宗憲","陳俊宇","謝衣鳯","沈伯洋","翁曉玲"],"page_start":301,"meetingDate":["2024-06-20"],"gazette_id":"1136001","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1136001_00007","1136001_00008"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期第1次全院委員會會議紀錄","content":"審查「立法院職權行使法」修正部分條文、「中華民國刑法」增訂第五章之一章名及第一百四十\n一條之一條文等覆議案","agenda_id":"1136001_00005"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":11.016593750000002,"end":14.00346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":14.290343750000002,"end":15.42096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":23.38596875,"end":24.01034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":24.33096875,"end":24.92159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":25.76534375,"end":31.739093750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":32.81909375,"end":38.30346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":39.602843750000005,"end":43.079093750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":43.58534375,"end":47.66909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":48.17534375,"end":51.12846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":52.377218750000004,"end":52.84971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":53.524718750000005,"end":56.76471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":57.18659375,"end":60.00471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":60.34221875,"end":61.034093750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":61.337843750000005,"end":64.24034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":64.34159375,"end":68.03721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":68.44221875000001,"end":71.19284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":71.73284375,"end":73.40346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":74.26409375,"end":76.45784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":77.01471875,"end":81.85784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":82.00971875,"end":86.24534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":86.90346875,"end":88.57409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":89.11409375000001,"end":89.55284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":89.97471875000001,"end":93.80534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":93.99096875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50.851,"text":"四天半是哪些人佔據了主席台是哪一位主席才是說可以舉手表決讓我們的民主倒退了三十幾年"},{"start":52.438,"end":72.95,"text":"院長,我想一個覆議案的七大理由,這麼一個七大理由,因為我們公文有公文的一個格式,跟民眾溝通有讓人民理解,所以用字遣詞會有所不同,但本質上不會改變。"},{"start":74.575,"end":94.862,"text":"這根本就是常識的問題因為有些人的家人有些委員的家人就是在做詐騙所以他認為大家都是在詐騙這個社會這個是讓我們非常心痛的院長你當過立委你知道這一屆的立委其實空前的誇張"},{"start":97.188,"end":121.959,"text":"我們在排隊要簽到會莫名其妙被咆哮我們甚至在委員會裡頭會被藐視本席認為就是說在談國會改革之前我們應該要先用鏡子照照自己應該要禁止咆哮禁止藐視同事從這個國會改革開始"},{"start":126.005,"end":151.81,"text":"院長我們都知道就是說在憲法賦予立法院的一個前者在4至585裡頭的議決文裡頭我們希望立法院在議決預算在法律的時候有調查權來輔佐可是當我們看到這些號稱改革的人他們說修法是為了追查弊案要追查弊案那是不是就請他們去參加司法特考"},{"start":153.686,"end":173.387,"text":"其實我想立委是可以有調查權,那絕對不能侵害民主的體制跟人民。院長你的看法是怎麼樣?當然我們在4至5、8、5號裡面的解釋,是有一定程度的調查、調閱或是相關的權利,但是他一定有受到限制。"},{"start":174.428,"end":200.008,"text":"對一定有受到限制對於行政特權對於一些國家的機密等等一定有受到相當的限制那這個限制也應該落實在每一個條文上面裡面來而不是只抄前面一段院長這一段時間我們參加很多那個地方的跑很多地方的行程大部分都是端午節跟畢業典禮端午節我們看到的是在社區裡頭的長輩"},{"start":203.157,"end":224.039,"text":"然後在學校的畢業典禮,我們看到的是青壯年的這些年輕的家長們。其實在本席的選區裡頭,有很多人告訴我,他們說,你要回去跟卓院長說,你要回去跟大廚說,加油啊,要加油,不然台灣這要沒了。"},{"start":225.916,"end":244.83,"text":"我每次聽到這樣的一個鼓勵的聲音的時候,其實我們的內心,我個人內心非常的痛苦。大家有看到這四天半,很多人他們不會告訴我們說,他們是告訴我們說,你們一定要站起來,挺上來。"},{"start":246.072,"end":268.294,"text":"院長,在你記憶首集,小英總統的前八年的一個執政,因為有一個次長因弊案而入獄。如果民政署跟警政署的辦事不力,那怎麼會讓民進黨的這一些政務官都安全下莊呢?"},{"start":270.782,"end":292.279,"text":"所以我覺得這個整個民眾黨跟國民黨他們是先捏拿了一個貪腐的假象再假借就是查弊案來擴權這個是一個輸不起的一個修法然後另外我再請問院長你支持不支持就是總統來立法院急問急答呢"},{"start":293.463,"end":317.64,"text":"這是總統在憲法上的權利,如果總統能夠來,我想也是創下一個相當好的民主憲政,但我無法替總統回答。但是我認為民選的總統接受國會對他依照憲法上的互動,應該是一個可以讓他成為一個正常的事情。好,院長,我再請教你,總統在憲法上面有沒有義務來立法院備詢啊?"},{"start":319.804,"end":337.303,"text":"立法院每年在集會的時候得邀請總統來做國情報告是文字上面寫得非常清楚當時立法的精神以及憲法的設計就是總統應立法院的要求他可以來他可以來但是絕對不是一項定期的義務而且必須是急問急答"},{"start":337.483,"end":360.27,"text":"沒有錯 院長你講得非常清楚沒有義務沒有義務到立法院來備詢是沒有義務的那這樣的修法根本就是非常明顯就是違憲那為什麼藍白選前合不了輸了就藍白為奸呢他們就要一起來修法做太上皇"},{"start":361.03,"end":377.211,"text":"是怎樣,總統都算數啊嘛,所以他們要修法做太上皇,這是本席的一個最直接的感覺。院長,你應該首讀國會的擴前法案,之前相輔的這個是常識啊。"},{"start":378.072,"end":395.229,"text":"那可是在國會的擴權法案中我們看到立法院對行政部門的一個約束我們沒有看到行政院對我自己的自我約束這個是一個想擴權又不願意負責的一個修法不知道院長你的看法是怎麼樣"},{"start":396.09,"end":417.231,"text":"其實在這個新的修法當中,我們祥悅了這個裡面的條文,它是創設了很多過去少見的權利,也是沒有的權利。它可以把它自己當作是一個法院,是一個檢察官,這樣的方式,我想對於這個五院的體制跟憲政的分立,是絕對是一個很不好的侵害跟破壞。"},{"start":417.731,"end":446.037,"text":"是,所以院長我剛才一直在講這是一個非常錯字的地方當很多人十分鐘裡頭他不斷的提到了是習近平提到的是香港的大會堂為什麼我們不可以講未來如果我們讓這一個修法這樣子擴全的修法通過的話台灣的民主即將被沒收"},{"start":447.521,"end":461.183,"text":"這個是我們擔心的,我不知道院長你的看法是怎樣?我們不希望台灣的民主被不民主破壞,不希望台灣的言論自由被言論不自由破壞,所以我們捍衛的是這裡的憲政跟我們的自由民主人權。"},{"start":462.239,"end":480.744,"text":"是,所以院長你也擔心台灣的民主危機,當我們台灣在國際地位屹立不搖的站穩腳步的時候,我們的科技業是全世界最大最大的一個經濟的一個源頭的時候,如果我們還要去歸咎我們的民主體制是"},{"start":481.684,"end":508.26,"text":"有問題的,如果我們不藉著就是這些青鳥,這些公民社會監督,這些濫權的立委的時候,有憲法的五權分立,讓憲法機構能獨立運作又相互制衡的時候,如果我們讓立法權獨大的話,讓憲政的機構的權力失衡的時候,院長我們大家是擔心的,我相信你也會是擔心的。我更為一般人民擔心。"},{"start":508.76,"end":528.774,"text":"更為一般人民擔心沒有錯所以這個就是說本席在這裡要特別特別就是跟院長提醒就像我們南部的鄉親他一直在講我再重複一次我每次聽到這樣的話我就很難過他們叫賴清德總統,他們都叫他親中啊欸,他們現在也叫你倒硬中欸他說你要幫他倒硬啊啊他硬起來啊"},{"start":536.158,"end":548.392,"text":"要硬起來啊這是我們最通俗的台灣話其實這個裡頭承載的就是滿滿的一個肯定滿滿的一個託付啊 院長聽到這裡不敢"},{"start":552.222,"end":576.573,"text":"所以我們每一次到立法院當我們每一天來來去去坐高鐵早上到立法院委員會執行完畢以後我們回到地方的時候其實我們心裡頭都是感動的我們都是背負著一個十萬票的一個名義到立法院來為我們的鄉親打拚的那我們看到一個這麼挫折的一個立法院"},{"start":577.253,"end":580.857,"text":"國民黨已經進化成一個獨裁的怪獸,十年前有318的一個學運運動,有公民的社會力量讓國民黨"},{"start":598.954,"end":601.055,"text":"當然願意用所有的力量跟生命"},{"start":632.657,"end":633.698,"text":"好,謝謝賴委員。謝謝左院長。下一位請葉委員援資發言。"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}