{"error":false,"id":["154121"],"data":{"IVOD_ID":154121,"IVOD_URL":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154121","日期":"2024-06-20","會議資料":{"會議代碼":"全院委員會-11-1-1","會議代碼:str":"第11屆第1會期第1次全院委員會會議","屆":11,"會期":1,"會次":1,"臨時會會次":null,"種類":"全院委員會","標題":"立法院第11屆第1會期第1次全院委員會會議"},"影片種類":"Clip","開始時間":"2024-06-20T11:00:24+08:00","結束時間":"2024-06-20T11:11:11+08:00","影片長度":"00:10:47","支援功能":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/3ceaf6abec8b4a6d13dcd2b3c5eb81c19dd1cafa7fa6f271c3732e15d6f5e978e033135c01c8457d5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"郭國文","委員發言時間":"11:00:24 - 11:11:11","會議時間":"2024-06-20T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"第11屆第1會期第1次全院委員會會議（事由：審查「立法院職權行使法」修正部分條文、「中華民國刑法」增訂第五章之一章名及第一百四十一條之一條文等覆議案。）","gazette":{"lineno":624,"blocks":[["郭委員國文：（11時）主席，有請卓院長。"],["主席：請卓院長備詢。"],["卓院長榮泰：郭委員好。"],["郭委員國文：院長好，辛苦了。院長，這次行政院提出的覆議案，本席有稍微歸納幾個原則，民主原則、權力分立原則、法律明確性原則、比例原則、正當法律程序等等。很巧的，在本院司法委員會周萬來秘書長的報告內容當中也特別強調，如果針對這個被提名人陳述不實，或者用藐視國會規定處理或移送其他的行政法院調查，方式不一，但是要符合法律明確性、正當法律程序原則、比例原則，這見解跟你都一樣，都跟行政院相同，這樣的情況底下，我們還是很遺憾，通過這一部違憲亂政的立法院職權行使法，可是這部法通過之後，到底藍營敬重的周萬來秘書長所做的提示，他們會不會聽得下去？這幾天我聽他們的質詢內容，還有私底下請教他們，我對於週五覆議案的表決，老實說我是悲觀的，因為私底下我問他們的時候，他們說如果贊成的話，形同於政治自殺，所以我覺得院長可能要有心理準備，即便是周萬來這麼說，即便有百名法律學者連署，但是藍營或者是民眾黨的這群朋友還是執迷不悟啦！在這樣的情況下，我覺得可能我們要面對最壞的打算，就是後面的救濟程序要怎麼進行？人民除了憤怒之外，就如同昨天郭智輝部長所說的科技業很恐慌，其實不只科技業很恐慌啊！各行各業都很恐慌啊！他們隨時都有可能會被調來立法院啦！","我看過過去相關的案例，假設明天覆議失敗的話，總統大約是什麼時候公布呢？總統如果公布的話，他會公布在總統府公報，公報一般而言都是在每週三的時候公布，如果週三公布的話，生效日應該下週五就生效，一旦生效，這一部職權行使法生效日的開始，就是目前國民黨或者民眾黨說要趕快成立某某某某主題調查委員會的開始，簡單的講，就是可以公設刑堂的開始。當他擁有這個法律的時候，你知道目前一些資本市場的金金併也好，或者市場派跟公司派的爭奪，隨時立法院都有介入的可能啦！","所以我想請教一下院長，面對人民的恐慌，你提出覆議案，可是面對人民的不滿，你後續該怎麼辦？我覺得應該讓人民安心啦，院長你應該說一下，到底後續應該要怎麼處理？假設禮拜五，不要用假設，就我個人的推估其實覆議失敗可能性很大，你要怎麼做？你什麼時候提出釋憲？"],["卓院長榮泰：當然如果覆議案沒有辦法順利成立的話，依照憲法行政院要接受，但是我們還有另外憲法上的救濟。"],["郭委員國文：對。"],["卓院長榮泰：但是這個過程，我們還是要跟公法學的學者，還有院內要做一個討論，因為這個還是要經過院會決定。"],["郭委員國文：所以你會在法律生效前提出釋憲，還是法律生效後提出釋憲呢？"],["卓院長榮泰：生效後。"],["郭委員國文：好，生效後提出釋憲，那就是週五以後，你會有一個禮拜的時間。這樣子的話，法律一旦生效後，我發現很可能會有一個空窗期，如果提釋憲之後，釋憲結果出來之前就是一個空窗期，為什麼？應該你們也會同時進行憲法法庭暫時處分的聲請嘛，對不對？"],["卓院長榮泰：沒錯。"],["郭委員國文：如果聲請暫時處分，法官在憲法法庭會確認審查要件是否成立，再進入實質的審查嘛！"],["卓院長榮泰：是。"],["郭委員國文：一旦下個禮拜五生效，到暫時處分裁定出來之前，就是一個很長的空窗期、無法預期的空窗期，對不對？這一段時間的空窗期，我不曉得院長有沒有什麼因應的方式？"],["卓院長榮泰：行政院以及社會都在看我們對憲法的認知跟憲法的遵守，不應該在這個時候做出太多目前大家爭議事項的行為，否則會引起更大的憲政紛爭，甚至引起人民更大的反感，我覺得我們都應該有這樣的共識。"],["郭委員國文：對，院長，我聽得出來你的決心，但是本席還是要適時的提醒，這有兩個空窗期，一個空窗期就是生效之後、憲法法庭裁定之前，我假設他裁定是會凍結，假設是這樣最好的方式；但還有一個是6個月的時效之後，憲法釋字案還沒有出來，這是第二個空窗期，總共有兩個空窗期，面對這兩個空窗期的情況下，我看到在野黨有做了一些討論，他們說：如果要行使調查權，一來立法院要設立調查官，這牽扯到修改組織法的問題；二來他們會跟行政院借調人員來支援。如果國民黨、民眾黨要跟你們借調刑事局、調查局、檢察官，那您同不同意？"],["卓院長榮泰：我們會以行政工作主要的人力規劃跟所有政策推動為主。"],["郭委員國文：所以你的理由是以行政業務過於繁忙，不予同意的意思囉？"],["卓院長榮泰：我會以這樣的思考為優先。"],["郭委員國文：我跟您提一個案例，三一九真調會條例當中的第十一條，真調會可以向行政院借調人員，而行政院機關不能拒絕，可是這個條款在釋字第633號時已經宣告違憲了。院長，這基本上也是違反權力分立跟制衡的原則，如果是這樣子，院長你大可有權依照釋字第633號決定要不要借人，可以拒絕，擺明的拒絕嘛！讓他們沒有行使的空間。"],["卓院長榮泰：委員的提醒讓我們更覺得行政工作還是以行政工作為主，我們只要把自己的工作做好。"],["郭委員國文：行政工作當然是最重要的關鍵，可是你在這個時候要凸顯這部法令的荒謬性嘛，你看！到底立法院大還是行政院大？最近大家都在比大的。另外，人民最關心的不是比大小，人民最重要關心的是，如果他被調到的話，他收到罰單，一來他沒有行政救濟的管道，立法院本身沒有行政救濟的管道，而且也沒有執行的單位，如果人民因沒有繳交文件被處罰10萬元，難道是傅崐萁去要嗎？還是韓國瑜去討？我相信不會輪到江啟臣副院長吧！由誰去催討這個罰款？如果不服，唯一救濟的管道就是司法救濟，司法救濟的管道他還要去哪裡？不論這個被處罰的對象是在臺北、高雄、花蓮、澎湖、金門，都得跑到臺北來打官司，因為要在立法院所在地的行政法院提出耶！你想這樣的立法，一般民眾會接受嗎？","更何況剛剛大家一直在討論的，有好幾個在野的立法委員提到聽證會，聽證權是因為美國沒有質詢權，才會搞一個聽證權，對不對？院長。"],["卓院長榮泰：是。"],["郭委員國文：就你的理解是不是這樣子？"],["卓院長榮泰：沒錯。"],["郭委員國文：其實質詢權如果要比大小，質詢權會比聽證權還小嗎？隨時要調動這些官員都有啊！它只是補充性的、替代性的，怎麼說質詢權都還比較大嘛，對不對？搞一個四不像。最後一分鐘的時間，本席要提醒您，我想最高法院也提出一個抵抗權的作法，抵抗權的部分，基本上是要恢復民主憲政憲法賦予的正當性跟合法性，所以我講白一點，當這個空窗期來臨的時候，接下來的國、眾兩黨一定會不斷的騷擾，院長，你身為行政權的一個代表，我認為，基本上你內心的生態不只是釋憲，你要成為抵抗權的代表，院長，有沒有可能？"],["卓院長榮泰：我首先是實踐憲法上賦予我的權力。再來我要盡到我的政治責任，憲法上的權力是捍衛憲政秩序，政治責任是捍衛人民的基本權利。"],["郭委員國文：你只要是朝對的方向，踩住這個民主體制、維護民主體制的基本立場，全民都會支持你，立法院民進黨黨團也會支持你，柯總召也會提出釋憲，跟你們站在同一陣線，謝謝院長。"],["卓院長榮泰：謝謝委員支持。"],["主席：好，謝謝郭委員，謝謝卓院長。下一位我們請柯志恩委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":372,"meet_id":"全院委員會-11-1-1","speakers":["韓國瑜","江啟臣","陳昭姿","王定宇","徐巧芯","黃珊珊","賴惠員","葉元之","莊瑞雄","林德福","黃捷","王育敏","郭國文","柯志恩","李坤城","李彥秀","蘇巧慧","黃健豪","吳沛憶","牛煦庭","王世堅","吳宗憲","陳俊宇","謝衣鳯","沈伯洋","翁曉玲"],"page_start":301,"meetingDate":["2024-06-20"],"gazette_id":"1136001","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1136001_00007","1136001_00008"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期第1次全院委員會會議紀錄","content":"審查「立法院職權行使法」修正部分條文、「中華民國刑法」增訂第五章之一章名及第一百四十\n一條之一條文等覆議案","agenda_id":"1136001_00005"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":18.39096875,"end":22.20471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":30.06846875,"end":35.78909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":31.148468750000003,"end":31.35096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":36.27846875,"end":44.54721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":45.23909375,"end":54.705968750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":55.38096875,"end":74.17971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":74.97284375000001,"end":79.42784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":79.93409375,"end":81.68909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":82.21221875,"end":83.47784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":83.98409375,"end":86.39721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":86.98784375000001,"end":90.81846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":91.08846875,"end":97.61909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":97.90596875,"end":103.22159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":103.66034375000001,"end":107.15346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":107.37284375,"end":108.65534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":109.61721875,"end":115.40534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":115.84409375000001,"end":116.18159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":116.65409375,"end":117.98721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":118.67909375,"end":119.94471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":120.18096875,"end":127.11659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":127.16721875,"end":127.8759687500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來立法院要設立所謂的調查官調查官這牽扯到所謂的修改組織法的問題二來他會跟行政院借調人員來支援如果國民黨民眾黨要跟你借調刑事局調查局檢察官那您同不同意"},{"start":401.121,"end":413.693,"text":"我們會以行政工作主要的人力規劃跟所有政策推動為主所以你這個理由是說你行政業務過於繁忙所以不予同意的意思囉"},{"start":415.182,"end":436.884,"text":"我會以這樣的思考為優先我其實我跟您提一個案例319這一個徵調會條例當中的第十一條徵調會可以向行政院借調人員而行政院機關不能拒絕可是這個條款在四字號633的時候已經宣告違憲"},{"start":442.613,"end":458.24,"text":"這基本上也是違反權力分立跟制衡的原則啦。如果是這樣子的話,院長你大可說你有權依照這個四字號第633號的部分,可以決定要不要藉人啊?就可以拒絕啊。"},{"start":463.543,"end":487.352,"text":"委員提醒讓我們更覺得行政工作還是以行政工作為主我們只要把自己的工作做好行政工作當然是最重要關鍵可是在這時候你要凸顯這部法令的荒謬性你看到底立法院大還是行政院大最近大家都比大的另外對人民最關心的不是比大小"},{"start":488.174,"end":511.236,"text":"最重要人民關心的部分如果他被調到的話他收到這個罰單一來他沒有行政救濟的管道立法院本身沒有行政救濟的管道而且他也沒有執行的單位的你現在處罰人民十萬元他沒有繳交文件十萬元難道是傅坤祺要去要嗎還是韓國瑜要去討我相信不會輪到江啟臣副院長吧"},{"start":513.257,"end":535.544,"text":"就是說誰去追討這個罰款那如果不服的話唯一救濟的管道就是司法救濟的管道司法救濟的管道他還要去哪裡不論你是被你這個被處罰的對象如果是在台北、高雄、花蓮、澎湖、金門你都得跑到台北來打官司因為立法院所在地行政法院來這邊提出耶你想這個立法院一般的民眾會接受嗎"},{"start":537.315,"end":559.833,"text":"更何況剛剛大家一直討論的一個部分我看到有好幾個在野的這個立法院提到說聽證會聽證權的部分是因為美國沒有執行權才會搞一個聽證權的嘛對不對院長就很理解是不是這樣子其實執行權如果要比大小執行權會比聽證權還小嗎"},{"start":562.955,"end":565.917,"text":"最高法院提出一個抵抗權的做法,抵抗權的部分基本上是要恢復民主憲政、憲法負以正當性和合法性。"},{"start":593.956,"end":611.759,"text":"接下來的國眾兩黨一定會不斷地騷擾我覺得 院長你身為行政權的一個代表我認為你基本上內心的生態不只是要實現你要成為抵抗權的一個代表有沒有可能 院長"},{"start":613.558,"end":638.371,"text":"我首先是實踐憲法上賦予我的權利再來我要盡到我的政治責任憲法上的權利是捍衛憲政秩序政治責任是捍衛人民的基本權利你只要做對的方向踩住這個民主體制維護民主體制的基本立場的話全民都會支持你立法院民進黨黨團會支持你科總會提出事件跟你們站在同一陣線謝謝院長"},{"start":642.252,"end":642.553,"text":"謝謝郭委員、謝謝委員長。"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}