{"error":false,"id":["154123"],"data":{"IVOD_ID":154123,"IVOD_URL":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154123","日期":"2024-06-20","會議資料":{"會議代碼":"全院委員會-11-1-1","會議代碼:str":"第11屆第1會期第1次全院委員會會議","屆":11,"會期":1,"會次":1,"臨時會會次":null,"種類":"全院委員會","標題":"立法院第11屆第1會期第1次全院委員會會議"},"影片種類":"Clip","開始時間":"2024-06-20T11:22:27+08:00","結束時間":"2024-06-20T11:34:11+08:00","影片長度":"00:11:44","支援功能":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/3ceaf6abec8b4a6d1bf7e6932e00b6099dd1cafa7fa6f271c3732e15d6f5e978ed7291032b546b1c5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"李坤城","委員發言時間":"11:22:27 - 11:34:11","會議時間":"2024-06-20T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"第11屆第1會期第1次全院委員會會議（事由：審查「立法院職權行使法」修正部分條文、「中華民國刑法」增訂第五章之一章名及第一百四十一條之一條文等覆議案。）","gazette":{"lineno":702,"blocks":[["李委員坤城：（11時22分）謝謝主席，我們請卓院長。"],["主席：請卓院長備詢。"],["卓院長榮泰：李委員好。"],["李委員坤城：院長好。現在場外還有青鳥運動的朋友們，但因為青鳥飛不進來立法院，所以我們要在立法院裡面為他們來發聲。請教一下院長，因為我昨天聽到你跟許多委員的對話，請教院長，什麼是藐視國會？什麼是反質詢？國民黨說在修法通過之後會告訴人民，但是到目前為止，我們真的都不知道什麼是反質詢、什麼是藐視國會？不過國民黨的總召傅崐萁過去在擔任花蓮縣縣長的時候有示範了相當精采的藐視議會，先請院長看一下影片。","（播放影片）"],["李委員坤城：請教一下院長，你剛剛應該有看到傅崐萁在擔任花蓮縣長時對議會的態度，不是不回答，不然就是議員還在提問的時候他轉頭就走，你認為這樣有沒有藐視議會？"],["卓院長榮泰：不應該學習。"],["李委員坤城：這個是錯誤示範的對象，其實到現在為止我們也不知道什麼叫做藐視國會或什麼叫做反質詢，但是我認為至少傅崐萁在擔任花蓮縣長的時候是相當不尊重議會啦！","本席認為國會改革不是國會擴權，更不是國會自肥，國民黨跟民眾黨聯手修了立法院職權行使法，我認為這是一個擴權法案，如果真的受到人民支持的話，國民黨跟民眾黨的支持度應該會升高，但是現在不升反降，甚至加起來比民進黨的支持度還低，就表示人民認為這不是國會改革法案，而是國會擴權法案嘛！我們看一下藍白綠的支持度的消長就知道了，民眾黨跟國民黨加起來的政黨支持度甚至比民進黨還低啦！所以院長，請教一下，這個以國會改革為名、實際上是國會擴權的法案，院長怎麼看？"],["卓院長榮泰：一般的人民會對這個法案所產生的後遺症感到相當的不安，所以才有這麼多朋友在這段時間一直踴躍的站出來。我們希望我們在國會裡面的努力，能夠讓這些站出來的聲音得到紓解，這個法案能夠有機會重新審視。"],["李委員坤城：院長昨天在臉書上有說，立法院為自己創設權力是侵犯到行政權、司法權、監察權，也侵犯到國人的基本權利，這就是亂政。本席認為擴權法案不僅亂政，還有毀憲，先請教一下院長，這次立法院所通過的國會擴權法案，你認為是在修法還是修憲？"],["卓院長榮泰：這是修立法院裡面的職權行使法，修憲有另外修憲的程序。"],["李委員坤城：對，就是因為他們認為修憲的門檻太高，沒辦法修憲，所以就藉著修法來達到修憲的目的，目前我們中華民國的憲法還是五權憲法，但是這次修法修成立法院獨大，侵犯到行政院、司法院、監察院的權力，然後侵犯到質詢權、調查權、聽證權的行使，這些都違反到憲法權力分立的原則。就這幾項，調查權、聽證權、質詢權，為什麼我說他們是假借修法實際上是想要達到修憲的目的？我先請問一下院長，立法委員有沒有質詢總統的憲法權力？"],["卓院長榮泰：應該沒有質詢的權力，總統依照憲法的規定，得於立法院集會的時候到立法院進行國情報告，但並沒有所謂的質詢。"],["李委員坤城：質詢就是你跟所有部會首長來到立法院做施政報告，施政報告結束後，我們質詢你嘛，對不對？"],["卓院長榮泰：對。"],["李委員坤城：這就是我們監督你、你對我們負責嘛！"],["卓院長榮泰：是。"],["李委員坤城：請教一下，萬一覆議失敗，在釋憲之前，立法院的國民黨跟民眾黨邀請總統到立法院做國情報告，還要備詢，你認為總統要來嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：我無法替總統回答，但是我個人認為，如果在提出釋憲之後，整個社會的焦點、注意力會在釋憲上，希望釋憲的結果，憲法法庭給憲法秩序做一個安定的決定，在此之前如果不宜的行為太多，引起人民的反感會更大。"],["李委員坤城：我是建議，當然最後是由總統決定，但我建議在釋憲結果出來之前總統不宜到立法院來，因為這會破壞憲法上對總統權力的一些規定，也破壞了五權分立的相關規定。再請教一下院長，修法之後是不是任何人都有可能被叫到立法院來做調查或提供文件？人民能不能拒絕到場、拒絕證言或交付文件？有沒有辦法拒絕？"],["卓院長榮泰：照目前新修正條文的內容來看，是有這樣的疑慮，他必須提供文件，來被詢問等等，進行調查、調閱以及聽證，一般人民都有可能受到立法院這樣的要求。"],["李委員坤城：所有的人民都有可能來嘛，所有可能的都會被調來，所以我剛剛看很多國民黨立委說沒有啦，什麼有重大社會關係的人才會來，什麼叫做重大社會關係？他認定你有重大社會關係，你就是有重大社會關係！傅崐萁昨天怎麼講？他說來立法院聽證的民眾都是涉及跟政府相關有勾結，他已有心證了，他認為叫你來，你就是有問題。黃國昌怎麼講？他說臺灣社會無須恐慌，99.9%的人都不會受到影響，問題是誰是那0.1%的人？誰是那2萬3,000人，2.3萬人之一嘛﹗對不對？"],["卓院長榮泰：是。"],["李委員坤城：任何人都有可能會被叫過來，所以，這樣子的修法會不會變成政治上打擊異己的工具？"],["卓院長榮泰：而且很主觀的認定是所謂跟政府相關有勾結的人，這個罪名下得太大了。"],["李委員坤城：對，這就是國民黨和民眾黨，他只要認為你有關係，就可以叫你過來，而且叫你過來你不過來要罰錢，得連次罰，對不對？再請教一下院長，修法之後，立法院可以向司法機關、監察機關要求提供調查中的資料或複本，這樣有沒有違法或違憲？"],["卓院長榮泰：調查中的案件，它相關的卷證也許都在司法機關，如果能夠提供複本的話，那是嚴重侵犯司法機關的權限，就權力分立原則來講，就憲政秩序的設計來講，是絕對不宜的。"],["李委員坤城：釋字729號有講，基於權力分立還有制衡的原則，保障檢察機關獨立行使職權，立法院不得調閱相關的卷證，調閱相關的文件或是與文件內容相同之影本，要經立法院院會的決議，而且其調閱必須跟憲法上賦予立法委員職權上有重大關聯者始得為之，不是隨便都可以調，要跟行使憲法上賦予我們的職權有重大關聯者才可以。所以說，這次修法規定可向司法機關跟監察機關要資料，然後也不用跟立法院行使職權有重大關聯，也不用經過立法院院會的決議，本席認為，這跟釋字第729號相關的解釋精神已經不符了。"],["卓院長榮泰：而且跟國家機關獨立行使職權，受到憲法保障的，還有非立法院所得調查的事務，這是很明確，在釋字585號裡面很清楚的，對於行政首長依其行政權固有的權能，對於可能影響干預行政權部門有運作之虞的，都不能當作被調閱的對象。"],["李委員坤城：是啊！但是現在這個擴權法案通過之後，他其實都可以調，他其實都可以調。再請教院長，在2004年9月，立法院當時有公布一個真調會的條例，就是要在國會裡創設一個準司法權，就是在野黨以監督制衡為名行國會擴權之實，所以才會有後來的釋字585號解釋，其中有違權力分立跟制衡原則，涉及人民基本權利有違正當法律程序的這些條文，都被宣布為違憲的。所以，現在國民黨的黨鞭傅崐萁說要成立國會特偵組，翁曉玲說要成立立法院調查官，都是把立法委員當作檢察官、當作法官，立法院一權獨大。","最後，釋字第585號，大家都已經講過了，本來要援引第585號解釋作為最後的結語，我現在簡單唸一下。國家機關行使權力要受到法的節制，立法院行使憲法所賦予的權力也沒有例外，這是法制原則的基本要求。立法院調查權的行使，依調查事項跟強制方式不同，可能涉及限制多種憲法保障人民的基本權利，所以，立法院行使調查權涉及憲法所保障的人民基本權利，不僅要有法律的依據，且該法律的內容也必須明確，以符合比例原則與正當法律程序。但是我現在看來，現在所通過的這一個擴權法案，完全沒有按照上述585號解釋的精神。謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝李委員，時間到。謝謝卓院長。下一位請李彥秀委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":372,"meet_id":"全院委員會-11-1-1","speakers":["韓國瑜","江啟臣","陳昭姿","王定宇","徐巧芯","黃珊珊","賴惠員","葉元之","莊瑞雄","林德福","黃捷","王育敏","郭國文","柯志恩","李坤城","李彥秀","蘇巧慧","黃健豪","吳沛憶","牛煦庭","王世堅","吳宗憲","陳俊宇","謝衣鳯","沈伯洋","翁曉玲"],"page_start":301,"meetingDate":["2024-06-20"],"gazette_id":"1136001","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1136001_00007","1136001_00008"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期第1次全院委員會會議紀錄","content":"審查「立法院職權行使法」修正部分條文、「中華民國刑法」增訂第五章之一章名及第一百四十\n一條之一條文等覆議案","agenda_id":"1136001_00005"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":16.48409375,"end":18.82971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":19.082843750000002,"end":19.605968750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":19.80846875,"end":20.70284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":27.31784375,"end":27.97596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":27.97596875,"end":28.515968750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":29.140343750000003,"end":38.657843750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":38.96159375,"end":44.51346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":44.867843750000006,"end":45.846593750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":46.049093750000004,"end":47.88846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":48.09096875,"end":49.59284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":49.930343750000006,"end":50.909093750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":50.92596875,"end":53.81159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":54.13221875,"end":59.17784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":59.532218750000006,"end":69.65721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":72.17159375,"end":77.20034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":77.20034375,"end":95.96534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":96.35346875,"end":99.03659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":99.03659375000001,"end":101.36534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":99.05346875000001,"end":99.69471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":101.65221875,"end":103.17096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":103.25534375000001,"end":103.28909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":103.28909375,"end":105.71909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":106.69784375,"end":115.10159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":108.90846875000001,"end":109.70159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":115.42221875000001,"end":115.47284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":115.47284375000001,"end":121.61534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":122.15534375000001,"end":128.83784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":133.44471875000002,"end":134.30534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":135.08159375,"end":136.44846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":136.78596875,"end":137.41034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":138.77721875,"end":140.56596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":141.54471875000002,"end":150.92721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":152.41221875000002,"end":152.81721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":152.91846875000002,"end":154.48784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":155.01096875000002,"end":160.44471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":160.78221875,"end":162.28409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":162.40221875,"end":166.45221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":167.44784375,"end":168.25784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":168.76409375,"end":170.48534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":170.80596875,"end":173.28659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":173.80971875,"end":179.68221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":180.18846875,"end":185.36909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":185.82471875000002,"end":187.57971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":187.81596875000002,"end":192.10221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":192.54096875000002,"end":200.13471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":200.65784375,"end":203.49284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":203.77971875,"end":205.90596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":206.27721875,"end":211.45784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":211.69409375,"end":218.51159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":219.05159375000002,"end":221.71784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":222.52784375000002,"end":227.70846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":228.23159375,"end":228.78846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":229.32846875,"end":230.72909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":231.35346875000002,"end":233.53034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":233.59784375,"end":236.53409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":236.73659375000003,"end":237.49596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":238.44096875000002,"end":241.74846875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":242.22096875000003,"end":243.16596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":243.43596875000003,"end":244.95471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":245.39346875,"end":247.72221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":248.19471875000002,"end":250.75971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":250.94534375,"end":252.98721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":253.02096875,"end":255.26534375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":256.24409375,"end":258.62346875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":258.89346875,"end":263.55096875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":263.70284375,"end":267.02721875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":267.60096875,"end":273.35534375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":273.42284375,"end":278.80596875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":279.73409375,"end":281.38784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":281.79284375000003,"end":285.50534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":285.65721875,"end":286.07909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":286.16346875,"end":286.53471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":286.53471875,"end":286.97346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":286.97346875,"end":287.53034375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":287.53034375000004,"end":287.96909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":287.96909375,"end":288.81284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":288.81284375,"end":288.84659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":288.84659375,"end":288.93096875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":288.93096875000003,"end":288.96471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":288.96471875000003,"end":289.72409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":289.96034375,"end":295.52909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":295.96784375000004,"end":306.83534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":307.34159375,"end":312.50534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":313.07909375,"end":315.61034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":316.11659375,"end":330.37596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":331.18596875000003,"end":339.60659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":339.97784375000003,"end":343.82534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":340.01159375000003,"end":340.85534375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":344.17971875,"end":347.60534375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":348.14534375,"end":363.48471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":363.83909375,"end":365.02034375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":365.74596875000003,"end":369.18846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":369.99846875000003,"end":374.65596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":374.75721875000005,"end":376.51221875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":376.95096875,"end":382.21596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":382.58721875000003,"end":385.82721875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":386.43471875,"end":386.45159375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":386.45159375000003,"end":395.37846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":395.54721875,"end":401.97659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":402.29721875,"end":403.57971875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":403.86659375000005,"end":410.19471875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":410.56596875,"end":412.08471875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":412.42221875,"end":415.34159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":415.99971875,"end":418.69971875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":418.93596875000003,"end":426.22596875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":427.17096875000004,"end":427.77846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":428.04846875000004,"end":430.30971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":430.30971875,"end":430.39409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":430.39409375,"end":431.28846875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":431.28846875000005,"end":431.32221875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":431.35596875000005,"end":431.40659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":431.40659375,"end":431.96346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":431.96346875,"end":441.66659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":442.29096875000005,"end":445.53096875000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":445.91909375,"end":455.67284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":455.97659375,"end":456.97221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":457.34346875000006,"end":459.18284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":459.53721875,"end":465.62909375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":466.21971875,"end":470.82659375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":471.72096875000005,"end":474.37034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":474.96096875,"end":475.56846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":476.07471875000005,"end":480.02346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":480.90096875,"end":485.18721875000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":485.47409375,"end":486.94221875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":487.34721875,"end":495.73409375000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":495.90284375000005,"end":497.20221875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":497.37096875000003,"end":497.96159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":499.04159375,"end":503.31096875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":499.27784375000005,"end":499.85159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":503.64846875,"end":507.54659375000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":509.16659375000006,"end":513.6384687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":513.95909375,"end":519.07221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":519.34221875,"end":520.00034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":520.28721875,"end":524.0165937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":524.7590937500001,"end":525.48471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":525.48471875,"end":525.50159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":525.50159375,"end":525.5859687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":525.5859687500001,"end":525.6028437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":525.6028437500001,"end":525.68721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":525.68721875,"end":526.91909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":527.22284375,"end":532.4709687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":532.7578437500001,"end":558.25596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":558.59346875,"end":560.1797187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":560.7534687500001,"end":563.21721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":564.1453437499999,"end":571.8403437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":572.36346875,"end":578.13471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":578.65784375,"end":582.9778437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":583.1128437500001,"end":596.39346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":596.5959687500001,"end":599.9709687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":599.9709687500001,"end":600.44346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":600.44346875,"end":600.6797187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":600.6797187500001,"end":603.29534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":603.6497187500001,"end":604.66221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":605.25284375,"end":608.20596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":608.22284375,"end":611.3615937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":611.59784375,"end":614.38221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":614.5847187500001,"end":628.5403437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":628.75971875,"end":631.1728437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":631.40909375,"end":631.67909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":632.23596875,"end":635.4084687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":635.8303437500001,"end":643.5759687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":643.74471875,"end":645.90471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":646.03971875,"end":647.03534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":647.28846875,"end":656.3334687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":655.5234687500001,"end":655.72596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":656.60346875,"end":664.5347187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":661.48034375,"end":661.7334687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":662.74596875,"end":663.06659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":664.6528437500001,"end":672.76971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":664.7878437500001,"end":665.58096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":673.05659375,"end":690.2522187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":678.8447187500001,"end":679.51971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":680.19471875,"end":682.43909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":686.0165937500001,"end":687.0290937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":687.38346875,"end":688.0247187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":695.26409375,"end":700.27596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":700.8328437499999,"end":703.7690937500001}],"whisperx":[{"start":16.53,"end":20.672,"text":"好謝謝主席我們請卓院長請卓院長備詢議員好院長好現在場外還有這個青鳥運動的朋友們但是因為青鳥飛不進來立法院所以我們要在立法院裡面為他們來發聲然後請教一下院長因為我昨天有聽到這個你有跟許多的這個委員有對話請教一下院長"},{"start":46.181,"end":69.414,"text":"什麼是藐視國會?那什麼是反質詢?國民黨說在修法通過之後會告訴人民但是到目前為止我們真的都不知道什麼是反質詢什麼是藐視國會不過國民黨的總召傅坤琦過去在當花蓮縣縣長的時候示範了相當精彩的這個藐視議會先請院長看一下影片"},{"start":73.14,"end":79.964,"text":"議會被尋時跟議員針鋒相對這是國民黨團總召傅坤崎擔任花蓮縣長時的影片近來藍白聯手三讀通過藐視國會罪不得反質詢但檢視傅坤崎在當花蓮縣長期間卻常常給議員吃牌頭議員追問2018年花蓮地震善款流向傅坤崎不只搶話還以上對下教訓人請你主持一下好不好"},{"start":101.738,"end":103.62,"text":"另外這一次,雖然收起炮火,但不管議員怎麼問,不回答就是不回答。"},{"start":133.439,"end":133.519,"text":"請教一下院長"},{"start":155.79,"end":166.169,"text":"這個你剛才看到這個傅坤祺還是當花蓮縣長這個對議會的這個態度不是呢不回答那不然就是議員還在問的時候就轉頭就走你認為這樣有沒有表示議會不應該學習"},{"start":169.407,"end":184.464,"text":"這是示範的一個錯誤的一個示範的一個對象那其實到現在為止我們也不知道什麼叫做藐視議會啊藐視國會或是什麼叫反執行但是我認為至少富坤姐在當花蓮縣長的時候是相當不尊重議會啦"},{"start":186.548,"end":211.095,"text":"本席認為,國會改革不是國會擴權,更不是國會自肥。國民黨跟民眾黨聯手修了《立法院職權行使法》,我認為這是一個擴權法案。如果真的受到人民的支持的話,國民黨跟民眾黨的支持度應該會升高,但是現在這個是不升反降,甚至加起來比民進黨的支持度還低。"},{"start":211.955,"end":237.268,"text":"這表示人民認為說這個不是國會改革法案嘛是國會擴權法案嘛我們看一下那個藍白綠的這個支持度的校長你就知道啦民眾黨跟國民黨加起來的政黨支持度甚至比民進黨還低啦那所以這個院長請教一下這個以國會改革為名實際上是名為是國會擴權法案啦院長怎麼看"},{"start":238.479,"end":254.749,"text":"所以一般的人民會對這個法案所產生的後遺症相當的不安所以才有那麼多的朋友這一段時間一直踴躍的站出來但我們希望我們在國會裡面的努力能夠讓這些站出來的聲音得到紓解這個法案能夠有機會重新審視"},{"start":256.958,"end":278.34,"text":"這個院長昨天在臉書上有說,立法院為自己創設權利是侵犯到行政權、司法權、監察權,這也侵犯到國人的基本權利,這就是亂政。那本席認為呢,這個擴權法案呢,不僅亂政,還有毀憲。先請教一下院長,這次立法院所通過的這個國會擴權法案呢,你認為它是在修法還是在修憲?"},{"start":279.855,"end":306.541,"text":"這次修立法院裡面的職權行使法修憲的話有另外修憲的程序對,我就是認為說齁他們認為修憲的這個門檻太高所以沒辦法修憲但是藉著修法來達到要修憲的目的目前我們中華民國的憲法還是五權憲法嘛那但是呢這次修法修成立法院獨大親愛的到行政院、司法院、監察院的權力"},{"start":307.401,"end":328.893,"text":"然後呢侵犯到執行權、調查權、聽證權的行使這些都違反到這個憲法權利分立的一個原則了就這幾項這個調查權、聽證權還有執行權為什麼我說他是假借修法實際上是想要達到這個修憲的目的啦我先請問一下院長立法委員有沒有執行總統的這個憲法權利"},{"start":331.4,"end":338.885,"text":"應該沒有質詢的權利總統依法依憲法的規定得到立法院在集會的時候進行國情報告但並沒有所謂質詢"},{"start":340.149,"end":341.329,"text":"我無法替總統回答但是我個人認為"},{"start":370.029,"end":385.645,"text":"如果在提出釋憲之後整個社會的焦點注意力會在釋憲上面希望釋憲的結果憲法法庭給這個憲法的秩序做一個安定的決定在此之前如果有不宜的行為太多引起人民的反感會更大"},{"start":386.442,"end":414.952,"text":"我是建議啦我是單單最後總統決定啦在事件結果出來之前總統是不移到立法院來啦因為這個是會破壞憲法上對於這一個總統的這一個權利的一些規定也破壞了這個五權分立的一個相關的規定再請教一下院長這個修法之後呢是不是任何人都有可能被叫到立法院來做調查或是提供文件然後人民能不能拒絕到場拒絕證言或是交付文件有沒有辦法拒絕"},{"start":416.001,"end":441.026,"text":"照目前新修正條文的內容來看是有這樣的疑慮的他必須要提供文件要來做詢問等等進行調查調閱以及聽證一般的人民都有可能受到這樣的立法院的要求所有的人民都有可能來嘛所有可能都會被調來所以我剛剛看到很多國民黨的立委說沒有啦這個有什麼重大社會關係的人才會來什麼叫重大社會關係"},{"start":442.295,"end":466.604,"text":"他認定你有重大社會關係,你就是有重大社會關係。胡坤崎昨天怎麼講?他說來立法院聽證的民眾,都是涉及跟政府相關有勾結,他已有新政了。他認為叫你來你就是有問題。黃國昌怎麼講?台灣社會無需恐慌啦!這個99.9%的人都不會受到影響啦!那問題是,誰是那0.1%的人?誰是那兩萬三千?兩萬三千的人,2.3萬的人之一嘛,對不對?"},{"start":471.926,"end":494.661,"text":"任何人都有可能會被叫過來所以呢這樣子的修法會不會變成政治上打擊一級的工具啊而且很主觀的認定是所謂跟政府相關有勾結的人這個罪名嚇得太大了對啊這就是國民黨和民眾黨他只要認為說你有關係就可以叫你過來而且呢叫你過來不過來要罰錢得廉賜罰對不對"},{"start":499.182,"end":522.54,"text":"再請教一下院長,修法之後,立法院可以向司法機關、檢察機關提供調查中的資料或副本,這樣有沒有違法或違憲?調查中的這個案件,它的相關的證件也許都在司法機關了。如果能夠提供副本的話,那嚴重侵犯司法機關的權限,就權力分立原則來講,就憲政秩序這個設計來講,是絕對不宜的。"},{"start":526.15,"end":547.815,"text":"這個44729號有講這個基於權力分立還有制衡的原則保障檢查機關獨立行使職權然後立法院不得調閱相關的證券那對於這個調閱相關的這個文件或是與文件內容相同之影本要經立法院院會的決議而且這調閱必須跟憲法上賦予這個立法委員職權"},{"start":549.735,"end":577.839,"text":"職權上有重大關聯者,使得為之。不是隨便都可以調要跟我們行使這個憲法上面有重大權力關聯者才可以嘛所以說這次修法呢這個司法機關跟檢察機關要資料然後呢這個也不用跟這個立法院行使權力有重大關聯也不用經過立法院院會的決議本席認為這跟釋字的第729號的這個相關的解釋精神已經不符了"},{"start":578.68,"end":604.328,"text":"而且跟國家機關獨立行使的職權受到憲法保障的還有非立法院所得調查的事務這是很明確在四字五八五語話裡面很清楚的對行政首長以及行政權固有的權能對於可能影響干預行政權部門有運作之餘的都不能當作被調查的事務但是現在這個酷選法案那個通過之後他其實都可以調他其實都可以調"},{"start":605.647,"end":630.567,"text":"在請教院長在2004年9月這個立法院那時候有公布一個政調會的一個條例就是要在國會裡創設一個準司法權就是在野黨以監督治衡為名行國會擴權之時所以才會有後來的44585號解釋所以其中有違權利分立跟治衡原則涉及人民基本權利有違正當法律程序這些條文都被宣布為違憲了所以"},{"start":632.549,"end":656.15,"text":"在國民黨的黨鞭、傅文綺說要成立國會特政組、翁曉琳說要成立立法院調查官,都是把這個立法委員當作檢察官、當作法官。立法院一拳不打,那所以呢,最後585號大家都已經講過了,那本來就要分決你這個最後585號解釋啦,作為一個最後的結語啦,我先簡單念一下啦。"},{"start":656.89,"end":679.642,"text":"國家監管行使權利要受到法的節制,立法院行使憲法所賦予的權利也沒有例外,只是法治原則的基本要求。立法院調查權的行使跟調查設項跟強制發生不同,可能涉及限制多種憲法保障人民的基本權利。所以,立法院行使調查權涉及憲法所保障人民的基本權利,不僅要法律的依據,"},{"start":680.442,"end":696.616,"text":"該法律的內容也必須明確,符合比例原則與正當法律程序。但是我現在看來,現在所公布的這個候選法案,完全沒有按照上面585號解釋的精神。好,謝謝李委員,我們時間到,來謝謝左院長下一位我們請李彥秀委員質詢"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}