{"error":false,"id":["154129"],"data":{"IVOD_ID":154129,"IVOD_URL":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154129","日期":"2024-06-20","會議資料":{"會議代碼":"全院委員會-11-1-1","會議代碼:str":"第11屆第1會期第1次全院委員會會議","屆":11,"會期":1,"會次":1,"臨時會會次":null,"種類":"全院委員會","標題":"立法院第11屆第1會期第1次全院委員會會議"},"影片種類":"Clip","開始時間":"2024-06-20T14:52:34+08:00","結束時間":"2024-06-20T15:03:00+08:00","影片長度":"00:10:26","支援功能":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/3ceaf6abec8b4a6dca059aed7da7aca79dd1cafa7fa6f271ed9074248c5ffe99cd1a1fb20885ccf05ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"吳宗憲","委員發言時間":"14:52:34 - 15:03:00","會議時間":"2024-06-20T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"第11屆第1會期第1次全院委員會會議（事由：審查「立法院職權行使法」修正部分條文、「中華民國刑法」增訂第五章之一章名及第一百四十一條之一條文等覆議案。）","gazette":{"lineno":80,"blocks":[["吳委員宗憲：（14時52分）麻煩請院長。"],["主席：請卓院長備詢。"],["吳委員宗憲：謝謝主席。院長你好！"],["卓院長榮泰：吳委員好！"],["吳委員宗憲：院長好！從昨天到今天的全院審查會看下來，其實我發現有兩個現象，就是溝通這兩個字目前用在執政黨身上好像越溝通結果這個溝越大，就更不通，我現在看到的是這樣，完全無法溝通！大家講的東西完全南轅北轍。","上個禮拜我對院長的質詢有提到，我蠻期望院長將來是成為全民大師兄，一起來照顧全民。結果現在變成好像是浩克一樣，碰到一些關鍵字，就有一點火氣都起來了，我想等等我們來看一下接下來我們詢答的狀況。因為我一直覺得詢答不是辯論，不是我們兩個吵來吵去的辯論，所以不能像辯論比賽，但是對於國會改革這個東西，我必須講目前民進黨的這些立法委員好像是當作辯論比賽一樣，2016年以前他是抽到正方，所以2016年以前他認為國會就是要改革，需要有這些權力，要有聽證、調查，都要有，結果2016到2024這八年又完全靜悄悄，即使國會多數，他也不管這件事，2024之後又好像辯論比賽抽到反方一樣，又完全開始否定所有的東西，所以這個讓我去思考到底這個政黨是有一個核心理念，想要為國為民、想要讓立法權能夠好好的監督行政權，還是今天它所謂的理念只因為是否執政而改變，時空環境不同或者是什麼政策的轉彎，其實我覺得這個都不是真正的原因，很單純的就是有沒有執政，執政了之後，想法就全都變了，不要講我的想法，這段時間我們看到民進黨的大前輩林濁水，其實他有提到這個修法已經等了好幾十年了，結果現在卻是他以前的同志們帶頭出來反對，甚至我自己提出來的提案，很多都是參考前輩顧立雄、前輩林佳龍的一些草案，結果現在卻被喊成是毀憲亂政，然後講一些奇奇怪怪的話，扣我一堆帽子，講我是什麼中共同路人，其實我不太能夠接受這樣。","我覺得一個還權於民的概念到最後變成扣上毀憲亂政，這就是把政治當作辯論比賽，這我沒有辦法接受，而且我覺得最離譜的是，今天在座的法務部鄭部長，我覺得他不只選手要當，裁判也要當，我沒有要問部長，部長不要把自己演成是側翼，其實我對部長滿期待的，而且他做了很多事，我也跟他說過他做了好幾個政策，我都非常稱讚。但是我認為部長不應該把自己演成側翼，為什麼？第一個，他昨天說藐視國會違背法律明確性，怎麼會違背法律明確性呢？你說虛偽陳述四個字不明確，刑法第一百六十八條偽證罪就是虛偽陳述，我不相信鄭部長一輩子沒有起訴過一件偽證罪，我自己起訴過很多件偽證罪，從來也沒有一個法官用違憲來把他判無罪或認定他違憲，所以你跟我講這個違反法律明確性原則，部長不能講這種話！","再來，部長昨天又講國會調查權違反釋字第585號，部長什麼時候變大法官了？這也不能這樣幹嘛！釋字第585號請部長回去自己再看清楚，至少我看的不是這樣，所以我認為不能這樣。藐視國會的定義不明到底是真的定義不明，還是你覆議的理由寫不明？這是我一直以來的問題。","還有我覺得你要說毀憲亂政，不如去提總統所要成立的三個委員會，其實這三個委員會的預算和人員編制都很奇怪，而且是由總統成立，之前蔡政府時代還不敢這麼做，結果現在賴政府時代變成要搞三個委員會，這樣子賴總統是不是有侵害到行政權？他說他有跟你仔細討論過，還是你覺得今天侵害到行政權，乾脆你做個手板，我們請外面的青鳥幫你一起維護你的權力，所以我真的覺得……"],["卓院長榮泰：委員，容許我答復一下。"],["吳委員宗憲：制度越走越奇怪，而且這不就是跟習近平一樣嗎？他搞了一堆工作小組來架空國務院。"],["卓院長榮泰：完全不一樣、完全不一樣。"],["吳委員宗憲：賴政府如果一直嘴巴罵共產黨，身體又一直學共產黨，這很奇怪啦！而且這段時間這樣搞下來，民進黨真的終於順利地把臺灣從民主制度走向獨裁制度了。"],["卓院長榮泰：報告委員，容許我說明一下，總統府三個委員會是一個任務編組，它沒有組織、沒有預算、沒有人事，單就一個特定議題選定之後，召集各界來討論，這個是很常有的事情，所有的執行工作行政院會執行。"],["吳委員宗憲：我們是在討論國會改革的案子。"],["卓院長榮泰：再跟委員報告一件事情，我們互相的質詢就是很好的典範。"],["吳委員宗憲：另外，我覺得執政黨立委的造謠功力也是滿分，真的是很厲害，譬如我昨天剛好有聽到一位立委說為什麼不可以行使緘默權，為什麼不能請律師，我想請問院長，你也是法律人，什麼時候我國的訴訟制度，證人可以請律師，可以行使緘默權？我想請教你。"],["卓院長榮泰：但是在這裡不一樣，你面對的不是一個司法上面的被告或是……"],["吳委員宗憲：今天不是司法調查，院長，你不能這樣子亂扯喔！"],["卓院長榮泰：所以今天沒有罪證事實……"],["吳委員宗憲：國會調查不是司法調查……"],["卓院長榮泰：你不能讓一個任何一個人來到這裡……"],["吳委員宗憲：緘默權是不自證己罪的時候，對於當事人的保障，並不是你今天講的這樣子。再來，昨天林宜瑾委員也說，我提到所謂的反質詢，這個部分他認為用待日後的判決判例來補充法制很荒謬，請問院長，我國的法律制度是不是本來就是依據條文以及判決判例來做宣判、判決，是不是？"],["卓院長榮泰：如果有明文條文當然是……"],["吳委員宗憲：你也是法律人。"],["卓院長榮泰：如果有形成判例，當然就是一個法律依據。"],["吳委員宗憲：沒錯，所以林宜瑾這種法律常識的不足，我也不想再譴責，就好像民主國家立法委員跑去人家高中的畢業典禮做政治宣傳一樣，其實這都不是民主國家該有的樣子。有關國會改革法案，我還是跟院長報告一下，我常常跟人家講一、二、三、四，我們這段時間舉辦過一場專報、兩場審查會、三場公聽會、四場協商，民進黨發言的時間是1,068分鐘，光是4月21號，民進黨發言時間就81分鐘27秒，每一個委員都發言兩次以上，結果你們最習慣的就是把所有的事情切成一個非常小的縫隙，在這個縫隙裡面去談對錯……"],["卓院長榮泰：絕非如此。"],["吳委員宗憲：你們從來不去把整個東西從頭到尾看清楚，是誰在搗亂整個議程？是誰從頭到尾在跟我扯抗中保臺？我主持會主持到不知道你們到底在跟我談條文，還是抗中保臺，我實在搞不太懂。所以這個部分，我先跟院長報告狀況是這個樣子。"],["卓院長榮泰：報告委員，不僅審查的過程不夠嚴謹，在投票的當天提出一個從來沒有看過的版本，這個也是大家詬病之所在。"],["吳委員宗憲：您當過立法委員嘛？"],["卓院長榮泰：曾經。"],["吳委員宗憲：我想修正動議是什麼時候提，你也很清楚啦，我覺得不用再這樣子說了。我想請問一下院長，到底依據議事規則，在立法院我們有幾種投票方式？"],["卓院長榮泰：可以記名、不記名、表決器等等都可以。"],["吳委員宗憲：簡單說有五種，結果現在大家在攻擊當天為什麼是舉手表決，我在這邊跟院長報告一件事情，當天國民黨也提案，希望我們簽一份切結書，大家不要攻占主席臺，所有人回到位置上面按表決器就好，大家都輕鬆，結果是柯建銘總召說什麼都不要，他就講了一句：「這不可能啦！」所以沒有辦法，到最後大家為了讓議事順利，就只能在主席臺上面，狀況是這樣，並不是我們這麼願意站在那裡，沒有椅子坐、沒有插座可以讓手機充電，然後傻傻地在那邊舉手表決。更何況你說舉手表決跟中共人大一樣，那你為什麼不說跟聯合國一樣？既然它是議事規則裡面一種投票方式，你們卻可以這樣去攻擊，我沒有辦法理解這樣啦！"],["卓院長榮泰：報告委員，我認為舉手表決有一個條件，它必須清點人數。"],["吳委員宗憲：我跟你說，你講到清點人數這句話，我就覺得更好笑的是，民進黨委員那天還有人得意洋洋地說：「我舉了兩次」。那你是在耍議事人員，就算議事人員點錯人數，也是議事人員的問題，不是立法委員的問題。"],["卓院長榮泰：不可以這樣！點錯人數，在表決的結果就是重大瑕疵。"],["吳委員宗憲：當天全程錄音、錄影，也有人拍照，你要確認是誰有沒有舉手，太簡單，所以不要去拿這種去騙外面的這些人民，這沒有意義啦！"],["卓院長榮泰：而且也應該需要正否的表決吧！"],["吳委員宗憲：最後我是覺得，民進黨，我們是一個五權體制的國家，不要把五權玩成一權，剩下行政權，這就變成獨裁。湯德宗大法官去年在東吳的時候，他提到釋字第585號，他在解釋這個的時候有講到權力分立的概念，他舉了一個例子，他說國家的主人就是人民，養了5條狗，我們要把權力分開，讓這5條狗去狗咬狗，而且沒有一條狗可以咬死其他的狗，這樣子人民才會安全。我是舉他的例子，不是我罵誰。所以麻煩各權之間彼此是互相監督、制衡，謝謝。"],["卓院長榮泰：讓五權互相制衡，而且互相保護，不要咬來咬去。"],["主席：謝謝吳委員，謝謝卓院長。","下一位我們請陳俊宇委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":372,"meet_id":"全院委員會-11-1-1","speakers":["韓國瑜","江啟臣","陳昭姿","王定宇","徐巧芯","黃珊珊","賴惠員","葉元之","莊瑞雄","林德福","黃捷","王育敏","郭國文","柯志恩","李坤城","李彥秀","蘇巧慧","黃健豪","吳沛憶","牛煦庭","王世堅","吳宗憲","陳俊宇","謝衣鳯","沈伯洋","翁曉玲"],"page_start":301,"meetingDate":["2024-06-20"],"gazette_id":"1136001","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1136001_00007","1136001_00008"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期第1次全院委員會會議紀錄","content":"審查「立法院職權行使法」修正部分條文、「中華民國刑法」增訂第五章之一章名及第一百四十\n一條之一條文等覆議案","agenda_id":"1136001_00005"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":5.2115937500000005,"end":6.865343750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":8.40096875,"end":9.71721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":9.953468750000003,"end":10.15596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":15.47159375,"end":17.12534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":17.31096875,"end":18.47534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":18.72846875,"end":23.33534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":23.75721875,"end":26.17034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":26.74409375,"end":30.034718750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":30.32159375,"end":33.13971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":33.40971875,"end":34.38846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":34.84409375,"end":36.04221875},{"spea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如果有形成判例那當然就是一個對沒錯所以林益錦這種法律嘗試的不足那我也不想再譴責就好像說民主國家立法委員跑去人家高中的畢業典禮在那邊做政治宣傳一樣其實這都不是民主國家該有的樣子就吼有關吼這個國會的這個改革的這個法案吼我想我還是跟院長報告一下啦我常跟人家講啦"},{"start":428.257,"end":431.121,"text":"一二三四我們這段時間舉辦過一場專報兩場審查會三場公聽會四場協商"},{"start":436.294,"end":459.279,"text":"民進黨發言的時間是1068分鐘光是4月21號民進黨發言時間就81分鐘27秒每一個委員都發言兩次以上結果你們最習慣的就是把所有的事情切成一個非常小的縫隙然後在這個縫隙裡面去談對錯你們從來不去把整個東西從頭到尾看清楚是誰在搗亂整個議程"},{"start":460.339,"end":463.363,"text":"報告委員不僅審查的過程不夠嚴謹在投票的當天提出一個從來沒有看過的版本這個也是大家詬病之所在"},{"start":480.105,"end":494.356,"text":"您當過立法委員嗎?曾經我想說修正動議是什麼時候提你也很清楚啦我覺得不用在一邊這樣子說了啦我想請問一下院長到底我們依據議事規則我們有幾種投票方式在立法院"},{"start":495.506,"end":518.661,"text":"可以記名不記名表決器等等都可以簡單說吳宗結果現在大家在攻擊說當天為什麼是舉手表決那我在這邊跟院長報告一件事情當天國民黨也提案希望我們簽一個竊決書大家不要攻占主席台所有人回到位置上面去按表決器就好大家都輕鬆結果是柯建民總召說什麼都不願意他就講了一句這不可能啦"},{"start":519.465,"end":533.864,"text":"所以沒有辦法到最後大家為了讓議事順利就只能在主席台上面狀況是這樣並不是我們這麼願意說站在那裡沒有椅子坐沒有插座可以充手機充電然後在那裡傻傻的在那邊舉手表決"},{"start":534.685,"end":550.697,"text":"更何況你說舉手表決什麼跟中共人大一樣那你為什麼不說跟聯合國一樣既然它是議事規則裡面一種投票方式你們卻可以來這樣子去攻擊我沒有辦法理解這樣啦吼報告委員我認為舉手表決有一個條件他必須清點人數"},{"start":552.398,"end":552.838,"text":"最後齁 我是覺得啦齁"},{"start":583.326,"end":599.311,"text":"民進黨齁我們是一個五權體制的國家不要把五權完成一權剩下行政權就變成獨裁那湯德忠大法官齁在去年在東吳的時候提到四字五八五號他在解釋這個的時候他有講到"},{"start":600.331,"end":600.351,"text":"好 謝謝"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}