{"error":false,"id":["154153"],"data":{"IVOD_ID":154153,"IVOD_URL":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154153","日期":"2024-06-24","會議資料":{"會議代碼":"委員會-11-1-36-33","會議代碼:str":"第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第33次全體委員會議","屆":11,"會期":1,"會次":33,"臨時會會次":null,"種類":"委員會","委員會代碼":[36],"委員會代碼:str":["司法及法制委員會"],"標題":"第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第33次全體委員會議"},"影片種類":"Clip","開始時間":"2024-06-24T09:17:15+08:00","結束時間":"2024-06-24T09:30:35+08:00","影片長度":"00:13:20","支援功能":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/f0b88677df9e618ce3a098e6f6311d86ce632df23284be63b3ffda9d38e3ccc627d7f1e23708bebc5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"黃國昌","委員發言時間":"09:17:15 - 09:30:35","會議時間":"2024-06-24T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第33次全體委員會議（事由：併案審查\n（一）台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「法院組織法第六十六條之五條文及第七十三條附表修正草案」案。\n（二）委員翁曉玲等16人擬具「法院組織法第六十七條條文及第七十三條附表修正草案」案。\n（三）委員劉建國等16人擬具「法院組織法第六十六條之五條文及第七十三條附表修正草案」案。\n【6月24日及26日兩天一次會】）","gazette":{"lineno":163,"blocks":[["黃委員國昌：（9時17分）謝謝主席，有請法務部部長。"],["主席：請部長。"],["鄭部長銘謙：委員早。"],["黃委員國昌：部長好。打擊詐騙犯罪所需要的人力、所需要的資源、所需要的科技偵查手段，我相信這個會期到這裡，部長可以充分感覺到在野黨是全力支持，但是在另外一個方面，當我們發現到詐騙集團猖獗，裡面竟然有檢察官涉入，這件事情要嚴肅地追究責任。之前有一次，你沒有來司法及法制委員會，我已經公開就教過當時的法務部次長，我說詐騙集團跟不肖的律師集團勾結，一起在搞詐騙，結果竟然有檢察官還鼓勵他的律師男友去加入這個詐騙集團，後來他的律師男友不僅僅是加重詐欺，還依照組織犯罪防制條例被起訴，檢察官鼓勵他的律師男友去加入犯罪組織啊！駭人聽聞，更離譜的事情是什麼？更離譜的事情是他的律師男友所在幫忙辯護、偵查當中的案件，結果接下來在公訴的時候是這個檢察官在蒞庭，這件事情部長有沒有掌握？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這部分我們也責成臺高檢來做行政調查。"],["黃委員國昌：什麼時候責成臺高檢進行調查的？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這部分我們是在6月12日。"],["黃委員國昌：6月12日嘛？"],["鄭部長銘謙：對。"],["黃委員國昌：那之前法務部在做什麼？之前法務部在做什麼？這件事情法務部是6月12號才知道嗎？這件事情法務部什麼時候知道的？那個犯罪組織什麼時候被起訴的？法務部什麼時候知道這件事？為什麼拖到6月12號？請說明。"],["鄭部長銘謙：這部分事實上在桃園地檢署已經有做行政調查了。"],["黃委員國昌：所以呢？"],["鄭部長銘謙：4月份就行政調查了。"],["黃委員國昌：對於桃園地檢署4月份所做的行政調查，法務部滿不滿意？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這部分我們尊重桃園地檢的……"],["黃委員國昌：桃園地檢的行政調查，法務部是一句尊重就可以解決的嗎？分兩個部分，6月12號你們交給臺高檢，臺高檢發出來的聲明稿、法務部的新聞稿全部都是什麼？進行刑事的偵辦嘛！刑事的偵辦歸刑事的偵辦。來看一下你們所發的新聞稿，要求它做的是什麼？刑事的偵查喔！刑事的偵辦喔！現在我要處理的事情是什麼？刑事的偵查、刑事的偵辦交給檢察官去偵辦犯罪，我沒有意見，我有意見的是什麼？我有意見的是你們的行政調查報告在哪裡？你說之前桃園地檢署有做行政調查，也移到檢察官評鑑委員會了。"],["鄭部長銘謙：對。"],["黃委員國昌：我上一次質詢的時候就問了嘛！移送給檢察官評鑑委員會的事實有包括那一位檢察官竟然在他詐團男友所幫忙辯護的案件當中蒞庭嗎？有包括他在蒞庭的時候竟然沒有就累犯應該加重情形的事實，具體指出證據方法嗎？上一次次長黃謀信說的是這個評鑑沒有包括這個移送的事實，次長講的對不對？"],["鄭部長銘謙：上次個案評鑑這部分的確是沒有包括。"],["黃委員國昌：所以我才問嘛！"],["鄭部長銘謙：所以這次我們就……"],["黃委員國昌：桃園地檢署的評鑑事實，法務部滿不滿意？"],["鄭部長銘謙：所以我們在6月12號再責令臺高檢直接對桃園地檢做行政調查。"],["黃委員國昌：這兩個部分喔！第一個刑事部分，你們發新聞稿說待偵查；第二個部分，行政調查現在有在進行嗎？"],["鄭部長銘謙：現在有在進行。"],["黃委員國昌：行政調查報告什麼時候可以出來？需要多久？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這部分我們希望能夠儘速來做一個釐清。"],["黃委員國昌：儘速是多久？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這要看整個行政調查中一些需要釐清的事實來做判斷。"],["黃委員國昌：所以我才請教部長行政調查需要多久？一個月、兩個月、半年還是一年？通常這種行政調查需要做多久？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這要看調查的這些事實。"],["黃委員國昌：是，所以需要多久？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這部分我們會責請臺高檢盡快釐清。"],["黃委員國昌：所以部長期待的盡快要多久？"],["鄭部長銘謙：是不是兩個月？"],["黃委員國昌：我為什麼問部長這個問題？來看一下，從去年我還沒有進入立法院的時候，我在民間社會、我一直在追，洗錢上百億的郭哲敏把他放掉，新北地檢署要出來給大家一個交代。來看一下、請部長看一下，我做了時間序，2023年3月的時候新北地檢署說，因為有刑事案件還在偵辦，所以他不好說明行政調查的結果；等到去年8月的時候，他說被告都全部到案，儘速調查釐清相關刑事及行政責任，適時對外公布；到了今年3月我繼續問，新北地檢署發的新聞稿是什麼？行政調查程序仍在進行、還沒有結案，沒有辦法提供行政調查結果。從去年的3月到今年的3月，整整一年喔！我要的是行政調查的結果，都交不出來啊！現在請問一下，這份行政調查報告做完了沒有？"],["鄭部長銘謙：還在進行中。"],["黃委員國昌：所以嘛！我剛才問你嘛！對於法務部來講，所謂的行政調查到底是要進行多久？進行一年多！都已經被彈劾了、移送懲戒法庭了，進行一年多！我們法務部所進行的行政調查報告還沒有出來，這樣的效率部長滿意嗎？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這個我們就尊重行政調查機關的……"],["黃委員國昌：我們當然尊重嘛！但問題是什麼？人民在看的是什麼？人都已經放出去了，放出去以後該滅證的、該串供的處理的差不多了，去年8月才抓回來，去年8月抓回來到現在又快一年了，一個行政調查做不出來，這是用行政調查在拖延嗎？這是用行政調查在包庇嗎？請教部長。"],["鄭部長銘謙：我們絕對沒有包庇這些的……"],["黃委員國昌：所以你要怎麼解釋？一年多行政調查報告交不出來，我們尊重他的結果是什麼？一年多交不出來！兩年夠不夠、三年夠不夠，還是要五年？"],["鄭部長銘謙：行政調查我們也必須要縝密地去調查，而不是……"],["黃委員國昌：是！到目前為止，都已經被彈劾、移送懲戒法院了，你們還要縝密地調查，搞了一年多耶！連行政調查報告都交不出來，有什麼難以啟齒的理由？都已經被移送懲戒法庭了，行政調查報告還交不出來，今天如果是刑事偵查的話，那個是社會輿論要監督，這是行政調查，行政調查不是法務部應該去負責任的範圍嗎？說一句要大家尊重行政調查，我們都尊重、我也很有耐心的等啊！我從去年3月一路問，問到現在行政調查報告還做不出來！這樣的效率部長可以接受嗎？"],["鄭部長銘謙：我們會督導。"],["黃委員國昌：會督導！好，我們拭目以待啊！你剛剛說那一個檢察官幫助、鼓勵他的律師男友去加入犯罪組織搞詐騙的，你說那份行政調查報告兩個月可以做出來嘛，剛剛這個是你說的嘛？"],["鄭部長銘謙：我們會督導他們在……"],["黃委員國昌：好，兩個月可以做出來。這一份已經做了一年多了，還需要再多久？剛剛你不是說你要督導嗎？我相信你的督導啊，剛剛那一份兩個月要做出來，現在這一份拖了一年多，還需要多久？"],["鄭部長銘謙：我再來瞭解。"],["黃委員國昌：第二個，有關於科技偵查，我們大家其實都支持，但我最近看到法務部轉來一個函，我看了很震驚，針對網路流量紀錄，我們大家支持在科技偵查所需要的偵查手段，特別是在打擊詐騙，但我看到你們所提出來簡單的一張紙，簡單的一張紙喔！裡面沒有細目、沒有內容，最後只跟大家講說，我們建置這個網路流量紀錄保存，一開始的時候就要花上百億！三大電信業者中每一個電信業者這塊大餅可以分到三十億，這個錢到底是怎麼估算出來的？請部長。"],["鄭部長銘謙：這個是由調查局跟警政署估算出來的。"],["黃委員國昌：調查局是不是法務部所屬？是吧？"],["鄭部長銘謙：是啊。"],["黃委員國昌：對啊！你作為法務部部長，調查局不是你的轄下機關嗎？所以我現在請教你啊，一開始建置就要一百億是怎麼估算出來的？三大電信業者中每一個電信業者分三十億，結果立法院跟你們要報告，給一張紙喔？拿一張紙來要上百億，這樣對嗎？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這個是建置的，這是屬於技術層面的問題，這部分我想建置機關會做一個評估跟一個……"],["黃委員國昌：好，建置機關的評估，關於這一百億怎麼計算出來的，可不可以提供詳細的內容給司法及法制委員會？而不是只有一張紙啊！打詐需要的我們一定會給後盾，但我看到一張紙一百億的時候，我需要更細的內容才能負責任的做決策嘛，一張紙一百億，三大電信業者各要三十億，怎麼計算出來的？這個費用合理嗎？成本怎麼計算的？需不需要跟司法及法制委員會的委員針對你們估算的細節提供詳細的資料？請教部長。"],["鄭部長銘謙：這部分我們再來做一個……"],["黃委員國昌：需要多久？你一百億總有個基礎嘛，你們跟三大電信業者開會的資料、計算的基準、怎麼收費的……"],["鄭部長銘謙：一個禮拜內。"],["黃委員國昌：一個禮拜內提供資料。我先跟大家講一百億是什麼概念啊？調查局一年的預算多少錢，部長知不知道？"],["鄭部長銘謙：真的很抱歉，這個……"],["黃委員國昌：六十九億兩千萬。刑事警察局一年的預算多少？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這個我不清楚。"],["黃委員國昌：三十二億。沒有關係啦，在PPT我都幫你整理好，沒有要考你啦！一百億是什麼概念？一個調查局加一個刑事警察局一年的預算，從人事費到業務費。","我再強調一次，需要的錢、需要的科技偵查手段我們都會支持，但處理的方式絕對不是像現在的法務部一樣，拿一張紙來、A4的紙喔，上面沒有寫幾個字就說要一百億！相關的資料請法務部一個禮拜之內提出來，謝謝。"],["主席：這個部分就麻煩法務部一個禮拜內提出來，謝謝，盡快！","下一位請傅崐萁委員進行詢答。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":50,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-36-33","speakers":["吳宗憲","黃國昌","翁曉玲","傅崐萁","沈發惠","莊瑞雄","陳俊宇","鍾佳濱","羅智強","林思銘","吳思瑤","牛煦庭","劉建國"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-06-24"],"gazette_id":"1136501","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1136501_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第33次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"併案審查( 一 ) 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案。"},{"start":204.443,"end":227.82,"text":"你說之前桃園地檢署有做行政調查也移到檢察官評鑑委員會了我上一次質詢的時候就問了嘛檢察官評鑑委員會移送給檢察官評鑑委員會的事實有包括那一位檢察官竟然在他詐團男友所幫忙辯護的案件當中力挺嗎"},{"start":229.266,"end":239.557,"text":"有包括說他在立庭的時候竟然沒有就累犯應該加重情形的事實具體指出證據方法嗎?上一次次長黃謀信說的是"},{"start":241.806,"end":260.752,"text":"六十六條之五條文及第七十三條附表修正草案（事由．立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會及第七十三條附表修正草案．立法院組織法第六十六條之五條附表修正草案．立法院組織法第六十六條附表修正草案．立法院組織法第六十六條附表修正草案．立法院組織法第六十六條附表修正草案．立法院組織法第六十六條附表修正草案．立法院組織法第六十六條附表修正草"},{"start":262.994,"end":282.373,"text":"這兩個部分喔第一個刑事部分刑事的部分你們發新聞稿說在偵查嗎第二個部分行政調查現在有在進行嗎現在有在進行行政調查報告什麼時候可以出來需要多久這部分齁那個我們是希望能夠競速來做一個競速是多久"},{"start":283.697,"end":299.213,"text":"六十七條附表修正草案（事由．立法院第11屆第12會期司法及法制委員會第13次全體委員會第14次全體委員會第15次全體委員會第16次全體委員會第17次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第19次全體委員會第19次全體委員會第20次全體委員會第21次全體委員會第22次全體委員會第23次全體委員會第24次全體委員會第24次全體委員會第25次全體委員會第26次全體委員會第27次全體委員會第28次全體委員會第29次全體委員會第30次全體委員會第30次全體委員會第30次全體委員會"},{"start":307.213,"end":313.896,"text":"六十七條附表修正草案．一）二十七條附表修正草案．一）二十七條附表修正草案．一）二十七條附表修正草案．一）二十七條附表修正草案．一）二十七條附表修正草案．一）二十七條附表修正草案．一）二十七條附表修正草案．一）二十七條附表修正草案．一）二十七條附表修正草案．一）二十七條附表修正草案．一）二十七條"},{"start":335.374,"end":358.832,"text":"幾前上百億的郭澤民把他放掉新北地檢署要出來給大家一個交代來看一下請部長看一下我做的時間序2023年3月的時候新北地檢署說因為有刑事案件還在偵辦所以他不好說明行政調查的結果等到去年8月的時候他說"},{"start":361.173,"end":387.46,"text":"六十七條附表修正草案案 行事及行政責任事實對外公佈。到了今年三月我繼續問新北地檢署發的新聞稿是什麼行政調查程序仍在進行還沒有結案沒有辦法提供行政調查結果從去年的三月到今年的三月整整一年整整一年喔我要的是行政調查的結果"},{"start":388.342,"end":394.286,"text":"都交不出來啊現在來請問一下這一份行政調查報告做完了沒有還在進行中所以嘛我剛才問你嘛對於法務部來講所謂的行政調查到底是要進行多久進行一年多一年多都已經被彈劾了移送懲戒法庭了進行一年多"},{"start":418.41,"end":424.676,"text":"六十六條條文及第七十三條附表修正草案（事由（法院組織法第六十六條條文及第七十三條附表修正草案（事由（法院組織法第六十六條附表修正草案（"},{"start":441.567,"end":448.453,"text":"六十六條條文及第七十三條附表修正草案．一）三）委員劉建國等16人擬具:「法院組織法第六十七條附表修正草案．一）"},{"start":461.414,"end":487.723,"text":"我們絕對沒有包庇的這些的人所以你要怎麼解釋一年多行政調查報告交不出來我們尊重他的結果是什麼一年多交不出來兩年夠不夠三年夠不夠還是要五年還是我們必須要整密的去調查是到目前為止都已經被彈劾移送懲戒法院了你們還要整密的調查搞了一年多欸連行政調查報告都交不出來有什麼難以啟齒的理由"},{"start":492.83,"end":512.361,"text":"有什麼難以啟齒的理由都已經被移送懲戒法庭了欸行政調查報告還交不出來今天如果是刑事偵查的話那個是社會輿論要監督啊這是行政調查欸行政調查不是法務部應該去負責任的範圍嗎"},{"start":515.839,"end":531.973,"text":"所以具要大家尊重行政調查我們都尊重啊我很有耐心的等啊我從去年的三月一路問問到現在問到現在行政調查報告還做不出來這樣的效率部長可以接受嗎我們會督導會督導好我們拭目以待啊你剛剛說那一個檢察官"},{"start":542.86,"end":570.235,"text":"幫助鼓勵他的律師男友去加入犯罪組織搞詐騙的你說那份行政調查報告兩個月可以做出來嗎剛剛這個是你說的嗎好兩個月可以做出來這一份已經做了一年多了還需要再多久剛剛你不是說你要督導嗎我相信你的督導啊剛剛那份兩個月要做出來現在這一份拖了一年多還需要多久"},{"start":572.844,"end":577.825,"text":"六十七條附表修正草案．一．二．一．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．"},{"start":599.571,"end":625.184,"text":"但我看到你們所提出來簡單的一張紙簡單的一張紙喔裡面沒有細目沒有內容最後只跟大家講說我們建制這個網路流量記錄的保存一開始的時候就要花上百億一開始喔就要花上百億三大電信業者每一個電信業者這塊大餅可以分到30億"},{"start":628.37,"end":654.071,"text":"這個錢到底是怎麼估算出來的請部長這個是由調查局跟警政署來估算出來的調查局是不是法務部所屬是吧是啊對啊啊你作為法務部部長調查局不是你的轄下機關嗎所以我現在請教你啊這一百億一開始建制就要一百億是怎麼估算出來的"},{"start":655.438,"end":658.76,"text":"六十三條附表修正草案（事由．法院組織法第六十六條附表修正草案．"},{"start":670.436,"end":699.218,"text":"這個是建制的這是屬於技術層面的一個問題這部分我想那個建制機關他們會有做一個評估跟一個好建制機關的評估這一百億怎麼計算出來的可不可以提供詳細的內容給司法法制委員會而不是只有一張紙打詐需要的打詐需要的我們一定會給後盾但我看到一張紙一百億的時候我需要更細的內容我才能負責任的做決策嗎"},{"start":700.865,"end":719.169,"text":"一張紙一百億三大電信業者各要三十億怎麼計算出來的這個費用合理嗎成本怎麼計算的需不需要跟司法法制委員會的委員針對你們估算的細節提供詳細的資料來請教部長"},{"start":730.145,"end":730.345,"text":"六十九億兩千萬"},{"start":755.23,"end":758.671,"text":"六十七條附表修正草案．立法院第六十七條附表修正草案．立法院等16人擬具"},{"start":772.557,"end":794.014,"text":"我再強調一次需要的錢需要的科技偵查手段我們都會支持但處理的方式絕對不是像現在的法務部一樣拿一張紙來喔A4的紙喔上面沒有寫幾個字就說要一百億相關的資料請法務部一個禮拜之內提出來謝謝好那這個部分就麻煩法務部一個禮拜內提出來好謝謝"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}