{"error":false,"id":["154154"],"data":{"IVOD_ID":154154,"IVOD_URL":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154154","日期":"2024-06-24","會議資料":{"會議代碼":"委員會-11-1-36-33","會議代碼:str":"第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第33次全體委員會議","屆":11,"會期":1,"會次":33,"臨時會會次":null,"種類":"委員會","委員會代碼":[36],"委員會代碼:str":["司法及法制委員會"],"標題":"第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第33次全體委員會議"},"影片種類":"Clip","開始時間":"2024-06-24T09:30:42+08:00","結束時間":"2024-06-24T09:43:27+08:00","影片長度":"00:12:45","支援功能":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/f0b88677df9e618cb45ce7b3441da274ce632df23284be63b3ffda9d38e3ccc68eac4c02589cf07d5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"傅崐萁","委員發言時間":"09:30:42 - 09:43:27","會議時間":"2024-06-24T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第33次全體委員會議（事由：併案審查\n（一）台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「法院組織法第六十六條之五條文及第七十三條附表修正草案」案。\n（二）委員翁曉玲等16人擬具「法院組織法第六十七條條文及第七十三條附表修正草案」案。\n（三）委員劉建國等16人擬具「法院組織法第六十六條之五條文及第七十三條附表修正草案」案。\n【6月24日及26日兩天一次會】）","gazette":{"lineno":230,"blocks":[["傅委員崐萁：（9時31分）主席。有關今天排這個議程，基本上要怎麼樣讓我們國家詐騙的防制、阻詐、打詐、懲詐能夠立刻有效能，本席基本上是支持的，但是用什麼樣的方式才能夠達成這個目的？這個有必要來討論。我們先請人事總處。"],["主席：請人事總處。"],["傅委員崐萁：對於本院委員的提案，對於法院組織法第六十六條之五以及第七十三條附表修正草案，現在要求增加檢察官助理是為了防治打詐，人事總處這邊的基本意見是怎麼樣？"],["張處長翠娟：跟委員還有相關機關代表說明。行政院在107年開始，我們配合整個打詐還有釋字第785號健康權的維護，且刑事案件、新收案件的增加，從107年一直到113年，其實我們已經給了八百八十多個員額，明年還會再給118，這幾年總共給1,000名員額。","去年整個行政院在討論打詐綱領的時候有提到第一線的檢察官其實需要有一些人力，因為畢竟檢察事務官進用之後還要再受訓，這是相當長的一段時間，因為他們有固定訓練的時間，所以希望能夠增加一些輔助的人力，所以在行政院相關方案裡面，其實是有給部裡面能夠來補助地方政府來進用所謂的檢察官助理。去年……"],["傅委員崐萁：地方政府？"],["張處長翠娟：地方檢察署，就是地檢署這邊來進用，所以去年大概進用了100位。"],["傅委員崐萁：臨時人員嘛？"],["張處長翠娟：對，但今年改稱為約用人員，這個部分今年有進用了一百五十……"],["傅委員崐萁：所以基本上，針對本院委員的草案，您是支持的嘛？"],["張處長翠娟：我們希望能夠在進用檢察官助理一年之後，我們來評估這部分真正的人力。大家知道檢察事務官其實應該才是檢察官最主要的輔助人力，因為檢察官助理本身是在蒐集一些資訊，可能在整個偵查核心這一塊能夠提供的部分，我們建議是不是能夠在實施一年之後再來看看這個法制化……"],["傅委員崐萁：現在已經實施一年了。"],["張處長翠娟：還沒，去年10月份才開始。"],["傅委員崐萁：到今年嘛？"],["張處長翠娟：對。"],["傅委員崐萁：滿了以後人事總處給我一份資料好不好？"],["張處長翠娟：再給一份資料？"],["傅委員崐萁：滿一年以後，人事總處給我們一份資料好不好？"],["張處長翠娟：我們就是會配合部裡面的評估資料。"],["傅委員崐萁：好，謝謝。請數發部。"],["胡副署長貝蒂：委員好。"],["傅委員崐萁：對於打詐的部分，數發部這兩、三年總共花了幾百億，成立數發部花了幾百億，有沒有什麼打詐的成效？"],["胡副署長貝蒂：我們今年編了一個3億的社會發展的預算，然後進行打詐相關的工作，所以在……"],["傅委員崐萁：有沒有什麼成效？"],["胡副署長貝蒂：有，比如說我們在遊戲的部分，被「165」通報的案件數也降低了，或者是在電商平臺上面相關的危險平臺的通報也是降低的。"],["傅委員崐萁：所以你們編了三億多？"],["胡副署長貝蒂：這個是針對……"],["傅委員崐萁：你們出國旅遊編了多少錢？"],["胡副署長貝蒂：可能三千多萬的部分是整個部裡面的預算，包括整個國際對接的部分，然後當然還有一些……"],["傅委員崐萁：你們花了兩、三百億，裡面有3億是拿來針對打詐的部分……"],["胡副署長貝蒂：這個是額外的，過去我們在做電商平臺的管理或者是遊戲的管理，也都有相關的經費……"],["傅委員崐萁：謝謝。請NCC。"],["李專門委員文秀：委員好。"],["傅委員崐萁：最近這幾年，我們打詐的成效如何？"],["李專門委員文秀：我們一直持續的在對於電信事業的督導，對於電信事業如何瞭解他的客戶然後掌控，有一些有效遏阻，可是具體數據要配合法務部、內政部這邊才……"],["傅委員崐萁：是配合法務部跟內政部？"],["李專門委員文秀：我們本來就有在做，我們對電信事業督導本來就有包含這一塊，但是如果具體成效要算那個績效的話……"],["傅委員崐萁：您覺得成效如何？"],["李專門委員文秀：我們一直積極努力在做。"],["傅委員崐萁：用積極努力是嗎？好，謝謝。再來請金管會。"],["張副組長世昌：委員好。"],["傅委員崐萁：打詐的成效，金管會去置評一下，覺得怎麼樣？"],["張副組長世昌：跟委員報告，我們金管會督導金融機構做疑似交易的攔阻，去年攔阻金額已經達到76億。"],["傅委員崐萁：好，聽起來金管會比較有數字，持續加油，好不好？"],["張副組長世昌：好，謝謝委員。"],["傅委員崐萁：再過來我們請法務部，請部長。"],["鄭部長銘謙：委員早。"],["傅委員崐萁：部長，我們來看一下，這麼多年來整個中央政府對於打詐、行政院對於打詐的整體成效，本席已經跟你提過很多次了，我們再看一下108年的3萬4,947件，到去年的22萬9,711件，增幅達557%，到底是法務部的無能還是行政院整個體制都癱瘓了？花了這麼多錢，越打越詐，部長有什麼看法，告訴全國國人。"],["鄭部長銘謙：本部是負責懲詐，我們會全力嚴查、查緝、溯源、斷根，這就是代表我們懲詐……"],["傅委員崐萁：溯源、斷根？"],["鄭部長銘謙：努力的一個結果……"],["傅委員崐萁：溯源、斷根的成果怎麼樣？"],["鄭部長銘謙：到今年為止，我們是已經穩定下來了。"],["傅委員崐萁：穩定下來是詐騙案穩定成長嗎？"],["鄭部長銘謙：整個因為查獲量的增加，我想這已經彰顯我們團隊全力偵查……"],["傅委員崐萁：你們今天懲詐有沒有達到嚇阻的效果嘛？"],["鄭部長銘謙：至少要先把人抓到啊！"],["傅委員崐萁：人先抓到，案子不斷的在往上直線增加……"],["鄭部長銘謙：所以我想這是冰山一角，我們想讓冰山整個浮出嘛，這是我們努力的成果嘛！"],["傅委員崐萁：冰山一角、冰山浮出，所以持續的……"],["鄭部長銘謙：因為法務部是負責懲詐的部分，所以我們是希望如果有這些，我們全部都把它查緝殆盡。"],["傅委員崐萁：我們現在來看一下，根據今天行政院數發部所提，行政院112年5月4號通過新世代打擊詐欺策略行動綱領1.5版有四大面向，第一個「識詐」認識的識，由內政部擔任統籌機關，第二「堵詐」，防堵的堵，堵詐由NCC負責統籌，堵詐現在堵出了什麼成果，識詐識出了什麼成果？第三個「阻詐」，阻擋詐騙由金管會負責統籌辦理，最後第四是「懲詐」，由法務部負責擔任統籌機關，結果這四個主要的部會負責四大面向，我們現在的詐騙案還是持續地往上攀升，本席比較好奇，我請教一下法務部，您認為增加檢察官助理是不是很重要？"],["鄭部長銘謙：很重要。"],["傅委員崐萁：很重要？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這是檢察官殷切期盼的一個人力需求。"],["傅委員崐萁：好，謝謝。剛剛人事總處也講了，我們看一下113年地檢署的員額一覽表，我們先來看檢察事務官的缺額還有225名沒有補，現在要來150名檢察官助理，檢察事務官到現在還補不齊，然後又來要檢察官的助理，不是不可以啦！既然部長也認為很重要，那請問行政院的版本是什麼？法務部的版本是什麼？"],["鄭部長銘謙：本部在去年11月已經把整個修正草案，就第六十六條之五跟第七十三條的修正草案已經送行政院了，現在有報行政院，因為法規主管機關是司法院，所以現在在研議當中。"],["傅委員崐萁：去年是什麼時候送行政院？"],["鄭部長銘謙：11月17號。"],["傅委員崐萁：到現在幾月了？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這個是由行政院、是行政院跟……"],["傅委員崐萁：所以行政院認為無關緊要嘛！到現在……"],["鄭部長銘謙：但是我們在2月的協調會……"],["傅委員崐萁：行政院的版本到現在都還沒有提出來，所以本席認為行政院對你們內部意見的整合到底是怎麼樣，還有你們打詐的基本策略是怎麼樣，還是不是在法務部調查局成立打詐專責的單位？在那裡擴張員額來針對打詐的部分，也是法務部所屬嘛！對不對？本席覺得如果越打越詐的話，就應該來討論到底哪裡出了問題，行政院必須要統籌，跟立法院要說明清楚，而且必須行政院的版要送過來，行政院的版送過來以後，本黨也會提出相關支持的版本，這是一個最基本的，因為打詐是由行政院統籌，統籌到現在越打越詐，到底成效如何？"],["鄭部長銘謙：我們不贊成越打越詐，我們現在是把那些詐團一一揪出，我想我們……"],["傅委員崐萁：我們現在是看整體的數字。"],["鄭部長銘謙：而且剛剛委員有提……"],["傅委員崐萁：部長，這不是口舌之快，人民是看數字的。"],["鄭部長銘謙：我沒有口舌之快，剛才……"],["傅委員崐萁：本席不跟你討論這個啦！你數字降下來的時候，本席就相信，就這麼簡單，因為這個就是成效，好不好？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這個……"],["傅委員崐萁：另外，請部長回去行政院院會反映，儘快把行政院的版本提出來，本席恭候，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝。人事總處，剛剛傅委員請你們補充的資料要麻煩你們，一個月內嗎？"],["張處長翠娟：一年。"],["主席：一年到的時候，對，不好意思，那你們到時候要記得補充。"],["傅委員崐萁：108年那個應該一週內要送本委員會。"],["主席：剛剛108年的部分可能就麻煩你們一週內一定要送到本委會來，謝謝。","接下來我們請沈發惠委員進行詢答。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":50,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-36-33","speakers":["吳宗憲","黃國昌","翁曉玲","傅崐萁","沈發惠","莊瑞雄","陳俊宇","鍾佳濱","羅智強","林思銘","吳思瑤","牛煦庭","劉建國"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-06-24"],"gazette_id":"1136501","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1136501_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第33次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"併案審查( 一 ) 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案。"},{"start":100.679,"end":106.14,"text":"六十六條附表修正草案．立法院第十七條附表修正草案．立法院主席劉建國等16人擬具:「法院組織法第六十七條附表修正草案．立法院主席劉建國等16人擬具"},{"start":128.146,"end":129.827,"text":"三條附表修正草案．一）三條附表修正草案．一）"},{"start":154.56,"end":165.27,"text":"六十六條條文及第七十三條附表修正草案（事由．立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會及第七十三條附表修正草案．立法院組織法第六十六條附表修正草案．立法院組織法第1會期司法及第七十三條附表修正草案．"},{"start":180.077,"end":182.779,"text":"六十六條條文及第七十三條附表修正草案．一）三）二十三條附表修正草案．一"},{"start":205.912,"end":208.594,"text":"六十六條條文及第七十三條附表修正草案．"},{"start":232.432,"end":235.773,"text":"六十六條條文及第七十三條附表修正草案．一）二十六條條文及第七十三條附表修正草案．一）"},{"start":244.844,"end":257.148,"text":"六十七條附表修正草案．一．三．二十七條附表修正草案．一．三．二十七條附表修正草案．一．二十七條附表修正草案．一．二十七條附表修正草案．一．二十七條附表修正草案．一．二十七條附表修正草案．一．二十七條附表修正草案．一．二十七條附表修正草案．一．二十七條附表修正草案．一．二十七條附表修正草案．"},{"start":270.751,"end":273.014,"text":"六十三條附表修正草案案案。"},{"start":278.511,"end":283.756,"text":"六十三條附表修正草案．一．二十三條附表修正草案"},{"start":311.118,"end":313.484,"text":"四條文及第七十三條附表修正草案案。"},{"start":322.87,"end":329.813,"text":"六十七條附表修正草案．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．"},{"start":351.905,"end":352.667,"text":"七十三條附表修正草案案案。"},{"start":370.759,"end":374.222,"text":"四條文及第七十三條附表修正草案．一．一．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．"},{"start":399.281,"end":401.843,"text":"二十三條附表修正草案案案案。"},{"start":422.069,"end":448.22,"text":"我們再看一下一百零八年的三萬四千九百四十七件到去年的二十二萬九千七百一十一件征服到五百五十七個百分點法務部到底是法務部的無能還是整個行政院整個體制都癱瘓了花了這麼多錢越打越炸"},{"start":449.926,"end":451.987,"text":"六十六條條文及第七十三條附表修正草案．一．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．"},{"start":469.502,"end":476.526,"text":"六十六條條文及第七十三條附表修正草案．一．二．二十三條附表修正草案．一．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．"},{"start":495.675,"end":516.952,"text":"因為這個是本部法務部是負責懲詐的一個部分所以我們是希望如果有這些我們全部都把它查清帶進來我們現在看一下這個根據啊這個今天行政院書法部所提出來"},{"start":518.809,"end":538.005,"text":"行政院一百一一十二年五月四號通過新世代打擊詐欺策略行動綱領一點五版四大面向第一個認識的是試詐由內政部擔任統籌機關第二堵詐防堵的堵堵詐"},{"start":539.133,"end":553.782,"text":"由NCC負責統籌,賭詐現在賭出了什麼成果,試詐試出了什麼成果。第三個主詐,主擋詐騙,監管會負責統籌辦理。最後第四是懲詐,法務部負責統籌機關。結果這四個主要的部會負責四大面向,"},{"start":568.24,"end":575.686,"text":"六十六條條文及第七十三條附表修正草案．立法院第11屆第12會期司法及法制委員會及第七十三條附表修正草案．立法院等16人擬具"},{"start":586.721,"end":607.493,"text":"六十六條條文及第七十三條附表修正草案．立法院第六十六條附表修正草案．立法院第六十六條附表修正草案．立法院第六十六條附表修正草案．立法院第六十六條附表修正草案．立法院第六十六條附表修正草案．立法院第六十六條附表修正草案．立法院第六十六條附表修正草案．立法院第六十六條附表修正草案．立法院第六十六條附表修正草案．立法院第六十六條附表修正草案．"},{"start":616.331,"end":620.093,"text":"六十六條條文及第七十三條附表修正草案．一．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．"},{"start":631.038,"end":655.875,"text":"那請問行政院的版本是什麼法務部的版本是什麼本部那個已經把在去年11月已經把那個整個一個修正草案就是六十六條之五跟七十三條就已經送行政院的他現在是有報行政院行政現在跟司法院因為法規主管機關是司法院所以現在在所以說去年去年什麼時候送行政院11月到現在幾月了到現在幾月了"},{"start":657.714,"end":665.458,"text":"六十六條條文及第七十三條附表修正草案案 案﹚立法院第11屆第12屆第13屆第14屆第15屆第16屆第17屆第18屆第18屆第19屆第19屆第20屆第21屆第21屆第22屆第22屆第23屆第24屆第25屆第26屆第27屆第28屆第29屆第30屆第40屆第41屆第41屆第41屆第42屆第42屆第43屆第43屆第44屆第44屆第45屆第46屆第47屆第47屆第48屆第48屆第49屆第49屆第50屆第50屆第51屆第51屆第52屆第52屆第53"},{"start":687.918,"end":699.586,"text":"六十六條條文及第七十三條附表修正草案．一．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．"},{"start":717.961,"end":728.291,"text":"四條本黨也會提出相關於支持的版本這是一個最基本的因為打詐是由行政院在統籌統籌到現在越打越詐"},{"start":729.656,"end":734.519,"text":"到底成效如何?我們現在是看整體的數字。部長,這不是口舌之快。人民是看數字的。本席不跟你討論這個啦。你數字降下來的時候本席就相信啦。就這麼簡單啦。因為這個就是成效。好不好?"},{"start":752.088,"end":753.491,"text":"六十三條附表修正草案案案案。"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}