{"error":false,"id":["154167"],"data":{"IVOD_ID":154167,"IVOD_URL":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154167","日期":"2024-06-25","會議資料":{"會議代碼":"院會-11-1-19","會議代碼:str":"第11屆第1會期第19次會議","屆":11,"會期":1,"會次":19,"臨時會會次":null,"種類":"院會","標題":"立法院第11屆第1會期第19次會議"},"影片種類":"Clip","開始時間":"2024-06-25T09:36:48+08:00","結束時間":"2024-06-25T09:52:43+08:00","影片長度":"00:15:55","支援功能":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/63224dc0dd2f91fb5a0736cc950619a84c867c7a3ae89c54cd9747a858392c9cc5a332098edd992b5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"盧縣一","委員發言時間":"09:36:48 - 09:52:43","會議時間":"2024-06-25T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"第11屆第1會期第19次會議（事由：一、覆議案之處理事項。（6月21日）\n二、對行政院院長報告施政方針繼續質詢。（6月25日）\n三、6月21日上午9時至10時為國是論壇時間。 \n四、6月25日下午1時50分至2時30分為處理臨時提案時間。）","gazette":{"lineno":91,"blocks":[["盧委員縣一：（9時36分）主席，有請院長跟原民會主委。"],["主席：請卓院長及原民會主委備詢。"],["卓院長榮泰：盧委員好。"],["盧委員縣一：院長好，主委好。莫拉克到現在即將邁入第15年，今天我們大概就是針對莫拉科風災後的一些問題來質詢新任的行政院長。就莫拉克來說，院長，你的印象是什麼？"],["卓院長榮泰：就是一場突如其來非常大的颱風，造成地區非常……"],["盧委員縣一：我希望你是說它造成681人死亡、62億美金的損失，我希望這兩點請牢牢記得。「莫拉克」在語意上是什麼意思？"],["卓院長榮泰：對不起。"],["盧委員縣一：主委知道嗎？莫拉克這三個字的意思。"],["卓院長榮泰：莫拉克這三個字……"],["盧委員縣一：莫拉克這三個字是泰國話的綠寶石，因為它造成這麼大的損害以後被永久除名，也就是以後再也沒有颱風會以莫拉克命名。好，簡單地回顧以後，我們來看現在莫拉克災後重建的這個條例，大概在2009年到103年，一共5年的時間，它廢止了，廢止到現在已經將近10年的時間，我們看它現在的一些檢討方案，監察院在兩年前曾經提出檢討報告，是非常厚的報告，不曉得行政院後來有沒有收到這份報告？我相信一定有，因為你是新任，所以我給你這一份新的。"],["曾主任委員智勇：委員，這份我們有，謝謝。"],["盧委員縣一：這麼厚的一份檢討報告，我不知道相關單位有沒有詳實地去看、去檢討。以我的瞭解，當時的永久屋大概是3,583戶，原住民地區的受災戶如果以撤離原來的地方是2,379戶，也就是占這三千多戶的85%。當時重建的順序是離災不離村、離村不離鄉，第三個才是集體遷村到離鄉最近的疏散地點，不過絕大多數設置的地方都是在第三個，也就是大概都已經離開他原本生活的範圍。在集體遷村的時候造成很多我們現在可以看到的一些現象，比如說沒有辦法跟當地的文化或者他原來的一些情感連結，造成現在你如果到屏東會看到很多亂象在那邊，我相信主委知道，對不對？"],["曾主任委員智勇：對。"],["盧委員縣一：好，我最主要要講的就是說，現在它那個品質一一浮現，因為當時在建造的時候，大概只用了100天左右的時間來完成這些所謂的永久屋，所以它沒有保固的問題，如果以後有那麼強的風災發生的時候……如果還有永久屋的需求的話，保固應該列為他們以後建造類似房子的時候一個非常重要的選項，因為當時沒有重視這個，以臺東的大武來看，你看它每一個房子幾乎都有呈現大小不一非常嚴重的問題，而且是沒有人可以幫他們解決，因為它是永久屋嘛！已經給你保管，所以你等於是要自己自費去處理，鄉公所也沒有這樣的經費去幫忙他們，比如說排水溝的問題、屋內漏水的問題，諸如此類品質不良的問題。","還有比較重要就是三方契約，當時的三方契約就是受災戶、慈善團體跟縣市政府辦的三方契約，不過這個三方契約非常嚴苛，不得處分、不得出租，也不得設定負擔，不得再回原居住地居住或建造房屋，這個三方契約如果不檢討的話，衍生的問題會越來越多。接下來我們再看下一個問題，三方契約當然是一個美意，不過現在我們看到了世代傳承、人口繁衍、生活發展，包括它的墓地這些都沒有在當時的考量範圍裡面，然後他當時必須在3個月之內離開他原來居住的地方，不得再回原居地。然後還有一個我認為最重要的就是他的土地是地方政府管有，你看一下我們位在原保地的有這些區域，比如說山美、嘉蘭這些，還有我們牡丹，在傳統領域的有來吉的、杉林的、禮納里的這些，我相信主委大概都瞭解。我們希望這個永久屋的土地所有權取得的問題能夠聽當地民眾的真實需求，評估永久屋取得土地所有權的適法性或者是研究其他可行的方案，不然他們在那裡到底是算什麼呢？又不得回原居地，這個土地又不是他的，又不能去承租或者是說……很多限制就對了，好不好？這麼多年了，已經第15年，我相信我們應該好好處理這個問題。監察院已經處理我們災後人權促進會的問題，報告也已經出刊了2年，可是到現在還是沒有相關的配套措施來回應監察院的問題，不是嗎？"],["曾主任委員智勇：我是不是可以跟委員回應一下？"],["盧委員縣一：OK，主委請說。"],["曾主任委員智勇：我跟委員報告，會有永久屋是當時他在平地蓋永久屋，他原來的土地、原來的房子還是他的，就是說這邊永久屋也有他的房子跟土地，原來的房屋讓它休養生息幾年、幾十年之後，他還是可以回去耕作，回去做一個他自己簡易的住的地方都可以，但是在颱風來的時候，你必須要回到你原來的這個……"],["盧委員縣一：我知道，我想要解決的問題就是土地所有權的問題。"],["曾主任委員智勇：對，三方契約的話我們還可以再來談，因為這個房子雖然不是我們族人的，可是他有永久的使用權，其實跟所有權是沒有兩樣的。當然族人希望他取得所有權，因為是三方契約，我們還要跟族人再繼續溝通，好不好？"],["盧委員縣一：OK，我對院長提出一個建議，因為它是跨7個縣市，能不能在最短的時間之內在行政院設立專案辦公室？因為總統也因為執政的關係，他要新設立3個委員會，既然可以成立3個新的委員會，針對這三千多戶，我們能不能在行政院設一個專案辦公室來統合、整理、解決他們現在的問題，可以嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：報告委員，行政院吳澤成前政委已經就永久屋政策主持過專案小組，也開過歷次會議，做了一些重大的決定，譬如為了保障這個土地的永久使用，它不能被列為法拍的一個標的物，所以不能透過這個行為改變，而且……"],["盧委員縣一：目前遇到的所有問題，誰可以解決？比如剛才說排水溝的問題、內部設計不良的問題，還有飲用水，還有殯葬用地這些，如果大家全部都集中在縣市政府，我相信他們沒有辦法解決，一定要中央層級來處理這樣的問題。"],["卓院長榮泰：委員，內政部歷年來也發布過莫拉克颱風災後民間興建贈與住宅修繕補助作業要點，每戶補助10萬元，在112年、113年兩年已經補助地方政府637件，這個有沒有實際上幫助到居住在永久屋裡面的原住民族朋友、莫拉克風災的受災戶？如果還做不到，我們還要再做更多，我想都可以拿出來討論。"],["盧委員縣一：實在是不希望人權促進會到最後又跑到監察院、跑到行政院、跑到哪裡去舉白布條抗議，沒有人去處理他們的問題。如果有一個專案辦公室時時刻刻解決他們的問題，是不是你們就可以預防一些人權團體不時就要來爆發？甚至在屏東有發生過自焚事件。"],["卓院長榮泰：我跟委員報告，剛剛我說過吳澤成前政委所主持的永久屋政策專案小組，我們再回去看看最後開會的結論以及進行的方式如何，我們有必要繼續下去就繼續做這個工作，好不好？如果它已經到了一個階段，我們就讓內政部來協助。"],["盧委員縣一：一定有必要。我還會持續追這個問題，好嗎？主委。"],["曾主任委員智勇：好。"],["盧委員縣一：針對我們原住民禁伐補償，謝謝昨天已經公布法律了，我有看到公告，本席想要確認的是，它會壓縮到我們原有的預算嗎？還是行政院這邊要籌編預算？我只想知道這個答案。"],["卓院長榮泰：請主委先回答一下。"],["曾主任委員智勇：跟委員報告，有關禁伐補償，現在已經公布了，我們現在也在做概算的籌編，當然我們是希望跟農業部再協調，看怎麼樣在森林保育底下還有……所有的保留地、林地，有很多是跟我們農業部重疊的。我們想提報一個中長程計畫，希望多出來的每公頃3萬塊能不能也在這裡面來處理。我們會循程序來提報，當然我們也希望院裡面會給予我們協助。"],["盧委員縣一：因為公告是明年要實施，明年實施沒有問題，也不會打折扣、也沒有但書、也沒有附加條件，這是大家比較關心的問題。有沒有什麼但書、附加條件，然後又說要延後或是怎麼樣？你可以保證明年就可以實施嗎？"],["曾主任委員智勇：目前是沒有延後，我們會窮盡一切的辦法，為了照顧我們的族人……"],["盧委員縣一：謝謝主委。"],["曾主任委員智勇：我們會提出一個辦法，好不好？"],["盧委員縣一：謝謝你，這是我個人在選舉期間最重要的政見。","針對我們原住民文化行政人才的養成，我一再地說明，目前原住民各地區的民族文物館很多，大概有156名臨時人員，我們重視原住民文化，我們認為原住民文化是世界的瑰寶，也是我們臺灣堪稱在世界上引以為傲的一個產業，可是相關的人才培訓確實是沒有，而且我們剛剛看到都不是公務員，如果政府可以把它當作是一個很重要的類科，能不能由人事行政總處增設，在原住民特考裡面開立文化行政職系的員額？"],["曾主任委員智勇：這個跟委員報告，我們會要求縣，尤其是有地方文化館的縣，因為本來我們就在輔導他們做地方文化館轉譯人才的工作，希望他們在原住民特考是不是提報相關的……"],["盧委員縣一：我們一直都在說要增加文化敏感度，看到什麼人就應該知道要說什麼樣的話，可是你都沒有重視的話，永遠都不可能實現啊！"],["曾主任委員智勇：是。"],["盧委員縣一：所以應該要把這個類科加進去，不然以後我們的原住民博物館怎麼辦？如果都沒有正式受專業訓練的一些文化人才，誰去管理民族博物館，還是一般行政的人去嗎？"],["曾主任委員智勇：我們會請縣鄉在考試的時候提報，把文化切出來。"],["卓院長榮泰：報告委員，現行的原住民族特考裡面，我們已經有文化行政這個類科。"],["盧委員縣一：對，只考過一次，只有一個人，那個人已經過世了。"],["卓院長榮泰：人數比較少，但是已經有開辦這樣類科的考試，我想將來還是維持。"],["盧委員縣一：我知道，可是不能……希望能夠持續進行。"],["卓院長榮泰：我們也希望他們到各地方去，希望優秀的、有志於此的、能夠投入文化工作的人，能經過這樣的考試成為一個專業的人才，為國家來服務。這個共同來努力。"],["盧委員縣一：對，它不僅僅是一個文化的載體，比如說醫療環境，以後我們在行車上面、在動線上面，都有一些文化的指引。"],["卓院長榮泰：是的。"],["盧委員縣一：才會展現臺灣的獨特性啊！要不然永遠都是一樣的中正路、中山路，你覺得這個對我們原住民夠尊重嗎？對不對？應該是……"],["卓院長榮泰：我們一起來鼓勵更多的年輕朋友來投入這個考試。"],["盧委員縣一：就是因為沒有這方面相關的人才、專業人才去督促政府要做哪一方面的改變，不然永遠都一樣。","最後再把握一分鐘的時間，國土計畫我比較重視三個問題，第一個問題就是泰雅族普遍的聚落問題。現在的聚落是定義為3戶，我希望針對泰雅族的部分不要以3戶為聚落。當然整體來說，3戶是可以達成，可是就泛泰雅族群來說，因為他散居的獨特性，沒有辦法3戶變成一個聚落，這可以調整，針對泛泰雅族群的。第二個，未辦理保存登記的建物如何取得建照、使用執照？第三個，針對原住民受理合法住宅使用不應該設落日條款，我記得每次在國土計畫法的一些說明會的時候，好像都有落日條款。"],["劉部長世芳：我跟委員報告一下，您剛所說的聚落的定義，一戶叫作聚落真的是很奇怪，所以我們希望可以從這個地方再重新……你剛剛講到落日條款的部分，其實可以再自行舉證重新申請。你第二項所舉的部分，我再跟你解釋一下……"],["盧委員縣一：好，謝謝。"],["卓院長榮泰：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝盧委員，謝謝卓院長。","下一位我們請鄭天財委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":90,"meet_id":"院會-11-1-19","speakers":["韓國瑜","江啟臣","黃健豪","黃仁","盧縣一","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","陳素月","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","林國成","陳瑩","黃珊珊","張智倫","蔡其昌","羅廷瑋","謝龍介","賴士葆","林俊憲","林宜瑾","王定宇","陳永康"],"page_start":17,"meetingDate":["2024-06-25"],"gazette_id":"1136301","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1136301_00003","1136301_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期第19次會議紀錄","content":"施政質詢\n對行政院院長報告施政方針繼續質詢─ 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主委知道嗎?莫拉克這三個字的意思。 莫拉克這三個字是泰國化的綠寶石。那因為它造成這麼大的損害以後,它被永久除名,也就是說以後再也沒有颱風會以莫拉克來命名。"},{"start":87.793,"end":109.262,"text":"好我們就簡單的回顧以後呢我們來看現在的莫拉克的災後重建的這個條例大概在2009年然後到103年一共5年的時間他廢止了那現在廢止的到現在已經將近10年的時間那我們看他現在的一些檢討方案"},{"start":111.107,"end":123.118,"text":"我們的監察院在兩年前曾經提出檢討報告,非常厚的報告,不曉得行政院後來有沒有收到這份報告,我相信一定有。那我這邊,因為你是新任,所以我給你這一份新的。"},{"start":142.776,"end":147.562,"text":"這麼厚的一個檢討報告我不知道相關單位有沒有想死的去看"},{"start":148.186,"end":148.206,"text":"﹚盧縣一﹚"},{"start":178.326,"end":185.307,"text":"不過絕大多數的設置的地方都是在第三個也就是說大概都已經都離開他原本生活的範圍"},{"start":186.653,"end":208.403,"text":"那集體遷村的時候會造成很多我們現在可以看到的一些現象比如說他跟沒有辦法跟當地的文化或者是他原來的一些情感這些糾葛非常的造成現在你如果你到屏東會看到很多亂象在那邊我相信主委知道對不對對好"},{"start":209.663,"end":237.726,"text":"那我最主要要講的就是說現在他那個品質就一一浮現因為當時在建造的時候他大概只用100天左右的時間來完成這些所謂的永久屋所以他沒有所謂的保固的一個問題那所以如果類似以後有這樣的一個那麼強的風災發生的時候如果還有永久屋的一個需求的話應該這個保固的應該列為他們以後在建造類似房子的一個非常重要的一個"},{"start":239.547,"end":266.532,"text":"選項,因為當時沒有重視這個,你看那個臺東的大午來看,你看它每一個房子幾乎都有呈現大小不一的一個非常嚴重的問題,而且是沒有人可以幫他們解決,因為它是永久屋嘛,它是已經給你保管,所以你等於是要自己去自費去處理,相關所有沒有這樣的經費去幫忙他們來,比如說排水溝的問題啦,屋內漏水的問題啦,這些諸如此類品質不良的問題。"},{"start":268.558,"end":293.614,"text":"還有比較重要就是說這個三方契約當時的三方契約就是跟就是受災戶慈善團體跟縣市政府辦的一個三方契約不過這三方契約非常的嚴苛不得處分不得出租也不得設定負擔不得在回原居地居住或建造房屋這個三方契約如果不檢討的話會衍生的問題會越來越多接下來我們再看下一個問題"},{"start":297.369,"end":316.685,"text":"上方契約的當然是一個美意不過他現在我們看到了世代傳承人口繁衍生活發展包括他的目的這些都沒有在當時的考量範圍裡面然後他必須在三個月之內當時要離開他的原來的居住的地方那不得再回原居地"},{"start":317.27,"end":338.217,"text":"然後還有一個就是最重要我認為最重要的就是他的土地是政府地方政府管有你看一下我們呃位在元寶地的有這些區域哈比如說山梅啦加蘭啊這些哈還有我們牡丹那在傳統領域的有有來幾的山林的里那裡的這些我相信主委都大概都了解哈"},{"start":338.777,"end":365.529,"text":"那我們是希望這個永久屋的土地所有權取得的這個問題能夠聽當地民眾的真實需求評估永久屋取得土地所有權的事法性或者是研究其他可行的方案不然他們在那裡到底是算什麼呢又不能回主居地那個土地又不是他的又不能去所謂的成豬或者是說很多限制就對了好不好"},{"start":366.549,"end":385.119,"text":"這麼多年了已經第15年我相信我們應該好好處理這個問題然後呢就是我們監察院竟然已經處理我們災後的人權促進會他的問題可是我們已經初刊了兩年了到現在還是沒有相關的一個配套措施來回應監察院的問題不是嗎"},{"start":390.141,"end":415.888,"text":"我跟委員報告這個永久屋會有永久屋是當時就是說設立他在平地蓋永久屋他原來的土地原來的房子還是他的就是說他這邊永久屋也有也有他的房子跟土地那麼原來的這個房屋讓他休養生息幾年幾十年之後他還是可以回去工作也好回去就是說去做一些檢疫的這個"},{"start":416.787,"end":416.987,"text":"盧縣一盧縣一盧縣一"},{"start":446.767,"end":446.907,"text":"盧縣一、盧縣一、盧縣一﹗"},{"start":467.64,"end":486.198,"text":"執政的關係他要新設立三個委員會他竟然可以成立三個新的委員會針對這三千多戶我們能不能在行政院設立個專案辦公室來統合來整理來解決他們現在的問題可以嗎報告委員呃行政院吳哲成前政委啊他已經就永久屋"},{"start":486.999,"end":501.441,"text":"正策來組織過專案的小組也開過歷次的會議做了一些重大的一些決定比如為了保障這個土地永久的是是使用他不能被列為法拍的一個標的物所以他不能透過這個行為"},{"start":502.162,"end":523.823,"text":"目前所遇到的現在所有的問題誰可以解決．比如說剛才說的排水溝的問題．．內部設計不良的問題．．還有它的引用水．．還有它的那個冰藏的用地這些．．如果大家都全部集中在縣市政府．．我相信他們是沒有辦法來解決．．一定要中央層級來處理這樣的一個問題．．委員在歷年內政部也發布過莫納克颱風災．．"},{"start":525.444,"end":543.167,"text":"後民間興建鎮宇住宅修繕補助作業的要點每戶補助10萬元那麼在112、113兩年補助的地方政府已經有637件這個有沒有實際上幫助到居在永久屋裡面的原住民的朋友"},{"start":543.467,"end":569.529,"text":"莫納克受災的這個受災如果還做不到我們還要再做更多實在是不希望我們所謂的人權促進會到座又跑到監察院跑到行政院跑到哪裡去舉白布條抗議沒人去處理他們的問題如果有個專案的辦公室時時刻刻來解決他們的問題是不是你們就可以預防這些一些人權團體忽時的就要來爆發甚至在屏東有發生過自焚事件"},{"start":570.748,"end":572.51,"text":"一定有必要,不然我還會持續做這個問題,好嗎?"},{"start":572.51,"end":572.61,"text":"主委"},{"start":597.81,"end":620.161,"text":"那針對我們原住民進法補償,謝謝昨天已經公佈法律了,我有看到公告。那本席想要確認的就是說,是他會壓縮到我們原有的預算嗎?還是行政院這邊要籌編預算,我只想知道這個答案。主委跟委員報告,那有關這個進法補償現在是已經公佈了。"},{"start":623.427,"end":650.747,"text":"我們現在也在做概算的籌編當然我們是希望說我們有跟農業部這裡再怎麼樣就是說我們跟他們協調看怎麼樣在這個森林保育底下還有在這麼所有的這個保留地的林地有很多是跟我們這個農業部這裡有重疊的我們在想在提報一個中長城計畫是不是"},{"start":651.627,"end":676.803,"text":"希望那個多出來的3萬塊每公頃3萬塊能不能也在在這個裡面來做來做處理那總是就是我們希望我們會循程序來提報那當然我們也希望就是說這個業裡面會給我們協助這樣公告這是明年要實施嘛就是明年實施沒有問題也不會打折扣也沒有也沒有當書也沒有附加條件這是大家比較關心的問題"},{"start":678.922,"end":679.062,"text":"﹚主席﹚"},{"start":702.677,"end":717.707,"text":"最重要的個人在選舉期間的政見謝謝那針對我們原住民文化行政人才的養成我一再的在說明就是說目前的原住民的各個地區的民族文物館很多大概目前有156名是臨時人員"},{"start":720.009,"end":745.009,"text":"﹏﹏"},{"start":745.441,"end":758.848,"text":"就人事行政總書這邊去徵涉我們針對原住民特考裡面來開立我們文化行政直系的一個源額這個跟委員報告我們會要求縣尤其是特別有這個"},{"start":760.27,"end":760.37,"text":"盧縣一盧縣一"},{"start":789.455,"end":795.099,"text":"報告委員現行的原住民族特考裡面我們已經是有文化行政的對只考過一次只有一個人那個人已經過世了人數比較少人數比較少"},{"start":818.635,"end":839.061,"text":"那這個已經有開辦這樣的類科的考試,我想將來是維持,那我也希望到那個地方去,優秀的,有志於此的,對文化工作能夠投入的,我們也希望他經過這樣的考試,成為一個專業的人才,為國家來服務,這個共同來努力。﹖他不僅僅是一個文化的一個載體,他也可以"},{"start":839.521,"end":839.761,"text":"盧縣一盧縣一盧縣一盧縣"},{"start":866.57,"end":866.67,"text":"（6月25日（"},{"start":880.483,"end":900.637,"text":"現在聚落是商戶嘛,定義為商戶,希望就針對泰雅族的部分不要以商戶為聚落,因為當然是整體來說商戶是可以達成,可是就泰雅族群來說,他的散居的個性,獨特性他沒有辦法商戶變成一個聚落,這個可以做調整,針對泰雅族群的。"},{"start":903.086,"end":930.5,"text":"第二個就是說為辦理保存登記的如何取得建造使用執照。．第三個最後一個就是說．針對我們原住民這個受理．我們的使用住宅的時候．他不應該設落日條款。．因為我記得很像在每次在國土計劃法的一些說明會的時候．很像都有落日條款。 是我跟委員報告一下您剛所說的這個聚落的定義"},{"start":947.347,"end":947.848,"text":"好,謝謝。謝謝盧委員。謝謝卓院長。"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}