{"error":false,"id":["154170"],"data":{"IVOD_ID":154170,"IVOD_URL":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154170","日期":"2024-06-25","會議資料":{"會議代碼":"院會-11-1-19","會議代碼:str":"第11屆第1會期第19次會議","屆":11,"會期":1,"會次":19,"臨時會會次":null,"種類":"院會","標題":"立法院第11屆第1會期第19次會議"},"影片種類":"Clip","開始時間":"2024-06-25T10:56:04+08:00","結束時間":"2024-06-25T11:12:11+08:00","影片長度":"00:16:07","支援功能":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/63224dc0dd2f91fb0160bf17eeed85194c867c7a3ae89c54664f2be01c033e419e5d282be114f2d35ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林國成","委員發言時間":"10:56:04 - 11:12:11","會議時間":"2024-06-25T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"第11屆第1會期第19次會議（事由：一、覆議案之處理事項。（6月21日）\n二、對行政院院長報告施政方針繼續質詢。（6月25日）\n三、6月21日上午9時至10時為國是論壇時間。 \n四、6月25日下午1時50分至2時30分為處理臨時提案時間。）","gazette":{"lineno":259,"blocks":[["林委員國成：（10時56分）謝謝主席，請行政院卓院長、內政部劉部長。"],["主席：請卓院長、內政部劉部長備詢。"],["卓院長榮泰：林委員好。"],["劉部長世芳：委員好。"],["林委員國成：好。院長、部長，我想辛苦了。"],["卓院長榮泰：不會。"],["林委員國成：但是我特別一定要去強調，本黨一向是秉持理性、務實、科學，所以請你放心，我不會吵架，但是有一點，希望本席提出來的問題，院長就據實以對。我想院長當然於公於私，我個人是尊重的，但是我也希望部長針對問題的時候，特別要針對問題來回答本席，因為我也第一個不吵架，第二個針對問題，所以我們是務實來對白。"],["卓院長榮泰：謝謝委員，其實我覺得質詢就像一面鏡子……"],["林委員國成：是。"],["卓院長榮泰：你看到的我就跟我看到的你一樣。"],["林委員國成：是。院長，我要你看一下，我們全國你的八萬大軍，也就是警察的形象，在這十年來，所有公務人員當中，形象最好的是警察，是完全被老百姓所承認的，所以我希望部長跟院長可以去看一下這個數據。各類公務人員的形象，過去警察是倒數的，可是這十年來，你們確確實實讓警察的形象提高了，老百姓過去對警察是又愛又恨，很討厭警察，但是又很需要警察，但是現在是倒過來，每一件事情都需要警察，所以第一個，我還是要肯定行政院跟內政部對於這部分的努力。但是我今天要跟院長、部長探討的就是，警察形象雖好，但是他的辛酸誰人知道？所以我今天借重這次的質詢，要讓院長跟部長去了解他們的酸甜苦辣。所以，院長，或許你管不到這裡，但是你一定要督導……"],["卓院長榮泰：是。"],["林委員國成：警察自戕增多這個問題非常嚴重，院長，原因何在？根據103年到112年的統計，總共有52個警員自戕，平均每一年5個，但是今年從1月份到現在，我們已經有8個警察自戕，這代表什麼？代表雖然我們形象好，但是這部分確確實實在增加，為什麼警察的自戕會增加？所以，院長，這個議題值得多加思考，因為是你的八萬大軍，其實，臺灣很多的治安通通都是依靠警察，他貢獻良多，你們只是做政策引導，但是為什麼往年平均都5個，今年1月到6月已經8個，院長，你知道什麼原因嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：應該是工作的壓力、家庭的因素，甚至有經濟的考量等等，還有個人對自己工作上未來的一些機會、陞遷，都會造成他工作的壓力。我想對員警我們都是非常的關懷，應該要從心理的層面，透過各種的政策去協助、瞭解、輔導，讓他能夠在人生觀以及工作的崗位上面能夠有一個比較正向的想法，所以我最近利用外出的時候，我真的經常到派出所，不預告、不通知的去坐一坐，看看他們實際的狀況，也許環境並不是那麼理想，我們要從這個方向來進步。"],["林委員國成：是，院長，你也是從基層上來，部長也是從基層上來，本席也是從基層上來，有時候看到警察他們的辛酸史，不是他們不做，而是他們的工作非常繁雜，已經讓他們的心靈無法承擔。院長，來！我為什麼今天要跟你探討這個問題，院長只有講對一半，每一次自戕的發生調查起來都只有三種原因，一、經濟；二、家庭因素；三、感情，院長、部長，難道真的只有這三種嗎？不是！所以我在這裡特別要院長去關心、要部長去重視，這個是非常重要的，因為原本每一年5個，現在從1月到6月已經8個，那這個原因是什麼？當然，我們也承認，新的警政署長張署長一上任，他是從基層上來，他就取消了十幾項不必要的評比，這也是一個減輕壓力的作法。所以我希望院長在督導、在關心和部長在執行的時候，要把這個列為重點，就是為什麼他會自戕，一個人的生命是可貴的，那為什麼他會這樣，因為他沒有辦法，就像院長所講的，精神壓力很大，身心靈已經受到非常沉重的壓力，不管是家庭也好，不管是工作也好，但是你們的報告裡面都是寫經濟、家庭、感情，這樣只有答對一半，因為工作壓力也有可能。所以我今天最主要是要提醒院長，你要去重視這個問題，那部長也特別要對這個事情加以預防，因為預防勝於治療。部長，我要聽聽你對這件事情的說法，本席質詢這個問題，雖然是一個小問題，但是非常的重大，現在已經有8個家庭是破碎的，那些家庭是雜亂的，所以我要聽聽部長的說法，你對這個問題要不要重視？"],["劉部長世芳：報告委員，我想您的觀察非常的正確，因為你本來就是非常關心警消的權益，在我上任之後，包括張榮興署長上任之後，真的是取消不必要的評比，減輕他們在工作上面不必要的壓力。那我們都知道，社會變遷確實造成很多多元的、不同的壓力來源，我想每一個行業都會有，但是我們對警察同仁是把他們當成自己的兄弟姐妹，所以當我知道我們現在關於心理輔導的機制只有80萬的時候，我感到非常的訝異，我今年已經提高到300萬，希望明年提高到500萬，而且不是只有內部裡面所謂的關老師這些，我希望他們去找大醫院身心健康科的醫師，可以用駐診的方式，可以用協助的方式，而且是散布在北、中、南每個地方，而不是只有在大都會地區，這樣來協助他們，讓他們在工作之餘也可以找專業的身心健康科醫師來做諮詢，我相信能夠慢慢減輕他們在這方面的壓力。那當然重點就是在於我們未來在勤務上面能不能再做簡化，讓大家更尊重警察，但是警察也不需要為了不必要的、繁重的評比而付出很多時間。"],["林委員國成：部長，你發現到這個問題，我要拜託院長，真的你要支持內政部，真的一定要去支持，為什麼？根據這些資料，也就是全國自殺防治中心的推估，我們雖然是8萬，我們六萬多個警察，有1萬個人需要心理輔導，1萬人喔！所以你的預算111年的時候是編80萬，112年當然有提升，現在你說要編300萬、500萬，部長，不夠！因為有一萬多個人。","我們可以去看看國外的警察，雖然他的業務繁重，但他是有業餘輔導時間喔！這個就跟心理有關係，所以我要拜託院長，這個部分你要把它當成……不要以為員警自戕是一個小事，錯！真的是一個大事！"],["卓院長榮泰：絕對是大事。"],["林委員國成：更何況為什麼我會提出這個諮詢？最主要的原因是因為警察在這裡都沒有人替他發聲，所以我要拜託院長在這個部分，有一萬多個人需要去諮詢，現在變成我們都沒有專業的人員，你要用局長、用隊長、用長官去做這些輔導是不行的。"],["劉部長世芳：不是、不是，對不起，我們是專業的……"],["卓院長榮泰：報告委員，除了剛剛部長講的預算有增加之外，我們委外諮詢的機構也從94處會增加到120處，未來有需要的話，我們還是會跟大的機構、大的醫院來合作，就是朝他的生命教育以及他的情緒管理、壓力抒解……"],["林委員國成：要專業啦！"],["卓院長榮泰：來做一些更有效的……"],["林委員國成：院長，我提出這個問題都沒有政治性的問題。"],["卓院長榮泰：瞭解，很好，謝謝委員。"],["林委員國成：是你們自己的警察這些人命關天的問題，也讓警察覺得在這個警察家庭裡面，第一個，他雖然要出勤，但是他是受保障、受關懷的，所以部長，這個部分真的是比較缺乏。"],["劉部長世芳：是。"],["林委員國成：因為你們兩位也剛上任，所以在這個部分，長官非常重要，如果這個預算可以多撥一點，災害就會少一點。我看今年，尤其今年已經8件了、8件了，也有新的，也有長官，也有什麼……所以這些東西不要有粉飾太平的心態，真的要正視這個問題！"],["劉部長世芳：是，我們不會等閒視之。"],["林委員國成：部長，本席在這裡要建議，第一個，擴大這個部分的預算；第二個，輔導要有專業化。不是自己長官來輔導，這個效果不彰，好不好？"],["劉部長世芳：我們沒有朝這個方向。"],["林委員國成：另外就是要做一個長期研究，為什麼會這樣。最後一個就是我們的工作能夠減少就減少，當然也不是說什麼都不做，最起碼不必要的評比能減就減，我相信現在的張署長也很願意去聽這些事，所以在這裡本席要特別拜託院長多支持內政部，拜託部長要多關心我們全國警察的這個部分，好不好？"],["卓院長榮泰：報告委員，剛剛部長講的那個我們擴大預算或增加諮詢機構的事情，我會請部長請署長、各縣市的局長、分局長一直落實到基層下去，一定要完全來注意到這個事情……"],["林委員國成：是的。"],["卓院長榮泰：我們即刻加強來做。"],["林委員國成：是啦！院長，你現在就很好啊！到派出所去慰問、慰問，這樣會鼓舞士氣啊！這個做法是對的，好不好？過去行政院長很少去關心警政的問題，雖然這是很重要的，但是只要院長一個好聽話可以鼓舞我們的士氣，這是很重要的。我不是警界出身，但是我看到警察這樣的情況，認為真的是有必要，希望院長這裡能夠支持、部長這裡能夠去關懷，好不好？","另外，我利用這個小小的時間特別來跟部長研究臺北市中山區大彎北段這個案子，其實這個案子我要替這些住民跟院長、部長投訴，這個不要變成歷史的共業啦！其實這是過去的政府他們規劃不當，造成老百姓既成事實的歷史共業，所以在這個部分有沒有可能……據我瞭解，好，你說過去是柯文哲想要做，現在蔣萬安所要做的，但是我們不要有政黨色彩嘛！我跟你講，老百姓也是你卓院長的子民啊！所以在這個部分有沒有好好的……拜託部長、拜託院長不要有政治思考。"],["卓院長榮泰：不會。"],["林委員國成：能不能在這個部分，因為善意的第三者是大彎北段的住戶，但是他要接受罰單、他要接受這些折磨，所以，院長，能不能在你的任內請我們劉部長在這個部分，也就是我們內政部的國土署在審這個預算的時候不要有顏色，只要針對問題來解決？我也建議，真的能夠中央跟地方把這個問題解決？是老百姓受益！所以，這個部分，部長，我相信你也剛來，但是沒有人送案子、退案子，已經將近4年，這是對臺北市大彎北段、大直地區1,800多戶的這些住戶非常不公平、非常不公平，這是前任政府的錯誤，要解決問題，應該是在卓內閣、卓院長的領導之下，把這個問題來解決！至於法令哪邊要怎麼做，中央政府跟地方政府要好好商討，把這個問題解決掉，因為受益的是老百姓！","院長，這個事情，本席已經跟你請命，那我也要拜託部長，你把它當成這是一件事，所以希望我們中央政府跟地方政府好好的去商討，圓滿地把它解決。院長，可以嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：我知道很多的居民為了這個事情處理了很久，地方民代也相當關心，現在瞭解到可能居民要付出一點點什麼樣的條件，這個再合理的來協商。"],["林委員國成：好啦！院長，關心一下啦！"],["卓院長榮泰：好，我知道。"],["林委員國成：部長，關心一下。"],["劉部長世芳：會跟臺北市府來協商。"],["林委員國成：我反對有顏色的審查。"],["卓院長榮泰：不會、不會。"],["林委員國成：我希望老百姓就是老百姓，好不好？"],["卓院長榮泰：好。"],["林委員國成：這個拜託院長、拜託部長一下，好不好？"],["卓院長榮泰：謝謝委員指教，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝林委員，謝謝院長。下一位我們請陳瑩委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":90,"meet_id":"院會-11-1-19","speakers":["韓國瑜","江啟臣","黃健豪","黃仁","盧縣一","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","陳素月","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","林國成","陳瑩","黃珊珊","張智倫","蔡其昌","羅廷瑋","謝龍介","賴士葆","林俊憲","林宜瑾","王定宇","陳永康"],"page_start":17,"meetingDate":["2024-06-25"],"gazette_id":"1136301","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1136301_00003","1136301_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期第19次會議紀錄","content":"施政質詢\n對行政院院長報告施政方針繼續質詢─ 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院長或許你管不到這裡但是你一定要督導警察自強爭奪這個問題非常嚴重一定 原因何在那計103年到112年他的統計總共有52個警員自強平均每一年5個"},{"start":202.202,"end":216.133,"text":"但是從1月份到現在我們警察治強已經8個這代表什麼?就代表雖然我們形象好但是在這個部分確確實實為什麼會治強這個部分會"},{"start":223.198,"end":248.683,"text":"所以院長這個是值得啊因為是你的八萬大軍其實臺灣很多的治安通通都是警察他貢獻良多你們只是做政策引導但是在這裡為什麼平均都五個現在一月到六月已經八個院長你知道什麼原因嗎"},{"start":252.284,"end":266.374,"text":"應該工作的壓力、家庭的因素甚至有經濟的考量等等還有個人對自己工作上未來的一些機會、升先都是造成他工作的壓力我想對員警我們都是非常的關懷"},{"start":267.495,"end":268.315,"text":"你也是從基層上來,部長也是從基層上來。"},{"start":295.543,"end":316.053,"text":"本席也是從基層上來有時候看到警察他們的心酸是不是他們不做而是他們的工作環雜已經到他們心靈無法承擔來一六來其實我為什麼今天要跟你探討這個問題其實沒事發生"},{"start":320.287,"end":341.376,"text":"院長只有講對一半,每一次事情自強的發生,都是調查起來只有三種,一、經濟,二、家庭因素,三、暫停,感情,四。（所以一天不定,感覺好像七三行而已,不是欸,不是。"},{"start":341.963,"end":370.942,"text":"所以我在這裡特別要院長去關心要部長去重視這個是非常重要的因為五個每年五個現在一月到六月已經八個那這個原因為什麼當然我們也承認新的警政署長張署長他一上任他從基層上來他就取消十幾項不必要的評評"},{"start":372.924,"end":399.483,"text":"這個也是一個減薪,所以我希望院長在督導在關心部長在執行的時候要把這個放為重點是為什麼他會自強一個人的生命是可貴的那為什麼他會這樣他沒有辦法就像院長所講的精神壓力生命已經受到非常嚴重的沉重壓力"},{"start":400.484,"end":420.417,"text":"不管是家庭也好不管是工作也好但是你們的報告裡面都是經濟家庭感情這一點只有答對一半工作壓力也有可能所以我要今天最主要是要跟院長提醒你要去重視這個問題那部長"},{"start":422.762,"end":443.799,"text":"特別要對這個事情要去預防甚過於治療。部長,我要聽聽你對這件事情本席執行這個問題雖是一個小問題但是是一個非常重大現在已經有8個那個家庭是破碎的那個家庭是一個雜亂的"},{"start":445.981,"end":470.357,"text":"我要傾聽部長,你針對這個要不要重視?我想您的觀察非常的正確,因為你本來就是非常關心警消的權益。在我上任之後,還有包括我們張榮興署長上任之後,真的是取消不必要的評比,減輕他們在工作上面不必要的壓力。我們都知道社會變遷確實造成很多多元的不同的壓力的來源,我想每一個行業都會有。"},{"start":470.657,"end":473.298,"text":"我希望他們去找大醫院的這些身心健康的科的這個醫師呢﹖可以用助診的方式﹖可以用協助的方式﹖而且去散步在"},{"start":497.765,"end":498.285,"text":"你發現到這個問題我要拜託院長"},{"start":527.642,"end":538.144,"text":"真的你要支持內政部真的一定要去支持為什麼根據這些資料根據這些資料也就說全國防止"},{"start":539.269,"end":559.041,"text":"自殺防止中心他的推估我們雖然是8萬我們6萬多個警察他是有1萬個人是需要心理輔導1萬喔所以你變那個以前11年的時候變80萬12年當然有提升現在你說要變300萬500萬不定不夠的"},{"start":563.544,"end":586.405,"text":"因為有一萬多個一萬多個我們可以去看一看國外的警察他雖然他的業務繁重但是他是有業餘輔導時間喔所以這個就跟心靈有關係所以我要拜託在這個部分院長你要把他當成不要以為嚴謹一個字自強"},{"start":587.466,"end":612.777,"text":"是一個小事,錯!真的是一個大事!那更何況為什麼我會提出這個執行最主要的原因是因為警察在這裡都沒有人替他發聲所以我要拜託院長在這個部分一萬多個需要去執行現在變成我們都沒有專業的人員你要用局長、用隊長、用長官去做這些輔導"},{"start":613.717,"end":613.897,"text":"律師律師"},{"start":634.558,"end":663.058,"text":"我提出這個問題都沒有政治性的問題是你們自己的警察的這些人命關天的問題也讓警察覺得是在這個警察家庭裡面他是第一個雖然出勤但是他是受保障他是受關懷所以在這個部分部長真的是比較缺乏因為你們兩位也剛上任所以在這個部分長官非常重要如果在這個預算可以多撥一點"},{"start":664.381,"end":679.814,"text":"災害就會少一點所以我看今年尤其今年已經8件了8件了也有新的也有長官也有什麼所以這些東西不要粉飾太平的心態真的要正視這個問題我本席在這裡要建議第一個擴大這個部分的預算第二個輔導要有專業化"},{"start":691.583,"end":712.49,"text":"我不是自己長官啊,他來輔導這個效果不彰化。 那另外就是要做一個長期研究,為什麼會這樣?最後一個就是我們的工作能夠減少就減少。當然也不是說什麼都不做,最起碼的話不必要的評比能減就減。"},{"start":713.53,"end":733.267,"text":"我相信現在的張署長他也很願意去聽這些事所以在這裡本席特別拜託院長多支持內政部拜託部長你要多關心我們這個全國的警察這個部分好不好報告委員剛剛部長講的那個我們擴大預算或增加諮詢機構的事情我會請部長"},{"start":736.468,"end":750.478,"text":"請署長、各縣市的局長、分局長一直落職到基層下去,一定要完全來注意到這個事情。 是啦,鄉議員長你現在就很好啊,到拍手去慰問慰問,這個會鼓舞士氣啊,這個做法是對的。"},{"start":751.218,"end":752.018,"text":"另外一個﹖"},{"start":780.129,"end":800.714,"text":"我利用這個小小的時間特別來跟部長研究臺北市中山區大灣北段這個案子。 其實這個案子我要替這些住民跟院長投訴跟部長投訴。"},{"start":802.334,"end":820.229,"text":"這個不要變成這個歷史的工業啦。 其實這是過去的政府他們的規劃不當而造成老百姓繼承事實的歷史工業。 所以在這個部分有沒有可能據我了解"},{"start":821.03,"end":849.444,"text":"好,你說過去是柯文哲想要做,現在蔣萬安主要做,但是我們不要有政黨色彩嘛,我跟你講老百姓也是你卓院長的子民啊,所以在這個部分有沒有好好的拜託部長拜託院長不要有政治思考,能不能在這個部分,因為善意的第三者是大灣北段的祝福。"},{"start":850.128,"end":867.87,"text":"他要接受滑單他要接受這些折磨所以院長能不能在你的任內請我們劉部長在這個部分也就是我們內政部的國土署在審這個預算的時候不要有顏色只要問題來解決"},{"start":869.292,"end":886.144,"text":"我也建議真的能夠中央跟地方把這個問題解決是老百姓受益所以這個部分部長我相信你也剛來但是沒有人送案子退案子已經將近四年"},{"start":886.844,"end":912.654,"text":"這是對臺北市大灣北段大直地區有1800多戶的這些住戶非常不公平非常不公平是前任政府的錯誤來解決問題應該是在卓內閣卓院長的領導之下把這個問題來解決那至於法令哪邊要怎麼做中央政府跟地方政府要好好商討把這個問題解決掉因為為什麼"},{"start":915.735,"end":919.236,"text":"．6月25日．6月25日下午1時50分為處理臨時提案時間。．6月25日．6月25日下午1時50分為處理臨時提案時間。"},{"start":964.694,"end":965.635,"text":"好,謝謝林委員"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}