{"error":false,"id":["154179"],"data":{"IVOD_ID":154179,"IVOD_URL":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154179","日期":"2024-06-25","會議資料":{"會議代碼":"院會-11-1-19","會議代碼:str":"第11屆第1會期第19次會議","屆":11,"會期":1,"會次":19,"臨時會會次":null,"種類":"院會","標題":"立法院第11屆第1會期第19次會議"},"影片種類":"Clip","開始時間":"2024-06-25T14:30:37+08:00","結束時間":"2024-06-25T14:46:53+08:00","影片長度":"00:16:16","支援功能":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/63224dc0dd2f91fb723bb242a272b8694c867c7a3ae89c54160a2b78e90c253b53aeae6a5651927f5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"蔡其昌","委員發言時間":"14:30:37 - 14:46:53","會議時間":"2024-06-25T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"第11屆第1會期第19次會議（事由：一、覆議案之處理事項。（6月21日）\n二、對行政院院長報告施政方針繼續質詢。（6月25日）\n三、6月21日上午9時至10時為國是論壇時間。 \n四、6月25日下午1時50分至2時30分為處理臨時提案時間。）","gazette":{"lineno":2,"blocks":[["蔡委員其昌：（14時31分）主席、各位列席的官員，大家午安。麻煩主席請卓院長。"],["主席：麻煩請卓院長備詢。"],["卓院長榮泰：蔡委員好。"],["蔡委員其昌：院長午安。今天本席跟上一次一樣，本席對於總質詢還是提出年輕朋友最關心的居住正義，也就是我們對於臺灣不斷上漲的房價，怎麼讓年輕朋友可以有一個家，所以社宅是本席從當副院長再回過頭來當委員，我們一直在關注的一個問題。一開始我先讓卓院長瞭解幾個數據，第一個，我想這個叫臺股總市值，也就是過去八年的時間，蔡政府對於臺灣經濟在方向上、政策規劃上，事實上是做對了一些方向，所以你看我們從2016年開始，臺股的總市值從23.9兆幾乎成長三倍，到今年5月臺股的總市值已經達到67.3兆，換言之，它創造一定程度的財富效果。第二個部分我們來看一下，我隨便抓一個年份，當然新的部分有時候有些國家還沒有出來，我們就用2021年來做一個比較。院長，你可以看得到臺灣人或者說華人非常喜歡存款，所以你看臺灣的國民儲蓄率接近50%，你看相對於美國17%、英國15%、加拿大23%、南韓才33%，所以國人的錢很多。第三個部分，我想院長也很清楚，我們的政策裡面希望包括過去臺商的錢，我們透過政策讓臺商的錢引流回臺投資臺灣。","所以這三個數據我們都可以看到一個現象，臺灣人很多錢，游資充斥，而游資充斥的結果，臺灣人又喜歡買土地、買房子，換言之，供給有限的房子不斷地因為游資充沛，所以大家不斷在供需沒辦法平衡的情況底下，我們的房價可以說節節高升。現在我們都不是在談蛋黃區了，現在年輕朋友是談到蛋殼區，蛋白大概也買不起了，大家都在談蛋殼區，所以我們一直在做一件事情，你看從民國105年開始，我們一連串無論是房地合一稅2.0，或者109年通過所謂的打炒房三法，從109年央行開始不斷祭出選擇性信用管制，其實這些政策都是希望透過政策來打炒房。可是院長也知道，回顧105年到109年一路到今天，我們打炒房的效果非常有限，也就是我們眼睜睜看著政策不斷推出，但房價不斷上漲，所以這表示我們的政策面對所謂的房地產、面對房子政策的時候，我們出現了一些問題。","本席的看法認為很簡單，第一個，我覺得房子有居住正義，也就是有社會正義的一個面向，這個政府應該來做，應該來照顧年輕人、照顧弱勢。但是院長你也不要忘記，房地產還有市場性，也就是房子、土地在臺灣的自由市場情況底下，它作為一種商品，所以它有它自由市場的供需狀態要去滿足，所以在這個情況底下，我想只透過政策來做是非常有限，也因為如此，本席過去以來一直積極希望對於社會住宅的推動，無論中央政府或者地方政府，都應該要卯足全力，也就是我們常常喜歡談的叫做優先法案或者政府的施政重點。本席不厭其煩又花了大概5分鐘的時間來論述這一段，因為賴總統上任，卓內閣也上任，所以我很希望從卓院長的口中聽到，社會住宅的政策、社會住宅的推動是不是卓內閣重要的優先法案，或者是優先要做的政策？"],["卓院長榮泰：報告委員，當然是，這不僅是我們現在全力在做的，但是我們也發現在過去八年，蔡前總統的任內建立了一套機制，目前這套機制正往正向在發展，那我們現在的責任就是讓它做得更快、更多、更好，所以數字會呈現出來。"],["蔡委員其昌：謝謝院長。我們就來具體進入這個政策的內容。蔡總統的目標，八年他要蓋12萬戶，所以我們把它做了一個統計，幾乎我們從目前既有的、新完工的、興建中的、決標而待開工的，以及目前規劃中的，這樣加一加剛好十二萬六千多戶。換言之，大概蔡總統說八年要蓋12萬戶的目標，這個算是有一個初步的成果。"],["卓院長榮泰：是。"],["蔡委員其昌：我看了一下賴總統所提，他希望未來的八年，當然他現在第一任是四年，但規劃是用八年來做規劃，如果他八年目標是25萬戶的社宅，那我看了一下25萬戶的社宅，換言之，除了將蔡總統都已經規劃好尚未完工的，把它蓋完，賴總統還要再蓋13萬戶。"],["卓院長榮泰：對。"],["蔡委員其昌：那我也舉一個數據讓卓院長看一下，從全世界各國社會住宅的比例來看，各位可以看得到，荷蘭社宅比例是34%，不要講到荷蘭，我們光隔壁的日本或者高度資本主義國家的美國、新加坡或者其他國家，臺灣只有0.8%，所以卓院長，就算你25萬戶八年可以如期完成，其實占比還是很低，這個0.8%，我再給你加1%好了，因為你蓋13萬戶，你也不過1.8%，1.8%我再給你四捨五入，算2%好了，你距離人家還是非常的遙遠。本席雖然知道你有很多的難處，因為內政部都會來我辦公室報告，但是我認為這個都是什麼，這個都是因為站在內政部的立場，部長也站在旁邊，如果以內政部之力要來完成，13萬戶他們就是認為有進步了。但是以本席的角度，13萬戶，那個叫勉強，不能叫及格，那叫勉強不及格，本席認為應該目標就設定25萬戶，不是設定蔡總統的12萬戶加你的13萬戶，賴政府就應該直接25萬戶，這個比例才可以勉強追得上。所以社宅的比例過低，我們如果要來推動，除了大家都知道，以前陳總統的時代，中部科學園區化不可能為可能，那時候大家說一個科學園區要做得好，沒有三、五年以上是不可能的，結果呢？當時陳前總統的時代，將士用命，大家把中部科學園區當成一個很重要的目標，所以你看兩年的時間中部科學園區就好了。所以本席認為這個叫事在人為啦！如果今天賴政府、卓內閣對於年輕人居住正義的問題，認為社宅是解決目前房價高漲或者年輕人要住得起房子很重要的解方之一，我認為就應該要傾全力來做這件事情，而不是這件事情只請劉世芳部長的內政部，甚至下面的住都中心去想辦法找地啊、蓋房子啊，這個不通啦！所以本席會利用總質詢很寶貴的時間來請卓院長針對社宅的問題，能否以最快速的方式把目標再調整一下，不要只訂13萬戶，那個是勉強、是不及格啦！可不可以目標就直接調升1倍，我們就把它變成25萬戶？"],["卓院長榮泰：兩點跟委員報告，第一點，我們的社會住宅政策除了直接興建之外，委員也知道我們還有包租代管跟租金補貼，分別有25萬戶跟50萬戶。而委員所關心的直接興建，我們秉持的態度是我們直接、很誠實地看到問題，所以務實地提出這樣的數據，這是一個方法；再來就是我們踏實地要在未來的8年內興建包括前面12萬戶之外的13萬戶，這是從誠實、務實、踏實的角度來出發。當然我們看過去的經驗，會讓我們在未來的8年更有一些依據，可循過去的經驗做得更多、更好，那麼如果在當中我們有更好的方式的話，當然數字可能是浮動的，但現在我們是朝這個目標來做各項的努力。以上跟委員報告。"],["蔡委員其昌：本席還是覺得，就是卓院長的回答我不是叫做不滿意，賴總統要連任，他一定要有幾件事情是讓所有國人同胞覺得賴總統在這幾樣事情做得有夠好；像是蔡總統，很簡單嘛，他把臺灣的能見度、把整個臺灣的經濟等等，他有幾件很重要的事情是大家記得很清楚的。我認為把社會住宅這件事情傾全力把它做好，是賴總統未來4年他要連任時，年輕朋友會記得最清楚的，蔡總統雖然有提出興建12萬戶，他是起頭，但是你要知道年輕朋友不買單，12萬戶在蔡總統的總統在任或者選舉過程裡面，年輕朋友是沒有跟我們站在一起的。","所以本席只是建議啦，我說我對你的回答不是滿意的原因，就是本席只是建議，你的回答是你把它當一件事，但你沒有把它當最重要的事情，所以本席還是認為這件事情你們去思考一下，有哪幾件事情是卓院長你在任內，你覺得我要傾全力把它做好的事情，我覺得挑一、兩樣出來做，這一、兩樣做下去是對臺灣的鄉親、臺灣的民眾非常有感的，所以本席只是建議你，或許你有其他的選項，因為本席沒有問到，所以你可能不知道。"],["卓院長榮泰：跟委員報告，即使我們有更多的選項，即使有更多的選項，社會住宅、社會居住正義這件事永遠是我們很重要的一個優先事項。"],["蔡委員其昌：對，本席就隨便建議，你可以聽聽，譬如說公私協力，也就是什麼叫做傾全力？內政部一定沒有這樣的全力，譬如在所有我們的科學園區、工業區的附近跟大型企業合作，因為他們的年輕員工也需要社宅，所以讓他們來蓋，蓋要有誘因，不是只是說你們要去蓋喔！不是，而是政府說如果你配合我蓋，甚至你可以跟建商或者其他有需要的，我也講過嘛、我也跟部長建議過，我們的消防員、警消的宿舍，你看有多老舊！宿舍非常地老舊；然後你看，平均屋齡超過50年，而且嚴重不足，全國只有1.7%的警察人員和1.4%的消防員實際配有職務宿舍，22個縣市有17個縣市未提供消防員職務宿舍，所以這個需求很大，這個東西要怎麼去蓋？這個跟社宅可不可以結合？譬如說容積可以蓋的戶數比原來的消防員需求更高，你就應該把它蓋滿。所以我的意思是要跟院長提醒，行政院擁有所有各部會，如果各部會把社宅當成一件事情，那就不是內政部的事情，那是行政院的事情，也就是本席所提到，這個叫傾行政院的力氣來做事。所以我剛剛所提到的跟你的意見不大一樣是，我知道你會按部就班把社宅當成一件重要的事情，但我要求的不是當成一件重要的事情，我要求的是行政院應該傾全力讓年輕人這些年來面對高房價、面對租不起房子的問題，我認為這個居住正義的事情我們應該傾全力來把它解決！","時間剩下最後一分鐘，我也從此提醒，我再舉一個表格，你看這個中籤率，我舉一個中籤率你看喔，關於臺中地區、桃園地區、臺北地區，你可以看到那個中籤率有的都只有低到個位數，平均也大概都只有百分之十幾、二十左右。這表示大家對社會住宅的需求是很高的！哪怕你還有包租代管、租金補貼，我都不反對啦，但基本上還是沒有辦法，因為你看這個中籤率就知道，大家對社宅的需求還是存在；另外，我們在媒體上也看到所謂的開名車住社宅，或者最近大家在檢討的購屋低利貸款等等。因為時間的關係，本席只是提醒，面對這些被媒體揭露出來，可能我們在政策推動裡面有一些瑕疵、缺點的部分，我也希望內政部或是相關的主管機關一併要把它查清楚，不要再有這種事情出現！","因為時間的關係，再次謝謝兩位，謝謝。"],["卓院長榮泰：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝蔡其昌委員的質詢，也謝謝卓院長的備詢。","接下來我們請登記第12號羅廷瑋委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":90,"meet_id":"院會-11-1-19","speakers":["韓國瑜","江啟臣","黃健豪","黃仁","盧縣一","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","陳素月","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","林國成","陳瑩","黃珊珊","張智倫","蔡其昌","羅廷瑋","謝龍介","賴士葆","林俊憲","林宜瑾","王定宇","陳永康"],"page_start":17,"meetingDate":["2024-06-25"],"gazette_id":"1136301","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1136301_00003","1136301_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期第19次會議紀錄","content":"施政質詢\n對行政院院長報告施政方針繼續質詢─ 繼續質詢─","agenda_id":"1136301_00004"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":23.06534375,"end":27.92534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":28.364093750000002,"end":29.832218750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":39.02909375,"end":41.05409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":41.76284375,"end":49.39034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":49.744718750000004,"end":50.571593750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":51.07784375,"end":56.680343750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":57.304718750000006,"end":60.32534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":60.83159375,"end":65.97846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":66.21471875,"end":69.03284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":69.91034375000001,"end":71.74971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":71.98596875,"end":73.99409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":74.75346875000001,"end":77.03159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":77.58846875,"end":80.96346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":81.38534375,"end":85.89096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":86.46471875,"end":88.59096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":88.99596875,"end":92.33721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":92.52284375,"end":97.24784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":97.66971875,"end":98.78346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":99.15471875,"end":102.64784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":102.93471875,"end":106.96784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":107.60909375,"end":109.31346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":109.98846875000001,"end":110.61284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":111.40596875000001,"end":117.86909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":118.71284375,"end":122.12159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":122.54346875,"end":124.65284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":125.15909375000001,"end":127.55534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":128.48346875000001,"end":130.98096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":131.48721875,"end":135.63846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":136.09409375,"end":139.50284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":140.38034375,"end":141.66284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":142.15221875,"end":145.81409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":146.13471875000002,"end":148.98659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":149.10471875000002,"end":153.79596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":154.45409375,"end":154.79159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":155.53409375,"end":160.10721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":160.76534375,"end":162.13221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":163.00971875000002,"end":167.71784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":167.88659375,"end":169.62471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":170.06346875,"end":181.62284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":182.38221875000002,"end":185.57159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":185.65596875,"end":192.27096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":193.04721875,"end":195.40971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":195.86534375000002,"end":196.87784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":197.55284375000002,"end":198.51471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":198.86909375000002,"end":204.06659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":204.33659375000002,"end":209.46659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":210.19221875000002,"end":214.56284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":214.81596875000002,"end":219.77721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":220.70534375000003,"end":225.43034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":226.03784375,"end":228.95721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":229.21034375000002,"end":231.25221875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":231.47159375,"end":234.66096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":235.42034375000003,"end":242.91284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":243.84096875,"end":244.27971875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":244.58346875,"end":247.23284375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":247.63784375,"end":252.26159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":252.56534375,"end":253.99971875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":254.37096875,"end":256.98659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":257.42534375,"end":259.77096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":259.97346875,"end":263.29784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":263.60159375,"end":268.90034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":269.49096875000004,"end":274.77284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":275.56596875,"end":276.93284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":277.62471875,"end":280.83096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":281.38784375,"end":282.26534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":282.95721875000004,"end":290.28096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":290.80409375,"end":293.50409375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":293.90909375,"end":297.50346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":297.65534375000004,"end":300.16971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":301.19909375000003,"end":305.02971875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":305.50221875,"end":305.95784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":306.36284375,"end":307.35846875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":308.03346875,"end":312.20159375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":312.85971875,"end":313.45034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":313.75409375000004,"end":314.95221875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":315.34034375000005,"end":318.41159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":319.35659375,"end":322.42784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":322.66409375,"end":323.49096875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":324.01409375000003,"end":324.40221875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":325.06034375,"end":329.31284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":331.03409375,"end":334.02096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":334.22346875,"end":335.06721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":335.37096875000003,"end":337.04159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":337.37909375000004,"end":339.08346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":339.45471875000004,"end":340.68659375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":340.97346875,"end":343.97721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":344.29784375,"end":346.99784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":347.43659375000004,"end":349.03971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":349.14096875,"end":351.03096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":351.03096875,"end":351.08159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":351.26721875000004,"end":352.58346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":352.88721875000005,"end":355.94159375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":356.59971875,"end":359.90721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":360.43034375,"end":362.70846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":363.58596875,"end":368.93534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":369.15471875000003,"end":371.12909375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":371.78721875,"end":373.57596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":375.66846875000005,"end":378.46971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":378.82409375000003,"end":379.76909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":379.93784375,"end":381.60846875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":382.53659375,"end":387.36284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":387.71721875000003,"end":388.96596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":389.15159375,"end":393.47159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":393.70784375000005,"end":395.49659375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":395.81721875000005,"end":401.89221875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":402.92159375,"end":410.76846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":411.61221875,"end":414.27846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":414.37971875000005,"end":414.59909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":415.54409375,"end":416.21909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":416.33721875000003,"end":417.88971875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":417.97409375,"end":421.82159375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":422.69909375000003,"end":423.18846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":423.50909375000003,"end":426.22596875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":426.93471875,"end":428.28471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":428.99346875000003,"end":432.09846875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":432.48659375000005,"end":434.39346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":434.76471875000004,"end":436.14846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":436.60409375,"end":438.42659375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":438.49409375000005,"end":442.18971875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":443.13471875000005,"end":443.99534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":444.26534375000006,"end":446.98221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":447.64034375000006,"end":447.96096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":448.97346875000005,"end":453.14159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":453.41159375,"end":455.58846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":456.02721875000003,"end":465.07221875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":465.51096875,"end":468.07596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":468.75096875,"end":470.40471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":470.79284375000003,"end":472.32846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":472.63221875000005,"end":473.34096875000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":474.06659375000004,"end":477.40784375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":477.81284375,"end":481.72784375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":482.31846875,"end":482.95971875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":483.76971875000004,"end":485.33909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":485.44034375,"end":491.39721875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":492.00471875000005,"end":495.14346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":495.36284375,"end":496.00409375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":496.47659375,"end":497.35409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":497.87721875000005,"end":500.44221875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":501.23534375,"end":502.21409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":503.26034375000006,"end":505.58909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":506.36534375,"end":507.24284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":507.81659375000004,"end":510.58409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":510.83721875000003,"end":511.54596875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":512.2547187499999,"end":512.6597187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":514.54971875,"end":516.67596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":517.3003437500001,"end":518.1609687499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":518.21159375,"end":523.25721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":524.1853437500001,"end":527.0203437499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":528.48846875,"end":530.7834687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":531.6440937500001,"end":534.76596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":535.20471875,"end":536.77409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":537.1453437499999,"end":538.5459687499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":538.73159375,"end":539.9465937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":539.99721875,"end":541.98846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":542.4609687500001,"end":544.6884687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":545.51534375,"end":546.9328437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":547.1184687500001,"end":548.55284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":548.9578437499999,"end":553.8178437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":554.1384687500001,"end":557.59784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":558.57659375,"end":561.66471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":561.90096875,"end":562.33971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":562.8797187499999,"end":563.8247187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":564.5503437500001,"end":565.19159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":565.5459687499999,"end":568.80284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":569.56221875,"end":570.62534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":570.94596875,"end":571.3003437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":571.4353437500001,"end":572.3972187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":572.61659375,"end":576.1940937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":576.68346875,"end":578.64096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":579.23159375,"end":586.38659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":586.57221875,"end":588.3272187499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":588.7153437500001,"end":591.8372187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":592.14096875,"end":592.6303437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":592.71471875,"end":593.45721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":593.9465937500001,"end":597.1359687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":597.76034375,"end":598.65471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":598.6884687500001,"end":599.8359687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":600.5109687500001,"end":602.82284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":603.16034375,"end":611.74971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":611.8172187499999,"end":611.83409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":611.86784375,"end":613.7240937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":613.8759687500001,"end":616.89659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":617.2678437500001,"end":619.2253437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":619.6472187500001,"end":622.4653437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":622.85346875,"end":625.9922187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":626.3803437500001,"end":627.0047187499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":627.2240937500001,"end":629.46846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":629.9578437499999,"end":630.3459687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":630.66659375,"end":632.64096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":633.67034375,"end":637.2647187499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":637.61909375,"end":638.9353437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":639.28971875,"end":640.7747187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":640.99409375,"end":644.4197187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":644.60534375,"end":647.01846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":647.1028437500001,"end":649.9040937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":650.3259687500001,"end":655.15221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":655.62471875,"end":658.1728437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":658.52721875,"end":660.9740937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":661.2947187500001,"end":661.9697187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":662.1215937500001,"end":665.0747187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":665.42909375,"end":666.96471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":667.28534375,"end":668.0278437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":668.0278437500001,"end":670.1709687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":670.64346875,"end":673.8159687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":674.3559687500001,"end":674.74409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":675.30096875,"end":678.5747187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":679.1315937500001,"end":685.1728437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":686.10096875,"end":688.78409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":689.2903437500001,"end":691.14659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":691.58534375,"end":694.99409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":696.0234687500001,"end":696.4284687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":697.23846875,"end":707.31284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":707.7178437500002,"end":714.40034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":714.6028437500001,"end":715.7165937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":716.03721875,"end":719.56409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":720.44159375,"end":722.24721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":722.63534375,"end":730.7690937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":731.3428437500002,"end":733.51971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":733.80659375,"end":735.20721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":735.4265937499999,"end":737.1140937499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":737.45159375,"end":738.95346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":739.52721875,"end":742.53096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":742.66596875,"end":744.2353437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":744.6740937500001,"end":746.3447187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":747.4584687500001,"end":747.69471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":748.3359687500001,"end":750.6984687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":751.18784375,"end":753.8372187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":754.34346875,"end":757.53284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":756.55409375,"end":760.8740937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":761.44784375,"end":766.00409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":766.00409375,"end":771.5390937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":766.2065937500001,"end":767.0165937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":771.9272187500001,"end":773.5303437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":773.7834687500001,"end":776.23034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":776.7703437499999,"end":781.61346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":782.18721875,"end":795.1472187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":795.7378437500001,"end":798.9778437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":799.2647187500002,"end":808.0903437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":808.30971875,"end":810.0647187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":810.53721875,"end":823.0078437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":823.32846875,"end":829.99409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":830.36534375,"end":831.8334687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":832.2722187500001,"end":842.9709687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":843.2240937500001,"end":845.9578437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":846.16034375,"end":860.3859687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":860.77409375,"end":864.43596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":864.7903437500001,"end":874.57784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":874.94909375,"end":880.2309687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":880.6865937500002,"end":885.49596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":886.22159375,"end":887.6728437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":888.5334687500001,"end":890.03534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":890.9465937500001,"end":893.78159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":894.77721875,"end":899.7722187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":900.1772187500001,"end":901.08846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":901.3078437500001,"end":906.9440937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":907.2140937500001,"end":908.29409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":908.7665937500001,"end":909.55971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":910.4540937500001,"end":913.32284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":913.8797187500002,"end":919.8703437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":919.97159375,"end":926.13096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":926.97471875,"end":927.85221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":928.0209687500001,"end":932.32409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":933.43784375,"end":936.0365937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":936.42471875,"end":937.3190937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":937.97721875,"end":939.78284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":940.0022187500001,"end":941.65596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":942.19596875,"end":943.4109687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":943.57971875,"end":943.7990937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":964.1672187500001,"end":967.89659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":970.4109687500002,"end":974.37659375}],"whisperx":[{"start":23.34,"end":29.488,"text":"主席、各位列席的官員、大家午安。麻煩主席請卓院長。麻煩請卓院長備選。蔡委員好。院長午安。"},{"start":42.263,"end":71.246,"text":"今天本席跟上一次一樣本席對於總質詢我還是把年輕朋友最關心的居住正義也就是我們要讓臺灣不斷上漲的房價怎麼讓年輕朋友可以有一個家所以社宅是一個本席從當副院長一直到回過頭來當委員我們一直在關注的一個問題我想讓一開始我先讓"},{"start":72.282,"end":89.768,"text":"委員長瞭解幾個數據。第一個我想這個叫臺股的總市值也就是過去8年的時間蔡政府對於臺灣經濟在方向上政策規劃上事實上是做對的一些方向所以你看我們從2016年開始"},{"start":92.909,"end":121.79,"text":"臺股的總市值從23.9兆幾乎成長3倍到今年的5月臺股的總市值已經達到67.3兆那換言之他創造的一定程度的這個財富的效果第二個部分我們來看一下這個我隨便抓一個年份當然新的有時候有些國家還沒有出來我們就用2021年來做一個比較院長你可以看得到臺灣人或者說"},{"start":122.931,"end":130.421,"text":"華人非常喜歡存款,所以你看台灣的國民儲蓄率接近50%,你看相對於美國17%,英國15%,加拿大23%,南韓才33%,所以國人錢很多。"},{"start":140.581,"end":159.573,"text":"第三個部分我想院長你也很清楚我們的政策裡面希望包括過去臺商的錢我們透過政策讓臺商的錢引流回臺投資臺灣所以這三個數據我們都可以看到一個現象臺灣人很多錢油資充斥"},{"start":163.052,"end":191.182,"text":"那油資充斥的結果臺灣人又喜歡買土地買房子所以換言之他把供給有限的這個房子不斷的因為油資的充沛所以大家不斷的這個供需沒有辦法平衡的情況底下我們的房價可以說節節高升現在我們談都不是在談蛋黃區了現在年輕朋友是談到蛋殼區啦蛋白大概也買不起了啦大家都在談蛋殼區"},{"start":193.12,"end":219.589,"text":"所以我們一直在做一件事情你看從這個105年民國105年開始我們一連串無論是房地合一稅的2.0或者109年通過所謂打草房的三法在109年開始央行不斷的祭出選擇性的信用管制其實這些政策都是希望透過政策來打草房"},{"start":220.745,"end":242.371,"text":"可是院長你也知道回顧從105年一路109年到今天我們打草房的效果是非常的有限也就是我們眼睜睜的政策不斷推出但房價不斷的上漲所以這個表示我們在政策面對所謂的房地產面對房子政策的時候我們出現了一些問題"},{"start":244.685,"end":268.711,"text":"本席的看法認為很簡單第一個我覺得房子有居住正義也就是有社會正義的一個面向這個政府應該來做應該來照顧年輕人照顧弱勢但是那個院長也不要忘記房地產他還有市場性也就是房子土地他作為在台灣自由市場情況底下他作為一種商品"},{"start":269.531,"end":282.127,"text":"所以他有他的自由市場的供需的這個這個狀態要去滿足所以在這個情況底下我想只透過這個政策來做是非常有限也因為如此"},{"start":282.981,"end":304.125,"text":"本席過去以來一直積極希望對於社會住宅的推動無論中央政府或者地方政府他都應該要卯足全力也就是我們常常喜歡談的叫做優先法案或者政府的施政重點那本席不厭其煩又花了大概5分鐘的時間來論述這一段因為這個賴總統上任卓內閣也上任"},{"start":312.895,"end":329.145,"text":"所以我想我很希望從卓院長的這個口中我聽到社會住宅的這個政策社會住宅推動是不是這個卓內閣重要的這個優先法案或者是優先要做的政策"},{"start":331.152,"end":355.523,"text":"報告委員當然是這不僅是我們現在全力在做的但是我們也發現在過去8年蔡前總統的任內建立了一套的機制目前這套機制正往正向的方向在發展那我們現在的責任就是讓他做得更快更多更好所以數字會呈現出來好謝謝院長我們就來具體進入這個政策的內容"},{"start":356.673,"end":380.627,"text":"蔡總統的目標8年他要蓋12萬戶,所以我們把它做了一個統計,幾乎我們從目前既有的新完工的、新建中的、絕標而待開工的以及目前規劃中的,這樣加一加剛好12萬6千多戶,所以換言之大概蔡總統說"},{"start":382.908,"end":410.523,"text":"8年要蓋12萬戶的目標這個算是有一個初步的成果那我看了一下這個賴總統所提啊他希望未來的8年當然他現在第一任是4年但規劃是用8年來做規劃如果8年他目標是25萬戶的社宅那我看了一下25萬戶的社宅換言之除了將蔡總統上位完工的都已經規劃好上位完工把它蓋完"},{"start":412.654,"end":426.992,"text":"賴總統還要再蓋13萬戶。 我也舉一個數據讓卓院長看一下。 全世界各國社會住宅的比例來看,"},{"start":429.022,"end":455.384,"text":"各位可以看得到這個荷蘭是34啦射載的比例是34%不要講到荷蘭啦我們光隔壁的日本或者美國這高度資本主義國家的美國新加坡或者其他國家台灣只有0.8所以總理長就算你25萬戶8年可以如期完成其實啊占比還是很低啦"},{"start":457.268,"end":482.689,"text":"這個0.8我再給你加1%好了因為你蓋13萬戶你也不過1.81.8我再給你四折五入算2%好了你還是距離人家還是非常的遙遠所以本席雖然我知道你有很多的難處因為內政部啊都會來跟我辦公室報告但是我認為這個都是什麼這個都是因為站在內政部的立場也就是"},{"start":484.02,"end":504.804,"text":"這個部長也站在旁邊如果以內政部之力要來完成13萬戶他們就是認為有進步了但是以本席的角度13萬戶那個叫勉強不能叫及格那叫勉強不及格本席認為你應該就目標設定25萬戶不是設定蔡總統的12萬戶加你的13萬戶應該這個"},{"start":515.228,"end":530.554,"text":"這個賴政府就應該直接25萬戶,這個比例才可以勉強追得上,才可以勉強追得上。所以這個涉宰的比例過低,我們如果要來推動除了"},{"start":532.087,"end":557.51,"text":"這個大家都知道以前陳總統的時代中部科學園區化不可能為可能那時候大家說一個科學園區要做得好沒有3、5年以上是不可能的結果當時陳前總統的時代將事用命大家把中部科學園區當成一個很重要的目標所以你看兩年的時間中部科學園區就好了"},{"start":558.629,"end":563.715,"text":"所以本席只認為這個叫勢在人為如果今天賴政府"},{"start":564.568,"end":593.342,"text":"左內閣認為年輕人居住正義的問題如果設宅是解決目前房價高漲或者年輕人要住得起房子很重要的解方之一我認為就應該要請全力來做這個事情而不是這件事情只請那個劉世芳部長的內政部甚至下面的住都中心去想辦法找地啊蓋房子啊這個不會通啦"},{"start":594.002,"end":595.484,"text":"所以本席會利用這個總質詢很寶貴的時間來請這個卓院長"},{"start":600.503,"end":605.686,"text":"兩點跟委員報告第一點我們的社會住宅政策除了直接興建之外委員也知道我們還有包租貸款跟租金補貼另外這個分別有25萬戶跟50萬戶"},{"start":630.741,"end":646.518,"text":"委員所關心的直接興建我們秉持的態度是我們直接很誠實的看到問題所以務實的提出這樣的數據這是一個方法再來就是我們踏實的要在未來的8年內興建包括前面12萬戶之外的13萬戶這是從誠實務實踏實的角度來出發"},{"start":650.482,"end":653.044,"text":"本席還是覺得就是說 左院長的回答我不是叫做不滿意"},{"start":674.414,"end":695.109,"text":"就是賴總統要連任他一定要有幾個事情是讓所有國人同胞覺得賴總統在這幾項事情做得有夠好的。賴總統很簡單嘛,他把台灣的能見度,把整個台灣的經濟等等他有幾個很重要的事情是大家記得很清楚的。"},{"start":697.301,"end":719.684,"text":"我認為啦,把社會住宅這件事情請全力把它做好。 是賴總統未來四年他要連任之後,年輕朋友會記得最清楚。 蔡總統雖然12萬戶一起起頭啊,但是你要知道年輕朋友不買單啊。 12萬戶在賴蔡總統的這個總統或者選舉過程裡面,年輕朋友是沒有跟我們站在一起的。"},{"start":720.472,"end":745.927,"text":"所以本席只是建議啦我說我對你的回答不是滿意的原因就是說本席只是建議就你的回答是你把它當一件事但你沒有把它當最重要的事情所以本席還是認為說這件事情你們去思考一下有哪幾件事情是卓院長你在任內你覺得我要請全力把它做好的事情我覺得挑一兩樣出來做這個一兩樣做下去是對"},{"start":748.613,"end":760.367,"text":"臺灣的鄉親臺灣的民眾非常有感的所以本席只是建議你或許你有其他的選項本席因為沒有問到所以你可能我不知道即使我們有更多的選項即使有更多的選項"},{"start":761.619,"end":781.408,"text":"社會住宅、社會居住正義這一件事永遠是我們很重要的一個優先的事項。本席就隨便建議啦,你聽一聽啦,譬如說公私協力啦,也就是什麼叫做請權力,內政部一定沒有這樣的權力,譬如說你在所有這些大型的企業,我們的科學園區、工業區的附近,"},{"start":782.228,"end":782.508,"text":"﹚蔡其昌"},{"start":808.428,"end":808.848,"text":"所以這個需求很大。"},{"start":832.324,"end":860.171,"text":"那這個東西要怎麼去蓋這個跟社宅可不可以結合比如說你的容積可以蓋戶數比原來的消防員需求更高你就應該把它蓋滿嘛所以我的意思要跟院長提醒是行政院擁有所有各部會如果各部會把社宅當成一件事情那就不是內政部的事情那是行政院的事情也就是本席所提到這個叫請行政院的力氣來做事"},{"start":860.871,"end":889.819,"text":"所以我剛剛所提到跟你的意見不大一樣是我知道你會按部就班把社宅當成一件重要的事情但我要求的不是當成一件重要的事情我要求的是行政院應該請全力讓年輕人這些年來面對高房價面對住不起房子的問題我認為這個居住正義的事情我們應該請全力來把它解決時間剩下最後一分鐘我也從此提醒"},{"start":891.001,"end":909.311,"text":"我再舉一個表格你看齁這個中遷率啊我舉一個中遷率你看齁這個臺中地區、桃園地區、臺北地區啊你可以看得到那個中遷率啊有的都只有低到個位數平均也大概都是有十幾%、二十%左右所以表示"},{"start":910.492,"end":935.331,"text":"大家對社會住宅的需求是很高的需求是很高哪怕你還有這個包租代管啊租金補貼我都不反對啦但基本上還是沒有辦法因為你看這個中簽率就知道大家對社宅的需求還是存在另外呢我們在媒體上也看到所謂什麼叫做開名車住社宅或者呢最近大家在檢討的這個"},{"start":938.33,"end":942.317,"text":"購屋的這個所謂第一例的這些貸款等等因為時間的關係"},{"start":964.693,"end":971.648,"text":"謝謝蔡其昌委員的質詢,也謝謝卓院長的背景。接下來我們請登記第12號羅廷偉委員質詢。"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}