{"error":false,"id":["154202"],"data":{"IVOD_ID":154202,"IVOD_URL":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154202","日期":"2024-06-26","會議資料":{"會議代碼":"委員會-11-1-20-19","會議代碼:str":"第11屆第1會期財政委員會第19次全體委員會議","屆":11,"會期":1,"會次":19,"臨時會會次":null,"種類":"委員會","委員會代碼":[20],"委員會代碼:str":["財政委員會"],"標題":"第11屆第1會期財政委員會第19次全體委員會議"},"影片種類":"Clip","開始時間":"2024-06-26T09:27:32+08:00","結束時間":"2024-06-26T09:38:31+08:00","影片長度":"00:10:59","支援功能":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/0ea7781078621bd1c8c7d8739364381808df44dd9bf560a28f090ddb9b7d6d6956f6ed70b2e814a85ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"吳秉叡","委員發言時間":"09:27:32 - 09:38:31","會議時間":"2024-06-26T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期財政委員會第19次全體委員會議（事由：審查行政院函請審議、本院委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等17人、委員顏寬恒等20人分別擬具「所得稅法部分條文修正草案」等3案。\n【6月26日及27日二天一次會】）","gazette":{"lineno":200,"blocks":[["吳委員秉叡：（9時27分）主席，麻煩請財政部莊部長。"],["主席：請莊部長。"],["莊部長翠雲：委員好。"],["吳委員秉叡：部長早。延續剛剛那個話題，中華民國臺灣的不動產是採登記主義、公示公信原則。如果你要用青安貸款，一定是自己、配偶或是子女40歲以下然後沒有房子，才可以適用青安貸款。譬如這個年輕人35歲，他的爸爸媽媽有沒有房子，這是另外一件事；這個年輕人本身跟他的配偶以及他的子女不能夠有房子，這樣可以適用青安。"],["莊部長翠雲：對，他的未成年子女……"],["吳委員秉叡：青安是購買房屋的房屋貸款，所以購買房屋的登記人符合這個條件才能夠借款給他。基本上，不存在年輕人符合青安，買房子登記在爸爸、媽媽名下的狀況，不可以啦！因為這樣的話就不符合青安的規定。"],["莊部長翠雲：對，青安貸款就是他本人還有配偶及未成年子女名下都沒有房子，他才能夠適用青安貸款。"],["吳委員秉叡：沒有錯，我們是先釐清前提。"],["莊部長翠雲：對。"],["吳委員秉叡：現在會發生爭議的是同財共居。假設有一個年輕人22歲，他本身沒有要買房子，但是他爸爸媽媽想為他買房子，所以就用青安幫他買一戶，那個年輕人符合青安的條件，但是買來以後實質的控制權在爸爸媽媽名下，爸爸媽媽把這個房子拿去租給別人，因為這個年輕人有可能22歲，還住在原來自己爸爸媽媽的房子裡面，跟爸爸媽媽一起住，所以爸爸媽媽用他的名義，借用青安貸款去買房子，當然是買這個年輕人的名字，但是他把它租給別人。"],["莊部長翠雲：這樣就不符合青安貸款，因為有出租。"],["吳委員秉叡：現在有在講，如果查到之後，青安貸款的利息補貼要收回。"],["莊部長翠雲：是。"],["吳委員秉叡：所以想要請你們瞭解像這樣的案例是不是很多。"],["莊部長翠雲：這個部分公股行庫已經在做清理了，對於高風險的案件，我們會逐步去瞭解，像這種情況其實他有出租，就不符合青安貸款，因為青安貸款是希望年輕人買了以後自住使用。"],["吳委員秉叡：是啦，但是這個中間的確會存在爭議啦！我舉一個例子，我二十二歲大學畢業買房子本來準備要自住，假設在新莊我買了一戶房子，結果後來在新竹台積電找到工作，那我不可能住新莊然後到台積電上班，所以我可能跑到新竹市或新竹縣去租一戶房子，但是我原來用青安貸款買了一戶房子怎麼辦呢？空在那邊嗎？這個的確會有爭議，你就這個案例來想。如果說非要自己住不可，那你這個配套要更完整、要有更多其他的想法。我們現在因為房價高漲，政府宣示要打炒房，所以就有很多人，有道理也好，沒道理也好，都歸咎到房地產上面來。","而且在我來看，我也替年輕人覺得很惋惜，現在因為青安貸款補助有限，所以大臺北地區的房子就越蓋越小間了，現在都蓋那種十幾坪的，扣掉公設，房子就跟套房一樣，其實那個居住的空間真的已經比上一代的爸爸媽媽、更上一代的阿公阿嬤的空間小很多了，有時候覺得這個坪數的房子怎麼住人啊？將來年輕人也會想要成家，如果娶了太太，生了一個或兩個小寶貝，那一間房子真的是不夠住，當然這是另外的話。","但是就是因為有這個補貼，再加上央行那個豪宅的政策、金額多少以上的房子貸款成數下降等等，還要為了銷售的方便，所以建設公司房子越蓋越小間，每一間的坪數都很小，某一個角度也是為了配合政府的政策，為了配合青安，因為青安能夠補貼的金額就是這樣，除了一部分自備款之外，其他的貸款要適用青安，所以房子的總價就設計成一千出頭萬，在大臺北地區，臺北市當然不太可能，新北市像我那個地方，房子大概就是十幾、二十坪。"],["莊部長翠雲：確實，房地產的價格如果高的話，在年輕人現在的收入可以負擔的情況下，他就會買小坪數的房子，大概是這樣的情況。"],["吳委員秉叡：其實這裡面有很多的問題，現在年輕人就算要用青安貸款買房子，通常前面的自備款，家長如果有能力也會給予幫忙。"],["莊部長翠雲：沒有錯，家長多少會給，有可能的話。"],["吳委員秉叡：但是這個就會引發出世代的……網友講得最難聽的就是會投胎的好命啊！就爸爸媽媽可以給的幫忙很大，所以他很年輕就能買房子，如果本身家境沒有那麼好的，他要買房子就變得比較困難，在比較的心理之下，就會變成大家心理的不平衡，也是會引發社會問題。"],["莊部長翠雲：所以有關房屋或者住宅的部分，政府其實是多管齊下，比如興建社會住宅或者採取包租代管，還有公益出租人的出租方式，那都是用租的方式，當然用買的方式，……"],["吳委員秉叡：你有沒有想過……"],["莊部長翠雲：政府就幫他一把，在付息的過程中給予幫助。"],["吳委員秉叡：部長，你有沒有想過臺灣跟日本比起來，一樣是東亞國家的年輕人，日本人租屋比例之高，臺灣人自有住宅、要買房子的比例這麼高，你有沒有覺得這兩者中間的差異是什麼？"],["莊部長翠雲：可能我們一直有「有土斯有財」這樣的一個觀念吧。"],["吳委員秉叡：那你有沒有統計過臺灣自有住宅的比例高達多少？"],["莊部長翠雲：蠻高的，數字我不太記得，但是……"],["吳委員秉叡：70%以上快要80%。"],["莊部長翠雲：差不多有這樣一個數字，因為大家覺得有自有住宅可能比較好。"],["吳委員秉叡：所以要講清楚喔！這個立場要講清楚，是打炒房，不是打房喔！因為你如果打房，將近80%的國人有自有住宅。"],["莊部長翠雲：所以其實政府的政策是在打炒房，就是不能做投機的行為，並不是在打房，因為房屋市場是健康依序的發展，不是要去打垮它。"],["吳委員秉叡：我講一個開玩笑的，以下這個有點小開玩笑，但是也是事實，全世界打房最成功的政權是哪裡，你知道嗎？中國，中國共產黨在中國打房，結果房價腰斬一半還沒人要。所以經濟的發展，從健康的角度來看，本來就會伴隨著一點點的物價膨脹，我以前在這裡說過，每年的CPI如果是2%，是世界總體經濟學家認為最好的，超過3%不要，因為那是通貨膨脹，低於1%也不要，因為會通貨緊縮，現在中國就面臨通貨緊縮的問題，通貨緊縮比通貨膨脹更可怕，為什麼？因為通貨膨脹是我現在不趕快去消費，明天、後天、明年、後年物價越來越高，我怕我買不起，現在臺灣有一點點這樣的預期心理。可是通貨緊縮更可怕，就是我要忍住不消費，因為我越晚消費越便宜，所以整個消費會急速地down下來，down下來之後，更惡性循環，我今天買一百塊的，下個禮拜會變成九十九塊，下個月會變成九十八塊，到了年底只剩九十五塊，明年剩九十塊，那我是不是就儘量忍？我越晚消費就賺越多，所以通貨緊縮會帶來整個經濟的窒息，中國現在就是這樣的狀況。你有沒有看到他們的稅很可怕，中國的稅，中央、地方今年度到5月減了5.91%，換算成人民幣就少收了二點多兆的稅金。當然中國的經濟量體非常的大，但是你想想看，這樣前面五個月就減收這樣，算起來今年整個有可能減掉將近十兆的稅金，那是非常非常驚人的數字，如果這個問題不趕快解決，過兩年它的經濟真的可能會崩潰。再加上它現在面臨的國際上面的制裁壓力，美國、歐盟對於它支持俄羅斯去侵略烏克蘭，都要對它動手，所以坦白講，我很看不好，它要渡過硬著陸都很有問題。所以我的意思是處理這些事情都是要很小心的，要一環一環，而且觀念要正確。"],["莊部長翠雲：是。"],["吳委員秉叡：有人看到CPI說怎麼會物價上漲，就隨便扣帽子說什麼物價在漲然後工資都不漲，明明工資就有漲，他看不見，是工資漲的速度有的時候超過通貨膨脹，有的時候不如通貨膨脹一點點，這幾年也才發生過一次。所以要有正確的觀念，而不要為了要達到什麼樣的結論，就去引用片面的資料、片面的數字，這樣我認為都是不好的，好不好？"],["莊部長翠雲：是，謝謝委員。"],["吳委員秉叡：大家加油！謝謝。"],["莊部長翠雲：謝謝委員指教。"],["主席：謝謝吳秉叡委員的質詢。","接著請賴士葆委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":252,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-20-19","speakers":["郭國文","顏寬恒","林德福","吳秉叡","賴士葆","賴惠員","李彥秀","羅明才","黃珊珊","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","李坤城","鄭天財Sra 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等17人、委員顏寬恒等20人分別擬具「所得稅\n法部分條文修正草案」等3案","agenda_id":"1136501_00004"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":2.8997187500000003,"end":4.73909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":4.992218750000001,"end":5.76846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":11.910968750000002,"end":13.429718750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":14.189093750000001,"end":15.99471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":16.66971875,"end":17.32784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":17.88471875,"end":20.247218750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":20.38221875,"end":21.090968750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":21.58034375,"end":24.398468750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":24.63471875,"end":25.34346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":25.96784375,"end":28.043468750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":28.735343750000002,"end":29.781593750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":30.844718750000002,"end":32.90346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":33.13971875,"end":34.32096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":35.04659375,"end":36.49784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":37.35846875,"end":38.235968750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":38.860343750000006,"end":40.362218750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":41.087843750000005,"end":49.727843750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":50.41971875,"end":54.73971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":55.094093750000006,"end":56.477843750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":57.15284375,"end":62.62034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":63.04221875,"end":63.80159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":63.97034375000001,"end":64.03784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":64.07159375,"end":66.28221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":66.50159375,"end":67.98659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":68.39159375,"end":70.43346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":71.29409375,"end":71.86784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":72.81284375,"end":73.62284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":73.97721875,"end":75.12471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":75.79971875000001,"end":82.65096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":83.25846875,"end":93.09659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":83.52846875,"end":83.91659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":89.13096875000001,"end":89.99159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":90.22784375,"end":93.19784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":94.41284375000001,"end":99.12096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":99.61034375000001,"end":108.94221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":109.85346875,"end":111.22034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":111.45659375000001,"end":133.05659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":133.79909375,"end":135.52034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":136.02659375000002,"end":137.78159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":138.33846875,"end":141.56159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":140.05971875,"end":150.03284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":147.65346875,"end":148.22721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":150.03284375,"end":151.38284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":151.38284375,"end":151.48409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":151.48409375,"end":165.97971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":165.97971875000002,"end":170.78909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":171.48096875000002,"end":179.78346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":179.93534375000002,"end":182.68596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":183.64784375000002,"end":192.16971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":192.27096875,"end":195.67971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":197.14784375000002,"end":200.21909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":200.86034375000003,"end":201.51846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":202.22721875000002,"end":203.89784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":204.92721875,"end":206.46284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":206.81721875000002,"end":207.30659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":207.91409375,"end":209.04471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":209.51721875,"end":210.54659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":211.13721875000002,"end":212.65596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":212.97659375,"end":216.25034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":216.94221875000002,"end":218.88284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":219.37221875,"end":223.92846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":224.97471875000002,"end":226.47659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":227.01659375000003,"end":228.28221875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":228.85596875000002,"end":230.99909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":232.34909375,"end":235.72409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":236.60159375,"end":239.52096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":240.34784375,"end":243.23346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":244.46534375000002,"end":259.55159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":260.12534375,"end":264.64784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":265.10346875,"end":266.09909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":266.67284375,"end":269.55846875000003},{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中國中國共產黨把他的房子在中國打房折價腰斬一半都還沒人要所以"},{"start":473.203,"end":494.521,"text":"經濟的發展從健康的角度來看它本來就會伴隨著一點點的物價膨脹我以前在這個地方說過每年的CPI如果是2%是現在世界總體經濟學家認為最好的超過3是不要因為那是通貨膨脹低於1也不要因為會通貨緊縮"},{"start":496.687,"end":521.11,"text":"那中國現在就面臨通貨緊縮的問題通貨緊縮比通貨膨脹更可怕為什麼因為通貨膨脹是我現在不趕快去消費明天、後天、明年、後年物價越來越高我怕我買不起現在台灣有一點點這樣的預期心理可是通貨緊縮更可怕是我就要忍住不消費因為我越晚消費越便宜"},{"start":522.202,"end":527.786,"text":"所以整個消費會急速的盪下來盪下來之後還更惡性循環我今天買100塊的下個禮拜會變成99塊下個月會變成98塊到了年底剩95塊明年剩90塊那我是不是就盡量忍我越晚消費就賺越多所以偷貨緊縮會帶來整個經濟的窒息量"},{"start":546.995,"end":573.86,"text":"中國現在是這樣的狀況 你有沒有看到這個稅很可怕喔中國的稅中央地方今年度到現在5月減了5.91%换算成人民幣它是少收了2點多兆的這個稅金當然中國的經濟量體非常的大但是你想想看這樣子前面5個月就減收這樣給它算過 它有可能今年會"},{"start":575.253,"end":596.793,"text":"整個撿起來有可能撿到將近10兆的稅金喔那是非常非常驚人的數字那如果這個不趕快解決,過兩年他的經濟真的可能會崩潰啊那在這樣他現在面臨的國際上面的這些制裁的壓力在美國對於他又要支持俄羅斯去侵略烏克蘭歐盟、美國都對他要動手"},{"start":598.365,"end":623.665,"text":"所以坦白講我很看不好啦他如果度過這個硬著陸都很有問題啊所以我的意思說處理這些事情都是要很小心的要一環一環而且觀念要正確有人看到CBI說怎麼會物價上漲然後就隨便扣帽子說怎麼物價都漲然後工資都不漲明明工資就有漲他看不見"},{"start":625.308,"end":626.708,"text":"謝謝吳秉叡委員的諮詢 接著我們請賴世保委員諮詢"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}