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09:39:18","會議時間":"2024-06-26T09:10:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境、外交及國防委員會第1次聯席會議（事由：審查勞動部函送「駐印度台北經濟文化中心與印度台北協會促進僱用印度勞工瞭解備忘錄」之中、英及印地文文本影本案。\n【6月26日及27日二天一次會】）","gazette":{"lineno":148,"blocks":[["陳委員菁徽：（9時30分）主席、各位官員早，我想請何部長，謝謝。"],["主席：好，請部長。"],["何部長佩珊：委員好。"],["陳委員菁徽：你好。部長，去年非典型工作者破了80萬人，所謂的臨時性或人力派遣的工作者占了快60萬人，所以我們這樣非典型的勞工不斷地攀升，除了固定的法令宣導，還有勞檢，勞動部有想要增加什麼措施嗎？"],["何部長佩珊：你是指外送員的權益嗎？"],["陳委員菁徽：就是各種，對。"],["何部長佩珊：這個部分其實我們正在對外送平台的這個……我們有一個勞務承攬參考原則。"],["陳委員菁徽：有、有、有。"],["何部長佩珊：就是政府機關（構）運用勞務承攬參考原則。"],["陳委員菁徽：是，你們發布一個政府機關勞動承攬參考原則就是說，我們的中央主管機關如果利用這些非典型人力來做事，就要定期來稽查人力的廠商要守法，所以勞動部發布這件事不久以後，我們衛環委員會多位委員，包括我就有提案，要求主管的勞動部還有工程會、人事總處等等，政府內不分大小的單位都要有效地宣導，請問目前做的進度如何？"],["何部長佩珊：我們規劃7月下旬辦研習營，然後有3個部會會共同協助採購機關關於勞務採購契約依承攬參考原則，明定各項勞動權益；還有8月也會針對中央機關辦理法制宣導活動。"],["陳委員菁徽：是。"],["何部長佩珊：也是3個部會一起。"],["陳委員菁徽：所以我們會從明年度的總預算看得出來政府要帶頭來做改善，並且你可以承諾說一半以上的機關在明年就可以做到內部至少一次的不定期稽核嗎？"],["何部長佩珊：針對各部會嗎？"],["陳委員菁徽：是，一半以上。"],["何部長佩珊：我們儘量來做好嗎？"],["陳委員菁徽：好，我希望可以看到勞動部帶頭去重視，我們愈來愈增加非典型勞工們的權益。"],["何部長佩珊：謝謝委員支持。"],["陳委員菁徽：再來，因為您近期內也有說，要找經濟部合作，會利用審查國內的上市、上櫃投資案件，要求應先派遣，瞭解派遣跟勞務承攬的廠商有沒有守法，作為採購的評估。還說跟經濟部也要在履約期間，針對派遣員工的勞動條件合法與否來調查、稽查，更要在公司的年報還有永續報告書中揭露。因為你有發布這樣的新聞，所以許多的公司也很想知道這個細節，因為會影響他們上市、上櫃的條件，所以您會不會去修到經濟部主管的公司法？"],["何部長佩珊：不可能耶！委員抱歉，因為公司法是經濟部主管，發動方一定要是經濟部，我們只能儘……"],["陳委員菁徽：所以您還是維持在宣導嗎？"],["何部長佩珊：我只能儘量地呼籲。"],["陳委員菁徽：呼籲？"],["何部長佩珊：對，希望企業能夠善盡社會責任這樣子。"],["陳委員菁徽：所以其實不會有白紙黑字的管理依據出來？"],["何部長佩珊：事實上，因為針對上市櫃企業也非我能夠以行政命令去……"],["陳委員菁徽：所以就是宣導經濟部？"],["何部長佩珊：是，我們只能儘量來呼籲。"],["陳委員菁徽：主導永續發展的主要權責是金管會。"],["何部長佩珊：是。"],["陳委員菁徽：金管會去年也開始做了上市櫃公司永續發展行動方案，所以會去推出修正版本的上市櫃公司永續發展行動方案2.0。你這樣落實把派遣員工、非典型員工的勞動條件合法依據的調查、稽查結果，您會希望跟經濟部還有金管會溝通，如何落實在他們的永續報告書中嗎？"],["何部長佩珊：我們現在正在努力，希望ESG納入勞權指標，這個我們確實也希望能夠得到金管會及經濟部的支持。"],["陳委員菁徽：所以您規劃的時間點大約是？"],["何部長佩珊：我們有和他們展開平臺會議，希望大家能夠趕快來協商。"],["陳委員菁徽：好，我們也會再持續關心這樣子的進度。"],["何部長佩珊：謝謝委員。"],["陳委員菁徽：勞動部5月2日有召開諮詢會，剛剛有跟很多位委員講，共識是印度移工人力優先在製造業小規模試辦，可是我們都知道，製造業的工作性質多屬於做多少算多少的承攬性質，所以也想要請教部長，開放製造業的印度移工有沒有可能再製造更多我國非典型就業人口呢？"],["何部長佩珊：應該不至於，因為這個和那個應該是兩件事情。"],["陳委員菁徽：所以您覺得印度移工小規模是不會排擠到本國人的。"],["何部長佩珊：應該不至於，對，應該不會的，只是補充，我要跟委員報告，我們會推動臺印MOU引進印度移工是希望為臺灣的勞動力增加來源，因為我們現在勞動力缺乏，大家都喊缺工，主要是少子化的問題，我們需要增加新的勞動力，而且是優質的新的勞動力。"],["陳委員菁徽：好。這個剛剛很多委員也有關心，不過都還沒有很仔細地詢問到你，你的備忘錄內容第8條明文講到雙軌制……"],["何部長佩珊：是。"],["陳委員菁徽：雙邊同意推動「直接聘僱計畫」，你們是說在雙方的法律允許下，擴大「直接聘僱計畫」，還會設立單一窗口及選工機制，第二行還有寫到，優先適用「續聘計畫」，所以您是要真的擴大直聘，還是只是應用在移工3年期滿的續聘上？你這個雙軌的直聘是想要第一階段就做，還是要續聘的時候才要做？"],["何部長佩珊：說真的，實務上，現在只能先從續聘計畫做，事實上，跟委員報告，直聘制度是很困難的，不容易！因為要考慮印度方本身沒有這樣的制度，我們推動臺印MOU是為了要解決缺工，不是為了要推動直聘，而來做臺印MOU，這個因果關係要釐清，我希望大家……"],["陳委員菁徽：我懂。"],["何部長佩珊：當然移工團體以及社會上有直聘的呼籲，這個我們都尊重，我們也願意來努力，可是要考量我們的國家有沒有能力推動像韓國這樣的直聘。"],["陳委員菁徽：我知道，但是這個是寫在您的MOU上……"],["何部長佩珊：是、是、是。"],["陳委員菁徽：所以我們還是會問你……"],["何部長佩珊：我們當然會努力。"],["陳委員菁徽：上面有寫擴大直聘，因此其實你擴大直聘的意思是續聘的時候會擴大直聘。"],["何部長佩珊：先擴大續聘來做可能會比較容易，而且跟委員報告，我們連國內自己的直聘都還在精進當中。"],["陳委員菁徽：有、有、有，這邊就有提到，其實我們國內直聘招募的數據都不到1成……"],["何部長佩珊：是啊！"],["陳委員菁徽：所以大部分都還是由仲介來處理……"],["何部長佩珊：是。"],["陳委員菁徽：經過了這麼多年，我們也想知道，你要如何確保優質的仲介來進行試辦，這個KPI機制，你要怎麼把關呢？"],["何部長佩珊：優質的仲介，倒是我們會透過評選機制，其實我們臺灣的仲介產業是非常競爭，而且他們的競爭力也很強，我們憑良心講，其實好的、優質的仲介在我們勞動部都是有列檔案的，這都是可以透過評選來……"],["陳委員菁徽：好，你們這個諮詢會有提到，也可能有印度社群私人引薦這個亂象，所以本席也在這邊提醒你，可能未來這個管理會需要注意。"],["何部長佩珊：是、是、是，對。"],["陳委員菁徽：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝。接下來請廖偉翔委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":114,"meet_id":"聯席會議-11-1-26,35-1","speakers":["王育敏","林月琴","蘇清泉","陳昭姿","陳菁徽","廖偉翔","王正旭","邱鎮軍","羅美玲","洪申翰","黃秀芳","林楚茵","王定宇","陳冠廷","羅廷瑋","涂權吉","沈伯洋","陳培瑜","黃珊珊","林淑芬","陳瑩","劉建國","林憶君","楊曜","盧縣一","楊瓊瓔"],"page_start":49,"meetingDate":["2024-06-26"],"gazette_id":"1136701","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1136701_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境、外交及國防委員會第1次聯席會議紀錄","content":"審查勞動部函送「駐印度台北經濟文化中心與印度台北協會促進僱用印度勞工瞭解備忘錄」之\n中、英及印地文文本影本案","agenda_id":"1136701_00002"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":0.38534375,"end":3.4397187500000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":4.16534375,"end":4.87409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":5.8697187500000005,"end":6.342218750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":7.25346875,"end":7.658468750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10.746593750000002,"end":11.084093750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":11.640968750000003,"end":12.72096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":12.974093750000002,"end":17.024093750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":17.37846875,"end":32.970968750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":32.970968750000004,"end":33.072218750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":33.072218750000005,"end":33.15659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":33.57846875,"end":33.595343750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":33.595343750000005,"end":38.52284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":37.27409375,"end":38.252843750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":39.602843750000005,"end":39.83909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":40.53096875,"end":53.03534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":48.69846875,"end":49.947218750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":53.03534375,"end":86.61659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":65.52284375,"end":65.99534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":87.07221875,"end":91.76346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":90.54846875000001,"end":90.93659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":92.01659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各位官員早 我想請何部長 謝謝好 請部長 委員好 謝謝"},{"start":12.283,"end":35.675,"text":"市長,去年非典型工作者破了80萬人。所謂的臨時性或人力派遣的工作者佔了快60人。所以我們這樣子非典型的勞工不斷攀升,除了固定的法令宣導還有勞檢,勞動部有想要增加什麼措施嗎?您是指外送員這樣子的權益嗎?"},{"start":40.558,"end":46.042,"text":"政府機關應用勞務承攬參考原則是,你們發布一個政府機關勞動承攬參考原則就是說我們的中央主管機關如果利用這些非典型人力來做事就要定期來稽查人力的廠商要守法所以呢勞動部發動這個"},{"start":68.358,"end":94.811,"text":"發布這件事不久以後其實我們這個委員會多位委員包括我就有提案要求說主管的勞動部還有工程會人事總處等等政府內不分大小的單位都要有效的宣導請問目前做的進度如何了那麼我們規劃7月下旬辦研習營然後有三個部會會共同協助採購機關關於勞務採購"},{"start":98.313,"end":123.367,"text":"議案一層欄參考原則明定各項勞動權益還有8月也會針對中央機關辦理這一個法制宣導活動那也是三個部會一起所以我們會從明年度的總預算看得出來政府要帶頭來做改善並且你可以承諾說一半以上的機關在明年就可以做到內部至少一次的不定期集合嗎"},{"start":124.508,"end":124.568,"text":"主席"},{"start":141.397,"end":157.136,"text":"再來因為您近期內也有說要找經濟部合作會利用審查國內的上市上櫃投資案件要求應先派遣瞭解派遣跟勞務承攬的廠商有沒有手法作為採購的評估還說跟經濟部也要來"},{"start":161.201,"end":161.221,"text":"議員﹚陳菁"},{"start":185.617,"end":208.153,"text":"不可能欸因為委員抱歉公司法是經濟部主管發動方一定要是經濟部我們只能進所以您還是維持在宣導嗎我只能盡量的呼籲對然後希望那個企業能夠善盡社會責任這樣子對所以其實不會有白紙黑字的管理依據出來事實上"},{"start":209.554,"end":234.577,"text":"因為針對上市櫃企業也非我能夠行政命令去對它做是我們只能盡量來呼籲主導永續發展的主要權責是金管會金管會去年也開始做了上市櫃公司永續發展行動方案所以會去推出一個修正版本的上市櫃公司永續發展行動方案2.0所以你這樣子落實吧"},{"start":235.538,"end":259.046,"text":"派遣員工、非典型員工的勞動條件合法依據的調查、稽查結果您會希望跟經濟部還有金管會溝通如何的落實在他們的永續報告書中嗎?我們現在正在努力希望ESG納入勞權指標這個我們確實也希望能夠得到金管會跟經濟部的支持所以您規劃的時間點大約是?"},{"start":261.687,"end":263.227,"text":"我勞動部5月2日有召開諮詢會說共識印度移工人力優先剛有提到了跟很多位委員講是製造業的小規模事辦"},{"start":282.352,"end":297.803,"text":"可是我們都知道製造業的工作性質多屬於做多少算多少的承攬性質所以開放製造業的印度移工也想要請教部長有沒有可能再製造更多我國非典型就業的人口呢?"},{"start":300.379,"end":320.076,"text":"應該不至於,因為我們的非典就業人口跟我們年輕勞工目前的對,這個跟這個應該是兩件事情所以您覺得印度移工小規模是不會排擠到本國人的應該不至於,對應該不會的"},{"start":321.457,"end":344.851,"text":"只是補充,我要跟委員報告,我們會希望推動臺印MOU引進印度移工是希望為臺灣的勞動力增加來源而且我們現在勞動力缺乏嘛,大家都喊缺工嘛,那麼主要是少子化的問題,我們需要增加新的勞動力而且是優質的新的勞動力這樣子"},{"start":346.612,"end":364.467,"text":"這個剛剛很多委員也有關心不過都還沒有很仔細的詢問到您您的備忘錄內容呢第8條明文講到說雙軌制嘛雙邊同意推動直接聘僱計畫而且其實你們是說在雙方的法律允許下擴大直接聘僱計畫還會設立單一窗口的"},{"start":367.169,"end":380.395,"text":"選工機制而且第二行還有寫到說優先的適用續聘計畫所以您是要真的擴大職聘還是只是應用在移工三年期滿的續聘上"},{"start":381.516,"end":398.952,"text":"你的這個雙軌的執聘是想要第一階段就做還是你要續聘的時候才要做?這個意思是說真的實務上現在只能先從續聘計畫先做了那因為事實上跟委員報告執聘制度是很困難的"},{"start":399.833,"end":399.873,"text":"﹚陳菁徽"},{"start":427.961,"end":451.766,"text":"⋯⋯⋯"},{"start":452.046,"end":452.086,"text":"陳菁徽"},{"start":481.866,"end":487.99,"text":"您的這個諮詢會有提到說印度的私人引薦的社群也很有可能有這個亂象所以本席也在這邊提醒您可能未來這個管理會需要是是是謝謝好謝謝"},{"start":510.1,"end":511.712,"text":"接下來我們請廖偉祥"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}