{"error":false,"id":["154215"],"data":{"IVOD_ID":154215,"IVOD_URL":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154215","日期":"2024-06-26","會議資料":{"會議代碼":"委員會-11-1-23-17","會議代碼:str":"第11屆第1會期交通委員會第17次全體委員會議","屆":11,"會期":1,"會次":17,"臨時會會次":null,"種類":"委員會","委員會代碼":[23],"委員會代碼:str":["交通委員會"],"標題":"第11屆第1會期交通委員會第17次全體委員會議"},"影片種類":"Clip","開始時間":"2024-06-26T09:12:26+08:00","結束時間":"2024-06-26T09:21:17+08:00","影片長度":"00:08:51","支援功能":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/0ea7781078621bd11286f6dc04247b2801867feb29c202cfee23585586e40b3a4b0eb0c020c95f405ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林國成","委員發言時間":"09:12:26 - 09:21:17","會議時間":"2024-06-26T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期交通委員會第17次全體委員會議（事由：邀請交通部就「智慧航安、智慧港灣（港口）相關計畫辦理情形」進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","gazette":{"lineno":97,"blocks":[["林委員國成：（9時12分）謝謝主席，請林次長。"],["主席：請林次長。"],["林委員國成：還有葉局長。"],["主席：請葉局長。"],["林次長國顯：林委員早。"],["林委員國成：次長和局長。首先，我看了你們的業務報告以後，關於電子跟衛星等等的改變過程，事實上，整個導航進入港口，現在重要的是誰在引導？"],["林次長國顯：報告委員，您提的是進港之前？"],["林委員國成：對、對。"],["林次長國顯：進港之前，基本上船自己開，開到一定位置後，需要看各港的規定，如果有引水人的要求，就要引水人來帶。"],["林委員國成：現在完全進港的時候還是要引水人，對不對？"],["林次長國顯：是。"],["林委員國成：所以我現在很冒昧地請教一下，我們整個資訊設置十九億多，設計完了以後，這些引水人還需不需要？"],["林次長國顯：目前我的瞭解是需要，還是需要他們的專業。"],["林委員國成：這是所有的智慧引導也是輔助功能……"],["林次長國顯：是。"],["林委員國成：主要還是引水人嘛！"],["林次長國顯：是，目前為止還是。"],["林委員國成：還是這樣嘛！"],["林次長國顯：世界主流還是。"],["林委員國成：它只是電子化跟資訊化等等，做一個港區裡面安全的輔助引導，主要還是引水人。"],["林次長國顯：報告委員，應該這樣說，船進港之前，我們會把港區所有的資訊透過資訊系統給船，讓他知道整個環境。"],["林委員國成：是，現在問題真正在外海的當然不關我們的事嘛！"],["林次長國顯：瞭解。"],["林委員國成：但是進了港以後，我們現在主要還是靠這些引水人來引導嘛！"],["林次長國顯：是的。"],["林委員國成：我們的智慧電子設計等等也是給引水人另一種輔弼作用，不是完全取代吧，是不是這樣？"],["林次長國顯：對，不是完全取代。"],["林委員國成：不是吧？"],["葉局長協隆：是，委員說得是正確的。"],["林委員國成：好，引水人這個問題，我就要來跟你好好談一下，局長應該知道6月8號，也就是端午節前後，高雄有中油的油輪發生碰撞，那時到底我們的引水人還在不在？或者這些國內的大船隻根本就不需要引水人？"],["葉局長協隆：報告委員，這個事件我們有經過初步的瞭解、調查，因為它碰撞的位置已經是在二港口外堤所謂擋浪堤的位置，依照高雄港相關引航作業的規定，在這個位置的話，引水人是已經可以離開這個船舶了。"],["林委員國成：他離開後，是它另外再自己去移動的，因為一般來講，大油輪進來、經引水人引導之後，變成它就可以自由航行，是不是這樣？"],["葉局長協隆：是的，但是也跟委員報告，就像我們次長剛剛提到的，各港都定有交通的航行指南……"],["林委員國成：這個是你在督導的嘛！這個規定都是你們在規定的，我必須要提醒，那就變成不管我們智慧型的引導輔助工作做得多麼完善，引水人還是要存在的。"],["葉局長協隆：是。"],["林委員國成：所以引水人是非常重要的，我們也知道這些引水人是非常辛苦的，不但在經驗等各方面都一定會凌駕船長，開船的人什麼都要懂，包括從水手，包括從船長，包括從他遠航開船等等的經歷，他都具備非常豐富的經驗，對不對？"],["葉局長協隆：是。"],["林委員國成：所以就這些部分，本席認為，既然輔助的東西還存在，只是讓它補助正確性而已，但是我們的引水人還是非常重要的。"],["葉局長協隆：是的。"],["林委員國成：所以葉局長，因為一個是在空中飛，是無確定；一個是在海上，也是無確定，所以當然啦……你們太多也不行，但是最起碼我們要未雨綢繆，引水人既然是不能斷絕的，那他的培養是很重要的喔！"],["葉局長協隆：是的。"],["林委員國成：但我很納悶的是，聽說我們現在全國不到100人吧？"],["葉局長協隆：報告委員，102人。"],["林委員國成：我們手頭上的資料是只有90幾位，這個也不重要，問題就是說，如同培養一個船長，那是比較簡單的，可是培養一個引水人是非常重要的，所以我還是要建議葉局長，在整個引水人的培養制度方面，一，要嚴謹；二，真的要予以延續，既然不只是儀器或智慧來引導，最後還是要有人去做引導的話，則人才的培養就非常重要。"],["葉局長協隆：委員提醒的非常重要，我們有注意到這個部分，現在每兩年都有定期辦理招考的機制；另外，我們也會針對各港進出船舶的數量，還有剛剛委員特別提到，因為考試及格之後，還有學習引水人的階段，我們會加強督導考核，讓他確實是一個具備專業能力的引水人，確保引水的安全。"],["林委員國成：所以在這裡我必須要跟葉局長做一個建議，引水人既然不能斷絕而且這麼的重要，就長期規劃來看，我看到他們是非常辛苦的，但是在整個勞動力方面，據我瞭解，現在出港量的部分，高雄、基隆、臺中是最大宗的，但是會發生引水人把它引進港區之後，它還可以自己去發生碰撞，這代表什麼？就是管理有問題，也就是說，你們應該要追蹤船舶，直到它停下來以後你們才沒有去監控，所以這個部分我要建議葉局長，這裡可能還是要有一套制度，你們不能只是做規劃，包括港務公司本身經營整個運量的部分，還有船隻安全與否真的是非常重要。","所以在相關評比方面、在整個港區管理方面，我們在世界各國的排名是倒數的，局長，既然我們把政策分開，港務的執行也分開，就應該要做得更細，所以本席特別在這裡提醒葉局長，在整個引水人的培養方面，還有他的身心方面，這個部分真的要有一套完整的制度，既然斷絕不了，最起碼我們要有長期規劃，而且這個部分看起來，似乎航運越蓬勃，引水人就更為重要。所以在這個部分，我要拜託林次長，還有拜託葉局長，在這個部分、在管理上一定要有一個創新的辦法，好不好？"],["林次長國顯：非常謝謝委員的提醒，我們在監督管考跟進出港管理，還有設施設備等等都會要求強化跟改善。"],["林委員國成：好，謝謝。"],["林次長國顯：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝，林委員發言完畢。","我們先處理議事錄，目前在場委員已足3人，進行議事錄之處理，請問各位委員，上次會議議事錄有無錯誤或遺漏之處？（無）好，沒有錯誤，議事錄確定。","接下來請蔡其昌委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":310,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-23-17","speakers":["李昆澤","林國成","蔡其昌","林俊憲","許智傑","何欣純","陳素月","徐富癸","邱若華","游顥","黃健豪","魯明哲","陳亭妃","黃仁","陳冠廷","洪申翰","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","邱志偉","陳培瑜","鍾佳濱","翁曉玲","廖先翔","林德福","李柏毅"],"page_start":253,"meetingDate":["2024-06-26"],"gazette_id":"1136501","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1136501_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期交通委員會第17次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請交通部就「智慧航安、智慧港灣（港口）相關計畫辦理情形」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1136501_00005"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":3.8278437500000004,"end":4.11471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":4.92471875,"end":6.949718750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":7.01721875,"end":12.56909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":12.704093750000002,"end":13.665968750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":17.63159375,"end":18.44159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":19.30221875,"end":19.57221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":21.05721875,"end":22.10346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":22.76159375,"end":26.23784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":26.79471875,"end":32.41409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":33.03846875,"end":34.70909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":35.11409375,"end":35.83971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":36.345968750000004,"end":37.00409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":37.915343750000005,"end":41.27346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":41.627843750000004,"end":42.08346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":42.43784375,"end":43.500968750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":43.87221875,"end":45.289718750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":46.268468750000004,"end":46.70721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":46.70721875,"end":46.74096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":46.90971875,"end":60.66284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":49.424093750000004,"end":50.08221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":60.66284375,"end":75.12471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":64.18971875,"end":64.93221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":65.13471875,"end":65.15159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":75.39471875000001,"end":77.97659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":77.97659375,"end":78.41534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":78.49971875,"end":86.00909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":86.29596875,"end":89.02971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":87.94971875,"end":88.13534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":89.02971875,"end":90.14346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":90.14346875000001,"end":94.02471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":91.69596875,"end":92.52284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":94.02471875,"end":94.05846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":94.05846875,"end":94.07534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":94.07534375,"end":95.03721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":94.83471875000001,"end":95.37471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":95.22284375000001,"end":108.33471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":108.33471875000001,"end":108.48659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":108.48659375000001,"end":110.83221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":108.50346875000001,"end":108.58784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":110.83221875000001,"end":120.02909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":120.02909375,"end":135.95909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":126.72846875,"end":126.77909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":126.77909375,"end":126.84659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":126.99846875000001,"end":127.13346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":133.10721875000002,"end":133.34346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":135.95909375000002,"end":136.31346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":136.24596875,"end":147.80534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":147.82221875000002,"end":149.54346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":148.91909375,"end":150.33659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":150.30284375000002,"end":150.89346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":150.89346875,"end":151.41659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":151.70346875,"end":152.02409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":152.02409375000002,"end":152.31096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":152.31096875,"end":152.41221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":152.47971875000002,"end":152.49659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":152.49659375000002,"end":152.53034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":152.53034375000001,"end":152.54721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":152.54721875,"end":154.03221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":154.03221875,"end":154.45409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":154.69034375,"end":165.23721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":165.96284375000002,"end":166.36784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":166.58721875,"end":169.74284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":170.11409375000002,"end":170.99159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":171.36284375000002,"end":172.07159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":172.27409375000002,"end":179.22659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":180.49221875,"end":204.80909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":204.70784375000002,"end":208.90971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":210.05721875,"end":211.47471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":211.71096875,"end":213.07784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":213.61784375000002,"end":214.37721875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":214.63034375,"end":216.97596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":217.34721875000002,"end":218.49471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":219.11909375000002,"end":221.70096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":220.97534375,"end":221.38034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":221.70096875000002,"end":230.30721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":230.20596875,"end":237.02346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":230.52659375000002,"end":230.56034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":235.35284375,"end":235.53846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":235.57221875000002,"end":235.65659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":237.56346875000003,"end":243.03096875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":243.50346875000002,"end":245.79846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":246.65909375,"end":261.07034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":261.39096875,"end":319.13721875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":277.50659375000004,"end":277.70909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":319.72784375000003,"end":321.43221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":321.43221875,"end":322.73159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":323.05221875,"end":333.12659375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":333.43034375,"end":346.99784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":347.53784375000004,"end":348.70221875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":349.07346875,"end":356.85284375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":357.29159375,"end":361.34159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":361.34159375,"end":386.83971875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":386.83971875000003,"end":396.82971875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":397.03221875,"end":398.60159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":398.98971875,"end":399.63096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":399.90096875,"end":400.94721875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":401.84159375,"end":404.15346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":404.30534375,"end":405.23346875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":405.55409375000005,"end":406.21221875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":407.14034375,"end":408.10221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":408.82784375,"end":409.36784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":409.92471875,"end":410.98784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":411.30846875000003,"end":412.64159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":412.96221875000003,"end":423.61034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":423.91409375,"end":454.08659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":454.76159375000003,"end":457.98471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":457.98471875,"end":458.03534375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":458.03534375000004,"end":495.27846875000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":458.10284375000003,"end":458.22096875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":495.37971875000005,"end":504.86346875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":505.30221875,"end":520.3547187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":508.06971875000005,"end":508.28909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":520.18596875,"end":529.8215937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":529.8215937500001,"end":531.12096875}],"whisperx":[{"start":7.047,"end":7.327,"text":"林國成議員"},{"start":21.344,"end":44.983,"text":"市長、局長首先我看你業務報告以後也就是等等這些電子跟衛星等等的改變的過程但是事實上來講現在我們在整個導航的部分進入港口現在重要的是誰在引導"},{"start":47.105,"end":71.896,"text":"包委員您提的是進港之前對進港進港之前基本上是船自己開開到一定位置後需要各港看他的規定他如果有飲水人的要求他就要飲水人來現在完全進港的時候還是飲水人嘛對不對那所以我現在很冒昧的請教一下我們這整個資訊的設置19億多設計完了以後"},{"start":75.778,"end":93.664,"text":"這些飲水人還需不需要?目前我的了解是還需要還是需要他們的專業這是所有的智慧引導也是輔助工人主要還是飲水人嗎?目前為止還是還是這樣嗎?世界主流還是"},{"start":95.345,"end":116.934,"text":"他只是把這些電子化跟資訊化這些等等也是做一個港區裡面安全的輔助引導主要還是引水人報委員應該這樣說傳進港之前我們會把港區所有的資訊透過資訊系統給傳讓他也知道整個環境"},{"start":121.316,"end":134.725,"text":"現在問題真正在外海裡面當然是不關我們的事但是進了港以後當然我們現在主要還是靠這些飲水人他們來引導"},{"start":136.886,"end":164.991,"text":"我們的智慧電子設計這等等也是給我們的飲水人是另一種虎斃作用不是完全期待吧是不是這樣對不是完全期待不是吧是委員說的是正確的好那飲水人這個問題我就跟你要來好好談一下那局長應該知道6月8號也就是端午節前後在高雄"},{"start":166.722,"end":179.094,"text":"中油的油冷、花生碰撞,這到底我們的飲水人還在不在?或者根本這些國內的大船隻根本不需要飲水人?"},{"start":180.526,"end":208.444,"text":"報告委員 這個事件呢我們有經過初步的瞭解調查那因為他在這個碰撞的位置已經是在二港口外體這個所謂的擋浪體的位置那依照這個高雄港這個引航的這個作業的規定在這個位置那個引水人是已經可以離開離開這個船舶那離開離開他他是另外在自己移動"},{"start":210.097,"end":236.736,"text":"因為這一般來講．大遊輪進來．他已經．那個引水人引導之後．他就變成．是他自由可以航行嗎．是不是這樣是的．但是跟．也跟委員報告．各港．我們次長剛剛提到了．各港都有．定有這個交通的航行指南這個是你在督導嘛．這個規定都是你們在規定啦．我必須要去提醒．"},{"start":237.617,"end":259.83,"text":"那就變成不管我們智慧型的引導輔助工作不管做得多麼完善引水人還是存在的那就變成這個引水人是非常重要的那我們也知道這些引水人是非常辛苦他不但經驗各方面都一定會鄰駕船長"},{"start":262.472,"end":285.517,"text":"他開船的人他就是因為什麼都懂包括從水手包括從船長經歷包括從他的演航開船這等等他說具備的非常豐富的經驗對不對所以這些的部分本席就認為既然輔助的東西還存在只是"},{"start":286.277,"end":286.477,"text":"李卓人議員"},{"start":316.318,"end":316.559,"text":"李卓人議員"},{"start":333.502,"end":333.542,"text":"主席"},{"start":347.591,"end":350.733,"text":"委員提醒非常重要這個我們有注意到這個部分"},{"start":364.904,"end":365.424,"text":"所以業績長這裡我必須要跟"},{"start":389.674,"end":389.734,"text":"林國成議員"},{"start":407.205,"end":423.091,"text":"出港量高雄、基隆、台中這是最大宗的但是會花生自行引那個引水人把他引進去港區之後他還可以自己去花生碰撞這代表什麼管理有問題"},{"start":424.211,"end":451.819,"text":"管理有問題也就是應該要你們要追蹤到他的傳播停下來以後那你們才沒有去監控所以這個部分我要建議啊我要建議我們A級長這裡可能啊還是要有一套的這些制度啦不要說你們只有做規劃那港務公司啊他自己本身去經營他的整個運量的部分"},{"start":452.519,"end":478.233,"text":"這些真的會傳之的安全與否這是非常重要所以我們的評比方面在整個港區管理裡面世界各國我們是倒數喔所以局長既然我們把政策分開港務的執行也分開那應該是要做得更細所以本席特別在這裡要提醒"},{"start":479.033,"end":504.547,"text":"我們業績長在整個我們飲水鹽的培養方面還有他的身心方面這個部分真的我們要有一套完整的既然斷絕不了那最起碼的話我們要有長期規劃還有長期規劃所以這個部分就看起來似乎如果航運越蓬勃那"},{"start":506.107,"end":530.034,"text":"引水人是更重要所以在這個部分我要拜託我們林次長還有拜託我們葉局長在這個部分一定要用一點自己的管理一個創新的辦法好不好非常謝謝委員的提醒我們在進入管考跟進出港管理還有設施設備這邊會強化來要求跟改善好 謝謝謝謝委員"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}