{"error":false,"id":["154243"],"data":{"IVOD_ID":154243,"IVOD_URL":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154243","日期":"2024-06-26","會議資料":{"會議代碼":"聯席會議-11-1-26,35-1","會議代碼:str":"第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境、外交及國防委員會第1次聯席會議","屆":11,"會期":1,"會次":1,"臨時會會次":null,"種類":"聯席會議","委員會代碼":[26,35],"委員會代碼:str":["社會福利及衛生環境委員會","外交及國防委員會"],"標題":"第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境、外交及國防委員會第1次聯席會議"},"影片種類":"Clip","開始時間":"2024-06-26T10:34:37+08:00","結束時間":"2024-06-26T10:42:47+08:00","影片長度":"00:08:10","支援功能":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/0ea7781078621bd139d12692ec8b9ecbb086792d04172957ee23585586e40b3a6de4b3b08fa70a495ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"黃秀芳","委員發言時間":"10:34:37 - 10:42:47","會議時間":"2024-06-26T09:10:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境、外交及國防委員會第1次聯席會議（事由：審查勞動部函送「駐印度台北經濟文化中心與印度台北協會促進僱用印度勞工瞭解備忘錄」之中、英及印地文文本影本案。\n【6月26日及27日二天一次會】）","gazette":{"lineno":549,"blocks":[["黃委員秀芳：（10時34分）謝謝主席，我們請何部長。"],["主席：好，請何部長。"],["何部長佩珊：委員好。"],["黃委員秀芳：部長好。部長，今天我們來看臺印MOU，我們在3、4月的時候也有在委員會特別討論過，我今天想要請教，因為我當時在委員會也有請教許部長，未來如果我們朝向直聘的話，勢必會增加所有同仁的業務量，也許直聘後你們可能也會把這個業務委外，變成委外經營，如果是這樣的狀況，那跟現在仲介服務有什麼不一樣？我想請問。"],["何部長佩珊：是，委員，我剛剛有講到未來臺印MOU直聘必須是一個新的作法，我們也在嘗試，公部門未來是不是有辦法去承擔這樣的業務量，或是掌握產業之間的彼此合作，是否能夠取代仲介？事實上我說真的，這個必須有待檢視……"],["黃委員秀芳：是。"],["何部長佩珊：所以您提到的問題也確實是問題，所以我們只能儘量，看看怎麼樣儘量做啦……"],["黃委員秀芳：所以你們現在要怎麼做？外界可能也很期待未來臺印能夠直聘，我相信部長你應該也知道……"],["何部長佩珊：對。"],["黃委員秀芳：我們現在很多公部門的業務其實都是委外去經營、委外去承辦，像是勞動部也有很多業務委外，對不對？有一些行政工作也是委外啊！這樣子的話，未來這個直聘的工作是你們內部會自己去做，還是會委外？如果是委外，我覺得其實就跟現在仲介在經營是一樣的，我希望你能夠再具體的講一下。"],["何部長佩珊：是，關於這個直聘的模式，我還是要強調，我們今天推動臺印MOU是為了解決國內勞動力不足跟缺工的問題，倒不是為了推動直聘而去做臺印MOU，這我要坦白講，所以我一直強調是雙軌……"],["黃委員秀芳：對。"],["何部長佩珊：事實上要就印方那邊的現實情況來看，印度沒有直聘，而我們這邊要做直聘的話，我們有直聘的能力，但經驗說真的是有限，現在必須做全新的嘗試，所以那也只是小規模的試辦而已。"],["黃委員秀芳：那小規模是多小的規模？可不可以就你們現在的想法來說明，小規模是怎樣的小規模？"],["何部長佩珊：我想也許剛開始1,000人裡面可能百分之幾是用試辦的直聘試試看，看有沒有辦法做，因為還需要對方的配合，事實上當時在這個MOU談判時，印方是反對放這個條文的，我要坦白講，是我方一直堅持，因為他們也很感謝，為了這個MOU可以推動，他們也願意接受，可是我們真的要尊重對方，如果我們要引進對方的移工，還是必須看對方的狀況。"],["黃委員秀芳：好，印度移工最快是什麼時候？剛剛部長有特別提到是小規模試辦，那最快是什麼時候會試辦？"],["何部長佩珊：您是指印度移工進來嗎？"],["黃委員秀芳：對。"],["何部長佩珊：最快也是1年以後的事情了。"],["黃委員秀芳：1年以後？"],["何部長佩珊：對，其實還蠻長的，而且……"],["黃委員秀芳：好，在這1年當中，如果未來有直聘，可能整個程序或者是人力的配置，我覺得你們應該在這1年內好好的去規劃。"],["何部長佩珊：是。如果今天這樣的MOU可以經大院通過，那麼我們就趕快來嘗試這個新的作法，看可以怎麼做，然後我們可以跟委員報告。"],["黃委員秀芳：是。另外，如果未來直聘的話，我上次在質詢的時候有特別提到，整個程序可能要更簡便，應該要讓民眾更方便，能夠直接在網路上面申請……"],["何部長佩珊：是。"],["黃委員秀芳：整個表格可能要更簡便、更方便，我希望這方面你們可能也要去思考一下，要不然政府很多的申請書真的很繁瑣、很繁雜……"],["何部長佩珊：就整死人了……"],["黃委員秀芳：然後程序一關一關……"],["何部長佩珊：是。"],["黃委員秀芳：這樣的話，一般的雇主可能也會覺得直聘太麻煩……"],["何部長佩珊：對。"],["黃委員秀芳：可能又會委託別人來辦理，如果要朝向直聘或者是有仲介這樣的雙軌，我覺得直聘應該要更方便的讓一般雇主來申請，整個程序要更簡便。"],["何部長佩珊：對，我們現在先著重於改善我們國內自己的直聘問題……"],["黃委員秀芳：是。"],["何部長佩珊：我現在在推動一個勞政友善化的計畫，我要求檢討所有移工申請流程到底有哪些繁瑣的地方，儘量能夠讓人民開始覺得方便了起來。"],["黃委員秀芳：是。"],["何部長佩珊：比如說，申請一個移工為什麼要複雜到書表有幾百種？然後大家都看不懂，如果這點都沒有辦法克服的話，說真的要做G to G直聘是很困難的啦！"],["黃委員秀芳：是。"],["何部長佩珊：所以我覺得我們應該先精進國內的直聘問題，對此先來改善，我現在正在努力這一塊。"],["黃委員秀芳：好，我最近聽到很多人引進農業移工，有很多農場或者是養豬場，我最近碰到的是養豬場，他們自己的小小養豬場有聘一、兩個外籍移工，他們覺得這確實幫助非常大，因為缺工的問題造成很多3K工作沒人做，如果說有這樣子的移工進來，確實可以解決一些傳統產業沒人做的問題，所以我希望未來面對缺工問題時，我再次重申，如果要直聘的話，整個流程、整個程序、整個表格真的要非常的簡便，要不然就如同我剛剛講的，當他自己要聘農業移工時，如果非常的繁瑣，也許他還是會請別人來代辦。就像現在有很多事情覺得很麻煩，可能就請代書幫他辦，如果聘請移工太繁瑣的話，他還是會回到仲介那一邊啊！所以我在這邊要特別請部長針對這部分真的要好好思考一下。"],["何部長佩珊：是。"],["黃委員秀芳：未來直聘的話，真的整個流程、整個程序不要太繁瑣，讓所有的人可以很簡便的在網路上面直接申請，好不好？"],["何部長佩珊：好，謝謝委員。"],["黃委員秀芳：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝黃秀芳委員的質詢，現在休息5分鐘。","休息（10時42分）","繼續開會（10時49分）"],["主席：我們繼續開會，請大家就坐。","接下來我們請林楚茵委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":114,"meet_id":"聯席會議-11-1-26,35-1","speakers":["王育敏","林月琴","蘇清泉","陳昭姿","陳菁徽","廖偉翔","王正旭","邱鎮軍","羅美玲","洪申翰","黃秀芳","林楚茵","王定宇","陳冠廷","羅廷瑋","涂權吉","沈伯洋","陳培瑜","黃珊珊","林淑芬","陳瑩","劉建國","林憶君","楊曜","盧縣一","楊瓊瓔"],"page_start":49,"meetingDate":["2024-06-26"],"gazette_id":"1136701","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1136701_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境、外交及國防委員會第1次聯席會議紀錄","content":"審查勞動部函送「駐印度台北經濟文化中心與印度台北協會促進僱用印度勞工瞭解備忘錄」之\n中、英及印地文文本影本案","agenda_id":"1136701_00002"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":2.6297187500000003,"end":5.8697187500000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":9.26159375,"end":9.31221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":9.396593750000001,"end":43.99034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":44.361593750000004,"end":45.610343750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":45.89721875,"end":57.27096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":58.01346875,"end":66.51846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":66.36659375,"end":66.65346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":66.65346875,"end":85.80659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":66.68721875,"end":66.73784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":81.85784375,"end":82.24596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":85.08096875000001,"end":85.46909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":86.65034375,"end":92.99534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":92.99534375,"end":93.01221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":93.38346875,"end":93.61971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":93.61971875,"end":134.03534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":134.38971875000001,"end":135.36846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":135.58784375000002,"end":136.49909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":138.30471875,"end":140.56596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":138.45659375,"end":139.26659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":140.56596875,"end":143.50221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":144.31221875,"end":159.82034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":152.34471875,"end":153.50909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":160.09034375000002,"end":160.49534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":160.63034375,"end":161.05221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":161.32221875000002,"end":182.29784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":167.14409375000002,"end":167.21159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":167.54909375,"end":167.63346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":180.32346875000002,"end":183.52971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":184.01909375000002,"end":188.28846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":188.50784375,"end":190.38096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":190.38096875000002,"end":190.39784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":190.39784375000002,"end":190.41471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":190.90409375000002,"end":190.93784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":190.93784375,"end":191.57909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":192.47346875000002,"end":196.00034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":196.23659375000003,"end":197.14784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":197.50221875000003,"end":217.81971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":198.70034375,"end":199.18971875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":204.48846875,"end":204.57284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":204.70784375000002,"end":204.79221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":206.12534375,"end":206.56409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":211.35659375,"end":211.76159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":218.07284375,"end":231.03284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":220.33409375000002,"end":220.38471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":227.99534375000002,"end":228.18096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":229.90221875,"end":230.23971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":231.03284375,"end":243.60471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":231.37034375000002,"end":231.60659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":244.11096875,"end":250.89471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":245.29221875000002,"end":246.99659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":249.49409375000002,"end":250.69221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":251.60346875000002,"end":270.65534375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":252.68346875,"end":256.24409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":269.03534375000004,"end":271.02659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":271.33034375,"end":275.90346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":276.34221875000003,"end":282.16409375},{"speaker":"SPEAK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我們請何部長好請何部長"},{"start":9.501,"end":35.953,"text":"委員好部長好部長針對今天我們來看這個台印MOU那我們在3、4月的時候也有在委員會也有特別討論過那我今天想要請教因為我當時在委員會的時候也有請教我們這個許部長就是說未來如果我們朝向就是這個執聘的話那勢必會增加我們所有這個"},{"start":37.674,"end":37.854,"text":"韓國瑜委員"},{"start":58.195,"end":82.27,"text":"是,就是委員我剛剛有講到未來這個產業MOU裡面這個紙片它必須是一個新的做法那我們也在嘗試是不是未來有辦法去承擔公部門去承擔這樣的業務量或是掌握跟產業之間的彼此的合作能夠取代仲介事實上我說真的這個必須有待檢視啦對,這您提的問題也確實是問題所以"},{"start":86.727,"end":87.328,"text":"我相信部長你應該也知道齁"},{"start":105.103,"end":133.479,"text":"如果是這樣的話因為我們現在很多公部門的業務其實都是委外委外去經營委外去承辦喔像我們勞動部也有很多的這個業務也是委外啊對不對就有一些行政工作也是委外啊那如果是這樣子的話你未來這個職聘的工作是你們自己內部會自己去做還是會委外那如果是委外的話其實就跟現在的這個仲介在經營"},{"start":134.46,"end":135.06,"text":"我一直強調是雙軌"},{"start":161.515,"end":183.385,"text":"對,事實上你要就印方那邊的現實的情況來看印度它沒有職聘啦我這邊要做職聘的話我這邊事實上我的職聘能力也有也經驗說真的也有限然後我現在必須全新的嘗試所以那也只是小規模的試辦而已啦那你小規模是多小的規模你可不可以"},{"start":184.105,"end":198.831,"text":"可以以你們現在的想法,小規模是怎樣的小規模?我想,也許你比如說我們剛開始1000人好了,裡面可能百分之幾是用這樣的那個職聘試試看嘛。"},{"start":203.454,"end":205.296,"text":"他們也很感謝,為了在MOU可以推動,他們也願意接受這樣子。"},{"start":223.374,"end":242.454,"text":"可是我們真的要尊重對方,如果我們要引進對方的移工的話,我還是必須看對方的狀況這樣子。那最快就是說印度移工最快是什麼時候?剛剛部長有特別提到就是說小規模試辦,那最快是什麼時候會試辦?"},{"start":244.436,"end":269.156,"text":"您是指這個印度移工的進來嗎?那最快也是一年以後的事情了。一年以後,對。對,其實還蠻長的。好,那在這一年當中,應該你們要把該,如果說未來有職聘的話,可能這個整個程序,或者是人力怎麼配置,我覺得應該在這一年內你們應該要好好的去規劃。是,對。"},{"start":271.438,"end":273.999,"text":"我上次在質詢的時候我有特別提到就是說整個程序可能是要更簡便"},{"start":291.286,"end":315.995,"text":"應該是要更方便民眾直接在網路上面申請那整個表格可能要更簡便然後更方便所以我也希望說你們這方面可能也要去思考一下要不然其實政府很多的這個要申請書啊什麼可能就是真的很繁瑣很繁雜然後那個程序一關一關我覺得如果是這樣的話如果"},{"start":317.555,"end":319.136,"text":"我現在率先著重於改善我們自己國內的職聘的問題"},{"start":344.675,"end":358.671,"text":"我現在對推動一個勞政友善化的計畫我要求這邊必須檢討我們整個所有這個移工申請的流程裡面到底有哪些繁瑣的地方能夠盡量能夠讓人民覺得說開始方便起來"},{"start":359.292,"end":359.332,"text":"是。是。"},{"start":383.692,"end":397.382,"text":"所以我有希望就是說因為我最近就聽到很多這個我們現在有那個農業就是已經農業移工嘛有很多農場或者是這個養豬場我最近是碰到這個養豬場"},{"start":399.103,"end":423.052,"text":"他們是說他們自己小小的一個養豬場可是他們就有聘一兩個這個外籍移工那他們覺得說這個確實是幫助他們非常的大因為這個缺工的問題造成很多這個3K的這個工作沒人做那如果說有這樣子的移工進來的話確實可以解決一些這個"},{"start":424.532,"end":425.793,"text":"國際社會福利及印度協會促進僱用印度勞工瞭解備忘錄"},{"start":446.61,"end":468.679,"text":"如果說非常的繁瑣他還是會請別人來代辦就像我們現在有很多事情覺得說很麻煩他可能就請了一個代書幫他辦那如果說這個我們太繁瑣的話要聘請移工太繁瑣的話他還是會回到仲介那一邊所以我在這邊要特地"},{"start":469.199,"end":470.62,"text":"黃秀芳委員的質詢我們現在休息五分鐘"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}