{"error":false,"id":["154247"],"data":{"IVOD_ID":154247,"IVOD_URL":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154247","日期":"2024-06-26","會議資料":{"會議代碼":"委員會-11-1-19-17","會議代碼:str":"第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第17次全體委員會議","屆":11,"會期":1,"會次":17,"臨時會會次":null,"種類":"委員會","委員會代碼":[19],"委員會代碼:str":["經濟委員會"],"標題":"第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第17次全體委員會議"},"影片種類":"Clip","開始時間":"2024-06-26T10:45:48+08:00","結束時間":"2024-06-26T10:58:35+08:00","影片長度":"00:12:47","支援功能":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/0ea7781078621bd19c584c28eb73d75ac258fa09de8d0f303176ac657cb8ac9c0fd4b0f6903ffae55ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"邱志偉","委員發言時間":"10:45:48 - 10:58:35","會議時間":"2024-06-26T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第17次全體委員會議（事由：邀請經濟部部長就「面對國營事業未來10年人力嚴重斷層之因應作為」進行報告，並備質詢。【6月26日及6月27日兩天一次會】）","gazette":{"lineno":623,"blocks":[["邱委員志偉：（10時46分）謝謝主席。請次長休息一下，我想請教台電曾董事長、中油李董事長、台水李董事長、台糖楊董事長。"],["主席：請4位董事長請上臺。"],["邱委員志偉：今天主要是討論國營事業人力的問題，當然國營事業受到經濟部相關的任務指示，你們也有內部經營管理的問題、人事的權宜問題，所有董事長都在，請教企業經營有內部環境跟外部環境，內部環境會面臨到內部經營環境，你的強項是哪裡、弱項是哪裡？外部經營環境，你的機會是哪裡、威脅是哪裡？所以我要請教4位董事長，針對目前在你們執掌之下、執政之下、主政之下，4家國營企業的SWOT分析，先從中油來好了，你們內部強項在哪裡？弱勢在哪裡？外部的機會在哪裡？威脅在哪裡？"],["李董事長順欽：跟委員報告，當然中油公司身為國營事業，因為相對穩定，福利也比較好，所以基本上這應該是國營事業的一個強項。"],["邱委員志偉：這是內部的強勢，那弱項呢？"],["李董事長順欽：如果要說弱勢，其實這個都環環相扣，相對也因為國營事業，所以有很多框架、有很多法政面，這點是比較難以像民營企業有那麼大的彈性。"],["邱委員志偉：現階段面臨到外部經營環境的機會在哪裡？"],["李董事長順欽：目前以中油來講，現在面臨全球淨零碳排的危機，但危機就是機會，是危機也是轉機。對中油公司來講，減碳節能是我們未來轉型非常好的機會與方向。"],["邱委員志偉：最大的外部威脅是哪些事項？"],["李董事長順欽：就外部威脅而言，其實這個都是相對的，同樣的，剛剛講到這是一個機會，當然這本身也是一個威脅，因為中油公司是能源事業，是石化產業，面對全球暖化氣候變遷，我們是海嘯第一排，首當其衝……"],["邱委員志偉：針對SWOT你很清楚，強項要讓它更強，弱項要讓它變小，然後機會要擴大，威脅要降低，這是你作為董事長該有的責任，對不對？"],["李董事長順欽：是、是。"],["邱委員志偉：你作為國營事業董事長，現階段你最迫切需要經濟部給你協助的事項是什麼？"],["李董事長順欽：我想這一部分……"],["邱委員志偉：增資的問題嗎？"],["李董事長順欽：中油公司的問題有幾個面向，人力資源方面當然需要大部、還有包括大院的協助……"],["邱委員志偉：缺口多少？現在缺口有多少？"],["李董事長順欽：以現在來講，我們的實際員額是16,844位，但我們的編制員額事實上是17,000多，大概還有1,000多個缺口。"],["邱委員志偉：多久時間可以補齊？"],["李董事長順欽：跟委員報告，這個缺口可能在7月16日有一批人員退休，明年1月16日又一批退休……"],["邱委員志偉：缺口會擴大？"],["李董事長順欽：就大概持平，大概balance的狀況。"],["邱委員志偉：這些連次長都有聽到吧？目前他們需要經濟部協助的事項，回去要跟部長報告一下。增資問題需不需要經濟部協助？"],["李董事長順欽：在未來轉型方面，很多新能源領域都需要大部跟大院的協助，包括氫能的發展，以短期來講，新四輕已經在5月13日獲得……"],["邱委員志偉：我知道，我問你資金面的問題……"],["李董事長順欽：經濟面？"],["邱委員志偉：資金面的問題。"],["李董事長順欽：我現在要報告的是，我需要政策支持。再來，財務面希望能夠給我們財務方面的支持，包括增資……"],["邱委員志偉：次長，聽到了吧？要協助增資。"],["李董事長順欽：當然包括增資，其實我已經連續四年提出，過去這四年中油因為政策補貼就超過5,000億，光天然氣、汽柴油就超過5,000億。"],["邱委員志偉：每家國營事業都有相同的問題，謝謝李董事長。","一樣的問題請教台電曾董事長，也就是內部的強勢跟弱勢項目，然後外部的機會跟威脅。"],["曾董事長文生：剛才李董事長提到的，台電也都有一定的相當性，不過最重要的大概是這樣的。主要是台電有工程人員，還有機電類人員，這部分與現在國內最主要產業有人才上最高度的重疊及競爭。這部分我們其實也透過很多方式來解決，首先第一件事，譬如今年調薪，我們新進同仁調的比例相對來講就比較高，至於坐在這邊的副總等等的，幾乎就只按照規定調。我想儘量提高新進人員的底薪和福利，這是重要的事。另外一個就是，在人才進用上，其實國營會幫了不少忙，人事總處也幫我們忙，讓我們可以在既有的人事法令裡面彈性規範，這點我們都運用了，接下來在人才競爭上，我想大概有兩個大事：第一，我們在同類型的行業類別裡面的薪資，在人才的競爭上是不是能夠有比較合理的薪資？第二是人事進用的彈性，希望能給我們彈性。"],["邱委員志偉：這就是你們內部經營的問題，你瞭解問題，並希望能提出有效的解決方案。外部呢？你們在哪些項目有競爭的機會？又有哪些威脅？"],["曾董事長文生：就業務來講，最大狀況其實是電力需求一直在成長，就公司營運來講，被需要其實就是最大的機會，但最大的挑戰也是在被需要的同時能夠充分供應，這是我們相對來講要去努力的。"],["邱委員志偉：現階段最需要經濟部協助的事項？"],["曾董事長文生：現階段大概委員也清楚，行政院編了1,000億的預算……"],["邱委員志偉：還沒到位？"],["曾董事長文生：對，還待審議，不過已經送來立法院了，尚待大院審議。"],["邱委員志偉：所以我們也要快速，立法院要加速審查。"],["曾董事長文生：因為立法院議程很多，所以我們希望能夠有機會排上。"],["邱委員志偉：我們大家一起努力，儘快讓這1,000億能夠通過。","台糖楊董事長，一樣的問題請教你。"],["楊董事長明州：謝謝委員。基本上國營事業內部問題大概都差不多，一個是同仁的心態，我來台糖一年多，我覺得內部方面要調整心態……"],["邱委員志偉：心態要怎麼調配？多一事不如少一事？"],["楊董事長明州：國營事業當然有它的保障，一方面國營事業有類似公務人員的保障。在外部方面，以台糖來說，台糖有三百多個品項全部都要跟外部競爭，跟油、電、水是不一樣的。台糖同仁在這方面表現得還可以，也就是表現在獲利方面，大概呈現……"],["邱委員志偉：外部環境的變化，你們……"],["楊董事長明州：台糖在外部環境上，要全部接受外部相同的競爭，沒有寡占，沒有獨占，也沒有保護，全部都要跟外部競爭！這個部分是……"],["邱委員志偉：來自於外部的威脅有哪些呢？"],["楊董事長明州：以外部威脅來說，我常說台糖在一、二級產業做得非常好，但在外部上面，我們就比不上所謂的第三級，就是行銷方面。在外部跟大家做競爭一定要行銷，但行銷需要編列的費用……"],["邱委員志偉：一、二級是產業，三級是行銷，所以行銷需要更多人才？"],["楊董事長明州：如果投入的費用沒有產出一定效能，且國營事業的公公婆婆太多了！"],["邱委員志偉：連次長，你聽到了吧？第三級的部分。現階段還需要經濟部協助哪些事項？"],["楊董事長明州：大概沒有吧，就是放手讓國營事業去做，如果做不好，該要承擔就承擔。"],["邱委員志偉：所以管太多了，要放手讓國營事業好好去經營。","最後請教台水李董事長一樣的問題。"],["李董事長嘉榮：謝謝委員指導。我們台水公司也經常在做SWOT分析，有關水公司的優勢，最主要是我們全省各個官網都有連通在一起，可以相互做資源調度。在我們水公司有很多水處理或自來水工程的專業人才，畢竟我們是國內最大的自來水事業，所以有很多廠站可以重新做利用。在劣勢部分，大概就是我們有一些管線比較老舊，大院也經常關切我們的漏水率問題。另外，我們還有一些很重要的大口徑管線還沒有……"],["邱委員志偉：細節不用講，就整體經營面，你們未來會碰到哪些機會？有哪些威脅？"],["李董事長嘉榮：機會部分，由於水資源越來越受重視，所以我們也有討論到AI智慧，因為這個區塊進步很快速，或許我們可以導入一些科技來加強管理。其實我們有注意到公司的體質，最近可能因極端氣候影響造成枯旱或是停塞的議題……"],["邱委員志偉：今天四位董事長都在，如何將內部環境的優勢強化，把相對劣勢的部分縮小；將外部機會擴大、多元化，並降低威脅，這是大家共同的責任，我想連次長也聽到了，四位董事長都有提出他們的看法。","我想利用最後30秒跟次長講女性員工比例相對偏低的問題。從台電跟中油來看，台電、中油的女性員工比例跟國際同業比，國際同業大概都超過兩成以上，但台電跟中油女性的員工比例大概只有15%，這一定是有原因所導致的，至於是什麼原因造成？針對這些問題能夠提出解決方案，最起碼讓女性在職場、在國營事業，特別是在台電、中油，能夠維持比較高的比例。我想可能有相關法律的限制讓比例沒有辦法提升，尤其跟國際同業比較。"],["連次長錦漳：應該是沒有法令限制，但是對女性……"],["邱委員志偉：從數字來看……"],["連次長錦漳：應該是行業別的關係……"],["邱委員志偉：比起美國、比起韓國，你們的比例就是比較低。"],["連次長錦漳：對。"],["邱委員志偉：比起法國、比起韓國，就是低了5%。"],["連次長錦漳：國營事業可以就不同的職系或職位……"],["邱委員志偉：我把問題點出來了，你要針對問題去提解決方案！"],["連次長錦漳：我再跟他們……提高女性員工比例……"],["邱委員志偉：也拜託四位董事長，針對我今天所提SWOT的問題是不是能給我書面資料？因為質詢時間太短，沒有辦法講得非常清楚。是不是提供書面資料給我，針對我所提的SWOT分析再來做一些討論？"],["主席：謝謝，請四大公司將SWOT預定方針及書面資料詳實提供給我們委員，謝謝。","接下來我們請陳超明委員詢答。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":234,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-19-17","speakers":["楊瓊瓔","林岱樺","邱議瑩","張啓楷","張嘉郡","鄭正鈐","鄭天財Sra 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邀請經濟部部長就「面對國營事業未來10年人力嚴重斷層之因應作為」進行報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1136701_00004"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":0.03096875,"end":0.047843750000000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":0.06471875,"end":0.65534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":11.82659375,"end":13.024718750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":13.969718750000002,"end":14.83034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":15.47159375,"end":17.12534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":18.22221875,"end":19.80846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":20.78721875,"end":21.37784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":21.54659375,"end":21.90096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":22.94721875,"end":23.53784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":23.976593750000003,"end":24.567218750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":25.57971875,"end":26.727218750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":27.65534375,"end":29.96721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":30.50721875,"end":32.70096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":32.83596875,"end":33.51096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":35.62034375,"end":39.282218750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":39.83909375,"end":41.205968750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":41.712218750000005,"end":49.89659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":50.369093750000005,"end":51.010343750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":51.516593750000006,"end":52.697843750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":53.45721875,"end":57.27096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":57.55784375,"end":66.16409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":66.40034375,"end":70.09596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":70.60221875,"end":73.15034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":73.48784375000001,"end":76.06971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":76.79534375,"end":80.99721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":81.50346875000001,"end":82.85346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":84.43971875000001,"end":90.81846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":91.52721875,"end":92.55659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":95.99909375,"end":97.04534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":97.39971875,"end":116.31659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":105.36471875000001,"end":106.73159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":107.60909375,"end":107.79471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":108.03096875,"end":108.33471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":116.75534375000001,"end":122.56034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":121.63221875,"end":124.23096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":123.16784375,"end":125.49659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":125.63159375000001,"end":146.26971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":145.83096875,"end":148.56471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":148.56471875,"end":150.75846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":151.38284375,"end":153.20534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":153.49221875,"end":166.24971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":166.72221875000002,"end":168.13971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":168.13971875000001,"end":173.28659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":168.15659375,"end":168.54471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":170.26596875,"end":170.63721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":173.33721875,"end":189.30096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":173.64096875,"end":173.67471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":189.55409375000002,"end":192.01784375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":191.25846875000002,"end":191.93346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":192.01784375000003,"end":194.04284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":193.08096875,"end":193.82346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":194.80221875,"end":229.27784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":201.94034375,"end":202.64909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":203.22284375,"end":203.23971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":224.78909375,"end":226.25721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":228.80534375000002,"end":238.96409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":238.96409375000002,"end":255.85596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":253.57784375000003,"end":255.43409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":256.56471875,"end":257.18909375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":257.72909375,"end":283.02471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":258.42096875000004,"end":258.48846875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":258.48846875000004,"end":258.97784375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":258.97784375000003,"end":259.28159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":259.28159375,"end":259.29846875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":268.47846875,"end":270.13221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":283.02471875000003,"end":290.02784375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":284.35784375000003,"end":284.71221875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":285.69096875,"end":287.07471875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":290.51721875000004,"end":295.73159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":290.56784375,"end":290.87159375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":290.87159375000005,"end"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這個還帶審議那個已經送來立院了已經送來立法院現在就是還上帶大院審議我們要快速 要加速審查因為立法院議程很多所以我們希望能夠有機會派上 謝謝我們大家一起努力盡快讓這一千億能夠通過好 那個台堂那個楊董事長一樣問題請教您"},{"start":431.588,"end":449.366,"text":"謝謝委員大概基本上我們國營事業的內部問題大概都是差不多一個是同仁的一個是心態我是感覺我來台堂大概一年多我覺得是心態方面在內部方面大家要一個調整心態要怎麼調配基本上是這樣國營事業當然有它的保障"},{"start":453.951,"end":480.314,"text":"那一方面國營事業有類似公務人員的一個保障但是以台糖來說在外部上面台糖的300多個品項全部都要跟外部做競爭跟油、電水是不一樣所以我們台糖的同仁在這一方面基本上在這一方面也表現得相當的還可以表現在這個獲利方面"},{"start":481.535,"end":482.196,"text":"外部的威脅有哪些?"},{"start":503.992,"end":525.11,"text":"基本上啦就是我常說台糖在12級產業做得非常好但是在外部上面我們就比不上所謂的第三級行銷方面在外部要跟大家做競爭一定要有一個行銷但是行銷需要編列的這個費用費用的話你投入的費用沒有產出一定的效能"},{"start":526.089,"end":528.43,"text":"最後請台水理事長趕快問大家請稿"},{"start":552.819,"end":569.92,"text":"謝謝委員指導,那開水公司大概我們也自己經常在做SWAT分析,那水公司的一些優勢最主要我們全省各個官網都有聯通在一起,可以相互做一些支援調度,那因為"},{"start":571.161,"end":597.843,"text":"水公司我們有很多的專業就是水處理或是自來水工程的專業的人才在我們水公司因為畢竟是我們國內也是最大的一個自來水事業所以相關的我們有很多的廠商可以從而做利用那另外在類似的部分大概我們就是有一些管線比較老舊的問題可能大菸這邊也經常在關切"},{"start":599.364,"end":624.209,"text":"我們就漏水利的問題那另外我們還有一些很重要的一些大口徑的管線還沒有那太細節不用講就整體鏡面那你未來碰到了哪些機會有哪些的威脅機會的部分大概就是因為水資源越來越受重視越來越受重視那另外我們也去討論到說AI智慧的這個區塊"},{"start":626.109,"end":642.243,"text":"進步很快速或許我們可以導入一些的這些科技來加強我們的管理那我們也是注意到我們公司的一個體質就是最近可能也是極端氣候影響可能孤寒的議題或是說有一些停塞的議題"},{"start":643.263,"end":667.608,"text":"市委董事長都在就是說如何把內部的這個所面對的環境把它這個優勢把它強化把它這個相對劣勢把它縮小把外部的機會把它擴大多元化這個威脅降低這是大家共同的責任那連市長你都聽到了市委董事長他們都有提出他們相關的看法那最後這個30秒我跟市長講就是說"},{"start":670.39,"end":670.75,"text":"議員：邱志偉"},{"start":691.505,"end":712.852,"text":"這個一定有相關的原因出現 相關造成這個原因是哪 是什麼原因 針對這個問題能夠提出解決方案 最起碼讓女性在職場 在國營事業特別是台電中油的職場能夠維持這個比較高的一個比例 可能有相關法律的限制讓他們這個比例沒有辦法提升 跟國際同業來比較"},{"start":715.388,"end":715.688,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":733.098,"end":761.347,"text":"我覺得國營事業是可以就那個不同的那個那個職系或職位我把這個問題這個點出來的但是你要尊重這個問題我再跟他們提高理性的那個員工比例也請也拜託這個四位董事長針對我今天所提的SWAT的問題是不是有一個書面資料因為執行時間太短沒有辦法這個講得非常清楚是不是有個書面資料提供給給我那我針對你們提出的這個SWAT的分析我們再來做一些討論"},{"start":763.983,"end":764.244,"text":"主席"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}