{"error":false,"id":["154257"],"data":{"IVOD_ID":154257,"IVOD_URL":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154257","日期":"2024-06-26","會議資料":{"會議代碼":"委員會-11-1-15-25","會議代碼:str":"第11屆第1會期內政委員會第25次全體委員會議","屆":11,"會期":1,"會次":25,"臨時會會次":null,"種類":"委員會","委員會代碼":[15],"委員會代碼:str":["內政委員會"],"標題":"第11屆第1會期內政委員會第25次全體委員會議"},"影片種類":"Clip","開始時間":"2024-06-26T10:34:11+08:00","結束時間":"2024-06-26T10:43:43+08:00","影片長度":"00:09:32","支援功能":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/0ea7781078621bd122f13400f81ee6cb68d28c953871b3693176ac657cb8ac9c69a9bda2e6f581175ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"黃國昌","委員發言時間":"10:34:11 - 10:43:43","會議時間":"2024-06-26T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期內政委員會第25次全體委員會議（事由：一、審查行政院函請審議「消防法部分條文修正草案」案。二、審查委員陳亭妃等17人擬具「消防法部分條文修正草案」案。三、審查委員黃捷等17人擬具「消防法部分條文修正草案」案。四、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具「消防法部分條文修正草案」案。五、審查委員廖先翔等18人擬具「消防法第十五條、第二十一條之二及第四十三條之一條文修正草案」案。六、審查委員吳琪銘等19人擬具「消防法第二十一條之一、第二十一條之二及第四十三條之一條文修正草案」案。七、審查台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「消防法第四十三條之一條文修正草案」案。八、審查委員范雲等21人擬具「消防法部分條文修正草案」案。【第一案及第八案如未經各黨團簽署不復議同意書則不予審查。】\n【6月26日及27日兩天一次會】）","gazette":{"lineno":482,"blocks":[["黃委員國昌：（10時34分）謝謝主席。麻煩有請部長。"],["主席：好，部長。"],["劉部長世芳：委員好。"],["黃委員國昌：部長好。今天在處理有關於消防法的修正草案，重中之重，大概是非常多消防弟兄他們期待的，也就是職業安全衛生保護的問題，現在在法規上面，把消防弟兄放在是跟公務人員一樣的安全衛生管理辦法，這個是保訓會轄下他們所推動的辦法，不過從保訓會自己過去委託的研究報告就已經很清楚地點出來了，這個安衛辦法沒有監督，也沒有罰則，根本就沒有用。當然，安衛辦法的修正、強化是保訓會和人事總處必須要面對的問題，但我們先處理消防弟兄關心的事情，過去這個安衛辦法該修沒有修、該推動沒有推動，大家全部都在踢皮球，現在搞到要到消防法裡面設專章。不過，目前基層消防員的訴求是全部納入職安法當中，今天早上消防員權益促進會發了一個聲明，他們再次呼籲他們不希望用消防法裡面的專章，他們希望全面納入職安法，對於我們基層消防弟兄這樣的訴求，部長有什麼回應？"],["劉部長世芳：因為職安法的主管機關並不是內政部，我是不是可以請相關部會回應一下，好嗎？"],["黃委員國昌：可以。"],["主席：請署長。"],["鄒署長子廉：委員好，我是勞動部職安署。有關職安法的部分，確實在102年修法的過程當中，我們試著討論要把公務員納入職安法，可是在102年的時候已經定調，公務員辦法的安全……"],["黃委員國昌：你說102年定調嗎？"],["鄒署長子廉：是職安法修法的時候，那時候我們是希望……"],["黃委員國昌：102年定調是2013年嗎？"],["鄒署長子廉：是。"],["黃委員國昌：那個時候還是馬政府時期，現在新的政府沒有新的思維嗎？出了這麼多事情，這麼多寶貴的生命、寶貴的家庭都破碎了，所以現在民進黨政府是蕭規曹隨嗎？2013年的政策到2024年沒有重新檢討的必要嗎？對於消防弟兄希望全面納入職安法，請教消防署署長，你是所有消防弟兄的大家長，最該幫他們講話的就是你，你贊不贊成？"],["蕭署長煥章：跟委員報告，是不是給我一點時間說明？"],["黃委員國昌：請。"],["蕭署長煥章：謝謝。消防的職業安全絕對比勞工的職業安全還高，委員應該可以支持這個論點，消防的職業安全也比一般公務人員還高，所以整個盤點以後，事實上我們有兩個研究案在做處理，一個是針對消防到底用什麼法律案來確保安全，所以在過去三年我們已經把美國的消防員職業安全、日本東京的消防人員職業安全引進到臺灣，引進到臺灣以後要怎麼建構起消防專屬的職業安全，這是我們的首要目標。有了這個首要目標以後，消防法的修正是我們從法律面這邊來執行的地方，另外一部分，我們目前獲得行政院核准職業安全的中程計畫五年計畫，11億的經費也核定，也就是在臺灣目前不是很明確，而且消防員出現很多狀況的情形之下，怎麼建構起消防人員的職業安全是我們的目標。"],["黃委員國昌：我先跟署長確認一件事，你要說明，我也給你時間說明了，剛剛你說消防弟兄的職業安全標準應該高於一般的職業安全，問題是目前消防法專章規範的密度有比職安法規範的密度高嗎？這是我的問題。"],["蕭署長煥章：跟委員報告，職安法裡面所列的這些項目，相對應我們都列上去，事實上……"],["黃委員國昌：有嗎？是在現在的草案上嗎？還是你未來要規定的指引？"],["蕭署長煥章：相對的方向、大章節，我們都列進去。"],["黃委員國昌：是在法案上嗎？"],["蕭署長煥章：後面的執行措施……"],["黃委員國昌：還是未來要另外定指引？是現在在草案上，還是未來要另定指引？"],["蕭署長煥章：當然，法案絕對不可能全部含括進去。"],["黃委員國昌：所以你要另外定指引，是嗎？"],["蕭署長煥章：後面很多措施……"],["黃委員國昌：我直接給你看，你說消防安全應該要比一般勞工的標準更高，你們要把相關的規定放在草案裡面，人家為什麼要用職安法？因為職安法裡面針對雇主應該遵循的指引是鉅細靡遺的寫，但你們現在所推出來的草案，我先問署長一件事，有吹哨者保護機制嗎？"],["蕭署長煥章：已經列進去了。"],["黃委員國昌：第幾條？"],["蕭署長煥章：第十五條裡面已經有針對吹哨者的機制來做處理。"],["黃委員國昌：你把院版第十五條唸給大家聽。"],["蕭署長煥章：公共危險物品達管制量時，應在製造場所進行處理……"],["黃委員國昌：所以呢？"],["蕭署長煥章：還沒結束，後面的條文，這些場所……"],["黃委員國昌：我現在是說基層申訴違反職安，你說有吹哨者機制在第幾條，第十五條講的是什麼？第十五條講的是有關於公共危險，這個是場所的問題。"],["蕭署長煥章：跟委員報告，公務人員的吹哨應該是回歸到公務人員安衛辦法第二十七條、第二十八條及第三十條。"],["黃委員國昌：所以我剛剛說院版的消防法沒有，我有說錯嗎？"],["蕭署長煥章：我們三個法案同時適用，我們把職安法的精神運用到消防法，這是第一個部分，公務人員保障法也運用過來。"],["黃委員國昌：你說用公務人員安全衛生辦法，是嗎？"],["蕭署長煥章：是。"],["黃委員國昌：依據公務人員安全衛生辦法，基層申訴違反職安，保護吹哨者的法律效果是什麼？沒有啊！"],["蕭署長煥章：就公務人員的保障。"],["黃委員國昌：公務人員安全衛生辦法第三十條，我不是寫在上面給你看嗎？違反對於吹哨者的保護去追殺，接下來的罰則是什麼？有嗎？你說在院版的消防法有，我就跟你講沒有嘛！"],["蕭署長煥章：那個是吹哨者……"],["黃委員國昌：還在這邊公開胡扯！所以我問你消防法第幾條，你講不出來，你胡亂引第十五條，你以為大家不會看法條，第十五條是你想的嗎？你說要回到安衛辦法，就是現在規範保障不足，我請教你，違反吹哨者保障的罰則在哪裡？有寫嗎？你看一下職業安全衛生法有沒有吹哨者保護的條款？有！法律要件、法律效果都有，你們的消防法根本沒有啊！公務人員安全衛生辦法也沒有罰則，你剛剛好意思在這邊講，你們現在提供的保障比安衛辦法還要高！再來，沒有提供必要的安全衛生設備致傷亡要對誰究責？依照你們的版本，這個是職業安全衛生法有的，沒有提供必要的安全衛生設備致傷亡，對誰究責？署長，你怎麼對你們自己研擬這麼久的法案這麼不熟啊！"],["蕭署長煥章：兩個部分，公務人員對於他的員工出問題，涉及到瀆職方面，這個是回歸到公務人員服務法這方面的處理……"],["黃委員國昌：我現在問你的是院版的消防法規範在哪裡？我條文都幫你整理出來了。"],["蕭署長煥章：委員關心的是消防人員出問題的保障，就回歸到那個機制，牽涉到法律的部分會有法律面的處理，感謝。"],["主席：針對委員所提出的問題，請署長事後到委員辦公室報告。"],["黃委員國昌：我這樣說好了，你上面寫的要對誰究責，非常的荒謬，你要處罰誰？中央主管機關、上級機關通知限期改善，沒有改善要處三萬元以上三十萬元以下罰鍰，你要罰的是誰？各級消防機關？中央、地方去罰消防局？這樣有什麼嚇阻的效果？你作為消防署署長，我們等你的法案等了這麼久，你可以不熟到這種程度，還在上面胡扯，讓人嘆為觀止！"],["蕭署長煥章：跟委員報告，是不是給我一點時間，我們會後再跟委員詳細報告，目前是直接用法律面的執行，怎麼用輔導的方式來執行，讓消防能夠走得更穩、更健全，這是我們的處理方向。"],["黃委員國昌：如果不需要法律，只要輔導，現在消防弟兄就不會發出怒吼了！"],["蕭署長煥章：相互搭配，感謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝黃國昌委員的質詢。","下一位請牛煦庭委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":168,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-15-25","speakers":["吳琪銘","黃捷","廖先翔","蘇巧慧","李柏毅","張宏陸","黃建賓","王美惠","張智倫","許宇甄","黃國昌","牛煦庭","蘇清泉","丁學忠","林岱樺","徐欣瑩","范雲","張啓楷","吳宗憲","高金素梅","楊瓊瓔"],"page_start":87,"meetingDate":["2024-06-26"],"gazette_id":"1136501","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1136501_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期內政委員會第25次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、審查委員陳亭妃等17人擬具「消防法部分條文修正草案」案；二、審查委員黃捷等17人擬具\n「消防法部分條文修正草案」案；三、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具「消防法部分條文修正草案」\n案；四、審查委員廖先翔等18人擬具「消防法第十五條、第二十一條之二及第四十三條之一條文\n修正草案」案；五、審查委員吳琪銘等19人擬具「消防法第二十一條之一、第二十一條之二及第\n四十三條之一條文修正草案」案；六、審查台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「消防法第四十三條之一條文修\n正草案」案","agenda_id":"1136501_00003"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":5.61659375,"end":7.574093750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":7.64159375,"end":8.45159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":12.653468750000002,"end":16.82159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":17.26034375,"end":18.12096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":18.711593750000002,"end":21.79971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":21.86721875,"end":24.90471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":25.64721875,"end":27.520343750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":28.094093750000003,"end":32.46471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":33.08909375,"end":35.78909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":36.29534375,"end":40.22721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":40.81784375,"end":42.18471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":42.92721875,"end":46.555343750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKE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,大概是非常多消防弟兄他們期待的,也就是職業安全、衛生、保護的問題。現在在法規上面,消防弟兄把他放在的是跟公務員一樣,二辦法。"},{"start":33.098,"end":44.006,"text":"五、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具、「消防法部分條文修正草案案。五、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具、「消防法部分條文修正草案案。五、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具、「消防法部分條文修正草案案。"},{"start":50.131,"end":62.75,"text":"當然,安慰辦法的修正、強化這個是保訓會跟人事總署必須要面對的問題,但我們先處理消防弟兄關心的事情。"},{"start":63.73,"end":81.713,"text":"過去這個安慰辦法該修沒有修該推動沒有推動大家全部都在踢皮球現在搞到要到消防法裡面去設專章不過目前基層消防員的訴求是全部納入《治安法》當中今天早上"},{"start":82.728,"end":104.383,"text":"今天早上,消防員權益促進會發了一個聲明,他們再次的呼籲,他們不希望用消防法裡面的專章,他們希望全面納入《治安法》。對於我們基層消防弟兄這樣的訴求,部長有什麼回應?因為《治安法》的主管機關並不是內政部,我是不是可以請相關部位來回應一下好嗎?可以。"},{"start":111.115,"end":135.629,"text":"好 署長委員好 我是勞動部職安署有關職安法的部分確實在102年的時候修法的過程當中我們試著要討論要把公務員納入我們職安法可是在102年的時候已經定調就是我們公務員辦法的安全部分你說102年定調嗎是我們那個職安法修法的時候那時候我們是希望102年定調是2013年嗎是是那個時候還是馬政府時期嗎現在新的政府沒有新的思維嗎出了這麼多事情"},{"start":141.108,"end":168.57,"text":"這麼多寶貴的生命寶貴的家庭都破碎了所以我們現在是民進黨政府消歸潮水嗎?2013年的政策到2024年沒有重新檢討的必要嗎?對於消防弟兄希望全面納入治安法來請教署長消防署的署長您是所有消防弟兄的大家長啊所以該幫他們講話的就是你啊贊不贊成?"},{"start":169.4,"end":170.987,"text":"好,各位委員報告,是不是給我一點時間說明?"},{"start":174.804,"end":201.322,"text":"消防的職業安全絕對比勞工的職業安全還高。這我也應該可以來支持這個論點。那消防的職業安全也比一般公務員還高。所以整個盤點以後事實上我們兩個研究案在做處理。一個就是針對於消防到底用什麼法律案來確保我們的安全。所以在去年過去三年已經把美國的消防人員職業安全、日本東京的消防人員職業安全引進到台灣。"},{"start":202.703,"end":212.226,"text":"五、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。六、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。七、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。八、審查委員蔡其昌等21人擬具《消防法部分條文修正草案》案。"},{"start":232.073,"end":247.762,"text":"我先跟署長確認一件事你要說明我也給你時間說明了剛你說我們消防弟兄的職業安全他的標準應該高於一般的職業安全嘛問題是你們目前消防法專章規範的密度有比治安法規範的密度高嗎這是我的問題"},{"start":248.692,"end":277.181,"text":"各位委員報告,治安法裡面所列的這些項目,相對應我們都列上去。有嗎?是在現在的草案上嗎?還是你未來要規定的質疑?相對應的方向,大章節我們都列進去。是在法案上嗎?還是未來你要去另外定質疑?是現在在草案上還是未來要定質疑?當然,法案絕對不可能全部涵括進去。所以你要另外定質疑是嗎?後面很多措施。來啊,我就直接給你看。"},{"start":278.376,"end":302.827,"text":"你說消防安全應該要比一般的勞工標準更高然後你們要把相關的規定放在草案裡面人家在職安法為什麼要用職安法因為職安法裡面針對僱主應該遵循的指引是鉅細靡遺的寫但你們現在所推出來的草案來我先問署長一件事有吹哨子的保護機制嗎已經列進去了第幾條"},{"start":308.604,"end":314.545,"text":"十五條裡面已經有針對吹哨者的機制來做處理。來來來,你把院版十五條唸給大家聽。好,感謝委員。公共危險物品這些大管這兩時,應該製造的場所進行處理。那所以呢?還沒結束。後面應該是在後面的條裡面,這些場所,"},{"start":341.945,"end":368.002,"text":"我現在是說基層申訴違反職啊你說有吹哨的保護機制在第幾條15條講的是什麼15條講的是有關於15條公共危險這個是場所的問題耶跟委員報告公務員保障法這邊這個公務人員的吹哨應該是回到公務人員的安慰辦法27條28條所以嘛是我剛說月版的消防法沒有嘛是"},{"start":368.642,"end":377.385,"text":"三、審查委員黃捷等21人擬具:「消防法部分條文修正草案案。三、審查委員黃捷等21人擬具:「消防法部分條文修正草案案。三、審查委員黃捷等21人擬具:「消防法部分條文修正草案案。"},{"start":394.632,"end":420.743,"text":"公務人員安全衛生辦法30條我不是寫在上面給你看嗎?違反對於吹哨者的保護去追殺他接下來的罰則是什麼?有嗎?你說在院版的消防法有,我就跟你講沒有嘛!還在這邊公開胡扯!所以我問你消防法第幾條你講不出來嘛!你胡亂引15條!你以為大家不會看法條喔?"},{"start":422.202,"end":447.613,"text":"十五條是你講的嗎那你說要回到安慰辦法就現在規範保障不足嘛所以我請教你嘛違反崔少澤保障他的法則在哪裡有寫嗎你看一下職業安全衛生法有沒有崔少澤保護的條款有耶法律要件法律效果都有耶你們的消防法根本沒有啊"},{"start":448.615,"end":474.395,"text":"公務人員安全衛生辦法也沒有罰則你剛剛好意思在這邊講你們現在提供的保障比安慰辦法還要高來再往下沒有提供必要的安全衛生設備智商網要對誰究責依照你們的版本這個是職業安全衛生法有的嘛沒有提供必要的安全衛生設備智商網對誰究責"},{"start":480.547,"end":484.092,"text":"欸署長你怎麼對你們自己研擬這麼久的法案這麼不熟啊?"},{"start":485.161,"end":507.647,"text":"兩部分公務人員對於他的員工出問題涉及到堵職這方面這個是有回歸到公務人員服務法這方面的處理我現在問你的是院版的消防法規範在哪裡我條文都幫你整理出來了委員關心的消防人員出問題的一個保障就回過到這個機制好 針對委員所提出的 署長感謝 社會公務員報告室報告室報告感謝"},{"start":513.388,"end":535.202,"text":"我這樣說好了啦你上面寫的要對誰究責非常的荒謬啊你要處罰誰中央主管機關上級機關通知限期改善沒有改善要處3萬元以上30萬元以下罰款你要罰的是誰各級消防機關喔中央地方去罰消防局喔阿這樣是有什麼嚇阻的效果"},{"start":536.462,"end":564.218,"text":"你作為消防署的署長我等你的法案等這麼久你可以不守到這種程度還在上面胡扯讓人嘆為觀止跟委員報告是不是給我一點時間我們會後再跟委員詳細報告目前是直接用法律面的執行怎麼用輔導的方式來執行讓消防能夠走得更穩更健全如果不需要法律只要輔導現在消防弟兄就不會發出怒吼了啦"},{"start":565.512,"end":566.154,"text":"兩者相互搭配"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}