{"error":false,"id":["154264"],"data":{"IVOD_ID":154264,"IVOD_URL":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154264","日期":"2024-06-26","會議資料":{"會議代碼":"委員會-11-1-19-17","會議代碼:str":"第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第17次全體委員會議","屆":11,"會期":1,"會次":17,"臨時會會次":null,"種類":"委員會","委員會代碼":[19],"委員會代碼:str":["經濟委員會"],"標題":"第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第17次全體委員會議"},"影片種類":"Clip","開始時間":"2024-06-26T10:58:44+08:00","結束時間":"2024-06-26T11:08:21+08:00","影片長度":"00:09:37","支援功能":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/0ea7781078621bd1dfa752f3dfa539cfc258fa09de8d0f303176ac657cb8ac9cf699acf6b854a81e5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳超明","委員發言時間":"10:58:44 - 11:08:21","會議時間":"2024-06-26T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第17次全體委員會議（事由：邀請經濟部部長就「面對國營事業未來10年人力嚴重斷層之因應作為」進行報告，並備質詢。【6月26日及6月27日兩天一次會】）","gazette":{"lineno":695,"blocks":[["陳委員超明：（10時58分）主席好，首先有請連常務次長。"],["主席：我們請連次。"],["陳委員超明：請台電曾董事長。"],["主席：請台電曾董。"],["陳委員超明：曾董，你現在專任台電董事長，以前是政務次長，現在新的常務次長上任了。你在當政務次長時有答應我在後龍好望角觀光地區建能源展示館，也親自會勘好幾次，不過你現在不當政務次長，專責台電董事長，不曉得你有沒有把這個任務交給新次長？這到底還有沒有效？不要人去政息，我相信你講話很有信用。"],["曾董事長文生：跟委員報告，台電部分負擔的費用這一塊我們都清清楚楚會執行，那連次長，基本上我相信次長接這個工作，政務是延續性的……"],["連次長錦漳：這個工作延續下來，我……"],["陳委員超明：你一定要給我延續下去……"],["連次長錦漳：報告委員……"],["陳委員超明：不要給我拍拍屁股就走了喔！我陪你跑了好幾趟，要給我記得。"],["連次長錦漳：不會啦！"],["曾董事長文生：對，我自己都跑了好幾趟。"],["陳委員超明：你曉得我上來就會問你這個問題，對不對？"],["曾董事長文生：我自己就去好幾遍了。"],["陳委員超明：你有清楚了。"],["曾董事長文生：嗯。"],["陳委員超明：那拜託給我交代一下，這件一定要給我完成。"],["連次長錦漳：已經收到了、收到了。"],["陳委員超明：收到了喔！"],["連次長錦漳：嗯。"],["陳委員超明：好，那我今天問得就會比較輕鬆。","你在當次長、台電董事長的時候，你說台電是消波塊，為了抑制通貨膨脹各方面，所以很多都由台電吸收。但最近有一個問題大家在討論，好像禮拜五的報紙登出來說台電虧了一屁股債，現在包括我們的社福、學校，42億電價要由各單位負擔。而你的消波塊做到現在，只有在這樣的情形之下，你說那1,000億的補助下來，調整電價9個月有600億，所以今年還差500億，但是天然氣這邊會協助你跟中油，還有燃煤的採購價格今年會平衡。那幾千億都在花了，這42億你不去做一個台電的功勞，消波塊一下子就消失掉了，你們要把它取消掉，我跟你建議，不然我們如果頭痛，你台電也頭痛。6都的話，你儘量就照那個價、那個現在應該的調整價格；非6都的財政都比較困難，有分等級的，你還叫他們來負擔學校、社福團體！"],["曾董事長文生：沒有啦……"],["陳委員超明：蘇貞昌院長當初在講的時候，班班有冷氣，講得好像學生很快活，現在開始要愁眉苦臉了。我覺得學校、弱勢團體要看狀況來補貼，不要一致性取消，不然會引起的是，民進黨執政選前一套、選後一套，一直說班班有冷氣、班班有電腦，到現在就消風了，我為你們的政黨著想，不要看這樣子喔！我是很善意地提出來。"],["曾董事長文生：跟委員報告……"],["陳委員超明：看你這個要怎麼解決啦！"],["曾董事長文生：應該這樣說，事情是因為那是在電價調整前的討論會議上面做出來的一個決議，狀況就是這個樣子，電價維持一個幅度，針對相對弱勢的要有一定程度補貼的這一件事，政策沒有改變，只是費用部分由這些目的事業主管機關來辦，中央目的事業主管……"],["連次長錦漳：中央、中央……"],["陳委員超明：對，但是到時會很……不要叫地方付錢！"],["曾董事長文生：我說一個最清楚的建議……"],["陳委員超明：好啦！中央就全部付錢啦！補這個洞、這個洞，都一樣的洞啊，消波塊沒有啦！"],["曾董事長文生：報告委員，你剛才有跟我講……"],["陳委員超明：人家對台電以前覺得你們是犧牲的形象，以後沒有喔！你要好好經營。"],["曾董事長文生：沒有啦！報告委員，我這樣講……"],["陳委員超明：我現在是……"],["曾董事長文生：我知道你在提醒什麼事情，但我們會把事情弄清楚。"],["陳委員超明：6都的用電特別多，非6都的用電少，你們的發電廠幾乎都在非6都，你們都保護有錢人，我們鄉下跟那個都沒有保護，改進、改進，檢討！不然以後我們一執行下來，民怨很深，你們這些人就不要當官了，都不曉得這個奧妙在哪裡！我是善意的提醒，你也跟行政院反映一下。"],["曾董事長文生：可是現在其他坐在底下的3位委員都是6都的。"],["陳委員超明：6都有錢啊！它土地的價格那麼高，他們不會講話啦！我很自信，不會講話。非6都的，你不要以為票多的地方你們就常常照顧，票少的地方你們就好好欺負人家。"],["曾董事長文生：沒有啦！委員，哪會……"],["陳委員超明：這樣不合理！"],["曾董事長文生：報告委員，我們大概是這樣子，就是我們會把所有這些……"],["陳委員超明：真的要考量。"],["曾董事長文生：還有您提到的一些關於……也一起考慮，好不好？"],["陳委員超明：不然你就中央編列預算全部補助，至於6都，我跟你講他們錢太多，他們都市規劃變更的話，只要賣出1,000坪大概就夠了，我們要賣出3萬坪還不夠抵電費！這個不能這樣比較，做事情有各種地區不一樣，不要以為你把6都他們弄好就不講話，一定也會講。"],["曾董事長文生：有、有……"],["陳委員超明：尤其非6都的話應該特別注意。"],["曾董事長文生：行政院有編了一筆1,000億，再拜託委員支持。"],["陳委員超明：好好考慮一下，好不好？不然我相信這個問題一定會持續下來，原來這個政府選前就什麼都答應、都好，選後什麼都沒有了。"],["曾董事長文生：沒有，不會這樣。"],["陳委員超明：好不好？感謝你一下。"],["曾董事長文生：好，謝謝委員。"],["陳委員超明：還有剛剛談到人事問題，第一個，這就很久了，剛剛邱志偉委員講到人事彈性，這個很重要，你們銜接的期間，你給3個月訓練這個人、讓他熟悉狀況，以後的意外就比較少。人事總處要特別注意到這個，其實企業裡面人的成本非常重要，你這邊給他訓練一下，然後去銜接的話……"],["連次長錦漳：有，這個現在有在做了。"],["陳委員超明：比較安全，這樣有道理嗎？"],["連次長錦漳：這個現在已經在做了。"],["陳委員超明：不是，你們退了一個才進一個。"],["曾董事長文生：沒有……"],["陳委員超明：不能這樣做！你曉得要退休的時候，就要提早跟人事總處……人事行政是靈活的，不要一板一眼。"],["曾董事長文生：交疊……"],["陳委員超明：這是跳動的時代，好不好？"],["連次長錦漳：好。"],["陳委員超明：再來，我覺得台電、中油、自來水以及台糖廠都是很優秀的人才，薪水有沒有提高？現在都搶人才，不管台電、中油，進去的我都覺得很優秀，以前留下來的傳統，包括自來水公司、台糖，以前比較窮的人沒辦法去留學的都在那邊，在台電、中油工作，包括自來水公司，那時還算穩定，而現在大家都在搶人才！我剛剛講到AI人才，現在是世界都在臺灣搶人才，只要稍微符合基本的話都會納入。因為我們臺灣很偉大，把臺灣的AI人才訓練完成以後都送給日本、美國、歐洲，最後臺灣每天都在找人。因為他們可以印美鈔、自己印，薪水特別高，歐洲的薪水也特別高，大家都往那個地方去，我們的危機在哪裡？大家沒注意，還在洋洋得意什麼世界交流！技術到時候……最後大家掌控，我要獨有的……你們有準備要把……那些人進去，要把他專業的水準再提高一下，不然現在進去，新進人員最高的薪水是三萬九千塊喔？"],["曾董事長文生：四萬多。"],["陳委員超明：多少？"],["曾董事長文生：差不多四萬二，但是當然知道跟科技公司還不見得能比，這個完全……"],["陳委員超明：多少……新進的。"],["曾董事長文生：四萬二。"],["陳委員超明：四萬喔！跟三萬九差不多，你還給我多一千，你也太會計較……你自己……"],["曾董事長文生：沒有，多了差不多一成。"],["陳委員超明：好好就這方面研究一下，好不好？因為水、電油最基本，豬肉也要吃，所以這是民生必需品，要控制得好，是物價的最根源。但最重要的，公司經營好要有人才，人才拉到身邊好好發揮，我相信可以節省很多的……好，謝謝。"],["連次長錦漳：好，謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝陳超明委員、謝謝。剛剛董事長特別強調的1,000億，他已經送到委員會，這個是在財政委員會要審議，是要撥補給台電公司，跟剛剛陳委員所提的他們地方沒錢、沒電的，跟這個是不相關的。","我跟與會人士報告，經濟委員會有史以來不分藍綠白，我們都非常理性地問政，我也希望行政部門就委員所提的，跟剛才邱志偉委員所要的四大公司SWOT部分，請覈實把資料給他們；誠如早上張啓楷委員也希望台電公司……王總也答應在下班前、5時以前給他資料。我們經濟委員會開會，大家都是非常理性在討論，我也希望大家就針對問題回答，因為這裡都有錄音、錄影，錯誤的訊息一旦出去都不好。以上補充，謝謝。","接下來請賴瑞隆委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":234,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-19-17","speakers":["楊瓊瓔","林岱樺","邱議瑩","張啓楷","張嘉郡","鄭正鈐","鄭天財Sra 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邀請經濟部部長就「面對國營事業未來10年人力嚴重斷層之因應作為」進行報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1136701_00004"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":0.03096875,"end":0.70596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":3.1359687500000004,"end":3.60846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":8.654093750000001,"end":9.66659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10.425968750000003,"end":13.26096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":13.716593750000001,"end":16.14659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":13.767218750000001,"end":14.695343750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":16.16346875,"end":16.19721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":16.19721875,"end":16.93971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":22.94721875,"end":23.58846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":23.89221875,"end":24.347843750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":24.75284375,"end":29.74784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":29.96721875,"end":33.25784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":33.56159375,"end":37.20659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":37.24034375,"end":43.095968750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":43.85534375,"end":44.20971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":44.53034375,"end":49.17096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":49.407218750000006,"end":64.51034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":64.57784375,"end":64.61159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":64.61159375,"end":69.35346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":69.48846875000001,"end":82.33034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":79.41096875000001,"end":86.88659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":86.88659375,"end":89.89034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":88.15221875,"end":92.06721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":91.54409375,"end":94.17659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":92.99534375,"end":95.13846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":95.52659375,"end":99.45846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":99.13784375,"end":100.69034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":100.69034375000001,"end":105.02721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":106.56284375000001,"end":111.99659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":112.62096875,"end":115.21971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":115.91159375000001,"end":121.68284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":122.79659375000001,"end":125.49659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":126.18846875000001,"end":127.11659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":127.36971875,"end":146.55659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":147.38346875000002,"end":147.94034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":148.17659375000002,"end":148.24409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":149.40846875,"end":152.85096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":152.96909375,"end":170.14784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":170.48534375,"end":172.45971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":172.88159375,"end":180.23909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":180.61034375,"end":181.43721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":182.04471875000002,"end":183.93471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":184.64346875,"end":187.51221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":188.10284375,"end":190.71846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":191.61284375000002,"end":213.29721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":213.82034375,"end":216.16596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":216.57096875000002,"end":219.38909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":219.84471875000003,"end":220.35096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":220.57034375,"end":221.88659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":222.40971875000002,"end":228.33284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":228.78846875000002,"end":230.69534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":231.16784375,"end":233.80034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":234.20534375000003,"end":237.96846875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":236.85471875000002,"end":237.07409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":237.96846875000003,"end":247.21596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":247.90784375,"end":249.86534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":250.15221875,"end":255.77159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":256.05846875000003,"end":258.77534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":259.97346875,"end":261.72846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":261.98159375,"end":263.31471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":264.14159375,"end":272.30909375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":266.03159375,"end":268.09034375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":268.12409375000004,"end":268.14096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":268.17471875,"end":283.41284375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":276.34221875000003,"end":279.34596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":283.41284375000004,"end":291.66471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":283.75034375,"end":284.07096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":286.29846875000004,"end":286.72034375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":287.39534375,"end":288.64409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":290.29784375,"end":294.90471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":295.64721875000004,"end":317.415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回六度的財政都比較困難 有分等級的 你就叫人來負擔這個學校社會團體 阿你孫政長院長當時在講的時候斑斑有冷氣 喔 講就跟我們那樣 還想要去困我 現在開始要愁眉苦臉了"},{"start":213.88,"end":230.457,"text":"我感覺哈哈若是團體要看狀況來補貼不要一次的取消這個不然會引起民進黨執政選前一套選後一套一直那斑斑有冷氣斑斑有電腦到現在才到這小風雨啊"},{"start":231.238,"end":258.596,"text":"我為你們的政黨著想不要看囉我是為3億的提出來 看你這個要怎麼改變應該是這樣說 就是說事情是因為那個是在就是上電價調整前的一個討論會議上面做出來的一個決議狀況就是這個樣子就是電價維持一個幅度然後針對相對弱勢的要有一定程度的補貼這一件事"},{"start":260.011,"end":284.965,"text":"政策沒有改變只是費用的部分由這些目的事業主管集團來辦中央的目的事業主管集團好我講阿不能叫我地方付錢好啦中央就全部付錢啦阿這個洞補這個洞都一樣的洞阿阿邱博快沒有啦人家對台電覺得以前你們犧牲的形象現在以後沒有你就要給我經營阿我現在是你建議的"},{"start":289.267,"end":317.137,"text":"提醒什麽事情但我會把事情提醒6都的用電特別多非6都的用電少啊你連發電廠幾乎都在非6都那邊你用這樣來都保護好自己人我們的剩下的都沒幫我們補改進改進檢討不然以後我們一直行一洽來明年年初你們這些人就不要當官了都不曉得這奧妙在哪裡我是善意的提醒你也跟行政院反映一下"},{"start":318.407,"end":326.046,"text":"可是現在其他坐在底下的三位委員都是六都的他六都有錢啊他土地的價格那麼高他們不會講話啦"},{"start":327.731,"end":353.901,"text":"我很自信不會講話回六都了你不要以為票多的地方你們就常常照顧票少的地方你就好啊去人手啊那不合理啦報告委員我們大概是這樣子齁就是說我們會把所有這些成本的一些還有您提到的一些關係的考慮好不好六都的時候我跟你講他們錢太多他們都是被挖變工的挖只要賣吃1000瓶大概都夠了"},{"start":354.921,"end":383.075,"text":"我們要賣資3萬瓶還不過來禮頓會阿絕不會這樣逼搞做事情有各種地區不一樣不要以為六都的你以為把他們弄好不講話一定會廢除非六都的話應該特別注意阿好好考慮一下好不好不然的時候我相信這個問題一定會持續下來原來這個政府選前就什麼答應都好選後什麼都沒有了"},{"start":383.868,"end":410.18,"text":"好不好感謝你一下謝謝謝謝委員還有剛剛談到人事問題第一個所以接著顧啊剛剛出席委員有講到人事彈性你這個很重要你們銜接的期間你給什麼各位來訓練這個人給他熟悉狀況以後的意外就比較少人事總之這個要特別注意到其實7月"},{"start":411.499,"end":439.025,"text":"人的成本非常重要你這邊給他信任一下然後去銜接的話事情比較安全一點這樣有道理嗎?現在去做啊 不是你們啊退了一個才進一個 不能這樣做啦臺灣你曉得要退休的時候就要提早跟人事總裁啊人事行政是聯合的啦 不要一板一眼啦這個是跳動的時代好不好"},{"start":440.889,"end":468.522,"text":"再來我覺得臺電、中油、自來水還有茶糖都是很優秀的人才薪水有沒有把它提高現在都搶人才你不管臺電、中油進去的我都覺得很優秀以前留下來的產種包括自來水公司的包括臺糖那幾十幾三千人沒辦法去留學都在臺電這裡、中油這裡吃飯了自來水公司那時候還算穩定"},{"start":469.967,"end":496.454,"text":"你現在大家都在搶人才啊我剛剛有講到AI的人才現在是世界都在我們台灣求人才只要稍微基本的話都會納入裡面啊因為我們台灣很偽詐把台灣的AI人才訓練完了以後都送給日本送給美國送給歐洲台灣還要每天去找人因為他們可以印美鈔可以自己印薪水特別高"},{"start":498.159,"end":498.339,"text":"10萬多人"},{"start":528.137,"end":530.618,"text":"市長市長市長市長市長"},{"start":552.948,"end":552.968,"text":"好 謝謝"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}