{"error":false,"id":["154300"],"data":{"IVOD_ID":154300,"IVOD_URL":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154300","日期":"2024-06-26","會議資料":{"會議代碼":"委員會-11-1-19-17","會議代碼:str":"第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第17次全體委員會議","屆":11,"會期":1,"會次":17,"臨時會會次":null,"種類":"委員會","委員會代碼":[19],"委員會代碼:str":["經濟委員會"],"標題":"第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第17次全體委員會議"},"影片種類":"Clip","開始時間":"2024-06-26T11:55:57+08:00","結束時間":"2024-06-26T12:03:22+08:00","影片長度":"00:07:25","支援功能":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/0ea7781078621bd1ec8c9fde6ece278fc258fa09de8d0f307ffb1ee7a1289101b53d9e6741251f855ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"鍾佳濱","委員發言時間":"11:55:57 - 12:03:22","會議時間":"2024-06-26T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第17次全體委員會議（事由：邀請經濟部部長就「面對國營事業未來10年人力嚴重斷層之因應作為」進行報告，並備質詢。【6月26日及6月27日兩天一次會】）","gazette":{"lineno":1019,"blocks":[["鍾委員佳濱：（11時56分）主席、在場的委員先進、列席的政府機關首長官員、會場工作夥伴、媒體記者源女士先生，有請經濟部連次長和台電曾董事長。"],["主席：好，請以上兩位。"],["連次長錦漳：委員好。"],["曾董事長文生：委員好。"],["鍾委員佳濱：次長好、董事長好，在不久前我們郭部長做了一個描述很傳神，說台積電的良率，次長有沒有聽過？他說台積電的良率像蒸1,000個小籠包，950個都完整沒有破皮的，你有聽到嗎？"],["連次長錦漳：有。"],["鍾委員佳濱：有嘛？那你覺得台積電的良率是多少？95.5%是不是？"],["連次長錦漳：有的應該更高。"],["鍾委員佳濱：有的更高，不良的大概只有0.5%，那同樣的，台電的用戶有多少戶你知道嗎？董事長知道嗎？"],["曾董事長文生：超過1,500萬。"],["鍾委員佳濱：1,500萬戶，用這個良率，我們每天要維持多少戶以上的不斷電才算是優良？1,500萬，董事長你算數比較好。"],["曾董事長文生：你說95%嗎？那就是要小於75萬戶。"],["鍾委員佳濱：少於75萬戶嘛！"],["曾董事長文生：就是停電要少於75萬戶。"],["鍾委員佳濱：請問台電維持每天都這個標準嗎？"],["曾董事長文生：報告委員，我這樣講喔！這個標準有點……我們的標準不敢放那麼低啦！"],["鍾委員佳濱：喔！所以你們可能要99.9%的良率，超越台積電？"],["曾董事長文生：也沒有到那麼高啦！就是我們可能不敢到75萬戶，我們沒有到那麼高……"],["鍾委員佳濱：只要5萬戶，你們就會被釘滿頭包啦！不是小籠包。"],["曾董事長文生：可能也沒有超過5萬戶。"],["鍾委員佳濱：所以我是覺得呢，次長，你們要對我們的國營事業訂出一個類似台積電良率的要求，一般的航空公司有哩程事故率，多少萬哩程才出一個事故，多少萬的供電戶我們才多久時間發生一個電力事故，把這個定給台電，讓他來好好表現好不好，可以嗎？"],["曾董事長文生：好，謝謝。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，可以，董事長可以接受。","我來問一下，今天的題目是退休潮啦！說到出現斷層，有這個情況嗎？有沒有？"],["曾董事長文生：跟委員報告……"],["鍾委員佳濱：我是問次長，有沒有？你國營事業？"],["連次長錦漳：現在退休潮已經慢慢開始穩住了，最高峰的時候已經過了。"],["鍾委員佳濱：但是我要跟你強調，我關心的不是台電或中油，我關心的是這一個，來請看下一頁，你知道我們屏東縣的自來水普及率多少嗎？我們董事長可以幫忙一下，有沒有達到八成？次長知不知道？"],["連次長錦漳：沒有。"],["鍾委員佳濱：沒有，來請問李董事長。"],["李董事長嘉榮：是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：請問你覺得屏東縣的自來水普及率，好不容易才從不到六成提升到快七成，主要問題是人力不足還是預算不夠？"],["李董事長嘉榮：跟委員報告，其實也不是從不到六成，應該更早。"],["鍾委員佳濱：從不到五成，我知道。"],["李董事長嘉榮：106年是不到五成，現在已經突破七成。"],["鍾委員佳濱：是，問題全國的平均好像92%嘛！"],["李董事長嘉榮：94.9%。"],["鍾委員佳濱：你的問題是出在預算不夠還是人力不足？"],["李董事長嘉榮：這個應該不是人力不足。"],["鍾委員佳濱：不是人力不足，但是我問過主計長，前任主計長跟現任主計長，他們說你們能做多少，我統統編給你，過去前瞻幾期是不是得到全力的支持？"],["李董事長嘉榮：這個因為……"],["鍾委員佳濱：預算是不是得到支持？"],["李董事長嘉榮：我們從前瞻計畫裡面有一個……"],["鍾委員佳濱：你直接簡單的講，因為時間有限，有沒有全力支持你的預算？"],["李董事長嘉榮：這個預算是從……"],["鍾委員佳濱：經濟部水利署都來了，全力支持嘛！"],["李董事長嘉榮：計畫是水利署……"],["鍾委員佳濱：董事長你知道嘛？全力支持。"],["李董事長嘉榮：對。"],["鍾委員佳濱：但是為什麼明年的只給20億，你知道嗎？因為主計總處說，你們水公司最多只能做到19億。次長，你了解問題了沒有？關於水公司目前的量能，我們給他再多的預算，他沒辦法執行發包完成，是不是人力太少？"],["李董事長嘉榮：跟委員報告，應該不止19億，因為我們屏東區處……"],["鍾委員佳濱：你們不止19億？"],["李董事長嘉榮：對。我們還有一些汰換管線工程……"],["鍾委員佳濱：所以你們大概可以做到多少？"],["李董事長嘉榮：我們屏東區處一年大概二、三十億，還有我們一個工程處……"],["鍾委員佳濱：你確定？"],["李董事長嘉榮：對。"],["鍾委員佳濱：屏東區處可以做到30億？"],["李董事長嘉榮：包括工程處的一些工程。"],["鍾委員佳濱：那我就去跟主計長要求要給我們30億，加強屏東市自來水的普及，可不可以？你保證喔？次長，他答應囉！確定接得下來，我就去要錢喔！"],["連次長錦漳：委員，我們已經送了一個800億的計畫在行政院……"],["鍾委員佳濱：是什麼？其中多少是屏東縣自來水普及？"],["李董事長嘉榮：因為普及率的提升，我們是積極在辦理……"],["鍾委員佳濱：你們在占我的時間。","其實過去在111年編了20.5億、112年編了17億、113年編了15億，為什麼？因為這個是關於延管工程。還有一個叫做簡易自來水，我知道你們明年度的簡易自來水在原住民地區有保住，但是非原住民地區是不是刪掉了？次長，是不是這樣？是因為什麼原因？錢不夠？還是人力不夠？次長直接回答，你如果說錢不夠，我就去爭取。"],["連次長錦漳：這個是水利署，不是自來水公司，簡易自來水的部分……"],["鍾委員佳濱：我知道，我知道簡易自來水是水利署負責，但你是次長，問你也剛好而已啊！是人不夠，還是錢不夠？"],["連次長錦漳：應該是發包的人力不夠。"],["鍾委員佳濱：是嘛！是人不夠。好，我跟你講，其實你們的人力要加強，曾董事長可以先請回，我要留下李董事長要誇獎他。","目前國營事業要滿足國內的基礎建設，其實自來水工程有它的優勢，你們目前的管線是世界最長，有6萬公里；供水人口最多，超過1,800萬人口；還有單一的輸水網，你們有這些優勢，次長，你知道嗎？"],["連次長錦漳：知道。"],["鍾委員佳濱：董事長也跟他講了，對不對？"],["李董事長嘉榮：對。"],["鍾委員佳濱：過去這四十年來，你們在水質污染處理問題上有薄膜技術，你們在極端氣候旱澇不均的情況下還有辦法提供水質、水量的穩定，是不是你們一度要去協助一個國家的自來水工程？有沒有？"],["李董事長嘉榮：有，這個之前有要協助新南向……"],["鍾委員佳濱：哪一個國家？"],["李董事長嘉榮：印尼。"],["鍾委員佳濱：印尼我常去，印尼真的需要協助。次長，我要告訴你，如果你們擔心水公司這幾年擴充人力，待國內自來水普及提升之後這些人力沒處去，我告訴你，叫做ODA──政府開發援助，在中國叫作一帶一路，但是在臺灣，我們的國營事業工程品質優良超過中國，臺灣政府的信用超過中國，它什麼意思？臺灣政府提供貸款給對手國，對手國把這個貸款用來雇請臺灣的營建工程商幫他們做基礎建設、公共設施，錢都不會到外國政府口袋，統統都回到臺灣的承包商，知道這個ODA吧？"],["連次長錦漳：嗯！"],["鍾委員佳濱：好。最後就是我們國內的基礎建設，如果國營事業行有餘力，完成之後這些充實的人力，不是閒置人力，而是這些優質人力可以用來協助政府做ODA，你支不支持？次長，支不支持？"],["連次長錦漳：支持。"],["鍾委員佳濱：支持，好，所以回去告訴你們部裡面的長官，水公司的人力多支持一下，預算我來幫你爭取，好不好？"],["連次長錦漳：好。"],["李董事長嘉榮：好。"],["鍾委員佳濱：如果以後有這個量能幫其他的國家、友邦國家興建他們的基礎建設，用ODA的方式好不好？"],["連次長錦漳：好。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，謝謝，謝謝主席。"],["主席：謝謝。主計總處要告訴他不要亂講話，數字差那麼多。謝謝。","接下來我們請何欣純委員、何欣純、何欣純委員。","主席台宣布：登記發言的委員除了不在場之外，其餘都已經發言完畢，詢答結束。","有委員謝衣鳯委員、楊瓊瓔委員、林俊憲委員所提書面質詢，列入紀錄，刊登公報。書面質詢以及未及答復部分，請相關單位於一週之內以書面答復，並副知本會。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":234,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-19-17","speakers":["楊瓊瓔","林岱樺","邱議瑩","張啓楷","張嘉郡","鄭正鈐","鄭天財Sra 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邀請經濟部部長就「面對國營事業未來10年人力嚴重斷層之因應作為」進行報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1136701_00004"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":0.03096875,"end":2.15721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10.99971875,"end":12.72096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":13.294718750000001,"end":14.72909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":15.657218750000002,"end":17.766593750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":18.20534375,"end":21.512843750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":21.86721875,"end":22.99784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":28.566593750000003,"end":30.675968750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":30.86159375,"end":36.869093750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":37.493468750000005,"end":40.784093750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":41.13846875,"end":44.41221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":45.01971875,"end":47.65221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":45.49221875,"end":45.59346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":48.07409375,"end":49.710968750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":50.21721875,"end":51.415343750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":51.48284375,"end":53.625968750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":53.625968750000006,"end":53.963468750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":54.13221875,"end":57.304718750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":57.82784375000001,"end":58.53659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":59.549093750000004,"end":60.595343750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":60.73034375,"end":62.62034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":63.37971875,"end":67.78409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":68.71221875,"end":69.70784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":70.68659375,"end":71.96909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":71.96909375,"end":82.43159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":72.77909375,"end":74.82096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":76.47471875000001,"end":77.67284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":80.49096875000001,"end":80.71034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":81.55409375,"end":82.34721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":82.43159375,"end":82.78596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":82.78596875000001,"end":82.83659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":82.83659375,"end":82.88721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":82.88721875,"end":82.90409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":82.90409375,"end":82.92096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":82.92096875,"end":82.97159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":82.97159375000001,"end":83.03909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":83.03909375,"end":84.00096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":85.72221875000001,"end":104.18346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":98.91846875,"end":100.50471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":100.96034375,"end":101.04471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":101.07846875000001,"end":104.11596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":104.48721875000001,"end":105.46596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":105.92159375,"end":106.54596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":107.00159375000001,"end":110.69721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":111.42284375000001,"end":113.83596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":114.05534375,"end":115.94534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":116.48534375000001,"end":119.45534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":119.59034375,"end":119.89409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":119.70846875000001,"end":119.77596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":119.89409375000001,"end":119.97846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":119.97846875,"end":120.72096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":121.05846875,"end":123.52221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":123.79221875,"end":124.24784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":125.46284375,"end":127.03221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":127.25159375000001,"end":128.98971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":129.24284375000002,"end":131.06534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":131.80784375000002,"end":132.24659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":132.71909375,"end":135.33471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":135.58784375000002,"end":145.52721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":139.01346875000002,"end":142.00034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":142.01721875,"end":142.03409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":145.84784375,"end":147.95721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":148.19346875000002,"end":149.59409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":149.88096875000002,"end":150.85971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":150.94409375,"end":151.77096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":152.02409375000002,"end":153.59346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":152.61471875,"end":153.10409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":153.42471875,"end":154.84221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":155.09534375,"end":155.46659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":155.44971875000002,"end":158.13284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":157.89659375000002,"end":158.47034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":158.47034375,"end":161.52471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_0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董事長好在不久前我們郭部長做了一個描述很傳神說台積電的良率市長有沒有聽過他說台積電的良率像增1000個小籠包950個都完整沒有破皮的你有聽到嗎"},{"start":45.526,"end":67.601,"text":"有齁,那你覺得台積電的良率多少?95.5%是不是?他有的應該更高有的更高,不良的大概只有0.5%好,那同樣的台電的用戶有多少戶你知道嗎?董事長知道嗎?超過1500萬1500萬戶用這個良率用這個良率我們每天要維持多少戶以上的不斷電才算是優良1500萬"},{"start":70.728,"end":76.591,"text":"董事長你算數比較好你說95%的良率那就是要小於75萬戶少於75萬戶嘛就是停電要少於75萬那請問台電維持每天都是標準嗎"},{"start":85.822,"end":87.484,"text":"市長,你們要對我們的國營事業訂出一個類似台積電良率的要求"},{"start":111.448,"end":130.296,"text":"一般的航空公司有里程事故率多少萬里程才出一個事故多少萬的供電戶我們才多久時間發生一個電力事故把這個訂給台電讓他來好好表現好不好可以嗎好可以總統可以接受好來我來問一下今天是退休潮啦說要出現斷層有這個情況嗎有沒有"},{"start":133.179,"end":133.44,"text":"請問董事長李董事長"},{"start":155.923,"end":173.811,"text":"請問你覺得平東縣的政策處理率好不容易才從不到6層提升到快7層主要問題是人力不足還是預算不夠跟委員報告其實也不是從不到6層的應該更早106年是不到5層那現在已經突破7層那你覺得問題全國的平均是好像92%嘛94.9%問題是說它預算不夠還是人力不足"},{"start":186.715,"end":198.69,"text":"這個應該不是人力不足啊不是人力不足但是我問過主計長前任主計長跟前任主計長他說有你們能做多少我通通編給你過去前章幾期是不是得到權力的支持這個因為"},{"start":201.197,"end":220.811,"text":"我們從前章計畫裡面有一個你直接簡單的講因為時間有限有沒有權力支持你的預算這個預算是從計畫是水利署都來了權力支持嘛權力支持但是為什麼今年明年的資格21你知道嗎因為主計總是說你們最多水公司只能做到19億啊"},{"start":222.475,"end":230.215,"text":"市長你要了解問題了沒有?水公司目前的量能我們給他再多的預算他沒辦法執行發報完成阿是不是人力太少?"},{"start":231.291,"end":258.488,"text":"跟委員報告齁應該不只19億啦因為本身我們平東7處不只19億對我們還有一些管線開放的管線工程所以你們大概可以做到多少我們一個7處平東7處啦齁一年大概二三十億還有我們一個工程處對包括工程處包括工程處那我就去跟主席長要求要給我們30億加強平東市自來水的普及可不可以"},{"start":259.048,"end":264.333,"text":"你保證喔!市長!他答應喔!我們已經送了一個800億的企劃喔!是甚麼企劃?多少是屏東縣的自來水普及?其實過去喔!111年是編了20.5億、112年編了17億、113年編了15億。為什麼?"},{"start":287.096,"end":315.146,"text":"因為其實呢這個是關於鹽管工程還有一個叫做檢疫自來水我知道你們去明年度的檢疫自來水原住民地區有保留有留下來有保住但是非原住民地區是不是刪掉了?市長是不是這樣?市長因為什麼原因?錢不夠還是人力不夠?市長直接回答你如果說錢不夠我就去爭取這個這個是水利不是自來水檢疫的是我知道檢疫是水利署你是市長啊問你他剛好而已啊"},{"start":316.237,"end":316.397,"text":"市長你知道嗎?"},{"start":316.397,"end":316.457,"text":"知道"},{"start":345.069,"end":371.667,"text":"知道嗎?董事長也跟他講了,對不對?是不是過去下一頁,你們過去曾經這40年來你們的水質的污染處理問題有薄膜技術你們在極端氣候旱老不均的情況上有沒有辦法去提供水質水量的穩定?是不是你們一度要去一個國家去協助他們制裁者工程,有沒有?有,有,這個之前有要協助新南向哪一個國家?印尼印尼我常去,印尼真的需要協助"},{"start":372.748,"end":393.282,"text":"市長我要告訴你如果你們擔心水公司這幾年擴充人力國內的自來水普及提升之後這些人力沒出去我告訴你叫做ODA叫做政府開發援助在中國叫做一帶一路但在台灣我們的國營事業的工程品的優良超過中國台灣這種信用超過中國他什麼意思"},{"start":393.982,"end":423.445,"text":"台灣的政府提供貸款給對手國對手國把這個貸款用來僱請台灣的營建工程商幫他們做基礎建設、公共設施錢都不會到外國政府口袋通通都回到台灣的承包商知道這個ODA嗎?好知道下一頁所以最後呢就這樣我們國內的基礎建設如果國營事業行有一律完成之後這些充實的人力可以用來不是閒置人力這些優質的人力可以用來協助政府做ODA你知不支持?市長知不支持?"},{"start":424.829,"end":426.091,"text":"主席總書要告訴他不要亂"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}