{"error":false,"id":["154338"],"data":{"IVOD_ID":154338,"IVOD_URL":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154338","日期":"2024-06-27","會議資料":{"會議代碼":"委員會-11-1-19-17","會議代碼:str":"第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第17次全體委員會議","屆":11,"會期":1,"會次":17,"臨時會會次":null,"種類":"委員會","委員會代碼":[19],"委員會代碼:str":["經濟委員會"],"標題":"第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第17次全體委員會議"},"影片種類":"Clip","開始時間":"2024-06-27T09:32:26+08:00","結束時間":"2024-06-27T09:45:10+08:00","影片長度":"00:12:44","支援功能":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/767b6a9d27b3726c81543d5d627c048821a3f23b3ad13ea21377aa0ad8b68879710c6b9019e726cd5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"黃國昌","委員發言時間":"09:32:26 - 09:45:10","會議時間":"2024-06-27T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第17次全體委員會議（事由：邀請農業部部長就「農業移工政策改善措施」進行報告，並備質詢。【6月26日及6月27日兩天一次會】）","gazette":{"lineno":111,"blocks":[["黃委員國昌：（9時32分）主席，麻煩有請部長。"],["主席：再請陳部長。"],["陳部長駿季：委員好。"],["黃委員國昌：部長好。上一次你們回函說，超思的案子已經移送北檢了，請問什麼時候移送的？"],["陳部長駿季：我如果沒有記錯的話，是5月底、6月初的時候。"],["黃委員國昌：5月底、6月初的時候？"],["陳部長駿季：我記得是這樣，如果我沒有記錯的話。"],["黃委員國昌：行政調查報告什麼時候做出來的？"],["陳部長駿季：行政調查報告的過程大概在5月……5月初，5月大概第……"],["黃委員國昌：是4月還是5月？"],["陳部長駿季：我們在調查，因為它的調查……"],["黃委員國昌：沒有關係，什麼時候做好的？"],["陳部長駿季：沒有，最後的定版大概在5月的應該是7號前後。"],["黃委員國昌：所以你們有一個定版完整的行政調查報告嗎？"],["陳部長駿季：對，就是說我必須要跟委員講……"],["黃委員國昌：好，定版的行政調查報告什麼時候可以交出來？"],["陳部長駿季：對不起，我沒有聽清楚。"],["黃委員國昌：剛剛你不是說到5月的時候，有一個定版的行政調查報告嗎？"],["陳部長駿季：是。"],["黃委員國昌：那份行政調查報告，什麼時候可以交出來？"],["陳部長駿季：我們提供給委員的就是行政調查報告，但是因為部分……"],["黃委員國昌：是全文嗎？"],["陳部長駿季：沒有，部分的資訊我們已經移請地檢署調查的時候……"],["黃委員國昌：我們把時序先講清楚，你行政調查報告完整做完以後，然後你接下來移送北檢，現在交出來的行政調查報告只有部分的內容，對不對？"],["陳部長駿季：是。"],["黃委員國昌：為什麼不提供完整的行政調查報告？你說會涉及到偵查不公開，然後我秀給你看，當初在處理88會館事件的時候，一樣有刑事偵辦，我們的高檢署、新北地檢署、內政部警政署完整的行政調查報告全部都交出來，為什麼農業部的作法不一樣？難道我們的高檢署、地檢署，我們的內政部所交出來的行政調查報告都是違法的？你還是堅持不交就對了嘛？"],["陳部長駿季：我跟委員報告，別的部會我不清楚，但是在我們的行政調查報告裡面，有涉及到相關的已經移交給地檢署的部分，這部分我們是根據政府公開資訊法裡面的相關規定去做處理的。"],["黃委員國昌：沒關係，你有你的主張，你的主張站不站得住腳，我們以後會繼續追下去，今天時間的關係，我還有很多問題要問。你們的次長跟媒體說，日本進口的雞蛋沒有行政的問題，結果話才講完一天，你們就公開承認，裡面最起碼就有關於倉儲的部分、運輸的部分違反了政府採購法，對不對？"],["陳部長駿季：針對倉儲跟運輸的部分，他是應該進行那個……"],["黃委員國昌：所以是不是違反政府採購法？"],["陳部長駿季：對，是違反政府採購法。"],["黃委員國昌：錢你會追50%回來嘛？"],["陳部長駿季：對，錢會追回來。"],["黃委員國昌：好。針對2022年超思進口雞蛋，超思的服務費付了多少錢？"],["陳部長駿季：111年嗎？"],["黃委員國昌：對，2022年。"],["陳部長駿季：111年並沒有服務費的部分。"],["黃委員國昌：沒有服務費的部分？所以超思……"],["陳部長駿季：有合約的時候才有服務費，沒有合約的話，是用到貨買斷的方式去處理。"],["黃委員國昌：到貨買斷的價格怎麼計算？"],["陳部長駿季：到貨買斷的價格，根據畜產會的說明，因為每個月都有的時候，他會根據當月日本的相關資訊跟我們國內的相關資訊，包括它的關稅等等去做一個綜合評估。"],["黃委員國昌：怎麼評估的，數據可不可以交出來？"],["陳部長駿季：我想這部分是一個相關的執行細節，他那個評估……"],["黃委員國昌：沒有關係，你現在講沒有付超思任何服務費，那我現在的問題就在想說，原來超思是在做功德的，那個價格裡面，超思從日本進來一公斤均價多少錢？一公斤均價多少錢？"],["陳部長駿季：我不是非常清楚。"],["黃委員國昌：來，計算完以後，一公斤的均價大概124塊，124塊這個價格到底怎麼出來的，它的成本結構細項可不可以交出來？"],["陳部長駿季：我不是非常清楚這個最後價格的細項，因為他們本身是買斷的方式，那買斷的方式，他們的經費是有一個……"],["黃委員國昌：你看，你們列出來的淨重多少，發票的價格多少，除完了大概就是一公斤多少錢。你現在講說裡面沒有服務費，那現在我就在質疑，現在大家在問的是超思的利潤，就是在一公斤124塊裡面超思拿了多少錢，這個也不能問？"],["陳部長駿季：關於這部分，我可以跟委員說明，我們可以提供我們付給相關的每一批蛋，不管是任何的貿易商，我們都會給他一筆經費，有經費的部分，該付多少錢，我們是根據……"],["黃委員國昌：大家在關心的事情是，那個價格到底怎麼決定的嘛！你到現在，我跟你說，你既然沒有服務費……"],["陳部長駿季：它的價格不是一個公式，那個價格絕對不是一個很硬邦邦的公式，如果說有一個硬邦邦的公式，那就可以……"],["黃委員國昌：沒有關係，那你總要有一個決定價格的機制吧？"],["陳部長駿季：有，有一個機制，我跟你講，這個機制是可以提供的……"],["黃委員國昌：好，那決定價格的機制內容，可不可以提供？還是也涉及偵查不公開，也不能提供？"],["陳部長駿季：就我所瞭解，決定的機制是可以提供，一定有一個決定的機制，但是決定的細節……"],["黃委員國昌：好，決定的機制可以提供，需要多久？"],["陳部長駿季：決定的細節……"],["黃委員國昌：需要多久？"],["陳部長駿季：這個我要問畜產會。"],["黃委員國昌：需要多久？一個禮拜可以吧？"],["陳部長駿季：應該可以。"],["黃委員國昌：錢早就付了嘛。"],["陳部長駿季：是。"],["黃委員國昌：因為你一開始口口聲聲跟大家講說，只有超思有能力進口，這個是你當初在回答的時候答復的內容，然後你說是日本……"],["陳部長駿季：我記得我沒有說只有超思才有能力進口，我沒有這樣說……"],["黃委員國昌：來來來來來來來，來來來，這是你說的，「關於超思，如果你去問其他的蛋商，沒有一個人不認識他，過往本身有他的一個能力」，你回答給我的是說，沒有其他的貿易商有意願進口，這個是你們白紙黑字寫的內容欸！沒有其他的貿易商有能力進口，這是你們講的欸！這是你們白紙黑字回答給我的欸！"],["陳部長駿季：我們說的是「意願」的部分，「意願」，那不是「能力」。"],["黃委員國昌：來，我們來看一下，這個是從關務署調出來的資料，2022年有從日本進口雞蛋的A廠商、B廠商、C廠商、D廠商、其他廠商2家，最後兩家廠商關務署說因為太敏感了，有間接識別的風險，所以要混在一起合併提供，要不然看得出來，我知道他在講最後兩家廠商，其中有一家非常敏感的就是超思。來，看一下B廠商，從3月就有進，4月就有進，你們跟亮采之間的合約是不是2月到4月之間，是吧？"],["陳部長駿季：是。"],["黃委員國昌：那奇怪了，那亮采後面進來的這些蛋到哪裡去了？是給中央畜產會嗎？"],["陳部長駿季：我跟委員說明，亮采的部分，它的合約是2到4月，那4月以後的所有買的蛋，不管是任何貿易商進來的，都是用貨到付款的方式，這個非常清楚。"],["黃委員國昌：對，所以我現在還是在問你，當初你跟大家講的是只有超思有意願，但我從關務署調出來的資料看到，從這個B廠商進口的數量，我合理判斷，這個B廠商……"],["陳部長駿季：我跟委員說明，不能用合理的判斷，因為B廠商……C廠商，任何的那麼多廠商，他不一定會願意跟畜產會合作，他可能……自己的管道……"],["黃委員國昌：我們來看一下具體的數量，因為主席站起來了，最後我只問一個最關鍵的問題，輸入許可由亮采取得，你們最後付錢給超思的總共有多少？這個數量你不可能不知道吧？輸入許可是亮采的，付錢給超思的有多少？"],["陳部長駿季：這個絕對有資料，但是我沒辦法記那麼多正確的數字。"],["黃委員國昌：所以這個數字什麼時候可以提供？"],["陳部長駿季：這應該可以提供，這沒問題啊！因為有發票，每一筆都可以提供。"],["黃委員國昌：對啊！到目前為止，你說每一筆都可以提供，我給部長看，我從6月14日索資的東西到現在還沒回復，我的辦公室幾乎是每天打電話去求農業部，什麼時候可以回復？答案永遠都是還在簽核、還在簽核、還在簽核。今天部長說可以提供，非常好！請問部長需要多久？不要讓我辦公室的同仁每天打電話去拜託你們的國會聯絡人，要一個資料我好像在乞討一樣！需要多久？"],["陳部長駿季：我跟委員說明，就是每一筆我們付款資料的日期應該都已經很清楚，這個表單應該都有，我回去趕快去瞭解。"],["黃委員國昌：我剛剛的問題是，由超思取得輸入許可，我跟你們調檢驗所的輸入許可，局裡面的人說好了，但是在部裡面簽核，現在公文流浪到哪裡我不知道！我今天請教，我非常卑微地要求你、非常卑微地請求你，這個數字什麼時候可以提供？"],["陳部長駿季：我想我不敢，因為我非常尊重立法委員……"],["黃委員國昌：所以這個什麼時候可以提供？"],["陳部長駿季：我覺得立法委員的索資是問政需求，我們一定會提供。"],["黃委員國昌：什麼時候可以提供？"],["陳部長駿季：我們提供的一定就是，我們的發票拿到以後……"],["黃委員國昌：什麼時候可以提供？由亮采取得的輸入許可，付錢給超思的有多少？"],["陳部長駿季：這兩個……"],["主席：這樣子好不好？因為時間的關係……"],["陳部長駿季：這樣的話，跟你剛才問的索資是不一樣的，一般索資的是……"],["主席：部長，由於時間，後面的委員都在等待。"],["陳部長駿季：你索資的是超思本身的進口部分嘛！"],["主席：部長，是不是就剛剛黃國昌委員所需要的資料，你就在一個禮拜之內提供給黃國昌委員？"],["陳部長駿季：我想我們要先釐清一下索資的內容……超思……"],["黃委員國昌：索資的內容很簡單，雞蛋進來要不要輸入許可？"],["陳部長駿季：因為我們是買斷，是針對誰給我們的……"],["黃委員國昌：雞蛋進來要不要輸入許可？"],["陳部長駿季：是要輸入許可。"],["黃委員國昌：好，請你把輸入許可都交出來，我看輸入許可上面的名義是誰就知道了。"],["陳部長駿季：我跟委員說明，我們不是用合約的方式，我們是用買斷的方式，然後重點……"],["黃委員國昌：這個你已經說過了。"],["陳部長駿季：對……"],["黃委員國昌：請你回到問題本身……"],["陳部長駿季：對，所以我本身，我不知道……"],["黃委員國昌：輸入許可不可以提供？"],["陳部長駿季：我不知道我買蛋的時候需不需要他檢附輸入許可是一個要件，但是我付錢的資訊一定有。"],["黃委員國昌：輸入許可是誰發的？"],["陳部長駿季：關務署發的啊！還是誰發的？"],["黃委員國昌：不是，雞蛋輸入檢疫的許可是你們農業部發的耶！"],["陳部長駿季：檢疫的許可是我們。"],["黃委員國昌：可不可以提供？"],["陳部長駿季：檢疫的部分，如果是有的話，我們就應該可以提供。"],["黃委員國昌：需要多久？因為到目前為止，我索資到現在還要不到！"],["陳部長駿季：一個禮拜。"],["黃委員國昌：需要多久？這個也需要一個禮拜？我早就發公文去要了耶！"],["陳部長駿季：他們說已經簽出署裡面了。如果簽出署裡面了就應該比較快。"],["黃委員國昌：所以我剛剛沒有講錯！我早就要了嘛！你公文還在旅行嘛！需要多久？"],["主席：我們還是針對問題，請農業部就剛剛委員所提出，他要的資料有兩項，提供你的……"],["黃委員國昌：不只，我剛剛只是藉由詢答，那個索資的部分，他們那邊都有公文，我要的資訊一項、一項、一項、一項，我寫得非常地清楚，全部在後面，我亮給召委看，這個是6月14日索資的內容；這個是6月19日索資的內容，包括你剛剛答應的輸入許可、簡易的輸入許可那件事情，需要多久？三天之內給，好不好？"],["陳部長駿季：它如果出來，三天之內一定可以給。"],["黃委員國昌：三天之內可以給嘛？"],["陳部長駿季：簡易證的部分嘛？"],["黃委員國昌：前面索資的部分也一併三天之內給，可以嗎？如果我問的問題，你說：我不知道，我沒有資訊，這是機密。那你就這樣回復就好了嘛！"],["主席：索資部分，剛剛最後一點，就是三天內回復給黃委員，其他的部分請一個禮拜之內務必要給黃委員，好不好？因為他從6月14、19日已經陸續請你們提供資料。"],["陳部長駿季：瞭解、瞭解。"],["主席：好不好？"],["黃委員國昌：這樣可以嗎？"],["主席：好，謝謝。"],["陳部長駿季：瞭解。我還是一句話，就是我們相關的資訊如果涉及到提供給檢調單位，依法不能提供的時候，我們不會提供，其他的我們會提供。"],["主席：好，謝謝。"],["黃委員國昌：沒關係啊！你到時候回復的時候寫說基於偵查不公開，不提供。"],["主席：好，謝謝。"],["陳部長駿季：我們會備註。"],["主席：好，謝謝。我們也請農業部照剛剛所說、約定的時間，請把資料送出，謝謝。","接下來請鄭正鈐委員做詢答。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":302,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-19-17","speakers":["楊瓊瓔","林岱樺","邱議瑩","黃國昌","鄭正鈐","鄭天財Sra 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細項可不可以交出來"},{"start":258.868,"end":278.442,"text":"我不是非常清楚說這樣子一個最後的價格的一個細項因為他們本身是買斷的方式那買斷的方式他們的經費是有一個你看嘛 你們列出來的淨重多少發票的價格多少除完了大概就一公斤多少錢嘛你現在裡面講說沒有服務費嘛"},{"start":280.884,"end":288.825,"text":"現在我就在質疑啊現在大家在問的是這個超市的利潤在裡面一公斤124塊超市拿了多少錢嘛"},{"start":292.853,"end":310.765,"text":"我可以跟委員說明我們可以提供就是我們付給相關的每一批蛋不管是任何的貿易商我們都會給他一筆經費有經費的部分這個是那這個該付多少錢大家在關心的事情是那個價格到底怎麼決定的嘛"},{"start":311.525,"end":316.667,"text":"你到現在我跟你說你說沒有服務費沒有關係啊那你總要有一個決定價格的機制吧有一個機制我想這個機制是可以提供的我所瞭解"},{"start":333.94,"end":340.625,"text":"決定的機制是可以提供,一定有一個決定的機制,但是決定的細節需要多久?需要多久?一個禮拜可以吧?錢早就付了吧?因為你一開始口口聲聲跟大家講說只有超輸有能力進口嘛"},{"start":356.375,"end":383.635,"text":"這個是你當初在回答的時候答覆的內容嘛然後你說是非凡我記得我說只有超私才有能力進口來來來來來來來來如果超私如果你去跟其他的淡商沒有一個人不認識他過往本身有他的一個能力你回答給我的說沒有其他的貿易商有意願進口這個是你們白紙黑字寫的內容欸沒有其他的貿易商有能力進口欸這是你們講的欸"},{"start":386.024,"end":390.472,"text":"這是你們回答給我白紙黑字的欸來我們來看一下喔這個是關務署調出來的資料"},{"start":395.418,"end":421.061,"text":"2022年有從日本進口雞蛋的A廠商、B廠商、C廠商、D廠商最後兩家廠商他因為說啊太敏感了所以要混在一起要不然看得出來我知道啦他在講最後兩家廠商其中有一家非常敏感的就是超市來看一下B廠商從3月就有進4月就有進你們跟亮采之間的合約是不是2月到4月之間是吧是"},{"start":422.481,"end":442.416,"text":"奇怪,那亮彩後面進來的這些蛋到哪裡去了?是給中央續產會嗎?我跟委員說明齁亮彩的部分是他的合約是2到4月那4月以後的所有的買蛋不管是任何貿易商進來的都是用貨到付款的方式這個非常清楚啊對,所以我現在還是在問你嘛當初你跟大家講的"},{"start":443.686,"end":453.512,"text":"是只有昌司有意願嘛但我從關務署調出來的看從這個B廠商進口的數量我合理判斷啊這個B廠商這個B廠商是我們來看一下具體的數量嘛我最後因為主席站起來了我只問一個最關鍵的問題"},{"start":469.637,"end":483.72,"text":"輸入許可由量財取得,你們最後錢付給超市的總共有多少?這個數量你不可能不知道吧?輸入許可是量財的,錢付給超市的多少?所以這個數字什麼時候可以提供?對啊,到目前為止你說每一筆都可以提供,來來來"},{"start":496.823,"end":523.375,"text":"我給部長看我從6月14日所知的東西到現在沒回覆我的辦公室幾乎是打電話每天去求農業部的什麼時候可以回覆永遠的答案都是還在簽和還在簽和還在簽和今天部長說可以提供非常的好請問部長需要多久不要讓我辦公室的同仁每天打電話去拜託你們的國會聯絡人要一個資料我好像在乞討一樣"},{"start":525.203,"end":539.072,"text":"需要多久?我跟委員說明齁就是每一筆我們付款的資料的日期應該都已經很清楚的這個表但應該都有我有剛剛的問題是由超司取得輸入許可我跟你們調"},{"start":540.458,"end":559.546,"text":"你們檢驗所的輸入許可局裡面的人說好了但是在部裡面簽合現在公文流量到哪裡我不知道我今天請教我非常卑微的要求你非常卑微的請求你這個數字什麼時候可以提供我想我不敢因為我非常尊重立法委員"},{"start":560.986,"end":564.389,"text":"所以這個什麼時候可以提供?什麼時候可以提供?什麼時候可以提供?你這樣的話跟你剛才問的措施是不一樣的,一般的措施的是你措施的是超市的本身的進口的部分嗎?"},{"start":583.923,"end":590.55,"text":"是不是就剛剛黃國昌委員所需要的資料你就在一個禮拜之內提供給黃國昌委員?所知的內容很簡單啊"},{"start":598.191,"end":598.211,"text":"議員：黃國昌"},{"start":628.619,"end":652.8,"text":"黃國昌發的嗎?還是誰發的?不是啦!雞蛋輸入檢疫的許可是你們農業部發的欸檢疫的許可是我們可不可以提供?檢疫的部分是應該如果是有的話我們就應該可以提供可以提供需要多久?因為我到目前為止所知到現在要不到嘛需要多久?這個也需要一個禮盼我早就發公文去要了欸"},{"start":654.775,"end":655.256,"text":"所以我剛剛沒有講錯嘛我早就要了嘛"},{"start":662.045,"end":690.828,"text":"你公文還在履行嗎?需要我講我們還是針對問題那請農業部剛剛委員所提出他有兩項兩項要的資料不只啦我剛剛只是藉由那個巡檔剛剛那個所知的部分公文他們那邊都有啦我要的資訊一項一項一項一項我寫得非常的清楚全部在後面我量給召委看這個是6月14日就要所知的內容這個是6月19日就要所知的內容"},{"start":692.298,"end":693.219,"text":"好,那針對於"},{"start":707.052,"end":728.058,"text":"檢疫症的部分嗎?前面所知的部分一併三天之內給可以嗎?如果我問的問題你說我不知道我沒有資訊這是機密那你就這樣回覆就好了嗎?所知剛剛最後一點就三天內回覆給黃委員其他的部分請一個禮拜之內務必要給黃委員好不好因為他已經從6月14 19已經陸續要給你們這個請"},{"start":736.34,"end":737.401,"text":"我們也請農業部照剛剛所說約定的時間請把資料送出去"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}