{"error":false,"id":["154342"],"data":{"IVOD_ID":154342,"IVOD_URL":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154342","日期":"2024-06-27","會議資料":{"會議代碼":"聯席會議-11-1-36,15-2","會議代碼:str":"第11屆第1會期司法及法制、內政委員會第2次聯席會議","屆":11,"會期":1,"會次":2,"臨時會會次":null,"種類":"聯席會議","委員會代碼":[36,15],"委員會代碼:str":["司法及法制委員會","內政委員會"],"標題":"第11屆第1會期司法及法制、內政委員會第2次聯席會議"},"影片種類":"Clip","開始時間":"2024-06-27T09:47:03+08:00","結束時間":"2024-06-27T09:53:18+08:00","影片長度":"00:06:15","支援功能":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/767b6a9d27b3726ca042072a1cf76a92da706b406df85b801377aa0ad8b68879ef8a19ad8d4174405ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"李柏毅","委員發言時間":"09:47:03 - 09:53:18","會議時間":"2024-06-27T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制、內政委員會第2次聯席會議（事由：併案審查\n（一）委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等16人擬具「原住民族委員會組織法第三條及第四條條文修正草案」案。\n（二）委員高金素梅等24人擬具「原住民族委員會組織法第三條及第四條條文修正草案」案。）","gazette":{"lineno":396,"blocks":[["李委員柏毅：（9時47分）謝謝，我們請副主委。"],["主席：麻煩副主委。"],["鍾副主任委員興華：委員好。"],["李委員柏毅：宏陸委員講的就是如果這個修法通過後的接續問題，我們先請教副主委，主委是誰任命？"],["鍾副主任委員興華：院長提請總統任命。"],["李委員柏毅：對。臺灣目前的政治體制，是由總統任命行政院長，由行政院長組閣，再組成各部會包含原委會在內。原住民委員會裡面當然是委員制，但其他部會，包含工程會是委員制，國發會是委員制等等。如果再加入一個任命之後，要經過100個由六都以及縣市政府的議員以及民選區長行使同意權的話，再加上任期制，第一個，對於行政院長任命的這一個權力，它就加上了一個同意權。目前臺灣的憲政體制對於行政院長也沒有同意權，所以對於原委會的主委加上同意權，這個對於憲政體制是非常奇怪的地方。加上剛剛講的，你再回答我一次，這100個可能要行使同意權的這一些代表們，有沒有代表到目前16族所有的聲音，有沒有？"],["鍾副主任委員興華：應該沒有辦法完全代表。"],["李委員柏毅：沒有辦法完全嘛！所以行政院長任命的原委會主委，他的責任、他的使命，他必須要照顧到所有原民朋友的權益，也就是說16族的權益他都必須要照顧到，而且他必須負政治責任，不是有任期保障的，是不是？"],["鍾副主任委員興華：是。"],["李委員柏毅：所以你立場要堅定啊！剛剛宏陸委員問你那麼多次，你回答不出來，基於對於16族所有族人權益的保障，立場要堅定啊！"],["鍾副主任委員興華：是。"],["李委員柏毅：你相不相信你的主委會照顧到所有16族的族人？"],["鍾副主任委員興華：相信，目前。"],["李委員柏毅：對嘛！如果經由這100位代表來行使同意權的話，不出所料……你回答不出來有哪一族現在沒有代表，那你回答得出來哪兩族代表會最多嗎？"],["鍾副主任委員興華：人口數最多的，大概代表會比較多。"],["李委員柏毅：人口數最多？來，我請教你一下，現在人口數最多的兩個族？"],["鍾副主任委員興華：應該是阿美族、排灣族、泰雅族，前三名。"],["李委員柏毅：好，前三名阿美、排灣、泰雅。"],["鍾副主任委員興華：對。"],["李委員柏毅：所以代表有可能喔！你對這100個是不敢回答出來還是怎樣？趕快查出來跟委員會報告，到底這三族占100個的比例有多少？"],["鍾副主任委員興華：是。"],["李委員柏毅：會不會這一個同意權，以後會造成其他15族以上的族人權益可能不被重視？這個是我們必須要先提出來的問題。另外一個是政委的問題，我想其實所有的部會在行政院裡面都一樣大，所以我相信原委會所提出來對於原住民族朋友的權益，在行政院會裡面要做相關討論的話，沒有說原民會比較小。你自己有參加過行政院會，舉手會舉不起來嗎？所以這兩個修法是兩套不一樣的邏輯，一個同意權，另外一個政委。政委其實就是某一個總統候選人他在競選總統的時候講說，原住民的主委以後要兼任政委，他不懂嘛！至於同意權是另外一個要凌駕目前臺灣憲政體制制度，甚至比內閣制還要大。內閣制要擔任部會首長，要先選上委員，這一個同意權它是比部會還要大，萬一如同剛剛講的，如果這一個主委下台了，請問下一個主委誰提名？是要來問這100位代表會不會同意這個人選？還是行政院長來提名這100位，再加上他不同意的這個邏輯？我覺得這個政治體制必須要很嚴肅的來討論。第三個，目前有多少委員？原民會有多少委員？"],["鍾副主任委員興華：目前族群委員16位。"],["李委員柏毅：16族都有是不是？"],["鍾副主任委員興華：對，每一族代表。"],["李委員柏毅：所以族群委員16位裡面都有聘任的關係？"],["鍾副主任委員興華：對。"],["李委員柏毅：所以有支薪？"],["鍾副主任委員興華：是。"],["李委員柏毅：那如果沒有支薪的話，這16個執行委員是不是會有什麼樣的問題？"],["鍾副主任委員興華：我們認為他們是我們最重要的部落跟原民會之間重要的溝通橋梁，而且他們也分派很多各種不同的任務，所以如果沒有他們的話，我們很多業務的推動其實也比較困難。"],["李委員柏毅：而且這16個有支薪委員，在我們部落裡面會更可以代表原民會來溝通相關原民的這些相關權益。"],["鍾副主任委員興華：是。"],["李委員柏毅：所以這一條我們也主張這些必須要保留，那也請原民會這邊立場堅定。"],["鍾副主任委員興華：是，謝謝委員。"],["李委員柏毅：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝李委員。","下一位我們請黃捷委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":176,"meet_id":"聯席會議-11-1-36,15-2","speakers":["吳宗憲","鄭天財Sra 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