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10:33:54","會議時間":"2024-06-27T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第30次全體委員會議（事由：邀請外交部部長林佳龍報告「如何運用國際友我組織力量，協助我國加入聯合國相關組織具體做法」，並備質詢。）","gazette":{"lineno":312,"blocks":[["王委員定宇：（10時24分）謝謝主席。麻煩部長。"],["主席：請部長。"],["王委員定宇：部長早。"],["林部長佳龍：早。"],["王委員定宇：外交總是充滿困難的，我們常常是希望給外交人員，不管在國外或國內，都給予最大的支持跟鼓勵，但是一旦有了黑函、有了醜聞、有了這樣的傳聞，不管是否為真，對於該駐館工作的執行、人員的士氣，都有相當大的影響。所以本席期待部長對於相關的傳聞，甚至於有時候臨時問你，你根本沒辦法辨別真假，像我剛才聽到，我不認為現在年輕的外交官可以被處長、館長叫去坐在電腦前面，盯著那個螢幕不准開機，現在公務員也不容許這樣被對待，所以是否為真要儘速有個答案，哪怕是在半夜都應該有答案，而不是在回答的時候說我們再來瞭解看看，因為一旦傳聞被傳，後面雖證明不是真的，傷害都已造成，更何況外交人員代表的是我們國家的門面。美國駐處是我們臺灣最重要的外交單位，本席希望這個真相不要拖過24個小時，儘速有個答案，比方說他要換車，後來看起來是沒有嘛！他自己的車沒有要換，他希望有個車，這些東西都可以條列出來是否允當，我們也不是要求我們駐外人員每個人都要有補丁，要過得清苦……因為他們是代表國家的門面，就像國外的外國大使駐在臺灣，他們要求的館舍大概都是帝寶等級的，這都一定是代表國家顏面，所以在合宜合理的範圍內，我覺得部長你們應該就這樣的傳聞儘速釐清，否則每次有人事異動，像是部長換了，我們就會收到一疊信，以往當然有的是真的，像秦日新那個就真的嘛！發生那個事情該怎麼處分就該怎麼處分，所以不要包庇、不要護短，但是牽涉到國家外交事務，特別美國現在在總統大選，美臺關係現在特別重要，在這樣的狀況下，美處的事情就不容許這樣延燒，我不曉得部長你從美處發生這樣的事情到目前為止，所有的傳聞你們到底掌握了多少？"],["林部長佳龍：各方的意見我都有收到，首先就是採購的部分，我們把它釐清，管理的部分……"],["王委員定宇：採購有沒有如同傳聞或者報導的那個狀況？"],["林部長佳龍：外面講說800萬嘛！我今天早上也有跟記者說明，扣掉了那些硬體，就是備用的發電機，事實上上半年整個採購的財產就是大概7萬美金左右。"],["王委員定宇：7萬美金？"],["林部長佳龍：所以兩百多萬臺幣嘛！"],["王委員定宇：那這7萬美金，就你們外交部的判斷是否合宜、合理、合法？"],["林部長佳龍：應該是在我們……"],["王委員定宇：規範的範圍內還外？"],["林部長佳龍：之所以核可它，就是它是合乎規範的。"],["王委員定宇：部長也好，或者我們北美司，拜託一下，這個事情應該是一個明確的東西，有不當，該怎麼處理就怎麼處理嘛！"],["林部長佳龍：對。"],["王委員定宇：我也不認為現在有哪個官大到可以非他不可，但是如果沒有不當也應該要明確，否則這樣在外，裡面這樣放火燒，對國家不是好事，我在意的不是一個個人或一個外交官，而是這個事情處理的態度，外交部應該要清楚、明瞭而迅速。"],["林部長佳龍：我跟委員說明，我們掌握到的就是因為外館有人不滿才提供了這個資料，也給委員，後來也給媒體，這是另外一部分，內部的領導、管理的問題，但是我認為已經發生了，我們就要來處理。"],["王委員定宇：部長，人的不滿，現代社會都會有啦！寫信很方便，手機就可以寫，但我的意思是說，站在外交部，他作為國家的門面，你應該去思考的是他所傳出來的事情，第一個，有沒有涉及不法？沒有就說沒有，有的話就移送法辦；再來，有沒有合於我們長年、數十年累積的外交規範跟禮儀？也有，那就說清楚；最後，有沒有涉及私德不當的？如果這三個都沒有，只是說我感受到覺得你對我不禮貌，那個就讓社會來公評，而不是說大家不能講，可以講，但是前面這三塊很重要，因為這三塊如果回答得支支吾吾、不清不楚的話，我坦白講，其他的館處也可以有樣學樣，那我們臺灣的外交已經這麼辛苦的狀態下還能做事嗎？你懂我意思嗎？"],["林部長佳龍：對，所以委員我在第一次回應外界就說這個事情沒有不法，係依照採購的規定，但是不是有它的必要性跟合理性，這就要依項目去討論。"],["王委員定宇：這一點我現在沒有定見、答案，因為我沒有看到資訊，我只能建議部長，在最快的時間內，不要再過了24小時了，很清楚地就法律規定，就一般外交的禮儀規範，以及就私德的部分這三塊有或沒有來做釐清，現在24小時都可以通電話了，這樣子讓國人知道這可能是人跟人的相處或者人事問題或者怎麼樣，講的人就講，有個價值判斷而已，但至少這三塊有沒有，清清楚楚，這要儘快啦！好不好？"],["林部長佳龍：好。"],["王委員定宇：我接下來請教我們跟梵蒂岡的問題，梵蒂岡現在是我們在歐洲唯一也是重要的外交關係，教廷國跟中國之間在這一任的教宗，他一直希望他有個歷史成就、歷史定位，也就是照顧中國教區的信徒，我們對這沒意見，天主教有它神權國家的概念，中國、中共一直是無神論國家，中共的主教叫做愛國主教、愛國神職人員，都要它來任命，所以一直有牴觸下，臺灣跟梵蒂岡的邦交相對穩定，但從這一任教宗在前幾年，由香港的主教向臺灣提出警告，我們就一直在密切注意這個事情了。這幾天，中共的官媒環球網很罕見地報導了兩件事情，一個是承認梵蒂岡任命杭州主教作標題，等於是承認它任命主教；第二個是梵蒂岡希望在中國設立常設辦事處，就這個消息，因為環球網我常看到假消息，所以我第一個要請教外交部或者我們歐洲司長，這個報導是否為真？第二個、我們跟教廷國目前的邦交狀況為何，是不是請回答？"],["黃司長鈞耀：有關於這個報導，兩個部分，第一個部分就是教廷他任命了這個主教……"],["王委員定宇：杭州主教。"],["黃司長鈞耀：杭州主教，這件事情是為真。"],["王委員定宇：這是真的，所以中國讓教廷國可以派主教了？"],["黃司長鈞耀：不是，因為他們有一個臨時的主教任命協議，他們是依據他們的臨時主教任命協議，由雙方協調的結果，事實上中國在這個過程中也扮演他們自己的角色。"],["王委員定宇：因為教廷國長期以來是認為任命主教權是神權，不能有協調的過程。"],["黃司長鈞耀：對，但是……"],["王委員定宇：所以杭州這個主教是經過協調任命出來的？"],["黃司長鈞耀：這個是依據他們現在已經應該是第5年或第6年……"],["王委員定宇：有一個臨時協議嘛！"],["黃司長鈞耀：對，有一個臨時協議。"],["王委員定宇：好，教廷希望在那邊有一個辦事處……"],["黃司長鈞耀：越南也是有類似的處理方法。"],["王委員定宇：對啊，教廷希望在中國設辦事處這個事情……"],["黃司長鈞耀：這件事情教廷已經說了非常多次，但是依據教廷的說法，中國一直在這個問題上沒有意願讓步，因為如果是有這個代表，那是教宗的代表，但是中國是一個無神論的國家。"],["王委員定宇：我時間到了，我最後請教我們現在跟教廷國的邦交狀況？"],["黃司長鈞耀：基本上我們跟教廷的邦交是穩固，譬如說在520總統就職的時候，教廷也派遣了特使……"],["王委員定宇：你們現在還有沒有在用燈號標示？"],["黃司長鈞耀：有。"],["王委員定宇：它現在是什麼燈？"],["黃司長鈞耀：這部分好像是機密，我可以跟委員再另行報告。"],["王委員定宇：機密我尊重，坦白講，我們對於每個國家，沒有一個局勢是可以樂觀的，很多蛛絲馬跡還是要注意，好，謝謝部長，謝謝主席。"],["林部長佳龍：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝。目前我們收到臨時提案共2案，待會黃國昌委員質詢結束以後進行處理，處理完畢休息5分鐘。現在請陳冠廷委員上台質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":44,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-35-30","speakers":["馬文君","羅美玲","陳永康","黃仁","沈伯洋","林楚茵","徐巧芯","王定宇","陳冠廷","黃國昌","羅智強","洪申翰","陳培瑜","邱志偉","林憶君"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-06-27"],"gazette_id":"1136801","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1136801_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第30次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請外交部部長林佳龍報告「如何運用國際友我組織力量，協助我國加入聯合國相關組織具體做\n法」，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1136801_00001"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2.52846875,"end":4.806593750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":5.262218750000001,"end":5.9372187499999995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":13.78409375,"end":25.191593750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":25.832843750000002,"end":27.43596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":28.07721875,"end":29.089718750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":29.680343750000002,"end":32.41409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":33.15659375,"end":33.76409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":34.06784375,"end":36.53159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":37.071593750000005,"end":40.75034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":41.492843750000006,"end":41.914718750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":42.032843750000005,"end":42.69096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":43.16346875,"end":44.29409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":44.61471875,"end":46.96034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":47.68596875,"end":51.854093750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":52.174718750000004,"end":54.891593750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":55.44846875,"end":59.71784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":60.32534375,"end":73.84221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":74.24721875,"end":76.10346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":77.21721875,"end":82.66784375},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麻煩部長請部長外交總是充滿困難的我們常常是希望給我們外交人員不管在國外或國內都給予最大的支持跟鼓勵但是一旦有了黑函"},{"start":28.14,"end":40.234,"text":"有了醜聞：有了這樣的傳聞：不管是否為真：對於該住管的工作的執行：人員的士氣都有相當大的影響"},{"start":42.205,"end":58.892,"text":"所以本期期待部長對於相關的傳聞甚至於有時候臨時問你你根本沒辦法辨別真假像我剛才聽到我不認為現在年輕的外交官可以被處長館長叫去坐在電腦前面盯著那個螢幕不准開機"},{"start":61.253,"end":89.525,"text":"這個現在公務員也不容許這樣子對待所以是否為真要儘速有個答案哪怕半夜都應該有答案而不是在回答說這個我們來了解看看因為一旦傳聞被傳後面證明不是真的傷害都已造成更何況外交人員代表是我們國家的門面所以有關美國住處這是我們台灣最重要的外交單位那這個真相本其實希望"},{"start":90.714,"end":91.157,"text":"不要再拖過24個小時"},{"start":93.148,"end":93.768,"text":"所以在合宜合理的範圍內"},{"start":123.57,"end":135.656,"text":"部長我覺得你們應該就這樣的傳聞盡速釐清否則每次有人事異動每次有人事的這個將部長換了下面這些我們就會收到一疊信"},{"start":137.548,"end":164.836,"text":"那以往當然有的有的真的像秦日新那個就真的嘛秦日新那是真的那發生那個事情該怎麼處分就該怎麼處分所以不要包庇不要護短但是牽涉到國家外交事務特別美國現在總統大選特別台美關係現在是重要的關係在這樣狀況下美促的事情就不容許這樣延燒我不曉得部長你從美促發生這樣的事情到目前為止所有的傳聞你們到底掌握多少"},{"start":168.445,"end":168.689,"text":"這件事"},{"start":169.878,"end":196.456,"text":"各方的意見我都有收到首先就是說採購的部分我們把它釐清管理的部分採購有沒有如同傳聞的或者報導的那個狀況所以外面講說800萬我今天早上在記者也有說明就是說扣掉了那些硬體就是備用的發電機事實上上半年整個這些採購的財產就是大概"},{"start":200.478,"end":202.28,"text":"這個事情應該是一個明確的東西有不當該怎麼處理就怎麼處理嘛"},{"start":227.791,"end":253.585,"text":"對我也不認為現在有哪個官大到可以非他不可但是如果沒有不當也應該要明確否則這樣在外裡面這樣放火燒對國家不是好事我在意的不是一個個人或一個外交官而是這個事情處理的態度外交部應該要清楚明瞭而迅速我跟委員說明因為我們所掌握到就是因為外管有人"},{"start":255.285,"end":283.301,"text":"人的不滿提供了這個資料那也給委員然後來也給媒體這是另外一部分內部的領導管理的問題但是我說就已經發生了我們就要來處理人的不滿現代社會都會有啦社會做方便的啦手機都可以寫嘛但我的意思說站在外交部作為國家的門面你應該去思考是他所傳出來的事情第一個有沒有涉及不法沒有就說沒有有的話就依從法辦"},{"start":284.241,"end":310.534,"text":"再來有沒有合於我們長年數十年累積的外交的規範跟禮儀也有那就說清楚最後有沒有涉及私德不當的那如果這三個都沒有那只是說我感受到覺得你對我不禮貌那個就讓社會來公平而不是說大家不能講可以講但是前面這三塊很重要因為這三塊如果回答的置之烏烏不清不楚的話我坦白講"},{"start":311.966,"end":314.267,"text":"所以委員我在第一次回應外界就是說這個事情沒有步伐"},{"start":327.403,"end":351.988,"text":"那依照採購的規定但是是不是有它的必要性跟合理性這就要項目去討論這一題我現在沒有定見答應我沒有看到資訊我只能建議部長在最快的時間內不要再過20小時了很清楚的就法律規定就外交的我們一般的禮儀規範以及就施責的部分這三塊有或沒有能夠釐清現在24小時都可以通電話了"},{"start":353.268,"end":354.99,"text":"范帝剛現在是我們在歐洲齁大概唯一也是重要的外交關係那教廷國"},{"start":378.547,"end":393.415,"text":"跟中國之間在這一任的教宗他一直希望他有個歷史成就歷史定位也就是照顧中國教區的信徒我們對這沒意見天主教有他的這個他的神權國家的一個概念"},{"start":394.255,"end":417.891,"text":"那中國呢中共一直他是無神論國家所以中共那邊的主教叫做愛國主教愛國神職人員都要他來任命所以一直有抵觸下所以台灣跟范帝剛的邦交呢相對起來是一個穩定但從這一任教宗在前幾年由香港的主教向台灣提出警告我們就一直在密切注意這個事情了這幾天"},{"start":419.522,"end":445.147,"text":"在中共的官媒環球網很罕見的報導了兩件事情一個是承認梵蒂岡任命杭州主教做標題等於是承認他任命主教第二個是梵蒂岡希望在中國設立常設辦事處就這個消息因為"},{"start":446.274,"end":447.735,"text":"有關於這個報導兩個部分第一個部分就是教廷他"},{"start":473.276,"end":482.031,"text":"他任命這個主教杭州主教這件事情是為真這是真的所以中國讓教廷國可以派主教"},{"start":482.728,"end":483.308,"text":"因為教廷國"},{"start":504.131,"end":511.28,"text":"長期以來是認為任命主教權是神權不能有協調的過程對 但是他們跟所以常說這個主教是經過協調任命出來的"},{"start":513.676,"end":540.695,"text":"這個是他們依據他們現在已經應該是第5年或第6年有一個臨時協議那他們跟越南也是有類似的處理方法教廷希望在中國設辦事處這件事情教廷已經說了非常多次但是中國依據教廷的說法中國一直在這個問題上他並沒有願意讓步因為教宗"},{"start":541.596,"end":545.8,"text":"我們現在跟教廷國的邦交狀況?我們跟教廷國的邦交基本上是穩固比如說在520總統就職的時候教廷也派遣了特使你現在還在用燈號標示啊?有他現在是什麼燈?"},{"start":567.449,"end":569.611,"text":"這部分好像是機密,我可以跟委員進行報告。"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}