{"error":false,"id":["154353"],"data":{"IVOD_ID":154353,"IVOD_URL":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154353","日期":"2024-06-27","會議資料":{"會議代碼":"聯席會議-11-1-36,15-2","會議代碼:str":"第11屆第1會期司法及法制、內政委員會第2次聯席會議","屆":11,"會期":1,"會次":2,"臨時會會次":null,"種類":"聯席會議","委員會代碼":[36,15],"委員會代碼:str":["司法及法制委員會","內政委員會"],"標題":"第11屆第1會期司法及法制、內政委員會第2次聯席會議"},"影片種類":"Clip","開始時間":"2024-06-27T10:19:38+08:00","結束時間":"2024-06-27T10:30:28+08:00","影片長度":"00:10:50","支援功能":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/767b6a9d27b3726caf02175f5ee90ededa706b406df85b80b8981cfbc017771be445050a438e2b795ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"鍾佳濱","委員發言時間":"10:19:38 - 10:30:28","會議時間":"2024-06-27T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制、內政委員會第2次聯席會議（事由：併案審查\n（一）委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等16人擬具「原住民族委員會組織法第三條及第四條條文修正草案」案。\n（二）委員高金素梅等24人擬具「原住民族委員會組織法第三條及第四條條文修正草案」案。）","gazette":{"lineno":545,"blocks":[["鍾委員佳濱：（10時19分）主席、在場的委員先進、列席的政府機關首長、官員，會場工作夥伴、媒體記者女士、先生。有請鍾副主委。"],["主席：麻煩副主委。"],["鍾副主任委員興華：鍾委員好。"],["鍾委員佳濱：主委好。主委你是不是中華民國人民？"],["鍾副主任委員興華：是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：我是不是中華民國人民？"],["鍾副主任委員興華：是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：所以根據憲法第七條，中華民國人民不分男女、宗教，種族、階級、黨派，在法律上一律平等，這意思是說，我跟你同不同種族？"],["鍾副主任委員興華：是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：我們同宗但不同族啦！我們有沒有平等？"],["鍾副主任委員興華：平等。"],["鍾委員佳濱：要平等。好，所以我們根據憲法第十七條，我們都有平等參與選舉的權利，對不對？"],["鍾副主任委員興華：是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：所以你可不可以選總統？可以嘛！我可不可以選總統？"],["鍾副主任委員興華：四十歲以上可以。"],["鍾委員佳濱：可以嘛！四十歲以上，所以我們平等。"],["鍾副主任委員興華：是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：根據憲法第十八條，我們有應考試服公職的權利，我可不可以去參加公務人員考試？你有沒有參加公務人員考試？"],["鍾副主任委員興華：有"],["鍾委員佳濱：你可以當公務員，對不對？"],["鍾副主任委員興華：是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：我可不可以當公務員？"],["鍾副主任委員興華：可以。"],["鍾委員佳濱：我們平等嘛！好，那我請教一下，現任的總統，這次總統大選你有投票嗎？"],["鍾副主任委員興華：有。"],["鍾委員佳濱：我也有投票嘛！不管我們有沒有投票支持同一個總統，現任的總統是我們國家的元首，代表了你、也代表了我，你同不同意？"],["鍾副主任委員興華：是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：你有沒有參與這次立委的投票？"],["鍾副主任委員興華：有。"],["鍾委員佳濱：我也參與立委投票嘛！我們選的是不同人，一定的啦，你不能投我，我也不可能投原民的立委嘛！但是不管現在的立法委員、原民的立法委員，你有沒有投票給他，他都代表你，對不對？我投票投給我，當然代表我自己啦！好，請教一下，目前大法官、考試委員、監察委員，你有沒有投票給他？"],["鍾副主任委員興華：沒有。"],["鍾委員佳濱：他可不可以代表你跟我？可以，因為他是由我們選出來的總統所提名的，他們是由113位立法委員所組成，即我們選出來的立委所同意任命的，所以考委、監委跟大法官，雖然我們沒有投票給他，但他都代表了你跟我，對不對？"],["鍾副主任委員興華：對。"],["鍾委員佳濱：那他有沒有平等地對待你跟我，你確定嗎？考委有沒有原住民？"],["鍾副主任委員興華：考委有。"],["鍾委員佳濱：有嘛！監委有沒有原住民？"],["鍾副主任委員興華：有兩個。"],["鍾委員佳濱：原住民有幾族？"],["鍾副主任委員興華：16族。"],["鍾委員佳濱：監委有16族的原住民都有嗎？"],["鍾副主任委員興華：沒有。"],["鍾委員佳濱：考委有16族的原住民都有嗎？大法官有沒有原住民？"],["鍾副主任委員興華：沒有。"],["鍾委員佳濱：沒有原住民身分的大法官雖然由總統提名，但經全國民意基礎的立法院同意通過，他可以公平地對待不同的族群嗎？可不可以？"],["鍾副主任委員興華：可以。"],["鍾委員佳濱：可以嘛！所以目前政務人員當中，大法官有沒有規定一定要有一個是原住民？"],["鍾副主任委員興華：沒有。"],["鍾委員佳濱：如果沒有規定大法官一定要有一個原住民，這樣是否有違我們平等對待各個種族的憲法保障第七條的原則原理？有沒有？沒有嘛！為什麼？因為不管有沒有保障大法官是不是具有原住民身分，大法官既經全民選出來的總統提名，既經全民選出來的國會立法委員，有你的一票，有我的一票的委員來同意任命，他就要根據憲法第七條，公平地對待不分種族的每一個國民，是不是這樣？"],["鍾副主任委員興華：是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：來，我們來談正題，這只是很清楚的一個憲法ABC。","我們來談一下環境保育與民生利用並行，補償禁伐並鼓勵永續經營，我們來看一下。目前全國的原保地有26萬6,000公頃，對不對？"],["鍾副主任委員興華：對。"],["鍾委員佳濱：其中林業用地占了六成六，是不是？"],["鍾副主任委員興華：是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：目前只有林保地會被納入禁伐區可以領取禁伐補償，是不是這樣？"],["鍾副主任委員興華：是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：這當中屏東縣是不是最多？"],["鍾副主任委員興華：對，屏東縣最多。"],["鍾委員佳濱：所以我要問這個題目。來，我們往下看。目前列為禁伐區的有9種，是不是有這些？林業用地、水保用地、水質保護區、國家公園，性質一不一樣？不一樣啊！林業用地跟國家公園是不一樣的，是不是這樣？水質保護區跟我們的水土保護區又不太一樣。好，這些區域不管是不是原保地都有可能被列為禁伐區，是不是？"],["鍾副主任委員興華：是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：不是只有原保地會被列入，是不是這樣？好，往下看。所以目前公告禁伐區域只能維持原貌，有沒有其他使用的可能？"],["鍾副主任委員興華：沒有。"],["鍾委員佳濱：如果說我保持原貌，禁伐公告之後有兩種，一種是做造林或其他用途，你們是不是根據判斷，有沒有濫墾濫伐或根據竹木覆蓋率有七成以上，就算是可以符合資格，是不是這樣？"],["鍾副主任委員興華：是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：只要符合補償要件就算是有做其他的使用，符合規定也可以領取補償，是不是這樣？"],["鍾副主任委員興華：是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：所以目前領取禁伐補償，不是叫你什麼都不能動，只是要你合乎規定來使用，是不是？"],["鍾副主任委員興華：是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，往下看。目前申請補償的面積有沒有逐年增加？"],["鍾副主任委員興華：有。"],["鍾委員佳濱：從2.4萬公頃到去年7.2萬公頃了，到了2024年，我們估計有7.7萬，請問新核定補償的土地通常有沒有做使用？有沒有做使用？它只是禁伐而已，有沒有做其他的使用？你們有沒有去考究？這些新核定補償的原保地當中的林業用地有沒有做使用？據我所知，多數沒有做使用，它就是保持原狀，是不是這樣？"],["鍾副主任委員興華：是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：所以你們目前所核發的禁伐補助絕大多數都是保持原狀，是不是？但是法律有沒有規定他們底下不可以使用？沒有嘛？"],["鍾副主任委員興華：沒有。"],["鍾委員佳濱：你回答要快一點、聲音大一點！"],["鍾副主任委員興華：好。"],["鍾委員佳濱：我們都是姓鍾，雖然我們不同族，我們希望我們詢答應該很順！"],["鍾副主任委員興華：是！"],["鍾委員佳濱：接下來請問一下，目前在屬於原保地的林地當中有A、B兩種方案，一種是農業部林保署的造林獎勵，有沒有？"],["鍾副主任委員興華：有。"],["鍾委員佳濱：你們知道嘛？"],["鍾副主任委員興華：對。"],["鍾委員佳濱：他們的造林獎勵可不可以補助、可不可以使用？"],["鍾副主任委員興華：可以。"],["鍾委員佳濱：可以嘛，鼓勵他使用嘛，對不對？"],["鍾副主任委員興華：鼓勵使用，對。"],["鍾委員佳濱：那你們的禁伐補償沒有鼓勵使用嘛？"],["鍾副主任委員興華：禁砍伐。"],["鍾委員佳濱：只有禁砍伐，但是也不禁止他使用，他必須合乎規定使用，對不對？"],["鍾副主任委員興華：是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：但現況是大部分都沒有使用。我們來想想看有沒有一個C方案，就是鼓勵其他的利用方式，既不是林保署的造林獎勵，但是又有其他除了保留原況以外的使用。那A跟B，也就是林保署的跟原民會的可以同時申請嗎？"],["鍾副主任委員興華：不可以。"],["鍾委員佳濱：不可以，A或B是互斥的？"],["鍾副主任委員興華：是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：如果還有一個C方案，他符合我們禁伐補助覆蓋率七成的規定，但是他做部分的使用，可不可以同時兼領？如果有個C方案？"],["鍾副主任委員興華：如果在合法使用……"],["鍾委員佳濱：合乎規定使用的方案你們同意？"],["鍾副主任委員興華：可以。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，所以你看，A方案的話，個人投入要投入很多，他個人有一定的收益、環境的收益也不錯，環境就是維持它的狀況；方案B就是禁伐補償，個人不用投入任何的利用跟開發，但是個人有一定的收益、環境也得到一些些保障，是不是這樣？"],["鍾副主任委員興華：是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：但是如果我們加一個C方案，我們比照，他個人投入一些符合規定的開發運用，他個人可以得到收益、環境也得到很大的再利用，你覺得有沒有可能？"],["鍾副主任委員興華：有可能，因為土地的利用很重要。"],["鍾委員佳濱：這個利用叫什麼？我給你看答案，這種利用叫林下經濟。其實林下經濟可以維持現在林地的現有狀況，可是在滿足覆蓋率七成的情況之下，他可以又包括林下做一些開發利用、以利民生，目前有沒有例子？原民會有沒有這樣的例子？"],["鍾副主任委員興華：有。"],["鍾委員佳濱：我告訴你有哪些，以前我質詢過，一個叫做什麼？蜜蜂、蜂蜜，對不對？我們養蜜蜂的蜂蜜，還有高山茶，為什麼蜂蜜跟高山茶是互利的？因為有了蜂蜜，它會帶來授粉。往下看，一種叫做無螫蜂，聽過無螫蜂嗎？有沒有聽過無螫蜂？就是沒有尾針、刺的。"],["鍾副主任委員興華：有。"],["鍾委員佳濱：無螫蜂在我們原住民的文化當中非常重要，它有非常多的應用用途，包括它的黏著、它的防水，都跟我們打獵有關。"],["鍾副主任委員興華：是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：副主委，你有沒有下去打過獵？有沒有拉過弓？"],["鍾副主任委員興華：有拉過弓，沒有打過獵。"],["鍾委員佳濱：沒有打過獵，我也跟你一樣，我們都同姓鍾。所以同樣的道理，鄒族也有這樣一種屋簷下的蜂窩來幫助家裡開墾的農園菜圃授粉。","最後關於我的訴求，現在你們是不是有一個111年到114年的原住民族的促進就業方案？"],["鍾副主任委員興華：有，有這個部分。"],["鍾委員佳濱：除了古道遺址之外，是不是還有生態跟環境調查的維護計畫？"],["鍾副主任委員興華：有。"],["鍾委員佳濱：培育我們原住民同胞可以在維護自然生態的環境之下，同時做一些經濟的開發利用，有沒有？"],["鍾副主任委員興華：有，在各鄉鎮大概有10位左右。"],["鍾委員佳濱：目前成效如何？"],["鍾副主任委員興華：目前做自然保育是有一些對環境的改善。"],["鍾委員佳濱：對環境的改善？"],["鍾副主任委員興華：對。"],["鍾委員佳濱：所以我要做一個結論，這個結論就是主張：請原民會會同行政院各其他主管機關，譬如像農業部，提出一個中長程的社會發展計畫，目的就是針對目前有領取禁伐補償或是符合領取禁伐補償的原保地當中的林業用地，我們鼓勵原住民朋友投入做符合規定的開發運用，你同意嗎？"],["鍾副主任委員興華：好，我們努力來研擬。"],["鍾委員佳濱：有嗎？有在研擬了？"],["鍾副主任委員興華：對！"],["鍾委員佳濱：我們回到上面那個圖，就是那個A、B、C方案的圖。如果你們可以研議出這樣的C方案，我相信未來我們原住民的朋友、有原保地的朋友，他在既有的林業用地上，不是單純受到禁伐的限制、完全不能夠使用，只能領取政府有限的禁伐補償，我希望你們也鼓勵他投入類似林下經濟，在合乎禁伐補償的使用範圍內，做必要的、合理的經濟開發運用，你同意嗎？"],["鍾副主任委員興華：同意，因為主委前幾天也有提到這個部分的……"],["鍾委員佳濱：你們已經開始著手了、已經有計畫醞釀了？"],["鍾副主任委員興華：就開始去做研擬……"],["鍾委員佳濱：在執行了？我希望未來在下年度的計畫當中看到你們提出C方案，來幫助原來領用B方案的原住民朋友，讓他們可以因為他們的投入、對生態的服務而可以領到更多的獎勵跟補助，好不好？"],["鍾副主任委員興華：是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，謝謝。"],["鍾副主任委員興華：謝謝，謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝鍾委員。","下一位請許宇甄委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":176,"meet_id":"聯席會議-11-1-36,15-2","speakers":["吳宗憲","鄭天財Sra 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"},{"start":321.86,"end":342.566,"text":"新核定的這些補償的元寶地上的林業用地有沒有做使用?我所知道多數沒有做使用,它就是保持原狀,是不是這樣?所以你們目前所合法的禁法補助,絕大多數都是保持原狀,是不是?但是法律有沒有規定他們底下不可以使用?沒有嗎?"},{"start":343.986,"end":372.314,"text":"你講話要回答快一點聲音大一點我們都是姓鍾雖然我們不同族希望我們詢答應該很順來往下看那接下來我們請問一下現在目前我們在屬於原保地的林地當中有AB兩種方案一種是農業部林保署的造林獎勵有沒有你們知道嗎他們的造林獎勵可不可以去補助可不可以去使用"},{"start":374.053,"end":374.613,"text":"主席主席"},{"start":402.042,"end":404.985,"text":"司法及內政委員會組織法第三條及第四條條文修正草案案"},{"start":420.674,"end":430.358,"text":"二）委員高金素梅等24人擬具:「原住民族委員會組織法第三條及第四條條文修正草案．一）委員高金素梅等24人擬具:「原住民族委員會組織法第三條及第四條條文修正草案．一）委員高金素梅等24人擬具:「原住民族委員會組織法第三條及第四條條文修正草案．一）委員高金素梅等24人擬具:「原住民族委員會組織法第三條及第四條條文修正草案．一）委員高金素梅等24人擬具:「原住民族委員會組織法第三條及第四條"},{"start":450.865,"end":474.563,"text":"開發運用,符合規定的開發運用,他個人可以得到收益,環境也得到很大的再利用,你覺得有沒有可能?這個利用叫什麼?我來給你看答案,這個利用叫零下經濟。其實零下經濟可以維持現在林地的一個現有狀況,可是在滿足覆蓋率7成的情況之下,它可以又包括零下做一些開發利用以利民生。目前有沒有例子?"},{"start":475.748,"end":493.945,"text":"原民會有沒有這樣的例子?有,來告訴你有哪些?以前我諮詢過下一頁,一個叫做什麼?就是蜜蜂,蜂蜜對不對?我們養蜜蜂的蜂蜜,有高山茶。為什麼蜂蜜跟高山茶是互利的?因為有的蜂蜜它會帶來授粉,往下看。一種叫做無遮蜂,聽過無遮蜂嗎?"},{"start":495.834,"end":522.14,"text":"有沒有聽過吳哲峰?就是沒有尾針的刺的。吳哲峰在我們原住民的文化當中非常重要。他有非常多的應用用途,包括他的黏著,包括他的防水,都跟我們打獵有關。副主委,你有沒有下去打過獵?有沒有拉過弓?有拉過弓,沒有打過獵。沒有打過獵,我也跟你一樣啦,我們都是信忠。所以呢,再往下一頁。所以呢,同樣的道理,我們鄒族也有這樣的一個屋簷下的蜂窩,來幫助他們家裡可以開墾的農…"},{"start":524.585,"end":551.731,"text":"二）委員蔡普瘦粉最後我的訴求來往上一跳來上一頁現在你們是不是有一個111年到114年的原住民族的出現就業方案有 有這個部分有沒有一個古道遺址之外還有生態跟環境調查的維護計畫 有有沒有可以培育我們的原住民同胞他可以在維護自然生態的環境之下同時做一些經濟的開發利用 有沒有 有在各鄉鎮大概有十位左右 那目前成效如何"},{"start":553.294,"end":580.334,"text":"目前自然保育是有一些對環境的改善對環境的改善所以我要一個結論這個結論就是這個主張請原民會會同行政院各其他主管機關譬如說像農業部提出一個中產層的社會發展計畫他的目的就是針對目前有領取禁法補償或是符合領取禁法補償的原保地上的林業用地我們鼓勵原住民朋友"},{"start":580.854,"end":591.9,"text":"投入做符合規定的開發運用,你同意嗎?好,我們努力來研擬。有嗎?有在研擬了喔?那我們希望說回到上面那個圖齁,就那個ABC方案的圖齁。"},{"start":593.154,"end":612.988,"text":"如果說你們可以研議出這樣的西方案我相信未來我們原住民的朋友有原保地的朋友他在既有的林業用地上不是單純的受到的經法的限制完全不能夠去使用只能說就是領取政府有限的經法補償我們希望你們也鼓勵他投入類似林下經濟當下"},{"start":614.609,"end":643.613,"text":"在合乎禁法補償的使用範圍內做必要的合理的經濟開發運用,你同意嗎?同意,因為主委前幾天也有提到這個部分的...你們已經開始著手了,已經在有計劃醞釀了就開始去做...在執行了,我希望未來在你們下年度的計劃當中看到你們有西方案的提出來幫助原來領用B方案的原住民朋友可以因為他們的投入,他們對生態的服務他們可以領得更多的獎勵跟補助,好不好?"},{"start":644.053,"end":644.455,"text":"主席"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}