{"error":false,"id":["154357"],"data":{"IVOD_ID":154357,"IVOD_URL":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154357","日期":"2024-06-27","會議資料":{"會議代碼":"聯席會議-11-1-36,15-2","會議代碼:str":"第11屆第1會期司法及法制、內政委員會第2次聯席會議","屆":11,"會期":1,"會次":2,"臨時會會次":null,"種類":"聯席會議","委員會代碼":[36,15],"委員會代碼:str":["司法及法制委員會","內政委員會"],"標題":"第11屆第1會期司法及法制、內政委員會第2次聯席會議"},"影片種類":"Clip","開始時間":"2024-06-27T10:38:10+08:00","結束時間":"2024-06-27T10:47:40+08:00","影片長度":"00:09:30","支援功能":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/767b6a9d27b3726c6123b2d911fdfc78da706b406df85b80b8981cfbc017771b1b33c046150ad1425ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"吳宗憲","委員發言時間":"10:38:10 - 10:47:40","會議時間":"2024-06-27T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制、內政委員會第2次聯席會議（事由：併案審查\n（一）委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等16人擬具「原住民族委員會組織法第三條及第四條條文修正草案」案。\n（二）委員高金素梅等24人擬具「原住民族委員會組織法第三條及第四條條文修正草案」案。）","gazette":{"lineno":714,"blocks":[["吳委員宗憲：（10時38分）謝謝。麻煩副主委。"],["鍾副主任委員興華：委員早。"],["吳委員宗憲：副主委早安。我現在主要是要跟你談一下原住民就業的問題。其實這段時間我們看到原住民在就業方面，依據原民會在112年的一份報告，我們發現45.82%的原住民都是從事勞力密集的工作，而且他的收入其實是偏低的。"],["鍾副主任委員興華：是。"],["吳委員宗憲：現在我們來看，每人每月平均薪資大概是3萬4,244塊，跟其他的國人相比，其實是少了9,037塊，未滿3萬元的比例還高達三成多。所以我們從這個數據上面來看，我覺得原住民的工作權本來就有保障的必要，我想請問一下副主委，你有沒有掌握近期原住民整體的失業數據？"],["鍾副主任委員興華：關於失業的數據，我們請我們的科長來說明。"],["李科長珮瑄：跟委員報告，目前失業率跟全體民眾大概相差不到0.05%左右的差距，確實就是如圖所示，112年的就況調查的失業率，原住民是3.53%，全體民眾是3.48%。"],["吳委員宗憲：好，我想要請教一個問題，就是112年這個數據比……應該這麼說，失業率一年只少了0.29%，就從111跟112這樣來比的話，一年只少0.29%，這個進步的速度是不是不太好？"],["李科長珮瑄：跟委員說明，因為失業率的下降其實從早期98年的8%左右已經有逐年下降，近年其實都維持到不到1%，是有透過我們的強化促進原住民就業方案跟各部會的合作，來去促進原住民的就業權益，以上說明。"],["吳委員宗憲：那你們有沒有去分析一下他們找不到工作的原因大概是哪些？"],["李科長珮瑄：有些是生活圈沒有工作機會，或是就業的資訊不夠掌握，還有跟工作的技能也有關係。"],["吳委員宗憲：我有看了一份112年原住民就業狀況調查年度報告，111年的勞動力參與率跟失業率是62.75%跟3.82%，也就是說，我們從這個資料上面來看，有65.31%的人在工作中沒有遇到工作機會，當然這裡面有很多種不同細項的分別；其中有30.42%是找不到他要做的職業類別，像這個你們有沒有去稍微瞭解一下狀況是什麼？是不是專業度不夠或是什麼，有沒有去瞭解？"],["李科長珮瑄：跟委員說明，這除了工作技能不足之外，我們有透過職業訓練，當然也會有分原鄉跟都會，不同地區確實有不同的工作機會。以原鄉而言，本來產業發展就比較有限，所以我們會推動一些在地的觀光政策，這個部分也會加強推動。"],["吳委員宗憲：那照剛剛說的，如果有六成的失業者在找工作的過程中，他完全沒有遇到可以或適合的工作機會，我想請教一下那是不是……副主委，這個部分就問副主委，請問一下這個是不是代表有一些公司會拒絕錄取原住民？甚至連面試的機會也不給？你們有沒有研究過這方面的原因？"],["鍾副主任委員興華：關於這個部分，因為我們目前還有工作技能的問題，可能也有這個部分的考慮，不過我們現在普遍都有針對就業的宣傳跟協助，我們有就業輔導員在各鄉鎮，所以以這個數據來講，好像也偏高，我們也想去瞭解這樣子。"],["吳委員宗憲：我想我們還是要去分析他們找不到工作的原因。"],["鍾副主任委員興華：是。"],["吳委員宗憲：至於會不會有一些公司對原住民本來就有歧視而拒絕去面試他，這也要麻煩你們瞭解一下。如果我們發現沒有工作的原因主要是因為技能或什麼不足的話，我想這個國家就有辦法去介入，介入一下，提供他們一些學習的機會嘛？不能讓他們總是從事高密集的勞力工作，因為那種工作經驗沒有辦法反映在他下一份工作上面的優勢，對不對？我想應該是這樣嘛，副主委？"],["鍾副主任委員興華：是，也謝謝委員，有關這個部分我們是不是也跟勞政單位去瞭解一下這個情況。"],["吳委員宗憲：好，就麻煩你了，要知道問題才能夠解決問題，這部分再麻煩你們。"],["鍾副主任委員興華：是。"],["吳委員宗憲：當然我知道政府有做很多，就像企業要標政府標案的時候，他會要求企業要有一定的原住民比例嘛？"],["鍾副主任委員興華：是。"],["吳委員宗憲：如果沒有的話要繳納代金，這個政府都有在做，這我清楚。"],["鍾副主任委員興華：這已經是行之多年的制度，沒有錯。"],["吳委員宗憲：好，我想請問一下現在企業繳納代金的狀況普不普遍？"],["李科長珮瑄：跟委員說明，未足額的廠商大概平均每年有500到600家左右……"],["吳委員宗憲：比例呢？"],["李科長珮瑄：關於比例這個部分，因為我們每年平均大概有兩萬多個標案，但其實超額進用原住民的廠商的比例也有上升，目前代金這個部分還是維持大概2億到3億左右。"],["吳委員宗憲：沒有，我認為這可能要看一下比例，到底有多少公司寧願繳代金也不用原住民，這應該是看比例，不是看金額吧？"],["李科長珮瑄：跟委員說明，依照工作權保障法的規定，確實100人以上的廠商要進用1名原住民，但是我剛剛有說大概平均的企業是500到600家左右。"],["吳委員宗憲：那這樣啦！我看到釋字第719的理由書有一段提到原住民的聘用是屬於國家保障原住民發展的一環，但是他能夠提供的都屬於短期或不具技術性的工作，難以增進原住民長期穩定的工作機會跟專業技能。大法官之前在釋字理由書裡面都已經提到這一段，所以要麻煩你們除了注意原住民的失業率之外，也要注意一下原住民他們所從事的工作，有沒有辦法讓他們能夠累積一些專業技術，而不單純只是勞力的付出，這一塊要麻煩你們注意一下。"],["鍾副主任委員興華：我們在人才的培力上也會加強這個部分。"],["吳委員宗憲：還有，我們立法院法制局也有提到一個報告，就是政府提供了很多臨時工作，雖然可以解決原住民的生計、燃眉之急，但是這不是一個長久的辦法，因為這反而會隱蔽了原住民的失業率，沒有辦法真實反映原住民面臨的問題。這一塊也麻煩你們在分析的時候要去區分它是一個臨時性的工作，還是一個真正可能讓原住民能夠長期去做的工作，這個部分要麻煩你們瞭解一下。","最後我想提一下，因為原住民他們在就業上其實有一個特殊的狀況，就是早進晚出，對不對？就業反而是很密集的，在15到24歲之間或55歲以上，所以，你們要去瞭解一下15到24歲他們在進行職涯規劃的時候，到底需要的是什麼？因為這個也都是你們出具的報告，就是很多原住民很年輕就開始工作，所以15到24歲這段時間出來工作的人很多……"],["鍾副主任委員興華：也有可能是家庭或經濟因素。"],["吳委員宗憲：或是55歲以上的人也很多，這樣子的話，我們是不是應該要去找出15到24歲這一段的人他們需要什麼東西，然後我們提供他們一些職涯的規劃，或者是協助他們考一些相關的證照，這是我看完你們112年年度報告之後的一個感想。","最後，原民會是不是有其他改善原住民就業狀況或是提高競爭力的配套措施？我想你們應該有這些配套措施，可不可以把相關的規劃，在兩個月內以書面提供給我，讓我拜讀一下，好不好？"],["鍾副主任委員興華：是，兩個月的時間。"],["吳委員宗憲：可以嗎？"],["鍾副主任委員興華：可以。"],["吳委員宗憲：麻煩兩個月內提供給我。"],["鍾副主任委員興華：剛剛委員所講的包括15到24歲，甚至55歲以上的勞參率，我們會瞭解一下他的情況，然後希望可以配合並符合他們的需求，甚至在培力的部分也會來協助他們。"],["吳委員宗憲：是，因為這是你們112年原住民族就業狀況調查年度報告，這是你們報告裡面提出來的數據，可能要請你們分析一下這個數據的狀況是怎麼樣。"],["鍾副主任委員興華：好的。"],["吳委員宗憲：謝謝副主委。"],["鍾副主任委員興華：謝謝委員。"],["主席：好，謝謝吳宗憲委員。接下來我們請羅智強委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":176,"meet_id":"聯席會議-11-1-36,15-2","speakers":["吳宗憲","鄭天財Sra 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