{"error":false,"id":["154365"],"data":{"IVOD_ID":154365,"IVOD_URL":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154365","日期":"2024-06-27","會議資料":{"會議代碼":"委員會-11-1-19-17","會議代碼:str":"第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第17次全體委員會議","屆":11,"會期":1,"會次":17,"臨時會會次":null,"種類":"委員會","委員會代碼":[19],"委員會代碼:str":["經濟委員會"],"標題":"第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第17次全體委員會議"},"影片種類":"Clip","開始時間":"2024-06-27T11:05:40+08:00","結束時間":"2024-06-27T11:16:03+08:00","影片長度":"00:10:23","支援功能":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/767b6a9d27b3726c1a00edb74a9225f021a3f23b3ad13ea2e70b5822ad681b895b23da5efbb1608e5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"蔡易餘","委員發言時間":"11:05:40 - 11:16:03","會議時間":"2024-06-27T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第17次全體委員會議（事由：邀請農業部部長就「農業移工政策改善措施」進行報告，並備質詢。【6月26日及6月27日兩天一次會】）","gazette":{"lineno":708,"blocks":[["蔡委員易餘：（11時6分）謝謝主席，我們請農業部部長。"],["主席：我們再請陳部長。"],["陳部長駿季：委員好。"],["蔡委員易餘：部長，我們在講農業缺工，事實上包括AI的興起，無人機大概也變成未來農業缺工的一個利器之一。在講農業缺工的時候，當然我們知道2019年開始推動「無人機精準農業與農噴應用元年」，2019年開始，對於農噴就有人在使用無人機來噴藥，但是使用無人機噴藥事實上也是有一些狀況，這個狀況就是無人機噴藥時有可能會噴到隔壁的田或是噴到人，請問這個部分有怎樣的規範嗎？也就是你們對無人機的使用規範為何？無人機在噴藥時如果噴灑到隔壁的田要怎麼辦？因為它不像農民背農藥噴灑器在噴灑農藥這樣準確，現在用無人機去噴藥的時候，萬一噴到隔壁的田要怎麼辦？"],["陳部長駿季：我們分兩個部分，第一個部分就是無人機噴藥時如果噴到別人的田是否需要負賠償責任，這個牽涉到舉證的問題，因為無人機在噴灑農藥時，如果隔壁的田有人在的時候，通常不會發生這種誤噴，這種的都是黑飛的啦，黑飛的部分就要靠後端的這些去查證，如果查證屬實的話，就代表他違反了相關的規定，因為他必須取得相關證照才能飛，而且飛的時候必須把航線上傳，我們可以用這個方式去處罰他，但是對於他誤噴的這個部分，因為牽涉到舉證的問題，會比較困擾。"],["蔡委員易餘：舉證問題當然是比較困難。針對無人機噴藥的部分，目前你們的規定是需要證件啦……"],["陳部長駿季：對，雙證照。"],["蔡委員易餘：雙證照嘛。"],["陳部長駿季：對。"],["蔡委員易餘：你們還規定一定要具有法人資格，以具備法人資格這一點來說，很多農民購買農用無人機，但因為他是自然人，所以就沒有辦法取得接案代噴的機會，所以你們認為這個法人資格是必要性的嗎？還是說這個可以去做個檢討？"],["陳部長駿季：沒有，要求要具有法人資格，其實我們當初考量的是萬一有什麼問題時的保險部分，然後也是一個過渡，就是說我們希望在一開始的時候，有一個法人能夠讓有飛手的無人機加入，只是一個加入的動作就可以了，這樣未來在追蹤及管理方面會比較單純，而不是由自然人去處理，當初的設計是這樣子，後續如果無人機越來越普遍的時候，我們也會考慮個人是不是可以去做申請。"],["蔡委員易餘：這樣的法人資格，比方說我是合作社呢？合作社可以嗎？"],["陳部長駿季：可以，你要登記法人應該也可以啊！只要登記為法人就可以。"],["蔡委員易餘：我用合作社來申請，然後合作社裡面的飛手，只要他具有雙證照，他就可以使用？"],["陳部長駿季：對，這個我們會重新通盤來檢討，因為我們現在的政策就是要推一鄉鎮一個農事服務業，農事服務業裡有一個重要的部分就是無人機噴藥的部分，所以這個部分我們會配套的去重新調整遊戲規則。"],["蔡委員易餘：好，如果有要調整的時候，是不是再跟我們辦公室說明一下？"],["陳部長駿季：會，我們一定會去就教於委員。"],["蔡委員易餘：好，那我們再回到今天的主題，就是在講農業移工缺工的狀況，事實上，農業是很特殊，部長你一定很清楚，農業的缺工是屬於季節性的缺工，所以變成除了透過外展或者其他媒合的平臺，不然在農業上真正需要移工而真的符合的農業品項不多，可能是畜牧業或可能是蘭花，他們是一整年都有工作要做，可是一般的農業就是季節性，就是在大季的時候需要，如果小季的時候就不需要移工，所以對他來說，移工是一個額外的成本，所以他們每個人都會將本求利，所以變成說如果去找合法的移工，成本會太高，那當然大家都要找黑工，就是去找這些逃逸的，就變成說他在勞力的缺口上所需要的反而是類似這樣的逃逸外勞，所以這個很矛盾啊！"],["陳部長駿季：對。"],["蔡委員易餘：部長，你難道都沒有想過這些問題嗎？"],["陳部長駿季：跟委員報告，的確現在那種短時間、季節性的缺工才是一個比較大的核心問題，所以我們在做移工外展服務的時候，過去都不能跨區，現在可以跨區，像今天在嘉義一個地區的工作做完之後，他可以跨區到其他的地方工作，如果這樣的話，移工本身工作的時間不會有問題，這種方式也可以解決其他地區的缺工問題。"],["蔡委員易餘：部長，可是外展我們也推了四年多了吧！"],["陳部長駿季：對。"],["蔡委員易餘：可是你有沒有發現事實上真正在用外展的還是我剛剛講的，可能是在畜牧業，就是比較集中型的產業，因為一整年都有工作，所以他去用外展。"],["陳部長駿季：對，農糧的應該也有啊！"],["蔡委員易餘：跟其他的比起來，相對的……"],["陳部長駿季：當然畜牧業本身比較……"],["蔡委員易餘：畜牧業還是比較多。"],["陳部長駿季：對。"],["蔡委員易餘：會變成說像這種我剛剛講的季節性缺工的，在用外展的、要這樣媒合的，相對還是很困難，部長，所以我要具體建議，請你們思考看看，就是以農業來說，農業可不可以因為其特殊性，然後我們讓外勞是可以兼職的？目前外勞是不是只能做一份工作？不管是哪一種外勞，可能是工廠的或者是……"],["陳部長駿季：就是透過勞動契約去限制。"],["蔡委員易餘：對，所以我們如果針對農業可以同意讓外勞兼職，然後就是在做農業，這樣你的問題都解決了，部長，你懂我的意思嗎？比方說，我是在做家庭照顧的外勞，如果我在農業缺工的這段期間，類似外展，讓他們去登記，讓他們兼職，不要說讓他去哪裡偷偷工作，然後被抓到就要把他送回去。你只要讓外勞可以兼職，讓他可以在工作之餘去兼著做什麼工作，就是單農業這一項，我們不要把他開放到其他的工業那裡，因為農業就是很特別的，你只要讓他兼職，那些逃逸的都沒有必要了，他就乖乖地做照顧、做長照的工作，都會乖乖的，不過他如果騰得出時間，就讓他去兼職，讓他去田裡幫忙除草，去田裡採瓜果，這樣有什麼不對？部長。"],["陳部長駿季：我覺得你這個想法的確可以解決非常多的問題，但是這牽涉到勞動法規的限制，我會跟勞動部……"],["蔡委員易餘：是啊！所以我的意思是我們農業的特殊性要拿出來講，就是說我們農業為什麼外勞是沒有辦法解決，就是目前的外展或者是我們現在開放移工，可是這些移工進來以後，他都會偷跑，然後後來你也看到，事實上，我們大家都心照不宣，有很多農業找的那些外勞都是黑工，都是逃逸外勞，我們不能讓我們國家的逃逸外勞這麼多，我們總是要解決問題嘛！既然逃逸外勞就是想要一份工作，我們就從根本處理，讓他們不要逃走，不要再讓他們逃走，既然他想要兼做其他工作，就讓他去兼職。"],["陳部長駿季：今天勞動部也有派人來，我們會就這個訊息在後續再跟勞動部……"],["蔡委員易餘：勞動部今天有誰來？主秘來稍微講一下，請主席再給我30秒就好了，剛剛我講的你都有聽到嘛！"],["陳主任秘書世昌：是，謝謝委員的指教，關於這個部分，在就業服務法裡面，目前針對這種藍領的移工，我們是考慮到他有生活管理責任的問題，所以目前是一個移工、一個雇主，那這個部分如果要放寬讓他可以兼職的話，就會衍生他在兼職的過程當中，會有他的生活管理包括職災的發生或是逃逸的責任的歸屬問題……"],["蔡委員易餘：這個都是細部問題啊！"],["陳主任秘書世昌：對，所以那個部分可能還要再做一些研議。"],["蔡委員易餘：這個問題就是拿出來檢討就好了，就是讓他做類似外展的登記，在登記完以後，他在兼職工作的時候，由第二個雇主來負擔責任。"],["陳主任秘書世昌：這個部分可能還需要再研議，包括我們的移工……"],["蔡委員易餘：沒關係，我是覺得你們要去研議這個部分，第一，你一定要解決，不要讓外勞都是偷跑的、都是這些逃逸外勞，這是你們一定要解決的第一個問題。"],["陳主任秘書世昌：是。"],["蔡委員易餘：第二個，你一定要解決農業缺工的問題，農業這種季節性缺工的問題沒辦法，因為農業的特性就是這個樣子，所以你們勞動部一定要去想辦法，好不好？"],["陳主任秘書世昌：我們會跨部會一起來努力。謝謝。"],["蔡委員易餘：好，謝謝。"],["主席：好，謝謝。接下來我們請鍾佳濱委員，請做詢答。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":302,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-19-17","speakers":["楊瓊瓔","林岱樺","邱議瑩","黃國昌","鄭正鈐","鄭天財Sra 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農業的話他就是季節性他就大開的時候需要 他也燒開的時候就不需要移工 所以對他來說這個移工是一個額外的成本"},{"start":308.028,"end":328.28,"text":"所以他們一定每個人大家都會將本求利所以又變成說我去找合法的移工我身分太高那我當然大家都要找黑工去找這些逃逸的然後就變成說他在勞力的缺口上他需要的反而是類似這樣的逃逸外勞這個很矛盾阿"},{"start":329.682,"end":345.763,"text":"市長,您都沒有想過這個問題嗎?委員報告,就是的確現在那種短時間季節性的缺工才是一個比較大的一個核心的問題所以我們在做那個移工外展的服務的時候假期都只有不能跨區,現在可以跨區"},{"start":346.704,"end":347.024,"text":"議員：蔡易餘議員：蔡易餘"},{"start":370.918,"end":397.255,"text":"還是比較還是比較集中型的產業就是說他的工作是比較他去用外展對農糧的應該也有啊農糧的相對的跟其他當然畜牧業畜牧還是比較多啦變成說集中我剛剛講的季節訓缺工的再用外展的他用這樣媒合的相對還是很困難所以部長我具體建議啦你們思考看看啦"},{"start":397.975,"end":425.453,"text":"就是說以農業來說齁 農業可不可以因為他的特殊性 然後我們讓外勞是可以兼職的目前外勞是不是只能做一份工作不管是哪一種外勞 可能是工廠的或者是勞動契約 透過勞動契約去限制對啊所以我們如果針對農業 你可以同意讓外勞他是兼職"},{"start":427.247,"end":447.301,"text":"然後就是在做農業你的問題都解決了捏部長你懂我的意思嗎?比方說我是在做家庭照顧的外勞那如果我在農業缺工的這段時間類似外財給他們去登記給他們兼職不要說他就去討食慷慨然後就被抓到就要被送回去"},{"start":452.242,"end":465.574,"text":"你只要有外勞可以兼職可以讓他工作之餘可以去選擇做什麼工作啊就當農業這一項我們不要把它開放到其他的工業那裡因為農業他就是一個很特別的啊"},{"start":466.75,"end":488.952,"text":"阿你叫他兼職勒 那個律師都沒必要啦 他就乖乖阿 乖乖阿 要照顧 要做長照阿 還是要照顧的 他就乖乖阿 阿不然他阿 時間最長的出來的 讓他去兼職 讓他去去產林去倒烤炒 去產林去烤粿阿 這樣有什麼不對"},{"start":492.841,"end":514.862,"text":"我覺得你這個想法的確可以解決非常多的問題但是這牽連到勞動法規的一個限制我意思是說我們農業的特殊性要拿出來講就是說我們農業為什麼未老是沒有辦法解目前的外產或者是我們現在你開放移工可是這些移工他賣掉他都會變成他都會逃走"},{"start":515.99,"end":516.911,"text":"蔡易餘 蔡易餘 蔡易餘"},{"start":529.465,"end":530.486,"text":"主秘來稍微講一下就好"},{"start":557.884,"end":561.411,"text":"主席再給我30秒就好我剛剛講的都有聽到嘛"},{"start":563.923,"end":589.012,"text":"謝謝委員的指教這個部分在就業服務法裡面目前針對這種攔領的移工我們是考慮到說他有生活管理的責任的問題所以目前是一個移工一個雇主那這個部分如果要放寬讓他可以兼職的話就會衍生他在兼職的過程當中會有他的生活管理包括職災的發生或是逃逸的責任的歸屬這個都是細部問題啊對所以那個部分可能還要做一些研討這個問題就是拿出來檢討就好了啊就是說"},{"start":590.132,"end":613.72,"text":"做登記,類似外展的一個登記,登記完後他在兼職工作的時候責任由第二個僱主來負擔。這個部分可能還在需要演繹,包括我們的...沒關係,我是覺得你要演繹這個啦。你第一你一定要改觀,不要讓外流都是討厭的,都是在討厭外流,這第一你一定要改觀。第二你一定要改觀農業缺工的問題。農業這種季節先缺工這沒辦法。"},{"start":617.574,"end":617.594,"text":"好,謝謝"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}