{"error":false,"id":["154374"],"data":{"IVOD_ID":154374,"IVOD_URL":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154374","日期":"2024-06-27","會議資料":{"會議代碼":"聯席會議-11-1-36,15-2","會議代碼:str":"第11屆第1會期司法及法制、內政委員會第2次聯席會議","屆":11,"會期":1,"會次":2,"臨時會會次":null,"種類":"聯席會議","委員會代碼":[36,15],"委員會代碼:str":["司法及法制委員會","內政委員會"],"標題":"第11屆第1會期司法及法制、內政委員會第2次聯席會議"},"影片種類":"Clip","開始時間":"2024-06-27T11:41:07+08:00","結束時間":"2024-06-27T11:50:36+08:00","影片長度":"00:09:29","支援功能":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/767b6a9d27b3726c09cc0107abf97f6fda706b406df85b80e70b5822ad681b8933cbce93769d80bb5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"徐欣瑩","委員發言時間":"11:41:07 - 11:50:36","會議時間":"2024-06-27T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制、內政委員會第2次聯席會議（事由：併案審查\n（一）委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等16人擬具「原住民族委員會組織法第三條及第四條條文修正草案」案。\n（二）委員高金素梅等24人擬具「原住民族委員會組織法第三條及第四條條文修正草案」案。）","gazette":{"lineno":1046,"blocks":[["徐委員欣瑩：（11時41分）謝謝主席，本席請鍾副主委。"],["主席：請副主委。"],["鍾副主任委員興華：徐委員好。"],["徐委員欣瑩：副主委辛苦了，今天都是你在答詢。首先請教副主委，您認為今天審議的法案是不是典型的原住民自治議題？是或不是就好了。"],["鍾副主任委員興華：這是組織法，是原民會的組織法規。"],["徐委員欣瑩：那它算不算一種原住民自治的議題？"],["鍾副主任委員興華：當然，如果……"],["徐委員欣瑩：是嘛！很典型……"],["鍾副主任委員興華：在行政運作上原民自主、自行，還有獨立的預算。"],["徐委員欣瑩：對，我就問是或不是。剛剛我也聽到林委員質詢的時候說，您支持原住民自治嘛！"],["鍾副主任委員興華：長期目標。"],["徐委員欣瑩：你要表達支持嘛！"],["鍾副主任委員興華：支持。"],["徐委員欣瑩：如果不討論人事法規、行政院組織等等，您贊不贊成提案主委由山原、平原輪做的主張？"],["鍾副主任委員興華：跟委員報告，因為山原、平原是在早期……"],["徐委員欣瑩：我先瞭解您贊不贊成山原、平原輪做的主張？"],["鍾副主任委員興華：因為這樣的輪流主張也涉及到未來提名人任命的權力部分，即任用權。"],["徐委員欣瑩：對，那您贊不贊成？不要浪費我的時間，您贊不贊成，贊成或不贊成？"],["鍾副主任委員興華：以目前來講，目前原民會的推動還算順利，因為從剛剛委員……"],["徐委員欣瑩：好，所以您贊成嘛！目前提案的這種自治應該還算是蠻低度的自治吧？"],["鍾副主任委員興華：跟委員報告，因為自治是一個很龐雜的議題，可能要有配套的措施。"],["徐委員欣瑩：對啊！所以目前的提案都算比較低度的吧？我現在提強度更高的，就是由原住民自己選主委或是原住民的領袖，副主委，你的看法支不支持呢？"],["鍾副主任委員興華：這就涉及到憲法的層次。"],["徐委員欣瑩：所以你不敢講支不支持？還是你支持呢？"],["鍾副主任委員興華：以目前來講，我們算是在國家政府組織推行政務要直接對人民負責這樣一個憲政體制底下。"],["徐委員欣瑩：對嘛！所以你那你認不認同原住民自己選出主委或是原住民的領袖？"],["鍾副主任委員興華：原住民領袖都有，現在各族群都有。"],["徐委員欣瑩：那你指的是什麼？"],["鍾副主任委員興華：比如說像頭目、傳統領袖。"],["徐委員欣瑩：對，但是他沒有實質的政治權力。"],["鍾副主任委員興華：是。"],["徐委員欣瑩：如果原住民自己組成最高的議會，您的看法如何，同意嗎？"],["鍾副主任委員興華：我是同意，因為現在各族都有民族議會。"],["徐委員欣瑩：OK，你同意喔！"],["鍾副主任委員興華：比如說排灣族、卑南族、魯凱族都有民族議會在運作。"],["徐委員欣瑩：本席是想表達，原住民自治應該不是只有選出最高領袖還有最高議會，應該有更多原住民自治事項的問題，譬如教育、經濟、文化、語言等等，對此你講一下你的概念跟想法好不好？這個給你多一點時間，給你30秒。"],["鍾副主任委員興華：是，也是謝謝委員，我們的看法應該是相同的，因為就原住民語言的部分必須要自治，所以108年通過原住民族語言法，讓原住民族的語言成為國家的語言，也挹注很多的經費……"],["徐委員欣瑩：沒有，我指的是更多原住民自治事項，語言只是其中一項。"],["鍾副主任委員興華：對，包括教育的部分也有原住民族教育法，我們民族教育這個區塊……"],["徐委員欣瑩：對，對於我們推動原住民自治這些比較具體、實體事項的推動程序的規劃，你怎麼來推動？你是要整體推動還是採用分流立法？"],["鍾副主任委員興華：現在是採分流立法的方式，因為以目前推動的相關工作，包括所謂的鄉鎮市區長，像以山地原住民鄉鎮為例，所有的鄉鎮市區長一定要具有原住民身分，所以就鄉來講，它算是鄉自治的一個機制。"],["徐委員欣瑩：對啊！所以您現在所講的很多分流的推動，很多都是周邊的事物嘛？"],["鍾副主任委員興華：是。"],["徐委員欣瑩：那一些比較自治的核心事項你有沒有想過？"],["鍾副主任委員興華：有，跟委員報告，因為自治上次提到過……"],["徐委員欣瑩：那最核心的是什麼？"],["鍾副主任委員興華：五進五出在立法院，因為它涉及到整個行政區的劃分，這個也會面臨衝擊，比如說花蓮、臺東這兩個縣，因為都是原住民鄉鎮，所以會涉及到……"],["徐委員欣瑩：為什麼會五進五出啊？"],["鍾副主任委員興華：從89年就開始提出草案……"],["徐委員欣瑩：是因為沒有共識還是怎麼樣？還是不完備？"],["鍾副主任委員興華：它裡面有爭議的議題很多，我舉一個例子，在民族自治以後……"],["徐委員欣瑩：所以爭議的原因是？"],["鍾副主任委員興華：就一個行政區域來講，它的影響，比如說花蓮、臺東兩個縣可能就會不存在了，它如果要民族自治的話……"],["徐委員欣瑩：所以會影響到我們一般非原住民的意思？"],["鍾副主任委員興華：對，也會影響到。"],["徐委員欣瑩：所以這個需要比較久的時間，大家要有共識。"],["鍾副主任委員興華：包括我們在新竹就有2個鄉，它要脫離新竹縣，變成是這樣子……"],["徐委員欣瑩：好，OK。"],["鍾副主任委員興華：而且民族跟民族之間有一些重疊的地方。"],["徐委員欣瑩：所以怎麼樣具體推動而且可以落實，這個才是你們的挑戰，好不好？接著，因為時間不多了喔！","接下來本席要就原住民就業自治條例的部分來就教於您，行政院5月3號函告臺北、新北，對不對？你應該很清楚，有關原住民就業自治條例部分條文無效，雙北市政府分別在5月30及6月3號提起訴願，那行政院原民會也回應了，地方政府提出訴願將循程序進行，請問副主委無效的理由是什麼？"],["鍾副主任委員興華：跟委員報告，因為這個不是我督導的業務，我們請科長……"],["徐委員欣瑩：科長瞭解嗎？"],["李科長珮瑄：跟委員報告，因為雙北的那個自治條例，因為目前我們有原住民族工作權保障法，主要有第四條、第五條還有政府採購法的相關規定已經有規範了，所以牴觸的是這兩部法律。"],["徐委員欣瑩：牴觸了？"],["李科長珮瑄：是抵觸了原住民族工作權保障法以及政府採購法的相關規定。"],["徐委員欣瑩：好，那這樣本席就教您一下，原住民族工作權保障法第二十四條也有規定得標廠商應一律依差額人數乘以每個月基本工資來計算繳納代金，經過司法院大法官釋字第810號解釋是違憲，是違憲！而且特別提到最慢要於本解釋公布之日，是110年10月8日起，兩年內要依據這一個司法院解釋違憲的意旨要修正之。它2年內要修正，我們現在已經超過2年又8個月了，為什麼沒有修正？"],["李科長珮瑄：跟委員說明，我們目前這部法律已經送進立法院了……"],["徐委員欣瑩：已經兩年多了，還所謂送進立法院，那為什麼沒有審？什麼時候送進立法院的？"],["李科長珮瑄：今年2月的時候，行政院……"],["徐委員欣瑩：今年2月？今年2月也已經超過2年內，你今年2月已經超過2年4個月，才送進立法院？"],["李科長珮瑄：是，跟委員補充說明，去年就先送了……"],["徐委員欣瑩：所以過去這2年4個月在做什麼？"],["李科長珮瑄：去年在9月的時候已經送過，然後今年又再送第二次。"],["徐委員欣瑩：所以9月的時候沒有審完，是不是？完全沒審？那你們有沒有去拜託召委排案？執政黨每一個委員會也都有召委，是不是？我們最想知道你們的立場跟態度是什麼、究竟打算怎麼做？因為你們都回復說已經送立法院，這個答案我知道啊！但是就這句話，然後繼續躺在那，對不對？繼續躺，然後都一直過期，你到底有沒有真的想要做維護原住民族的工作權保障？"],["李科長珮瑄：跟委員報告，關於原住民的工作權保障，釋字第810號解釋的意旨是說2年內要儘速修正，在還沒有完成修正前應該要有一些配套的措施，現在如果我們針對……"],["徐委員欣瑩：重點我們是立法委員，但你一直還沒修正嘛？而且還拖那麼久！我現在就是在問為什麼拖那麼久？當然這個不是科長你的問題，副主委，你要加把勁吧？"],["鍾副主任委員興華：是。"],["徐委員欣瑩：是不是？"],["鍾副主任委員興華：好，這個部分的確是超過2年了，應該要在2年內處理……"],["徐委員欣瑩：2年又8個月，快3年了。"],["鍾副主任委員興華：是。"],["徐委員欣瑩：好啦！加油好不好？"],["鍾副主任委員興華：是，我們努力，然後就這個案子做推動，謝謝委員。"],["徐委員欣瑩：OK。"],["主席：接下來我們請張智倫委員、張智倫委員、張智倫委員，張智倫委員沒有來。","所有登記發言委員都已經發言完畢，詢答結束，委員質詢時要求提供的相關資料或以書面答復者，請相關機關儘速送交個別委員及本聯席會。","委員黃建賓、高金素梅、傅崐萁、翁曉玲、王美惠、吳琪銘、楊瓊瓔所提書面質詢，列入紀錄，刊登公報。並請相關機關以書面答復。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":176,"meet_id":"聯席會議-11-1-36,15-2","speakers":["吳宗憲","鄭天財Sra 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:553.978,"text":"兩年又八個月,快三年了。"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}