{"error":false,"id":["154389"],"data":{"IVOD_ID":154389,"IVOD_URL":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154389","日期":"2024-06-28","會議資料":{"會議代碼":"院會-11-1-20","會議代碼:str":"第11屆第1會期第20次會議","屆":11,"會期":1,"會次":20,"臨時會會次":null,"種類":"院會","標題":"第11屆第1會期第20次會議"},"影片種類":"Clip","開始時間":"2024-06-28T10:43:26+08:00","結束時間":"2024-06-28T10:59:19+08:00","影片長度":"00:15:53","支援功能":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/20593d2379a5c68ae591c98612fdae356cd03fb23edab3c9d6e0c0b79bf482f9bb9a8a83aa9af3e75ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"蘇清泉","委員發言時間":"10:43:26 - 10:59:19","會議時間":"2024-06-28T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"第11屆第1會期第20次會議（事由：一、對行政院院長報告施政方針繼續質詢。\n二、6月28日上午9時至10時為國是論壇時間。\n三、7月2日下午1時50分至2時30分為處理臨時提案時間。）","gazette":{"lineno":780,"blocks":[["蘇委員清泉：（10時43分）謝謝主席，我請卓院長。"],["主席：麻煩再請卓院長備詢。"],["蘇委員清泉：第一階段請經濟部，第二階段請農業部。"],["主席：現在要請經濟部備詢嗎？蘇委員，現在請經濟部？"],["蘇委員清泉：是。謝謝。"],["主席：麻煩請經濟部備詢。"],["卓院長榮泰：蘇委員好。"],["蘇委員清泉：好，卓院長辛苦了。"],["卓院長榮泰：不會。"],["蘇委員清泉：這兩天我到恆春，因為我常去核三廠，核三廠我差不多去過一、二十趟，核三廠的廠長我們都很熟稔，我去核三廠旁邊叫做大光里，大光里那裡一個議員的阿嬤過世，我就和這些民意代表、鄉長，恆春半島四個鄉鎮的鄉長跟一些主席，也有藍的也有綠的，他們討論後的結果，只有兩個，我想院長你要注意聽一下。他們說，我們在這裡和這個核三廠為鄰三十多年了，我們都沒意見，我們都同意延役，我們要的是什麼？他們要的是他們的福利要比較好，他們要的是他們的醫療要好一點的。譬如說我們恆春旅遊醫院，蘇貞昌那個時候將它改成旅遊醫院，他們希望能改回來部立醫院，請卓院長考慮一下，因為他們覺得旅遊醫院太狹隘了，醫院的存在就是要給當地居民使用，醫院有80%是服務當地的居民，外來、旅遊等有突發狀況的部分差不多占20%而已，所以他們希望改回來。他們有一個質疑就是：我們在這裡和核三廠這樣共伴三、四十年了，我們都沒有意見，評比也都不錯，也有做過兩次問卷調查，差不多有76%以上的百姓都沒有反對，都同意它延役，我們都沒意見，你們臺北這麼多意見，到底是在做什麼？","第二個，有一個部分更加嚴重，這個核三廠土地徵收是600公頃，圍起來的是400公頃，院長，你可能也不知道。現在這兩個爐子剛好在左邊角落，那裡占的面積很小，在那400公頃的土地上，現在光電業者已經迫不及待的在整理這些有草的地方，要去蓋光電板了，他們覺得為什麼這麼急，到底民進黨是跟光電業掛多深、到底是欠人家多少，還是到底是拿了多少？這是他們的質疑。關於這兩點，院長稍微思考一下，這是我替他們反映，這不是藍的、不是綠的，是在地的鄉親長輩講的。","請看下一張，這就是我們屏東車城的這塊地，你有看到嗎？這一大片以前是統一的，光電業卻弄成這樣，都是風飛沙，全部都「糜糜卯卯」。來，這是我們蘇貞昌說的屏鵝公路、最美麗的風景線，這樣叫最美麗的風景線？這種場地這麼大，或者是核三廠400公頃都蓋上光電板，所產生的電力一年差不多是三點多億度，那核三廠兩個爐子的產電量一年差不多一百七十幾億度，連尾數都不到，那如果要取代核三廠兩個爐子產生的電，這一種規模的差不多要60座，我們有那麼多的土地能接受這樣的蹂躪嗎？你再來看看，這個是我們內埔的東勢村、東片村，我都去看了，這在20年以後要怎麼復原？院長，這都是鋪水泥，有的都是砂石，就這樣弄下去，所以不是用那個壞的地，有的是不錯的地，像我們現在講的農一、農二，連農二也是這樣搞，所以要好好的考慮，不能這樣搞。","剛才我們賴士葆委員說得很辛苦，我看院長也是涼涼的回答他，我覺得大家都是為了臺灣好，大家都希望臺灣好，都希望我們臺灣可以往下發展，那核三廠除役要建一個最大的光電區，我剛才也跟院長報告，400公頃全部蓋滿也才三點多億度電，太少了！你看看這塊600公頃的地這麼漂亮，被徵收，然後把400公頃圍起來，所以我在這邊很誠懇的呼籲行政院。郭部長今天不在，我是很欽佩他，很尊敬他，他是一個業者、一個大老闆、一個董事長，賺了很多錢，跑來這裡當經濟部長，想要好好的發揮，一下子說不缺電，一下子說缺電，一下子說要核能，一下子說不要核能，一直轉來轉去，我覺得很失望。對於我們卓院長協調的能力，大家都很稱讚，所以我們是有條件來支持核三延役。"],["卓院長榮泰：第一個跟委員報告，核電廠40年的壽命是當時政府跟人民的契約，我們必須在這個信賴原則底下去做依法該做的事情，當然有相關的法律可以去做調整。不過，現在跟委員報告的是，依照核管法施行細則第十六條，整個除役25年，這個核三廠是不能做其他……流程要走25年，除役的流程才會走完，在這個過程當中，它不可以做其他不相關的使用，剛剛說的那個只是在廠區的外圍。另外，屏東有多處林相不佳的地區，現在因為整個考慮，它會回復做農用，但是有一些地力不佳的，它只要不是敏感地區，也不具有生態棲息地，將來還是有考慮做光電來使用，但是林相不佳的會回復，這個請委員提供資料，我們共同檢討，這個都是好的方向。"],["蘇委員清泉：台電昨天有提出一個，就是說如果在2點到10點自己停電1小時，1個月給他獎勵48塊獎勵金，我如果用醫生的立場，說這種話，這個可能要吃藥了，有這種荒唐的想法嗎？次長。"],["陳次長正祺：報告委員，這種需量反應台電已經做了幾十年，都是跟企業、用電大戶做，現在是推到住家去，是自願性的立場，這個是美國、日本都在做，如果要引進綠能的時候，本來這個需量的調節……如果像現在美國在做的，電動車的電也可以灌回給電網，這是一個試辦的性質，這不是說……"],["蘇委員清泉：核三廠只要降載，一部一號機降載的話，屏東市也跳電，小琉球也跳電，南港也跳電，板橋也跳電，總有一大堆理由，像松鼠、蛇、鳥等等，每一次講的理由都是荒誕不羈啦！聽起來都是很荒唐的，這個不要再當理由了啦！"],["陳次長正祺：這個是因為……"],["蘇委員清泉：小琉球20年，在連戰那個時代，第一條海底電纜過去，現在已經兩條了，用電量太大了，不夠嘛！所以跳電嘛！"],["陳次長正祺：是，所以配電系統我們現在已經盤點，第一個，人口成長很快；第二個，負載增加很多；第三個，設備比較老舊的會優先來更換它的配電系統。"],["蘇委員清泉：我們屏東有山、有水、有土地，屏東有水、有電，希望台積電！現在呢？有水，沒電，沒有台積電。今天台積電打臉我們，說它不願意來了，本來要來做封裝測試廠，我們很疼惜這塊土地，屏東的水很多，像伏流水、隘寮溪、二峰圳、東港溪，光是東港溪攔河堰一天就抽二十幾萬噸去高雄，高屏溪攔河堰也差不多抽30萬噸，伏流水一天可以有80萬噸，我非常深入去瞭解，跟屏科大教授。"],["陳次長正祺：報告委員，屏東很美麗，不會沒電啦！水也很多。"],["蘇委員清泉：核三廠停下來就缺電了，恆春半島的人們的想法，院長，我今天跟你說，你要聽進去。請經濟部回座，再來請農業部。這個中間我插播一下，我昨天晚上接到簡訊說食藥署長今天換人，昨天我們邱部長還在講說空穴來風，到底是怎樣？院長，食藥署吳署長。"],["卓院長榮泰：所有部會對其所屬主管的人事調動，我們都尊重部長，昨天他應該是在還沒有完成整個程序之前，所以他不想在那個時候做任何的證實，我想我體諒他的心情，也希望大家能夠瞭解，但是他應該是在完成程序之後，就照既定的程序來走。"],["蘇委員清泉：好，我們農業部這邊，我這裡要肯定一下農業部長，還有我們的漁業署張署長，院長，我當你的面稱讚他們，我們上次去看屏東生技園區的雞蛋銷毀情況，當時楊瓊瓔、我還有民眾黨張啓楷，我們對陳部長非常讚賞，因為他勇敢面對任何的事實，然後勇於承擔，而且都說實在話，說實在話很重要，我很不愛聽人家「烏龍踅桌」，所以陳部長，我要對你再次肯定。但是這次黑鮪魚的事情處理得不好，漁業署張署長，你要不要上來一下？不用？對於黑鮪魚轉成內銷，這十幾年來價格都還不錯，但是因為中西太平洋漁業委員會限制我們1年1,965公噸嘛？"],["陳部長駿季：1,965公噸。"],["蘇委員清泉：一千九百六十五公噸。所以抓到那裡就要停了，結果在那中間只有拍賣那一天叫人來作秀，然後叫廠商來相挺，1公斤拍賣一萬零三百塊，喔！天價！第一尾是三百多公斤，賣了三百多萬。但是從隔天開始，1公斤剩800、600，一直掉、掉、掉，掉到最後剩1公斤80、100，漁民向我反映、對我「姦撟」，我當天就通知部長和署長，他們馬上處理，結果處理得不漂亮啦！部長，那要怎麼辦？"],["陳部長駿季：我跟委員報告，因為我們有配額，所以過往我們到90%把資訊提供給漁民的時候，那個時間太短了，因為時間太短，有一些漁船已經出海，要去抓也不是，不抓也賠錢，所以這個部分我們的檢討就是，未來整個配額的分配先用時段來分配，分配的時候我們會加強我們整個通報的數量。"],["蘇委員清泉：院長，一千九百六十五噸很少欸！"],["陳部長駿季：對啊！"],["蘇委員清泉：還有鬼頭刀一萬六千多噸欸，還有大目鮪魚七萬多噸欸！"],["陳部長駿季：我跟委員報告，端午節之前的黑鮪魚本身品質比較好，所以我們會利用這樣的調控，讓漁民知道他的時間點，跟他抓的數量。"],["蘇委員清泉：一整年漁汛期兩個多月而已，希望我們的百姓、我們鄉親一整年都可以吃到高品質的黑鮪魚。"],["陳部長駿季：對。"],["蘇委員清泉：我們就是因為冷鏈不夠嘛，需要在零下幾十度……"],["陳部長駿季：45度。"],["蘇委員清泉：就是負45度以下的冷鏈不夠，我們的農業部、我們的漁業署在補助各個漁會建置冷鏈速度太慢，是不是品質也不夠？還是他們維護得不好？一千九百多噸，產量300條、400條一進來，價格掉到100塊，院長，這樣你聽得下去嗎？如果這樣幾十萬噸的要怎麼辦？"],["陳部長駿季：我是不是跟委員報告，我們現在東港的鹽埔地區已經成立了一個冷鏈，現在正在規劃興建，還沒蓋好之前我們會協調附近冷凍廠的部分。剛剛委員說的應該要負45°C，這個部分我們會優先協助建設。"],["蘇委員清泉：你要讓他們停，6月12號就不能抓，但是6月9號才發公文，三天，船都出去了，有的已經出去了，有的已經抓一半，抓到還要把牠丟掉，丟到海裡面，情何以堪啊？部長，哪有人這樣在搞的？你們有給人家補助嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：報告委員，當時我們就跟農業部有檢討過，未來對漁民的服務、通告、公告的時效要掌握得精確一點，不要造成大家的困擾。"],["蘇委員清泉：要給他們補助啦！"],["卓院長榮泰：我們深深地檢討，是。"],["蘇委員清泉：有的一出去都……"],["陳部長駿季：我跟委員報告，針對這個部分，我們有開始去規劃相關產業的輔導措施，至於這個措施，我相信我們會跟漁民好好討論，未來就這個部分怎麼樣做一個更好的精進作為。"],["蘇委員清泉：就是要對漁民補償一點啦！"],["陳部長駿季：對。"],["蘇委員清泉：然後，作秀的啦、遊行的不要做啦，那些錢省下來做基金啦！"],["卓院長榮泰：謝謝委員對漁民的關心，以及對核三廠的關心，我們一起去解決問題。謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝蘇清泉委員的質詢，謝謝卓院長的備詢。","接下來我們請登記第3號顏寬恒委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":26,"meet_id":"院會-11-1-20","speakers":["韓國瑜","江啟臣"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-06-28"],"gazette_id":"1136401","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1136401_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期第20次會議紀錄","content":"報告事項","agenda_id":"1136401_00001"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":8.265968750000003,"end":10.35846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":10.35846875,"end":11.691593750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":16.88909375,"en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說因為我們有配合的時候,所以過往我們在90%的時候在把這個資訊提供給漁民的時候,那個時間太長了,因為時間太長有人給一些基準已經出海了,"},{"start":769.529,"end":769.549,"text":"委員長"},{"start":786.877,"end":809.426,"text":"一千六九萬六十五噸,很少耶。對啊。還有那個幾條島一萬六千幾噸耶。還有那個大戶鮪魚七萬多噸耶。我跟委員報告齁,那個端午節進行的那個飛鮪魚本身的品質比較好。所以我們會利用這樣的一個調控齁,讓漁民知道他的時間點齁,跟他的抓的數量。"},{"start":810.083,"end":837.768,"text":"我們希望我們一整年,因為漁訓期兩個多月而已嘛。希望我們的百姓、我們鄉親一整年都可以吃到高品質的黑鮪吐露嘛。啊,我們是什麼?兩年不夠嘛。連下幾十度,連下六十、四十六十,四十五度以下的兩年不夠。我們的農業部、我們的漁業署在補助各個漁會來企這兩年,速度太慢。"},{"start":838.669,"end":847.776,"text":"是不是做品質也不夠,還是上面維護得不好。1900多噸,產量300條、400條一進來,價格掉到100塊。 院長你怎麼敢拖下去,如果要顧六萬噸要怎麼辦?"},{"start":854.949,"end":856.21,"text":"我要給他停。6月12日就不能抓。"},{"start":881.055,"end":894.488,"text":"月月19號在發公文,三天,全部都處理,有的已經處理,有的已經抓一半,抓一半的,抓到要把它丟掉,丟到海裡面,情何以堪啊,不領,靠人家這樣在錄的啦。"},{"start":896.497,"end":912.006,"text":"報告委員,當時我們就跟農業部有檢討過未來對漁民的服務、通告、公告的時效要掌握的精確一點,不要造成大家的困擾。我們深深的檢討。我跟委員報告,針對這個部分,我們有開始去規劃相關的產業的一個輔導的一個措施。那這個措施我相信我們會跟漁民來好好的討論,未來就這個部分怎麼樣做更好的一個精進的作為。"},{"start":925.779,"end":926.399,"text":"接下來我們請登記"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}