{"error":false,"id":["154390"],"data":{"IVOD_ID":154390,"IVOD_URL":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154390","日期":"2024-06-28","會議資料":{"會議代碼":"院會-11-1-20","會議代碼:str":"第11屆第1會期第20次會議","屆":11,"會期":1,"會次":20,"臨時會會次":null,"種類":"院會","標題":"第11屆第1會期第20次會議"},"影片種類":"Clip","開始時間":"2024-06-28T10:59:29+08:00","結束時間":"2024-06-28T11:15:35+08:00","影片長度":"00:16:06","支援功能":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/20593d2379a5c68ab32d8d3e5edc309d6cd03fb23edab3c9d6e0c0b79bf482f9a00f58aa63e905615ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"顏寬恒","委員發言時間":"10:59:29 - 11:15:35","會議時間":"2024-06-28T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"第11屆第1會期第20次會議（事由：一、對行政院院長報告施政方針繼續質詢。\n二、6月28日上午9時至10時為國是論壇時間。\n三、7月2日下午1時50分至2時30分為處理臨時提案時間。）","gazette":{"lineno":830,"blocks":[["顏委員寬恒：（10時59分）立法院韓院長、各位列席官員，大家好。請主席請行政院卓院長。"],["主席：麻煩再請卓院長備詢。"],["卓院長榮泰：顏委員好！"],["顏委員寬恒：院長好！院長，這是我們第一次的總質詢，我想在這邊跟院長討論一些民生議題，首先是電價的部分，我想請教卓院長的態度，台電從4月1號開始調漲電價，許多的房東也跟著調漲租金，電價從每度5元、6元至7元漲幅是20%到40%。政府是一體的，前內政部林右昌部長曾經允諾要修租屋定型化契約，明定出租人收取之電費不可以超出該租賃標的之每期電費總額，原來說5日就可以上路，但是如今卻跳票了；上次也有委員在這邊問到這個問題，院長您的回復說7月就會上路。我想民眾都非常的關心，尤其是青年學子、租屋族，是不是可以請院長簡單地說明一下現在的進度為何？我知道今天內政部部長沒有來，如果院長不清楚沒關係，但是請你說明一下對這件事情的態度。"],["卓院長榮泰：好，感謝委員對這個議題的重視，內政部林前部長所定的方向是正確的，我記得前一陣子劉部長在這裡答復的時候，他說會把後續完成；現在我會馬上跟內政部聯繫，叫他再定一個時間，向社會公告……"],["顏委員寬恒：期程，就是7月會不會上路？因為上一次你說7月可能就會上路。"],["卓院長榮泰：對，我們一定在這個時程完成。"],["顏委員寬恒：今天已經6月28日了。"],["卓院長榮泰：因為早一天完成，就是保障更多租屋者的安全……"],["顏委員寬恒：對、對、對，電價是全民關心的事情。"],["卓院長榮泰：是，謝謝！"],["顏委員寬恒：尤其是青年學子、租屋族，因為現在生活成本非常地高，電價一漲所有物價都會漲。"],["卓院長榮泰：是。"],["顏委員寬恒：那麼我們儘早邀請各部會針對租屋定型化契約的內容條款進行討論，好好把關就是對租屋族早一日的保障。"],["卓院長榮泰：好，謝謝委員！"],["顏委員寬恒：接下來我再請教，跟您討論的是我們中部民眾的需求，也要讓院長更加瞭解本席的選區，整個大臺中市、中部地區的用電需求，最大的火力發電廠在龍井，院長能不能承諾，臺中海線居民的用電需求是不是應該更受到保障？"],["卓院長榮泰：台中火力發電廠很長的時間一直是主力啊！現在我們持續把它改換成燃氣，希望有一天對地方的衝擊會小一點，當然它也穩定周遭的供電，甚至提供臺灣其他地區的穩定供電系統。"],["顏委員寬恒：對，這就是我要跟你討論的，現在火力發電廠在臺中有10部燃煤機組，正在興建2座燃氣機組，未來還要再興建4座燃氣機組，拆除4座燃煤機組，保留6部作緊急備用發電；儲氣槽的部分，從現在的5座要再增加4座，這是經濟部的部分，中火要增加9座燃氣機組。","我先聲明就是，一路以來我都支持用燃氣替代燃煤，因為可以減輕燃煤的污染，當地的鄉親也樂見用燃氣來取代，但是必須要實質地換，在備載能量不足的情況之下，燃煤隨時都可能會上場，民眾的疑慮就是我的疑慮，燃煤會不會變成常態？可能就會變成未拆除的6部燃煤機組在緊急的狀態之下隨時都會啟動，那就變成6加6部發電機組，原有的550萬瓩的發電量，現在用6部燃氣機組來取代變成810萬瓩，再加上備用的這6部燃煤機組，那麼臺中、中部整個空氣污染的情況會雪上加霜，也會更加嚴重。","因為0403的大地震，許多的電廠機組跳機面臨震後檢修，大潭、明潭電廠也無預警的故障、跳脫，備載容量過低，緊急向民間電廠購電，我擔心在供電網韌性不足的情況之下，我們原有備用的6部燃煤機組緊急使用會變成常態。院長，你可不可以針對緊急備用的構成要件在這邊說明？"],["卓院長榮泰：好，報告委員，所謂緊急備用的機組，因為緊急備用，所以絕不輕言啟動。"],["顏委員寬恒：什麼條件之下？"],["卓院長榮泰：現在我們也看不到任何必須考慮它緊急啟動的條件，目前都看不到。我們只說讓燃氣機組的時程能夠如期完成，甚至做更多其他多元的綠能發展等等，我們覺得這樣是滿足現在的需求。當然我們對於輸配電整個電網的韌性還要加強，經濟部已經投注相當多時間。"],["顏委員寬恒：我再請教，不只是中火5加9座儲存槽，中油在臺中港區現有的6座，2022年動工，26年要完工的2座，再加上外港區擴建4座，總共是12座，中油12座，中火9座，總共21座。未來整個臺中港有21座天然氣儲存槽，從戰略的角度來看，大家知道雞蛋不能放在一個籃子裡，不管是受到天災的影響、海運的影響，或者是兩岸局勢的影響，一旦發生任何危機將不堪設想。臺中港的居民、整個海線的居民生活在水深火熱當中、危機四伏，院長可不可以替當地的民眾考慮一下？你們應該召集各部會協商，研究怎麼樣修正、怎麼樣分散管理、怎麼樣讓儲氣槽能夠在整個中部地區分散建置，可不可以？"],["卓院長榮泰：是，所以我們現在全力開發第三接收站，明年應該可以進行初期的使用。"],["顏委員寬恒：是在哪裡？可不可以告訴我在哪裡？"],["卓院長榮泰：請次長答復。"],["陳次長正祺：桃園會有第三接收站，現在工程進度都如……"],["顏委員寬恒：我想要知道真的需要那麼多嗎？2加6加4，5加9，加起來21座都放在臺中港。既然桃園要做三接，這樣子臺中難道不能減少嗎？"],["陳次長正祺：其實我們未來希望燃氣50%為主軸，加上綠能30%，燃煤可以降到20%，以氣代煤是長期的政策。"],["顏委員寬恒：剛剛一開始我就說贊成增加燃氣，減少燃煤，但是我們從戰略的角度來看，你把21座儲存槽通通放在臺中港，臺中港不是杳無人煙，臺中港是海線人口最精華的地方。我今天在這邊提出來，要讓院長、部長真正知道臺中港現有的狀況，我也樂見院長、部長一起到臺中港。我相信你們也去過，但是近期整個城市的發展使得人口增加，這個可能是你們沒有考慮到的，所以我才想在這邊要求院長，並反映整個臺中港的狀況以及民眾的心聲、危機感，希望你們考量，跨部會研究是不是該減少或者該怎麼分散，可不可以？院長可以不可以跟部長在一個月之內給我……"],["卓院長榮泰：臺中的接收站我們就是考慮到它已經飽和，同時它也沒有能量再多負擔其他的，所以才全力開發第三接收站。"],["顏委員寬恒：你擔不擔心工安事故或者是其他的不特定因素導致危機發生？"],["卓院長榮泰：現在臺中的電廠或是其他的天然氣接收站，我認為經濟部跟所屬的中油、台電都必須強力維護它的安全……"],["顏委員寬恒：當然，沒有錯。好，我們就拿中火來看，中火在22年10月還有23年11月，煤倉還有輸煤帶多次發生火災。21座天然氣儲氣槽，假設在興建過程或者未來營運管理的過程當中發生任何工安意外，或者是因為極端氣候發生任何不可預測的狀況，勢必對整個地區、整個臺中港造成無法預估的災難。所以我才提出來，希望院長考量，不要讓民眾生活在無比的、危機四伏的壓力之下，可不可以？"],["陳次長正祺：我們可以把臺中港儲槽在工安方面所做的努力，在會後送個書面報告給委員。"],["顏委員寬恒：好。但是我要提醒，中火也是大家關注的，中火也常常發生工安事件，昨天又一例，又是它的輸煤帶發生了狀況，工人當下就過世了。"],["陳次長正祺：對，我們感到很遺憾。"],["顏委員寬恒：當然我們都很遺憾，我是提醒，儲氣槽這些東西未來不堪也不可以發生任何的工安意外。","再來我想請教，剛剛院長、次長都提到2025年燃氣的比例要高達50%，但是依照目前的期程來看，應該是穩定跳票中，目前的占比是39.57%，本席不想跟你討論能源政策，民眾要的是穩定、便宜的電，但是你們做的是成本昂貴、受到不確定因素影響程度高的電，你們有你們的政策規劃，甚至於背後有特定的能源廠商，民眾想管也管不了，但是現況就是不符合民意，這一點十分明確。我要強調，除了發電來源之外，加強變電所還有輸配電端的設備品質的維護更加重要，並以配電為核心，布建分散式的能量，加強電網韌性，減少超高壓變電所及電網的擴充，將重心放在電力需求面的管理。目前已經進入夏日用電高峰期，很多地區無預警的停電也變成常態，像昨天板橋又發生了無預警的大跳電，我不曉得這一次是松鼠、鴿子，還是什麼小動物是跳電的元兇，又要把責任推給牠們。我要告訴大家，民眾在毫無防備的情況之下遭到這樣的情況，輕則家電設備損壞，重則廠商、公司的生產線停擺，機械設備整組壞掉，行政院一直強調臺灣不缺電，是電網不夠強韌，電網過於老舊，會造成整區大跳電，我現在想要請教，台電的強化電網韌性計畫未來十年要投入5,645億，是整體為臺灣電網把脈的強韌計畫，但是我看到其中臺中市兩年占不到50億，1,000億裡面不到5%，要全面提升供電穩定，中火最大的電廠在臺中，臺中市人口第二多，但是整個把脈的強韌計畫，還有老舊電網更新的預算配比占不到5%，這是不是很可笑？我不曉得是什麼原因會讓臺中市的占比這麼小。臺中市尤其是海線是鹽害重點防治區，中火在這裡，污染也在這裡，更應該增加更多的配電設備、紅外線的檢測還有各項的預防的巡視，及早發現設備的老舊、疲乏、弱點，然後來安排更換，避免因事故發生停電或造成更大的危險，這才是重點。我想請教院長，能不能要求台電承諾加強海線的電力維護？可不可以？"],["卓院長榮泰：謝謝委員，跟委員報告，十年花5,645億的這件事情，我跟郭部長曾經討論過，我希望能夠縮短時程，提高效率，做得更快、更多，我們如果能夠縮短時程，或許可以節省更多的經費，那我們願意用獎勵的措施，鼓勵所有的人來節省，來提早完成這件事情，所以整個的內容應該會重新調整。"],["顏委員寬恒：好，院長，我在這裡有三個重點，我再跟你說一下，第一個就是我剛剛提到海線是鹽害的重點區域，這部分要加強防鹽害設備，加強礙子清洗；第二、本席的選區也就是中火的所在地，電纜、電線地下化的比率要提高，為什麼要地下化？就是地下化才能減少鹽害侵蝕這些輸配電設備，院長，這是非常重要的；第三、中火在海線、在臺中，但是臺中市市民常常深受停電之苦，這是非常諷刺的，我想拜託院長檢討台電對海線居民的用電保障，這三點非常的重要。我知道時間有限，那我在這邊也要跟院長說明一下，下一次的交通組質詢我也會跟你再做更詳細的報告，就是臺中大肚的和美大橋，它可以銜接國道3號、和美交流道，但現在的問題就是，大肚溪端……"],["卓院長榮泰：大肚和……"],["顏委員寬恒：大肚端的交通會變成一個非常嚴重的瓶頸，這個部分我會把計畫、在下一次的交通組質詢我會更詳盡地提出，但是希望，因為也需要經濟部的支持，我們要利用防汛道路、利用堤防這邊做為疏散大肚區居民南北交通的一個重要路線，好不好？"],["卓院長榮泰：好，再請委員指教。"],["顏委員寬恒：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝顏寬恒委員的質詢、謝謝卓院長的備詢。麻煩一下經濟部就把顏委員所索取的資料送給顏委員，謝謝。","接下來我們請登記第4號馬文君委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":26,"meet_id":"院會-11-1-20","speakers":["韓國瑜","江啟臣"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-06-28"],"gazette_id":"1136401","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1136401_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期第20次會議紀錄","content":"報告事項","agenda_id":"1136401_00001"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":0.4697187500000001,"end":0.77346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start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個緊急啟動的這個條件目前都看不到我們只說對這個燃氣機組的時程能夠讓它如期完成甚至做更多其他多元綠能的發展等等目前我們覺得這樣是滿足現在的需求的"},{"start":341.449,"end":367.368,"text":"當然我們對於輸配電的整個電網的韌性還要加強,這個經濟部已經投注了相當多的時間。我再請教,不只是中火的5加9座的這個儲存槽,這個中火的部分,現有的6座,台中港區現有的6座,2022年動工的26年要完工的2座,再加上外港區擴建4座,總共就是12座。"},{"start":368.485,"end":395.556,"text":"中油的部分12座,中火的部分9座,總共21座。未來整個台中港有21座的天然氣儲存槽。從戰略的角度來看,大家要知道,雞農不能放在港前啊。不管是受到天候的影響,海運的影響,或者是兩岸局勢的影響,一旦發生任何的危機,將不堪設想。台中港居民,整個海線的居民,生活在水深火熱當中危機四伏。"},{"start":396.479,"end":415.519,"text":"院長您可不可以替我們當地的民眾考慮一下應該召集各部會去做一個協商做一個研究要怎麼樣去修正怎麼樣的分散管理怎麼樣的讓主計朝的部分能夠在整個中部地區做一個分散的建制可不可以"},{"start":416.327,"end":433.883,"text":"所以我們現在全力在開發第三接收站明年他就應該有可以初期的使用是在哪裡請問可不可以告訴我在哪裡在桃園桃園這邊會有第三接收站那個東西就現在工程進度都我想要知道就是真的需要那麼多嗎"},{"start":435.435,"end":438.216,"text":"其實我們未來希望以燃氣為50%為主軸那麼加上這個綠能30%燃煤可以降到20%以氣代煤這是長期的政策"},{"start":460.233,"end":477.185,"text":"我贊成我剛剛一開始我就說我贊成我增加燃氣減少燃煤但是我們從戰略的角度來看你把21座的儲存槽通通放在台中港台中港不是鳥無人煙台中港是海線人口最精華的地方"},{"start":478.397,"end":493.445,"text":"所以我就是今天在這邊提出來要讓院長部長讓你們真正知道臺中港的現有的狀況我也樂見院長部長一起來到臺中港我相信你們也去過但是近期的發展整個城市的發展"},{"start":494.656,"end":494.676,"text":"﹚顏寬恒"},{"start":515.126,"end":542.931,"text":"議員長可不可以跟部長一個月之內給我一個...我們就是考慮到他已經飽和而同時他也沒有能量再多負擔其他所以才去全力的開發...那你擔不擔心公安事故或者是其他的不特定因素危機的發生?就現狀在台中的電廠或是他的天然氣的接收站我認為經濟部跟所屬中油台電都必須強力去維護他的安全當然啊沒有錯好我們就拿中油來看啦齁"},{"start":545.872,"end":569.694,"text":"中火在22年的10月還有23年的11月它的那個梅倉還有梅倉對不對還有那個蘇梅的那個蘇梅袋也都多次發生火災那我們儲氣槽"},{"start":571.48,"end":595.735,"text":"天然氣儲氣槽21座假設在興建的過程或是未來營運管理的過程當中發生任何公安的意外或者是因為極端氣候或者發生了任何不可預測的狀況那勢必對整個地區整個台中港發生的無法無法預估會發生什麼樣的災難所以我才在這邊提出來希望院長做一個考量"},{"start":596.716,"end":623.149,"text":"那不要讓我們的民眾生活在這種無比的壓力之下危機四伏的壓力之下可不可以我們可以把這個我們在台中港除潮這方面所做的公安方面的努力在會後送個書名報告給委員但是我要提醒啦就是說中火也是大家關注的那中火他也常常發生這些公安昨天昨天又一例昨天又一例又是他的書沒帶"},{"start":624.468,"end":624.848,"text":"剛剛院長提到了就是"},{"start":647.062,"end":672.259,"text":"部長您也提到燃氣的比例要高達50%2025但是依照目前的期程來看應該是穩定跳票中目前的比例佔比是39.57本期不想跟你討論這個能源政策民眾要的是穩定便宜的電但是你們做的是成本昂貴受到不確定因素影響程度高的電"},{"start":673.311,"end":687.944,"text":"您們有您們的政策規劃甚至於背後有特定的能源廠商民眾想管也管不了但是現況就是不符合民意這一點十分明確那我要強調就是說除了發電來源之外"},{"start":689.718,"end":707.434,"text":"加強變電所還有輸配電端的設備品質的維護更加重要,並以配電為核心,部件分散式的能量加強電網的韌性,減少超高壓變電所及電網的擴充,將重心放在電力需求面的管理。"},{"start":708.134,"end":733.261,"text":"目前已經進入夏日的用電高峰期那很多地區無預警的停電也是變成常態像昨天板橋又發生了大跳電無預警的大跳電那我不曉得這一次是碰氣還是魂叫還是什麼又是什麼小動物變成這個跳電的元兇又要把責任推給他們我要告訴大家就是說"},{"start":734.201,"end":737.444,"text":"民眾在毫無防備的情況之下遭受到這樣的情況,輕則家電設備損壞,重則這個廠商公司的生產線停擺。"},{"start":745.299,"end":768.016,"text":"一切設備整組排料料那我們行政院一直強調說臺灣不缺電是電網不夠強韌電網過於老舊那會造成整區大跳電我現在想要請教就是說臺電的強化電網韌性計畫未來10年要投入5645億是整體臺灣電網把脈的強硬計畫但是我看到這裡面臺中市"},{"start":774.555,"end":797.831,"text":"兩年占不到50億一千億裡面不到5%那要全面提升供電穩定你中火最大的電廠在台中台中是人口第二大但是整個把脈的強硬計畫還有老舊電網更新的這些預算配比占不到5%"},{"start":799.486,"end":816.134,"text":"這是不是很可笑?我不曉得是什麼原因會讓台中市的占比這麼小?台中市尤其是海線是沿海重點的防治區。中國在這裡,污染也在這裡。更應該增加更多的配電設備、紅外線的檢測還有各項的這樣的一個預防的巡視。及早發現設備的老舊"},{"start":822.796,"end":846.401,"text":"的疲乏弱點然後來安排更換避免因事故發生停電或者是造成更大的危險這才是重點我想請教院長能不能要求臺電承諾加強海線的電力維護可不可以謝謝委員跟委員報告10年花5645億的這件事情我跟郭部長曾經討論過我希望能夠縮短時程"},{"start":848.194,"end":851.255,"text":"院長,我在這裡有三個重點,我再跟你說一下。第一個就是我剛剛提到海線是沿海的重點區域。"},{"start":875.52,"end":893.746,"text":"﹚議員"},{"start":897.669,"end":908.765,"text":"第三點火力化電廠中火在海線在台中但是台中市民常常深受停電之苦停電之苦"},{"start":909.406,"end":936.571,"text":"這是非常諷刺的這三點我想要拜託院長檢討臺電對海線居民的用電保障這三點非常的重要我在時間有限那我在這邊也要跟院長跟你說明一下下一次的交通組我也會跟你再做更詳細的報告就是臺中大渡的和美大橋它可以銜接我們的國道3號和美交流道但是現在的問題大渡端的"},{"start":939.377,"end":966.408,"text":"謝謝顏寬"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}