{"error":false,"id":["154396"],"data":{"IVOD_ID":154396,"IVOD_URL":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154396","日期":"2024-06-28","會議資料":{"會議代碼":"院會-11-1-20","會議代碼:str":"第11屆第1會期第20次會議","屆":11,"會期":1,"會次":20,"臨時會會次":null,"種類":"院會","標題":"第11屆第1會期第20次會議"},"影片種類":"Clip","開始時間":"2024-06-28T15:56:44+08:00","結束時間":"2024-06-28T16:12:32+08:00","影片長度":"00:15:48","支援功能":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/20593d2379a5c68a3f43254f33888fee6cd03fb23edab3c9084592ae7b5b568bea997af55ec8e5e15ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林德福","委員發言時間":"15:56:44 - 16:12:32","會議時間":"2024-06-28T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"第11屆第1會期第20次會議（事由：一、對行政院院長報告施政方針繼續質詢。\n二、6月28日上午9時至10時為國是論壇時間。\n三、7月2日下午1時50分至2時30分為處理臨時提案時間。）","gazette":{"lineno":432,"blocks":[["林委員德福：（15時57分）謝謝主席、江副院長，是不是請行政院卓院長？"],["主席：請卓院長備詢。"],["卓院長榮泰：林委員好。"],["林委員德福：卓院長你好。因為近來有一些像食安、缺藥的問題屢屢發生，讓很多的醫療基層非常不滿，媒體也報導食藥署署長吳秀梅即將離任，外傳新署長改由中國醫藥大學藥學院的院長莊聲宏教授接任。卓院長，你對莊聲宏教授是否有信心他能夠勝任？有沒有信心？"],["卓院長榮泰：跟委員報告，部會首長轄下的主管，我們通常是尊重首長對這個人的瞭解和認識，將來是他自己指揮，跟他自己配合。"],["林委員德福：瞭解，我是說食藥署署長這樣的人事案其實很重要。"],["卓院長榮泰：是。"],["林委員德福：講實在話過去吳秀梅擔任署長的時候，我經常在基層跑，很多基層的民眾對他種種的作為非常非常地不滿。這次換莊聲宏教授，他是中國醫藥大學藥學院的院長，現在面臨的問題，當然缺藥的問題很嚴重，那你認為這樣的人事案，像缺藥的問題，要多少時間讓他來做一些處理？因為這個很重要，缺藥啊！"],["卓院長榮泰：這個人事案的整個流程已經走完了，那……"],["林委員德福：那你認不認同，就是對他有沒有信心？對莊聲宏。"],["卓院長榮泰：第一個，尊重邱部長的選擇。"],["林委員德福：對。"],["卓院長榮泰：再來，既然是一個團隊，我們就要讓團隊整體往前走，彼此要能夠有默契，要能夠有很好的團隊觀念、精神而合作。"],["林委員德福：那你認為缺藥的問題在多少時間裡面就應該要把它解決掉？不要經常缺這個藥、缺那個藥，很多民眾到醫院去要這個藥也沒有、要那個藥也沒有，你說怎麼辦，對不對？這個是跟健康直接、第一有關的耶！卓院長，你有什麼看法？"],["卓院長榮泰：不管是輸液還是藥，現在都有一些問題存在。"],["林委員德福：對。"],["卓院長榮泰：就輸液，我們現在已經進國外專案進口，也從國內其他小廠希望鼓勵他們生產。另外，就原來生產的這個大廠它能不能在短時間內回復，這個都是未來衛福部食藥署要去做的事情。"],["林委員德福：其實卓院長，你應該交代他們，該給人家一點利潤還是要給……"],["卓院長榮泰：應該的。"],["林委員德福：問題就是你一直砍，砍到人家不願意做，這才是癥結點。不願意做，你就缺藥！問題的癥結點是在這裡，最嚴重的問題！我認為你身為院長，應該要求一定要解決這個問題。多少時間可以解決？你告訴我！"],["卓院長榮泰：這個是相當……"],["林委員德福：這是民眾關心的事情，不是跟你沒有關係啊！"],["卓院長榮泰：這是相當專業的問題，我想等到新的食藥署長上任之後，我會跟部長和他一起好好地研究現在遇到的這些問題，我們真的誠實面對問題……"],["林委員德福：對啊！"],["卓院長榮泰：再提出一個可行的方式來向國人報告，儘快來做……"],["林委員德福：對啦！要增加一點錢給人家，問題解決最重要！要面對問題、探討問題，看怎麼去解決，這和人民的健康有直接的關係耶！好不好？"],["卓院長榮泰：好的，謝謝委員。"],["林委員德福：卓院長，接下來要跟你討論一些離岸風電躉購費率與國產化的問題。2024年經濟部主導離岸風電第三階段的區塊開發已出現0元競標價格，經濟部說離岸風電20年躉購絕無多付9,000億，既然如此，就請經濟部告訴本席，離岸風電的躉購，政府會比競標價格多付多少錢？"],["陳次長正祺：報告委員，這個躉購費率剛開始的時候因為我們完全沒有經驗，需要請開發商來，所以那是參考國際間，尤其英國等等的模式，一開始我們提供一個躉購費率，接下去就變成自由市場競標，等到競標的時候，因為我們已經有第一期示範情況的結果，開發商有了信心，自然就會競價，競價的時候標案都非常便宜，有的就接近0元，躉購的時候因為不一樣，那是第一開始的時候，總是要投入一些成本。"],["林委員德福：經濟部有關離岸風電的新聞稿寫道：藉躉購價格打好產業基礎，遴選機制帶動基礎設施建立，並引進國外技術建構國內產業，發展離岸風電本土供應鏈，並扶植我國產業進軍亞太市場。2022年監察院調查報告指出：大彰化東南及西南第一階段離岸風電之水下基礎共需要111座，最終國產化實際上僅有6座而已，高達94.6%、105座之基地下的基礎均由國外進口。有關離岸風電國產化成效不佳的問題，監察院已糾正了經濟部，經濟部的新聞稿說：國產化具約束力並有罰則，絕非柔性要求，業者應於承諾年度如期如質達成國產化承諾目標及風場建置，若未如期履約，則依履約保證金及躉購費率等嚴格違約罰則機制處理。本席當然支持發展再生能源，也支持離岸風電國產化，但是離岸風電整個工程進度嚴重落後，國產化也低於預期，希望卓院長能夠明確裁示，只要離岸風電無法達成國產化的目標，就應該依比例檢討離岸風電的躉購電價。"],["卓院長榮泰：光電的電價從一開始到……"],["林委員德福：這不是光電……"],["卓院長榮泰：已經降價很多了。"],["林委員德福：是離岸風電。"],["卓院長榮泰：對，一樣。我們一開始離岸風電也是一樣，我說的兩個原則是，一開始會有很多的基礎建設，我們也希望能夠做國內技術的升級，但在這個過程當中，也發現一些困難跟沒有達到預期的效果，現在……"],["林委員德福：其實一開始問題很多啦！為什麼？因為當初等於躉購就是議價，先議價七成，後面的三成再來公開招標，公開招標一度標多少？2塊2毛2！躉購多少？5塊8毛4，等於是5塊8毛5啦！幾乎啦！你看落差多大！結果我問前經濟部部長沈榮津，他跟我說因為要國產化。實際上國產化的比率根本就很低，幾乎都是半成品進來就栽下去，對不對？次長，你有什麼看法？"],["陳次長正祺：報告委員，國產化其實還有相當的成就啦！因為我們國產化的範圍非常大，我們並不是要求他技術移轉，而是讓我們的在地供應鏈可以加入開發商的整個供應鏈，未來這些開發商到國際間去做離岸風電的時候，我們的供應鏈都可以跟著去，目前已經有一些實際的案例了。"],["林委員德福：問題是你給他一度是5塊8毛5，那我們公開招標的時候是標2塊2毛2，落差太大。"],["陳次長正祺：報告委員，實務上這些當時有標到躉購費率的業者，他也去參加公開競標，所以他的成本並不是表面上看到的5塊8毛5跟2塊2，他其實之間有一些財務上的調配，總而言之是政府跟開發商跟供應商跟在地供應鏈大家都多贏的結果，這是我們期待的一個目標。"],["林委員德福：民進黨的整個能源政策是國王的新衣，裝睡的人是叫不醒，自以為感覺良好，其實連美國商會也都質疑民進黨的能源政策，尤其童子賢董事長日前談及臺灣能源政策時表示，綠能有間歇性發電的缺點，應攜手核能各占臺灣發電比例30%，讓不排碳發電合計到60%，這是臺灣能源的黃金比例，可以追上先進國家的水準。童子賢直言臺灣能源政策不能改變的原因，無非是原來非核家園的口號來卡住了，為了要順應那個口號，就一切東西都要卡來卡去。他說臺灣本來可以大舉進步，就是因為把核能廢掉，而綠能又追不上原來設定的目標，他希望談論能源政策時政治味道越淡越好，中性看待產業需求和民生的需求。","本席支持綠能發展，台電火力全開，臺灣2050淨零排碳我看恐怕是天方夜譚，本席建議卓內閣、賴政府儘速召開能源國是會議，把所有真實數據全部都攤開來，讓全民知道，該滾動式調整能源結構，就運用核能幫助達成2050年淨零排碳的目標，卓院長你有什麼看法？"],["卓院長榮泰：再跟委員報告，非核家園我早上說過了，它是在環境基本法第二十三條裡面訂的，政府應該訂定計畫，朝向非核家園……"],["林委員德福：這個不可以改嗎？現實核能也是綠能耶！"],["卓院長榮泰：這個法現在是存在的，而且是委員在……"],["林委員德福：那個本來就可以改啊！"],["卓院長榮泰：2002年就訂，到現在沒有改，現在是沒有修、沒有改，所以這是一個現行的法令。再來現在要經過社會有共識，核能發電達到30%……"],["林委員德福：百分之七、八十都有共識啦！只不過……"],["卓院長榮泰：30%應該是現在的社會共識，還要很大的去努力，能不能達到我都覺得不一定，但是這是一個未來可以討論的，也許新的核能技術有一天改變，是我們現在不知道的技術……"],["林委員德福：遙遙無期啦！"],["卓院長榮泰：那是未來的事情，所以我常說一句話，未來的核能解決不了今天的問題。"],["林委員德福：其實你要達到2050年淨零排碳是天方夜譚，照你們現在整個電的操作方式，真的……","關於學校電價的補貼，台電表示凍漲政策不變，但電費差額會改由各部會編列相關的預算，不再由台電來吸收。臺大校長表示一旦漲電費，對學校是嚴重的負擔，影響經費、教學研究的品質、師生的服務，教育經費法定下限明定前三年度決算歲入淨額平均值23%。本席認為窮不能窮教育、苦不能苦孩子，本席已提出教育經費編列與管理法修正草案，明定電費補助款不要計入教育經費的預算，讓更多教育經費用於學生身上，希望卓院長不要讓上漲的電價吃掉學生的教育預算，你有什麼看法？"],["卓院長榮泰：次長回答一下。"],["陳次長正祺：報告委員，我們的想法是讓台電的營運能夠更透明……"],["林委員德福：更透明漲價，學校……"],["陳次長正祺：並不會漲價，我們只是把這個預算編列，由相關主管機關來編列這個預算，該補助就補助，但是不會讓原來的用電戶……跟這個漲價是沒有關係的。"],["卓院長榮泰：報告委員，台電長年以來擔負了很多的政策補貼跟政策目標，所以希望能夠回到目的事業主管機關，就它所屬的這些相關團體或是單位去做一些電費的計算，這個是讓台電能夠好好經營下去的一個企業精神。"],["林委員德福：所以民進黨政府高估再生能源發展的速度，又低估了AI用電需求的成長，放棄便宜的核電不用，選擇一度3到4元更貴、更髒的火力發電。本席現在說的數據是台電提供2023年燃氣發電的購電成本每度3.62元，核能每度1.3元。如果2023年台電整個核能發電的電量跟2015年一樣為351億度，則可以減少使用天然氣發電，少虧損400億，這400億等同於113年文化部300億的預算，再加上未來要成立的百億癌症新藥的基金，本席不反對發展再生能源，2025年再生能源20%的目標已確定是跳票的，經濟部下修的占比目標是15.5%，本來2025年要到20%，但是現在下修到15.5%。國際認可核能為綠電，國際能源總署強調世界需要核電來減少碳排放，美、日、韓都大舉發展核電，難道民進黨的能源政策不需要做通盤的檢討嗎？你認為要不要？"],["卓院長榮泰：我們這幾年來發展綠能，所以很多世界的大廠，包括設立資料中心，它來臺灣設廠就是指定要用綠電，如果我們沒有這幾年的發展，這些大廠是不可能選擇要來臺灣的。所以我們應該……"],["林委員德福：所以你認為電全部是100%……"],["卓院長榮泰：不是，請委員一起支持我們，還是要多元發展綠電，多元發展綠電，我們還是能夠穩定供電。"],["林委員德福：大家都清清楚楚的，為什麼現在經常很多地方都在跳電。"],["卓院長榮泰：那是因為電網韌性不好。"],["林委員德福：再怎麼樣都是講電網的韌性化。"],["卓院長榮泰：我要求能夠縮短時間改善電網的韌性。"],["林委員德福：其實我認為這跟缺電是有直接關係的，下次其他的部分再跟院長來探討。"],["卓院長榮泰：是，謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝林委員、謝謝卓院長。","下一位我們請黃國昌委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":88,"meet_id":"院會-11-1-20","speakers":["韓國瑜","江啟臣","賴士葆","蘇清泉","顏寬恒","馬文君","謝衣鳯","丁學忠","郭昱晴","陳素月","黃秀芳","蔡其昌","張啓楷","林德福","黃國昌"],"page_start":27,"meetingDate":["2024-06-28"],"gazette_id":"1136401","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1136401_00002","1136401_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期第20次會議紀錄","content":"施政質詢\n對行政院院長報告施政方針繼續質詢─ 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這個部會首長的轄下的主管我們通常是尊重首長他在對這個人的瞭解和認識但將來是他自己指揮跟他自己配合瞭解 我是說這些食藥署長這項人事案其實很重要因為過去講實在話吳秀梅署長擔任的時候很多基層的民眾我經常就在基層跑他們對他種種的作為非常非常的不滿"},{"start":96.345,"end":123.471,"text":"那這次換莊昇宏教授他是中國醫學院的這個院長那當然我們希望說現在面臨的問題當然缺藥的問題很嚴重那你認為像這樣的一個人事案你像缺藥的問題要多少時間讓他來做一些處理因為這個很重要啊"},{"start":124.65,"end":132.968,"text":"因為我覺得這個人事案這個流程已經走了。已經走完了。那你認不認同就是對他有沒有信心對莊昇宏"},{"start":135.131,"end":163.861,"text":"第一個尊重邱部長的選擇再來既然是一個團隊我們就要讓團隊整體往前走就彼此要能夠有默契要能夠很好的團隊觀念精神合作那你認為缺藥的問題應該在多少時間裡面就應該要把它解決掉你不要經常缺這個藥缺那個藥很多民眾他們到醫院去要這個藥也沒有要那個藥也沒有你說怎麼辦對不對這個是跟健康直接第一關係的"},{"start":165.507,"end":188.664,"text":"陳委員長你有什麼看法不管是輸液還是藥現在都有一些問題存在輸液我們現在已經從國外的進口專案進口也從國內其他小廠希望鼓勵他們生產另外就原來這個生產的大廠他能不能在短時間的回復這個都是未來衛福部食藥署要去工作的事情其實齁陳委員長你應該要交代他們"},{"start":190.138,"end":201.707,"text":"該給人家一點利潤還是要給問題就是你一直砍砍到人家不願意做嘛這個才是癥結點那不願意做你就缺藥問題癥結點是在這裡最嚴重的問題我認為你身為院長這個問題你要去要求一定要解決這個問題多少時間可以解決你告訴我"},{"start":211.648,"end":223.482,"text":"這個是相當專業的問題我想等到新的食藥署長上來之後我會跟部長跟他一起好好的研究現在遇到的這些問題我們真的誠實面對問題再提出一個"},{"start":226.82,"end":227.2,"text":"總院長我請教你"},{"start":244.468,"end":248.691,"text":"因為今天要跟你討論一些離岸風電短購的匯率與國產化問題。2024年經濟部主導離岸風電第三階段的區塊開發以出現0元的競標價格。經濟部說離岸風電20年短購絕無"},{"start":265.521,"end":275.639,"text":"多付9000億。既然如此,那就請經濟部告訴本席,離岸方店的短購會比競標價格政府要多付多少錢?"},{"start":277.31,"end":300.148,"text":"報告委員,這個准購費率剛開始的時候,因為我們完全沒有經驗,需要請開發商來,所以那個是參考國際間,尤其英國等等他的模式。一開始我們提供一個准購費率,接下去呢就變成自由市場競標,等到競標的時候,因為我們已經有第一期的這個示範的情況的結果之後,開發商有了信心,他自然就競價。"},{"start":300.708,"end":311.305,"text":"﹗"},{"start":312.506,"end":319.489,"text":"進一步這個離岸風電這個新聞稿寫到借短購價格打好產業的基礎,臨選機制帶動整個基礎的建設的一個建立,並引進國外技術建構國內產業發展離岸風電本土的供應鏈,並扶植我國產業進軍亞太市場。那2022年這個監察院調查報告指出大彰化"},{"start":340.517,"end":345.328,"text":"東南以及西南第一階段的離岸封建之水下的基礎"},{"start":350.233,"end":350.453,"text":"經濟部新聞稿"},{"start":379.722,"end":399.849,"text":"說這個國產化具有約束力並有罰則絕非柔性的要求那業者應於承諾年度如期如值達成國產化承諾的目標及封廠的建置若未如期履約則依履約保證金以及等購的匯率等嚴格違約來罰則"},{"start":401.65,"end":425.464,"text":"那機制的處理那本席當然支持說發展再生人員也支持離岸風電國產化但是離岸風電整個工程的進度嚴重的落後國產化也第一議期希望卓院長能夠明確的才是只要離岸風電無法達成國產化的目標就應該依比例檢討離岸風電能夠的電價"},{"start":429.468,"end":430.208,"text":"其實一開始他問題很多啦 為什麼"},{"start":453.427,"end":471.122,"text":"因為當初他有等於等過就是議價先議價七成後面的三成再來公開招標公開招標一度標多少兩塊兩毛二等過多少五塊八毛四等於是五塊八毛五幾乎啦"},{"start":472.022,"end":485.228,"text":"你看落差多大。結果我問全經濟部的部長沈榮金他跟我說因為要國產化實際上的國產化根本就很低啊幾乎都是半成民進來就摘下去啊"},{"start":489.163,"end":511.582,"text":"國產化其實還有相當的成就啦因為我們的國產化的範圍非常大我們並不是要求他技術移轉而是讓我們的在地供應鏈可以加入開發商的整個供應鏈未來這些開發商到國際間去做離岸風電的時候我們的供應鏈都可以跟著去目前已經有些實際的問題是你給他一度是五塊八碼五"},{"start":512.202,"end":537.939,"text":"那我們公開招標那時候是標2塊2毛2,落差太大。報告委員,實務上這些當時有標到滾購費率的業者,他也去參加公開競標,所以他的成本並不是表面上看到5塊8毛5跟2塊2,他其實他之間有一些財務上的調配,總而言之是政府跟開發商跟供應商跟在地供應業大家都多贏的結果,這是我們期待的一個目標。"},{"start":539.226,"end":560.835,"text":"民進黨的整個能源政策是國防的心意。裝睡的人是叫不醒。自以為感覺良好,其實連美國商會也都質疑民進黨的能源政策。尤其童子賢董事長日前的談及臺灣能源政策時表示綠能有間歇性發電的缺點。"},{"start":562.595,"end":578.734,"text":"那因攜手核能各佔臺灣發電比例百分之三十讓不排碳發電合計到百分之六十這是臺灣人員的黃金比例可以追上先進國家的水準那童子賢直言臺灣人員政策"},{"start":581.294,"end":606.93,"text":"不能改變的原因無非是原來的非核家園的口號來卡住了為了要適應那個口號就一切東西都要卡來卡去他說臺灣本來可以大舉進步就是因為把核能廢掉而力能又追不上原來設定的目標他希望談論人員政策時政治味道越淡越好"},{"start":608.872,"end":616.837,"text":"中信看待產業需求和民生的需求,本席支持綠能發展。臺電火力全開,臺灣2050淨零排蛋恐怕"},{"start":622.694,"end":645.288,"text":"我看是天荒夜談本席建議卓內閣賴政府盡速召開能源國是會議把所有真實數據全部都攤開來讓全民知道該滾動式調整能源結構就運用核能幫助達成2050年淨零排算的目標卓院長你有什麼看法"},{"start":646.207,"end":671.57,"text":"再跟委員報告非核家園我早上說過了它是在環境基本法23條裡面訂的政府應該訂定計畫這個不可以改嗎?現時核能也是立法的這個法現在是存在的而且是委員在想在場那個本來就可以改啊2002年就訂但現在是沒有改現在是沒有修沒有改所以這是一個現行的法律再來現在要經過社會有共識核能"},{"start":672.771,"end":700.213,"text":"發電達到百分之三十百分之三十應該是現在的社會共識還要很大的去努力能不能達到我都覺得不一定但是這是一個未來可以討論的也許新的核能技術有一天改變跟我們現在不知道的技術那是未來的事情所以我常說一句話未來的核能解決不了今天的問題其實你要達到2050年精靈排碳是天荒夜譚照你們現在的整個這個就是"},{"start":702.148,"end":707.458,"text":"整個電價整個電的那個操作方式真的關於學校這個"},{"start":710.423,"end":735.32,"text":"電價的補貼臺電表示要動漲政策不變但電會差額會改由各部會編列相關的預算不再由臺電來吸收臺大下長表示一旦漲電會對學校是嚴重的負擔影響經費教學研究的品質資深的服務那教育經費法定下限明定前三年度"},{"start":736.601,"end":765.272,"text":"決算稅入淨額平均值23%本席認為窮不能窮教育苦不能苦孩子本席已提出教育經費編列與管理法修正草案明訂電費補助款不要記錄教育經費的預算更讓更多教育經費用於學生的身上希望卓院長不要讓上場的電價吃掉學生的教育預算你有什麼看法"},{"start":767.088,"end":767.548,"text":"報告委員臺電長年以來"},{"start":792.435,"end":796.817,"text":"民進黨政府高估再生能源發展的速度又低估了AI用電需求的成長放棄便宜的核電不用用選擇一度三到四元更貴更髒的火力化電"},{"start":821.187,"end":834.375,"text":"那本席現在說的數據是臺電提供2023年燃氣發電的購電成本每度3.62元和能每度1.3元如果2023年臺電整個和能發電的電量跟2015年一樣351億度的話則可以減少使用天然氣發電少虧損400億這400億等同於113年"},{"start":851.024,"end":866.023,"text":"文化部300億的預算再加上未來要成立的百億癌症新藥的基金本席不反對發展再生人員2025年再生人員20%的目標已確定是跳票的"},{"start":867.765,"end":873.209,"text":"經濟部下修的占比目標是15.5%本來要2025年到20%但是現在下修到15.5%國際認可何能為綠電"},{"start":882.051,"end":896.147,"text":"整個國際能源總署強調世界需要核電來減少碳排放每日韓都大舉發展核電那難道民進黨的能源政策不需要做通販的檢討嗎?"},{"start":898.529,"end":923.64,"text":"我們這幾年來發展綠能所以很多世界的大廠包括設立資料中心他來臺灣設廠就是指定要用綠電如果我們沒有這幾年的發展這些大廠要來臺灣是不可能選擇的所以我們應該請委員一起支持我們還是要多元發展綠電我們還是要穩定供電大家都清清楚楚的啦為什麼現在經常很多地方都在跳電"},{"start":924.58,"end":940.327,"text":"那是因為電網韌性不好,我要求能夠縮短時間改變電網的韌性,改善電網的韌性。其實我認為政院缺電是有直接關係的啦。這個下次其他再...謝謝,謝謝林委員,謝謝總院長。下一位我們請黃國昌委員質詢。"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}