{"error":false,"id":["154418"],"data":{"IVOD_ID":154418,"IVOD_URL":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154418","日期":"2024-07-01","會議資料":{"會議代碼":"委員會-11-1-26-23","會議代碼:str":"第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第23次全體委員會議","屆":11,"會期":1,"會次":23,"臨時會會次":null,"種類":"委員會","委員會代碼":[26],"委員會代碼:str":["社會福利及衛生環境委員會"],"標題":"第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第23次全體委員會議"},"影片種類":"Clip","開始時間":"2024-07-01T13:05:32+08:00","結束時間":"2024-07-01T13:24:11+08:00","影片長度":"00:18:39","支援功能":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/1f04b26fe05fa65a3aa1a026d048647cfe28e669f0977b5113d733110b52e522458456231790284f5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"劉建國","委員發言時間":"13:05:32 - 13:24:11","會議時間":"2024-07-01T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第23次全體委員會議（事由：邀請衛生福利部部長就「有關健保合理支付、保障醫護人員收入、設置百億癌症基金及健康投資等事項」進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","gazette":{"lineno":1134,"blocks":[["劉委員建國：（13時5分）謝謝主席，有請部長。"],["主席：請邱部長。"],["邱部長泰源：委員好。"],["劉委員建國：部長好。我要先感謝主席今天專門安排這個專報來探討健保的合理支付，還有保障醫護人員收入，設置百億癌症基金及健康投資，每件事情都事關重大，也代表部長的責任非常非常之重。健保要撐起臺灣龐大的醫療體制，其實已經非常吃緊了，急需新藥救命的癌症病友也非常清楚這一點，所以在2022年的時候，病友團體共同提出臺灣百億癌症新藥基金的構想，透過與健保脫鉤，讓基金可以自主營運，用更快的速度引進國外的創新藥物，不只救急，也要救命。在這個構想提出的時候，本席立即響應，也在2022年4月12日在立院總質詢時，向我們的行政院前蘇院長，還有時任的衛福部陳前部長爭取；也在同年5月26日邀請衛福部及相關專家學者召開臺灣癌症新藥多元支持基金公聽會。然後在隔年2023年4月20日我帶領著13個病友團體進到總統府內面見當時的賴清德副總統，當天副總統就公開表示要將臺灣百億癌症基金納入在競選政見之中，所以在去年年底總統大選時，有人說賴清德總統的政見是抄襲別人的政見，這真的是非常冤枉，而且是天大的誤會。但是我也必須要提醒當時2023年4月20日在總統府的時候，我們現在的總統、當時的副總統確實有講要把癌症新藥基金納入在政見裡面，這是一個事實。","我是要讓部長瞭解整個臺灣百億癌症新藥基金的時序，讓部長能夠瞭解癌症病友從2022年就開始殷殷期盼希望這個基金會可以儘速成立，當然它必須要透過法律的修正。同時有更多的癌症病友在等待新藥中已經絕望離去，所以本席在今年5月與立院厚生會召開提升臺灣癌症新藥可近性委員會，石署長也有參加。癌症希望基金會董事柯醫師說，最難過的事情不是看不到希望，而是看到希望卻沒辦法去做，所以部長，在衛環委員會有很多委員有提出癌症新藥基金的版本，總共有11個版本左右，到現在還沒有看到行政院的版本，我要請教一下，行政院到底什麼時候要送出來？"],["邱部長泰源：真的非常感動，我今天才這麼清楚地知道百億基金的來源原來是這樣的過程。"],["劉委員建國：這邊還有很多流程，部長可以過目，我只是省略……"],["邱部長泰源：賴基銘醫師是我的好朋友，也感謝建國委員陪著賴醫師去爭取這樣一件事情，有兩件事情，如果我們馬上在癌症防治法裡面這樣寫，大家有共識很快的通過，馬上來落實是最好的事情。但是沒關係，在這之前，剛剛石署長也報告了，我們用暫時支付的方式，今年24億在處理這個部分，讓一些癌症新藥可以用到病人身上，明年政府會用60億的公務預算，因為不用那麼多，算一算用60億就可以了，第三年會變百億，至少這三年我們這樣做。在癌症防治法裡面，如果修法能夠順利完成，就能接上癌症防治法的基金設立或是怎麼樣，我想這樣的運作，就不會讓病人去等。"],["劉委員建國：部長講出兩個點，第一個點要有共識，馬上就可以修，現在有什麼地方沒有共識？還是哪一個委員有不一樣的意見？你不用講委員的名字，有沒有這樣的因素存在？如果沒有，你這麼講是有點奇怪，哪一個委員有不一樣的意見跟想法，大家都可以來討論；坦白講，今天如果不是召委排這樣的專案報告，我想……"],["邱部長泰源：可不可以我們同時來進行？我們錢已經先申請，拿出來，然後……"],["劉委員建國：部長，剛才講的第一個點你還沒有答復我；第二點你說不用這麼多，這句話說起來很嚴重喔！這會傷到你喔！"],["邱部長泰源：沒有，癌症新藥……"],["劉委員建國：你怎麼知道不用這麼多？你有概估、評估過？你有去跟病友團體、跟醫界溝通？你本身來自醫界，你有跟醫界，包含王正旭委員，他都是癌症的專業醫師。"],["邱部長泰源：報告委員，這個要分清楚，如果是補助癌症用藥，只要合乎indication，基本上這部分就是健保給付，這沒有問題。現在問題是一些新藥，好像它的效果還沒有確認，也沒有完成三期或怎麼樣，可是醫生還是覺得有用，這個要給它一個機會去使用，過去這些算起來有二十幾億，這是根據藥商提出來的……"],["劉委員建國：所以部長如果要這樣說，你應該先把後面的話……"],["邱部長泰源：那部分已經先付了。"],["劉委員建國：你要先把後面的這些話說在前面，再去講後面不用這麼多的話。"],["邱部長泰源：OK，沒有問題。"],["劉委員建國：你把不用這麼多的話說在前面，後面再來解釋一堆，這樣會傷到你們。"],["邱部長泰源：所有患者需要用的，如果它符合indication，健保通通給付。"],["劉委員建國：如果照生意需要，聽你這種的說法就會向你求證，覺得你這門生意有點怪怪的，這樣你會發生危險。"],["邱部長泰源：我們再來共同討論。"],["劉委員建國：你們的思維會互相矛盾，這樣不好啦！你現在是部長，今天蘇清泉委員跟你說，你回去當委員比較好，我是替你感到很不滿，因為他沒辦法擔任，所以他看了眼紅；一樣都是醫師，他又開醫院，你是家醫師，你當部長，他是開醫院的醫師，做到這麼大，卻沒辦法擔任部長，不管在國民黨時代沒辦法擔任部長，在民進黨時代更加沒辦法擔任部長，你一個家醫師背景的人，可以擔任部長，所以他看了眼紅，才會這樣跟你說，所以你的表現要更四平八穩，有些話可能先後順序、排序，你要清楚一點，不然會傷到你，好不好？"],["邱部長泰源：好，謝謝指教。"],["劉委員建國：部長，你剛才講的先後順序已經有衝突、矛盾，你們連這份報告裡面，你們也亂七八糟地修改，我不曉得是哪一個幕僚提供這樣的訊息給你，還是誰給你的指令，怎麼會你們的報告一下子寫這樣、一下子寫那樣，你知道這有改過吧？「本部將朝向修正癌症防治法，設立癌症新藥基金」，這是最早給我們的報告，現在這幾個字不見了。「本部優先規劃爭取公務預算，撥入全民健康保險基金」，為什麼要改這個？你們為什麼要改這個？"],["邱部長泰源：這是在行政院裡面，大家經過認真地討論，當然……"],["劉委員建國：你們的意思是說在行政院認真地討論，所以你們原本的報告出來，在你們部裡面就是不夠認真討論嘛！"],["邱部長泰源：本來就是那個方向，但可能怕那個方向在時間上沒辦法馬上執行。"],["劉委員建國：不是啦！部長，我覺得你說話要小心啦！你這樣講很奇怪，因為你上個禮拜對媒體說了什麼話，跟你現在在報告裡面提到的又互相矛盾、互相衝突，有沒有如此你很清楚，不然你的幕僚就是不清楚。在禮拜五的時候，委員會已經收到你的報告：「本部將朝向修正癌症防治法，設立癌症新藥基金」，這是你們的報告啊！為什麼現在這個報告文字不見了？然後你跟我講是行政院，你們可以……"],["邱部長泰源：一開始寫的時候，的確是有寫到癌症防治法，我們禮拜六、禮拜天也都沒有休息，對此可能要講清楚一點，我們還是先以進到健保基金、專款專用，明年馬上就可以來做，以這個為優先，癌症防治法等於是同時在後面來做啦！"],["劉委員建國：楊委員原本叫我講久一點，因為他到了，我就沒辦法講很久了，所以我開始要講重點了，我只想讓部長答復。部長，你這樣答復還是有很大的問題，如果要再從健保裡面勻支這些需要的費用……"],["邱部長泰源：不是，這是公務預算。"],["劉委員建國：沒有，你從公務預算撥補到總額裡面，再從總額裡面撥出來，跟你上個禮拜講的是不一樣的喔！"],["邱部長泰源：沒有，專款專用，沒有撥到總額裡面，因為這100……"],["劉委員建國：沒有撥到總額裡面？不然用公務預算直接成立一個基金不是更快，為什麼還來到健保這一塊，再從這邊出去，然後叫作專款專用？這個邏輯，你這樣說難道不會互相矛盾？你們底下的幕僚聽得懂嗎？我是聽不太懂，不然楊委員也在這裡，你請教他一下。"],["邱部長泰源：這也是一個方向，但是……"],["劉委員建國：這是一個方向，你說這筆用公務預算，要來處理癌症新藥，對不對？"],["邱部長泰源：對。"],["劉委員建國：你暫時沒有成立基金，現在來用這些經費是夠的嘛！你講的是60億、號稱60億，對不對？"],["邱部長泰源：明年先60億。"],["劉委員建國：對，明年喔！暫時性的支付是24.29億，對不對？這裡面還涵蓋罕病及其他疾病的新藥、暫時性的經費……"],["邱部長泰源：那個要扣掉。"],["劉委員建國：你扣掉，到底是多少？"],["石署長崇良：目前就24億。"],["劉委員建國：24億你就覺得夠了？"],["邱部長泰源：今年啦！"],["石署長崇良：目前是暫時性支付的。"],["劉委員建國：24億的暫時性支付，署長，你跟我講這樣就夠了？"],["石署長崇良：今年夠用啦！"],["劉委員建國：24億今年夠用，很明確？"],["石署長崇良：跟委員報告，我們現在訂的，不是健保裡面就不再支付癌藥、新藥，癌藥、新藥還是放在健保裡面，所以它療效如果明確，我們的評估、財務衝擊都很明確，還是會進到健保。這個專款的部分，只是對一些療效或財務評估不確定的，讓它可以先用，才適用這個專款，並不是全部合起來的癌藥只有24億。"],["劉委員建國：署長，我們那天有講得很清楚，公聽會你也有參加，對不對？其實是要分流出來的，如果是重疊在一塊，那意義就不大嘛，對不對？"],["石署長崇良：它現在就是分開。"],["劉委員建國：它現在分開？"],["石署長崇良：對！"],["劉委員建國：你已經把它分開之後，為什麼不能去修防治法，趕快成立基金？"],["石署長崇良：因為依據財政紀律法，現在要訂一個獨立的基金，你要另覓財源。"],["劉委員建國：對，是啊！"],["石署長崇良：不能用現有財源或公務預算挹注，為了讓這些癌友趕快……"],["劉委員建國：這句話已經聽過N次以上了，所以你們到現在都還沒有找到財源？"],["石署長崇良：對、對！所以為了要跨技術，我們現在用現有的基金。"],["劉委員建國：不是，你們現在是還沒有找到財源？"],["石署長崇良：沒有新的財源。"],["劉委員建國：沒有新的財源，那二十幾億是從哪邊跑出來的？"],["石署長崇良：這是用公務預算。"],["劉委員建國：對嘛！就公務預算。"],["石署長崇良：在現有的基金裡面先來執行，所以它是撥到健保給付。"],["劉委員建國：從公務預算就可以跑出二十幾億，所以你的公務預算是沒有辦法跑出100億就對了，你想要跟我表達的是這樣？"],["石署長崇良：不是，其實有100億，有、有！未來一定有100億，但是沒有辦法新設一個基金。"],["劉委員建國：為什麼有100億卻沒辦法新設一個基金？"],["石署長崇良：這是財政紀律法的規定。"],["劉委員建國：財政紀律法有規定有100億，你們已經找出財源，跟你說沒辦法新設一個基金？"],["石署長崇良：它是說新增的財源才可以。"],["劉委員建國：新增的財源？"],["石署長崇良：或是新收了一個什麼稅才有辦法。"],["劉委員建國：新增財源的定義是什麼？"],["石署長崇良：就是不在現有的公務預算，或已經有分配的稅收運用用途，不能夠另外用現有的預算去處理的意思。"],["劉委員建國：你現在這個是用現有預算嗎？不是嗎？"],["石署長崇良：這個現在是放到現有的基金，目前健保基金是現有的，不是新的基金。"],["劉委員建國：不是啦，現在這個公務預算是現有的預算嗎？"],["石署長崇良：不是，新的基金必須要另謀新的財源，我們現在的作法上是先用健保基金，這是既有基金，所以不受限於要新籌財源的限制。"],["劉委員建國：我跟你講白一點，你很清楚，你也有參加，他們都知道健保要支撐臺灣龐大的醫療資源，實在是很吃力，所以這些癌友團體非常清楚，才會來請託你們、才會來請託總統、才會來請託院長要去成立這個基金，對不對？現在你要從健保基金裡面勻支二十九億多，這不是很……"],["石署長崇良：是由公務預算挹注到健保基金，專款專用啦！"],["劉委員建國：對嘛！就從公務預算挹注到健保基金，才從健健保基金再勻支出來，我這樣講不對嗎？"],["石署長崇良：就是在健保基金裡面來操作，專款專用。"],["劉委員建國：你的公務預算多出二十幾億，是從哪裡來的？"],["石署長崇良：這個是從國家的預算裡面撥進來。"],["劉委員建國：是嘛！國家的預算撥進來，這樣沒有違反財政紀律？"],["石署長崇良：沒有，但如果是立法要新設一個基金，就要另謀財源、要新的財源。"],["劉委員建國：不能用這個財源去成立一個基金？"],["石署長崇良：不可以。"],["劉委員建國：不可以？"],["石署長崇良：對。"],["劉委員建國：好。所以到目前為止上面沒有跟你講有新的財源，所以你們不可以去修這個法，是這樣？"],["石署長崇良：對。"],["劉委員建國：這樣你就是把邱部長的嘴巴打得非常大了，因為他說委員會要有共識，他剛剛開場白講的第一點就是這樣嘛。"],["石署長崇良：所以還要一些時間去研議嘛。"],["劉委員建國：啊？"],["石署長崇良：所以還需要時間去研議，沒有辦法馬上去修法。"],["劉委員建國：研議是你們去研議找新的財源，不是委員會沒有共識嘛。你剛剛坐底下沒有聽到嗎？很清楚，邱部長是這樣講的，他講的第一點，我應該沒有聽錯，主席應該也沒有聽錯，楊委員你叫我來，你有沒有聽到？"],["邱部長泰源：如果修正癌症防治法，裡面設一個基金，是不是裡面要寫另闢財源？"],["石署長崇良：對，要有新的財源。"],["邱部長泰源：也是要寫另闢財源才有辦法嘛。"],["石署長崇良：要有基金的來源。"],["邱部長泰源：所以我們來努力，但是可能在一段時間的努力之前，這個公務預算馬上就直接可以用健保基金專款專用來用到病人的身上，這是最短速、可以趕快做到的，然後癌症防治法這個基金我們再來談看看設了以後由哪一個財源來，這個可能會是第二步，需要一點時間。但是大家不要忘記了，現在所有癌症的治療還是健保在給付，並沒有影響到健保……應該要治療的，絕對不會影響。"],["劉委員建國：部長，你說這個，我不是不清楚，這件事情不是現在才說的，所以我才說時序是2022年就開始了，一直到現在。署長應該非常清楚吧，你們到底是什麼地方去卡到，不然你那一天怎麼會對媒體講你對癌症百億基金的看法及做法？你如果用這樣來處理的話，我覺得有點在矇混，就好像你們不打算要成立這個基金要矇混，然後不用到這麼多，你們的意思是這樣嘛。你號稱健保總額裡面有用60億，其實36億是原本今年就已經核定過了、核過的新藥，你的36億原本是這樣，你的暫時性支付24.29億其實也是我剛剛說的，你跟我說沒有，有涵蓋罕病及其他藥，你說沒有，那可能也差了幾億而已，也差了幾億而已啦！不然你把明細拿給我看，你把明細拿出來給所有的委員看啊！你要跟我計較1億、2億、3億、4億就對了！如果這樣，我們審預算的時候，大家再來算得更清楚一點，我能讓你這樣跟我講喔！難道你當作我今天才來的！","一個新藥要等多久？平均782天。這些癌友團體訴求這件事情，衛福部去年還派員去英國考察，但是到現在這個基金還沒辦法成立，現在才跟我講財政紀律！"],["主席：是不是劉委員……"],["邱部長泰源：我們會後……我們快一點來修癌症防治法。"],["劉委員建國：你還跟我說委員有不同的意見，我們都可以去溝通，你們衛福部也應該去溝通，到底11個版本裡面有哪一個委員的意見是不同的？我不清楚，所以我就教於你嘛。"],["主席：劉委員，因為時間的關係……"],["劉委員建國：好，我知道，謝謝，主席，抱歉。"],["邱部長泰源：癌症防治法的部分，我們趕快來整理大家的意見，現在因為行政院希望趕快落實總統的政見，所以明年會用公務預算60億專款專用來幫助癌症的新藥，後年會100億，我相信癌症防治法這邊如果通過的話，我想整個會shift到這邊來運作。"],["劉委員建國：好，部長，我再強調一次，最後一句話就好了，總統的政見就是要成立癌症新藥百億基金，就這樣而已嘛。"],["邱部長泰源：謝謝。"],["主席：衛福部，剛剛劉委員提出來的，是不是如果有一些新的資料，你們可以提供給劉委員做參考，好不好？"],["邱部長泰源：好，謝謝。"],["主席：接下來請陳冠廷委員、陳冠廷委員、陳冠廷委員不在。","接下來請楊曜委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":118,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-26-23","speakers":["黃秀芳","陳昭姿","林月琴","陳菁徽","邱鎮軍","王育敏","涂權吉","廖偉翔","蘇清泉","王正旭","鄭天財Sra 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當天副總統就公開的表示要將臺灣百億癌症基金納入在競選的政見之中"},{"start":106.093,"end":131.729,"text":"所以在去年年底總統大選時有人說賴清德總統的政見是抄襲別人的政見這是真的非常冤枉而且是天大的誤會但是我也必須要提醒當時在2023年4月20號在總統府的時候確實我們現任的總統當時的副總統有講要把這個癌症新藥的基金納入在政見裡面這是一個事實"},{"start":133.468,"end":155.217,"text":"我是要讓部長瞭解到整個臺灣百億癌症新藥基金的時序也是讓部長能夠瞭解到說癌症病友從2022年就開始朝這個基金會因期盼的希望可以盡速的來成立當然他必須要透過法律的修正同時有更多的癌症的病友他們在等待新藥中"},{"start":156.417,"end":180.783,"text":"是已經絕望的離去所以我在今年5月本席在與立院的獲勝會召開提升臺灣癌症新藥可進信的委員會我們的時事部長也有參加癌症希望基金會的董事柯醫師說最難過的事情不是看不到希望是看到希望卻沒辦法去做"},{"start":183.365,"end":202.427,"text":"所以部長我想齁我們在衛福委員會有很多的委員有提出這個癌症診療基金的版本總共有11個版本左右嘛齁然後到現在還沒有看到行政院版本我要請教一下行政院到底什麼時候要送出來真的非常感動齁我今天才"},{"start":203.906,"end":218.722,"text":"這麼清楚的知道這個百億基金的來源,原來是這樣的。這個還有很多流程,部長可以過目。賴基民醫師是我好朋友,他也從事,感謝建國委員陪著賴"},{"start":220.273,"end":246.896,"text":"那一事去爭取到這樣的一件事情那這個有兩件事情如果說我們馬上癌症防治法裡面這樣寫大家有共識很快的通過那馬上來落實這是最好的事情但是沒關係在這之前我們現在剛剛時事長今天也報告了我們用暫時支付的方式今年24億在處理這個部分讓一些癌症的新藥"},{"start":247.657,"end":275.746,"text":"可以用到病人的身上明年政府會用60億的公務預算60億因為不用那麼多啦所以算算的話266就可以了第三年就變百億至少這三年我們這樣做那癌症防治法裡面如果修法能夠順利完成就接上這個癌症防治法的一個看基金的設立啦或是怎麼樣我想這樣的運作我們就不會讓病人去等啦"},{"start":276.286,"end":288.798,"text":"部長講出兩個點第一個點要有共識馬上就可以修現在有什麼地方沒有共識的還是哪一個委員有不一樣的意見你不用講委員的名字有沒有這樣的因素存在"},{"start":292.069,"end":312.656,"text":"如果沒有你這麼講是有點奇怪哪一個委員有不一樣的意見跟想法大家都可以來討論嘛因為坦白講今天如果不是召委排這樣的一個專案報告我想可不可以我們同時來進行就是我們錢已經先拿出申請比較拿出來沒有沒有但是我剛才講的第一個點你還沒有答覆嘛第二點"},{"start":313.456,"end":314.277,"text":"這個要分清楚,如果是補助"},{"start":339.228,"end":362.946,"text":"補助癌症的用藥只要合乎indication其實基本上這一部分就是健保給付的嘛這沒有問題那現在問題是說一些新藥好像它的效果還沒有確認有沒有完成三期或怎麼樣可是我們就醫生還是覺得有用啦啊這個你們有一個機會去用啊這個用過去算起來是20幾億啊這是根據那個他們藥商"},{"start":365.848,"end":379.397,"text":"提出來的所以補兌你要講你應該把你阿伯這位先你先把阿伯這位講到頭上這去講到阿伯那邊不用這麼多位啦OK沒問題你如果要把不用這麼多位放在頭上阿伯這該算幾百位你這樣會想到健保通通是你如果叫生理師看你這種說法就會跟你求情說你這個生理但沒有怪怪你這樣會發生危險"},{"start":392.022,"end":392.863,"text":"你現在是補充喔"},{"start":399.775,"end":414.865,"text":"今天說清楚啊,委員你這樣說,你這樣當委員很好,我是聽覺得很不滿的,對嗎?你都不知道做,所以也苦恥啊,明明是醫師啊,他又開便衣啊,你是家醫師,你做不對啊,他開便衣的醫師就對了,做得這麼大就對了,他沒辦法做不對,不管你國民黨的年代沒辦法做不對,你民主黨的年代經過沒辦法做不對,你一個家醫師的背景的人,你可以做不對,所以也苦恥啊,不知道跟你說什麼,所以你的表演就要更…更…更…"},{"start":426.693,"end":453.454,"text":"跟視頻八文所以有些話可能先後順序排序你要清楚一點不然你會傷到啦好不好那我現在在講你們不只是部長你剛才講的先後順序已經是有衝突矛盾的你們連這個報告裡面你們在那邊亂七八糟的修改我不曉得是哪一個幕僚提供這樣的訊息給你還是說寫給你的指令怎麼會你們的報告一下子寫這樣一下子寫這樣你知道這個改過嗎"},{"start":455.322,"end":469.836,"text":"本部將朝修正癌症防治法設立癌症診療基金這是最早給我們的報告現在這幾個字不見了本部優先規劃爭取公務預算撥入全民健康保險基金"},{"start":476.294,"end":485.724,"text":"你是不是要解釋?委員報告,這在行政裡面,大家經過大家的認證討論,當然...所以你的意思是說,你行政的認證討論,所以你原本的報告出來,你補來的就是無告認證討論嘛?"},{"start":492.535,"end":516.088,"text":"本來就是要那個風雄,但是覺得那個風雄可能走時間太短就失敗了不是啦,不是你說你講話我覺得你要洗衣啦,你這樣講很奇怪就對了因為,因為你在上禮拜,你對媒體講什麼話,跟你現在在報告裡面,他又想跑,又是衝突,又是衝突有沒有,你很清楚,不然你的幕僚就是不清楚"},{"start":517.459,"end":532.635,"text":"然後你的報告禮拜五的時候委員會已經收到這個本部將朝向修正癌症防治法設立癌症診療基金這是你們的報告啊為什麼現在這個報告不見了然後你跟我講是行政院你們被"},{"start":535.202,"end":559.008,"text":"打開謝愛心的確是有寫到癌症防治法那我們禮拜六禮拜天也都沒有休息嘛就可能要講清楚一點齁我們還是先以那個先進到健保基金專款專用馬上明年就可以來做齁這個優先啦啊這個癌症防治法是等於是說同時來後面來做啦"},{"start":561.309,"end":570.2,"text":"那個言委員原本就要講久一點,因為他到了我就沒辦法講很久了,所以我開始要講重點的。我簡單讓部長答覆,不然這樣答覆還是有很大的問題。"},{"start":571.906,"end":599.365,"text":"如果要再從健保裡面去融資這些的信用的費用你從公務預算撥不到總額裡面再從整額裡面再撥出來那到底跟你上個禮拜講的是不一樣嗎沒有撥到總額裡面不然你用公務預算就直接去成立一個基金不是更快為什麼還要來到健保這個塊然後再從這邊出去然後叫做專款專用"},{"start":601.106,"end":606.17,"text":"這個邏輯你這樣還沒受怕,你問我比較沒理由我聽得懂,我聽不懂,不然我問你,你再請教一下"},{"start":608.994,"end":615.996,"text":"你這個風雄,你用這筆用功預算來處理癌症新藥,對不對?那你暫沒有成立基金,你覺得現在來用這些經費是夠的嗎?你講的是60億嘛,對不對?號稱60億嘛你暫時現在支付是24.29億嘛,對不對?你這個還在包括涵蓋寒病還有其他疾病的新藥暫時性經費你扣掉到底是多少?"},{"start":636.801,"end":640.025,"text":"24億目前是暫時性支付的24億的暫時性支付今年 署長你跟我講這樣就夠了今年夠用啦24億今年夠用 很明確"},{"start":651.533,"end":678.58,"text":"跟委員報告我們現在訂的不是把健保裡面就不再支付癌藥新藥癌藥新藥還是健保裡面有所以他療效如果明確我們的評估財務衝擊都很明確還是會進到健保那這個專款的部分只是對一些療效或財務評估不確定的讓他可以先用那個才是用這個專款所以並不是全部合起來的癌藥只有這個24億"},{"start":680,"end":707.358,"text":"市長,我們那天有講得很清楚,公聽委員你有參加嘛,對不對?那其實是要分流出來的,如果是重疊在一塊,那意義就不大嘛,對不對?他現在就是分開他現在分開,那你已經把他分開之後,為什麼不能去修防治法趕快成立基金?跟委員報告,因為依據這個財政紀律法,你現在要訂一個獨立的基金,你要另密財源"},{"start":708.238,"end":720.165,"text":"不能用現有財源或公務預算挹注,所以為了讓這個癌友能夠趕快,對,對,對,所以為了要快進度,我們現在用現有的基金,沒有新的財源,沒有新的財源,那你20幾億是從哪邊跑出來的?這是用公務預算,在現有的基金裡面先來執行,所以它是公務到健保的基金。"},{"start":731.252,"end":750.787,"text":"所以你的公寓算是沒有辦法沒有辦法跑出100億出來就對了嗎?你要跟我表達是這樣即使有100億有有未來一定有100億但是沒有辦法新設一個基金為什麼有100億沒辦法新設一個基金這是財政紀律法的規定財政紀律法有跟你規定有100億然後你們已經找出財源"},{"start":753.589,"end":777.412,"text":"財源他是說要新增的財源才可以新增的財源新增的財源的定義是什麼就是不再現有的公務預算或已經有分配的這個稅收的運用用途你不能夠另外用現有的預算去處理的意思你現在這個是用現有預算嗎 不是嗎"},{"start":779.92,"end":805.925,"text":"這個現在是放到現有的基金不是啊 你的預算你現在這個公務預算是現有的預算嗎不是新的基金必須要另謀新的財源我們現在做法上是現用健保基金是既有基金所以不受限於那一個所謂要新籌財源的限制我該坦白你也很清楚你有參加他們都知道我們"},{"start":806.545,"end":815.76,"text":"建保要支撐臺灣龐大的醫療資源實在是很吃力就對了所以這些臺友團體非常清楚才會來請託你們,才會來請託總統,才會來請託院長"},{"start":822.045,"end":822.465,"text":"你的公務預算給自己整頓是對台來的"},{"start":848.546,"end":875.667,"text":"這個國家的國家的預算裡面撥進來是嘛國家的預算撥進來阿所以他這樣沒有委婉財政機率沒有阿但是如果你是立法要新設一個基金的話就要另某財源要新的財源阿不能用這個財源去成立一個基金不可以阿所以到目前為止是上面沒有跟你講說有新的財源所以你們不可以去修這個法是這樣對阿這樣你就是把"},{"start":876.227,"end":889.011,"text":"邱部長嘴巴打得非常大了因為他是說要有共識嘛委員會要有共識嘛他剛剛開慘白就講的第一點就這樣嘛所以還需要時間去研議研議是你們先去研議找新的裁員嘛不是委員會沒有共識嘛你剛剛坐底下有沒有聽到嗎很清楚啊邱部長是這麼講的他講的第一點啊"},{"start":902.728,"end":929.43,"text":"我應該沒有聽錯啊主席應該沒有聽錯啊如果修正癌症防治法裡面設一個基金是不是裡面要寫另闢財源?對,要有新的財源你是要寫另闢財源才有辦法嗎?對,要有基金的來源所以這一個我們來努力嘛但是在努力可能有一段時間之前我們這個公務預算馬上用就直接可以用到健保基金專款專案來用到病人的身上"},{"start":930.491,"end":949.562,"text":"這是最短數趕快做到然後癌症防治法這個基金我們再來談看看設了以後然後我們怎麼樣有哪一個財源來那這個的確是可能會第二步需要一點時間啦但是大家不要忘記了你今天所有的癌症現在的治療還是健保在幾戶啊"},{"start":950.695,"end":977.603,"text":"並沒有影響到健保應該要治療的,絕對不會影響沒有啦,你講這個我不是不清楚嘛這件事情不是現在這麼說我來說時序是2022年就開始的,一直到現在署長應該非常清楚吧我們到底什麼地方去卡到不然你那一天怎麼會對媒體講對這個百億基金你的看法跟你的做法那我覺得說你如果用這樣來處理的話"},{"start":978.943,"end":979.685,"text":"我覺得這個有點在蒙混啊"},{"start":983.325,"end":1010.428,"text":"就好像你們不打算要成立這個基金要門戶然後民用到那麼多你的意思就是這樣嘛你對健保的中央還對你你號稱個60億啊其實這36億裡面就是原本今年就已經核定過的核富的信鑰捏你的30多億元本就是這樣捏你的暫時性支付率就是4點以下高的其實也是我剛才說的你敢說沒有有涵蓋韓病還有其他藥你說沒有那可能也差了幾億而已啦也差了幾億而已啦啊不然你給民視拿給我看啊"},{"start":1011.249,"end":1020.133,"text":"你把民事拿出來啊,讓所有人看啊。你還要跟我假假告告,你那一年兩年三年四年就對了,你心理上我們在這裡的生活比較清楚勒?我可以讓你這樣告訴我嗎?你不就當作我今天才來的?一個,一個"},{"start":1032.688,"end":1033.549,"text":"我們快點來修這個癌症防治法這個部"},{"start":1059.383,"end":1071.049,"text":"你要跟我說委員有不同意見我們都可以去溝通你衛福部也應該去溝通那到底有哪一個11個版本有哪一個委員的意見是不同的我不清楚所以我就教於你嘛"},{"start":1073.408,"end":1101.3,"text":"劉委員因為時間的關係這個癌症防治法的部分我們趕快來整理看大家的意見現在因為行政院是希望趕快落實總統的政見所以就是明年會用公務預算60億那專款專料來幫助這個癌症的診療後年會100億那這一邊我相信這一邊如果越快癌症防治法這一邊如果通過的話我想整個會shift到這邊來做來運作"},{"start":1103.021,"end":1112.385,"text":"好了部長我再強調一次最後一句話就好了總統的政見就是要成立癌症新藥百億基金嘛就這樣而已嘛"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}