{"error":false,"id":["154448"],"data":{"IVOD_ID":154448,"IVOD_URL":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154448","日期":"2024-07-03","會議資料":{"會議代碼":"委員會-11-1-36-34","會議代碼:str":"第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第34次全體委員會議","屆":11,"會期":1,"會次":34,"臨時會會次":null,"種類":"委員會","委員會代碼":[36],"委員會代碼:str":["司法及法制委員會"],"標題":"第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第34次全體委員會議"},"影片種類":"Clip","開始時間":"2024-07-03T09:37:08+08:00","結束時間":"2024-07-03T09:48:02+08:00","影片長度":"00:10:54","支援功能":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/5ad2054f9b7cf4bdea29509dab31d8cc266d74c0b9571b08dc75a2b8c9f1b706b39433cafc38c7155ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"羅智強","委員發言時間":"09:37:08 - 09:48:02","會議時間":"2024-07-03T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第34次全體委員會議（事由：併案審查\n（一）委員郭國文等18人擬具「民法第二百零五條條文修正草案」案。\n（二）委員鍾佳濱等25人擬具「民法第二百零五條條文修正草案」案。）","gazette":{"lineno":147,"blocks":[["羅委員智強：（9時37分）有請法務部、金管會。"],["主席：請黃次長還有金管會銀行局的侯主秘。"],["黃次長世杰：委員好。"],["羅委員智強：請問次長，根據行政院消保處統計，2020年到2023年各地方政府受理涉及融資公司相關的消費爭議，每年大概多少件？"],["黃次長世杰：這個報告裡面有，不過我現在沒拿在手上……"],["羅委員智強：300到400件左右。"],["黃次長世杰：是。"],["羅委員智強：你覺得數量多不多？"],["黃次長世杰：其實占整個比例算是還好。"],["羅委員智強：融資公司放款亂象，其實已經不是單純市場秩序問題，它逼著很多根本不具備金融知識的一些人，比如說初出社會的一些年輕人，在還沒進到社會就背負了債務，進而演變成社會問題，所以本席也認同修正民法第二百零五條的一些相關規定，以杜絕融資業者巧利名目，收取不合理的高利，但是我看了法務部列了很多要審慎考慮的修法理由，雖然也不是沒有道理，不過我想要問，委員提案修法就是為了要解決融資公司貸款所衍生的相關問題，如果今天要審慎考慮的有這麼多理由，我不知道法務部對於解決問題有沒有什麼良策？"],["黃次長世杰：跟委員報告，剛才我在報告的時候有特別提到，部內民法債編的研修小組在上個月有特別提請，針對委員提案跟這個修法方向，已經跟專家學者諮詢過了，我們原則上是贊同要修正這個條文，以解決社會的問題，但是因為我們的立法體例是民商合一，所以這個條文不是只會適用在我們剛剛所看到的這些違法業者身上，事實上，只要跟利息有關的所有商務行為，或是政府機關的行為，也都跟這條法律有關，所以我們已經發文，就我們諮詢的內容，跟所有的機關來做函詢，等我們蒐集完意見、綜整之後，針對這次所提出來的問題，我們會想辦法在條文裡面或在立法理由裡面來擬出一個版本。","當然還有一個問題，可能要請各位委員來協助，因為這個條文假設修正的話，新舊法之間的適用，可能在施行法也需要有一個提案的條文才能夠做配套，所以這個部分法務部也會研議，到時候看立法程序上可以怎麼樣進行。當然我們的立意跟委員都是一樣，我們希望能夠藉由這個修正來解決現在所看到的年輕人或者經濟弱勢族群所面對的困境。"],["羅委員智強：希望次長協同金管會相關部門，能夠儘快把你認為應該要更周延化的院版或部版的法律案提出來。"],["黃次長世杰：是，瞭解。"],["羅委員智強：因為這個問題我覺得需要遏止。"],["黃次長世杰：是。"],["羅委員智強：我想請教次長另外一個問題，美麗島電子報的董事長吳子嘉已經去告發新華社記者趙博媒體報導內容涉有內亂罪，你知道這個事情嗎？"],["黃次長世杰：可能現在才聽委員提起。"],["羅委員智強：吳子嘉的這個聲明裡面認為，趙博是大陸地區人民，據報載他的行為涉及壓制在場所有人的意思自主，構成脅迫行為，報載尚指該節目配合國台辦，此顯涉顛覆我國政府之內亂罪，所以要委請律師告發。如果報載屬實，電視台和趙博涉嫌變更國體，顛覆我國之普通內亂罪，就是刑法第一百條。那我想請教，目前你還不知道高檢署有沒有受理，對不對？"],["黃次長世杰：是。"],["羅委員智強：裡面有一個關鍵，吳子嘉聲請要傳喚包括2名自由時報記者，以及陸委會主委邱垂正、民進黨立委沈伯洋，這件事情我想次長總會有一些瞭解吧？因為沸沸揚揚地，不太可能不知道，對不對？"],["黃次長世杰：我是剛剛聽委員的……"],["羅委員智強：趙博去盯梢東森電視台的某個政論節目。"],["黃次長世杰：有稍微看過新聞媒體的報導。"],["羅委員智強：次長，這個事情鬧這麼大，你身為法務部、我們國家的法務主管機關，就像吳子嘉為什麼今天到高檢署去告，請問高檢署是誰管轄的？"],["黃次長世杰：最高檢察署和法務部。"],["羅委員智強：對啊！法務部，對不對？"],["黃次長世杰：是。"],["羅委員智強：最高檢，對不對？"],["黃次長世杰：是。"],["羅委員智強：那我想請教您，這個事情你還是要有所掌握，沒錯吧？"],["黃次長世杰：是，委員今天的垂詢，因為涉及個案偵查的事項……"],["羅委員智強：我知道一定又講個案偵查不公開。"],["黃次長世杰：是，沒有錯。"],["羅委員智強：但你們七千五百多件的偵查公開，我上次就質詢過了。沒關係，但我只問你一個道理，今天這個案子成案之後的話，吳子嘉很明確指出，2位自由時報記者，還有民進黨立委沈伯洋，為什麼要傳喚這3個人？為什麼？"],["黃次長世杰：這個請委員賜教。"],["羅委員智強：因為源頭就是3個人，不是嗎？這件事所有的源頭就是這3個人，如果這件事屬實的話，你就要循線去瞭解到底事實真相如何，對不對？"],["黃次長世杰：我想高檢署的檢察官……"],["羅委員智強：我就問嘛！請問趙博盯梢……"],["黃次長世杰：如果有受理相關案件，他們會依法去查明相關的事實。"],["羅委員智強：趙博盯梢，請問這個首先揭露於報導的是誰？是哪個報紙報導？自由時報，對不對？"],["黃次長世杰：是。"],["羅委員智強：所以吳子嘉希望能傳喚這2個自由時報記者，因此有爆料人喔！爆料人就是這2個自由時報記者。但比這2個自由時報記者更早的爆料人是誰，次長知道嗎？"],["黃次長世杰：我不曉得。"],["羅委員智強：就是民進黨立委沈伯洋，他說2個月前就知道了。而且部長你不太合格喔！你知道是為什麼嗎？他2個月前就跟國安單位報告了，當然可能部長未必把次長你算進去，對不對？但是法務部職司犯罪偵查，次長，請問國安單位如果接到這個之後要偵辦，法務部應該也要參與協助吧？"],["黃次長世杰：我想是由檢察署的檢察官、專責的檢察官參與……"],["羅委員智強：對，所以我希望我們的檢察機關……"],["黃次長世杰：我們的法務行政……"],["羅委員智強：沒有，剛才我是問你道理而已。"],["黃次長世杰：是。"],["羅委員智強：很明確，爆料人就3個，2個自由時報記者，加上偉大的、天眼通的民進黨立委沈伯洋，2個月前就神知道啦！那我想請教下一個問題，陸委會副主委梁文傑對此案的評語是什麼，你知道嗎？"],["黃次長世杰：請委員指教。"],["羅委員智強：他說沒有爆料人耶！沒有爆料人！你有看報紙吧？"],["黃次長世杰：是……"],["羅委員智強：這個事件是自由時報最先報導吧！是不是？"],["黃次長世杰：是。"],["羅委員智強：那自由時報就是爆料人哪！就是啊！我想請問你，你總不會跟我說你連新聞什麼事件都不看，你不知道沈伯洋2個月前就已經神知道了嗎？次長。"],["黃次長世杰：他們的說法可能跟委員現在的這個說法有點出入。"],["羅委員智強：出入？他就說知道。不管知道的有多少出入，他知道這件事情，而且跟國安單位已經去舉報了，對不對？"],["黃次長世杰：是。"],["羅委員智強：所以也是爆料人。因此我跟次長講，梁文傑說沒有爆料人，要嘛就是睜眼說瞎話，要嘛就是什麼呢？他可能是認為沈伯洋不夠格當爆料人，因為沈伯洋就是個假訊息的造謠龍頭，如果是造謠者的話，可能梁文傑根本不認為是爆料。那我要請問次長，我上次質詢院長，我有講過，過去8年民進黨用社會秩序維護法主要是辦造謠，對不對？"],["黃次長世杰：是……"],["羅委員智強：你知道辦了多少件嗎？有六百多件。"],["黃次長世杰：是。"],["羅委員智強：然後有五百件法院裁定不罰，所以我講民進黨很愛辦所謂的造謠，對不對？那我想請教，今天如果沈伯洋是造謠的話，請問法務部要不要辦？該不該辦？"],["黃次長世杰：跟委員報告，社維法相關的規定是由警察機關先發動，法務部這邊檢察機關……"],["羅委員智強：我就法律意見問你，你不是經常發表法律意見？民進黨這麼厲害，遇到造謠就去辦人家，還辦到是豐功偉業、七成多被民進黨辦的造謠法院都打臉耶！超級棒的、一級棒的辦案效率。而沈伯洋現在龜縮起來，算不算造謠啊？"],["黃次長世杰：這個我想要由沈委員自己來說明。"],["羅委員智強：當然，他現在開始龜縮起來，跟大家說這個有點是……開始在那邊閃避問題。最重要的是梁文傑，梁文傑說沒有爆料者，沈伯洋就是爆料者！他要嘛就假爆料造謠，要嘛真爆料，結果是國安單位今天荒怠職務不查，就這兩個可能性！當然不管怎樣，這個事情既然吳子嘉已經去告發，我希望法務部能夠好好就爆料人，請檢察機關斟酌案情，要不要去約談一下爆料人？不要又當作是二五六沒發生。"],["黃次長世杰：我想高檢署的檢察官會依職權進行、依法辦理，謝謝。"],["羅委員智強：期待、期待。"],["主席：謝謝羅委員、謝謝黃次長。接下來請莊委員瑞雄發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":144,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-36-34","speakers":["鍾佳濱","陳俊宇","羅智強","莊瑞雄","沈發惠","黃珊珊","郭國文","黃國昌","吳思瑤","林思銘","翁曉玲"],"page_start":109,"meetingDate":["2024-07-03"],"gazette_id":"1137001","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1137001_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第34次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"併案審查(一)委員郭國文等18人擬具「民法第二百零五條條文修正草案」案；(二)委員鍾佳濱等\n25人擬具「民法第二百零五條條文修正草案」案","agenda_id":"1137001_00003"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":0.03096875,"end":0.6890937500000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":13.58159375,"end":15.032843750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":15.032843750000001,"end":15.589718750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":16.06221875,"end":17.918468750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":18.25596875,"end":21.344093750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":23.28471875,"end":23.75721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":25.59659375,"end":25.613468750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":25.613468750000003,"end":38.016593750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":26.69346875,"end":26.997218750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":39.940343750000004,"end":42.82596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":42.79221875,"end":46.352843750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":43.11284375,"end":44.46284375000000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涉有媒體報導內容涉有內亂罪你知道這個事情嗎"},{"start":231.778,"end":257.229,"text":"我想請教一下吳子嘉的這個聲明裡面他認為說趙博是大陸地區人民那據報載那他的行為涉及壓制在場所有人的意識自主構成脅迫行為報載擅指該節目配合國台辦此顯色顛覆我國政府之內亂罪所以要委請律師告發"},{"start":258.109,"end":274.409,"text":"那如果報宅屬實電視台跟趙博涉嫌變更國體顛覆我國之普通內亂罪就是刑法第一百條那我想請教一下那目前高檢署你還不知道有沒有受理嘛對不對那裡面一個關鍵來囉"},{"start":277.216,"end":294.254,"text":"吳子嘉號他申請要傳喚包括兩名自由時報記者包括陸委會主委邱垂正以及包括民進黨立委沈博洋這件事情我想次長你總就有一些瞭解吧因為沸沸揚揚不太可能不知道嘛對不對"},{"start":297.117,"end":319.562,"text":"趙博,然後去盯騷東森電視台的某個政論節目。有稍微看過新聞媒體的報導。部長、次長,這個事情鬧這麼大,你身為法務部,我們國家的法務的主管機關,就像吳子嘉為什麼今天到高檢署去告?請問高檢署是誰管轄的?"},{"start":320.987,"end":330.917,"text":"高檢署是最高檢察署跟法務部法務部嘛最高檢嘛對不對那我想請教您這事情你還是要有所掌握吧沒錯吧"},{"start":332.756,"end":358.817,"text":"這個委員今天垂詢因為涉及個案偵查的我知道一定有講個案偵查不公開但你們7500多件偵查公開我上次都質詢過了沒關係但我只問你一個道理今天這個案子成案了之後的話吳子嘉很明確的指出囉兩位自由時報記者還有民進黨立委沈伯陽為什麼要傳喚這三個人啊為什麼"},{"start":363.137,"end":382.682,"text":"這個請委員釋教因為源頭就是三個人不是嗎這件事所有的源頭就這三個人如果這件事屬實的話你就要循線去了解說到底事實真相如何嘛 對不對我就問嘛請問這個趙伯丁少趙伯丁少齁請問這個首先介入於報導是誰是哪個報紙報導自由時報嘛"},{"start":393.607,"end":418.538,"text":"所以這就是吳子嘉要希望能傳喚這兩個自由時報的一個記者所以有爆料人喔爆料人就這兩個自由時報記者啊但比這兩個自由時報記者更早的爆料人是誰?市長你知道嗎?就是民進黨立委沈博洋啦他說兩個月前就知道了而且部長你不太合格喔為什麼你知道嗎?他兩個月前就跟國安單位報告了"},{"start":419.814,"end":448.315,"text":"國安單位當然可能部長說未必把你算進去啦 次長啊 把你算進去啦 對不對但是法務部直施 對不對 我們的犯罪偵查次長請問 這個國安單位如果接到之後 這要偵辦法務部應該也要參與協助吧我想是由檢察署的檢察官齁 專責的檢察官來做服務 來做參與所以我希望我們的檢察機關 沒有我剛剛我是問你道理而已喔那我就想請教一下 很明確爆料人就三個啊"},{"start":449.56,"end":469.974,"text":"兩位自由時報記者加上偉大的天眼通的民進黨立委沈博洋啊 兩個月前就神知道了啊那我想請教一下一個問題齁我們的陸委會的副主委楊文傑對此案的評語是什麼你知道嗎他說沒有爆料人欸沒有爆料人欸你有看報紙吧"},{"start":476.915,"end":490.693,"text":"這個事件是自由時報最先報導吧?是不是?那自由時報就爆料人嗎?就是啊!但我想請問你你總不會跟我講說你連新聞什麼事件都不看你不知道省不省兩個月前就已經神知道了嗎?"},{"start":491.794,"end":514.25,"text":"他的說法可能跟這個委員現在的說法有點出入啦出入他就說知道不管知道出入多少他知道這件事情而且就跟國安單位已經去舉報啦對不對所以是爆料人啦所以我跟各位講我跟次長講梁文傑說沒有爆料人要嘛就睜眼說瞎話啦"},{"start":515.202,"end":543.954,"text":"要嘛就是什麼呢?他可能是認為沈伯陽不夠格當爆料人因為沈伯陽就是個造謠假訊息的造謠龍頭啊所以這種造謠者的話可能我們梁文傑根本不是認為是爆料啊那我要回到請問一下我們的那個次長我上次質詢我們院長我有講過我們用過去民進黨八年用社會秩序維護法主要是辦造謠啦對不對"},{"start":545.27,"end":556.902,"text":"你知道辦了多少屆嗎?有七百多屆 六百多屆然後有五百屆法院裁定不罰啦所以我在講說民進黨很愛辦所謂的造謠啦 對不對"},{"start":560.626,"end":582.017,"text":"那我想請教一下 沈博洋今天如果說他是造謠的話 請問法務部要不要辦 該不該辦跟委員報告社會法相關的規定是由警察機關來先發動 那法務部這邊警察機關我問你就法律意見問你嘛 你不是經常發表法律意見嗎"},{"start":583.458,"end":600.576,"text":"民進黨這麼厲害對不對 遇到謠言 造謠就去辦人家 民眾還辦到說 豐功偉業七成多被民進黨辦的造謠法院都打臉欸 超級棒的 一級棒的一個辦案效率啊沈伯陽他現在歸索起來算不算造謠啊"},{"start":601.818,"end":627.595,"text":"這個我想要由陳委員自己來說明當然啦他現在開始歸索起來跟大家講說這個有點疑似開始閃避問題那最重要的是梁文傑啊梁文傑說沒有爆料者省不上就爆料者他要嘛就假爆料要嘛就是假爆料造謠要嘛真爆料結果呢是國安單位今天荒帶職務不查啦就這兩個可能性啦"},{"start":629.156,"end":652.268,"text":"當然不管怎樣我希望法務部這個事情既然吳子嘉已經去告發了能夠好好把爆料人請檢查機關斟酌案情爆料人要不要去約談一下不要當作是256沒發生 謝謝我想高檢署的甲官會議職權來進行一法辦理期待"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}