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10:14:50","會議時間":"2024-07-03T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第34次全體委員會議（事由：併案審查\n（一）委員郭國文等18人擬具「民法第二百零五條條文修正草案」案。\n（二）委員鍾佳濱等25人擬具「民法第二百零五條條文修正草案」案。）","gazette":{"lineno":243,"blocks":[["沈委員發惠：（10時1分）主席，我們請黃次長。"],["主席：請黃次長。"],["黃次長世杰：委員好。"],["沈委員發惠：次長早，今天很高興次長能夠到本委員會來列席。"],["黃次長世杰：謝謝委員。"],["沈委員發惠：次長過去的法學專業素養素來受各界，包括實務界，包括我們立法院同仁的肯定，希望次長在現在的工作崗位上面，能夠發揮你個人的法學專長，能夠對國家有所建樹，這是個人對你的期許。"],["黃次長世杰：謝謝委員的期許。"],["沈委員發惠：在進入今天排定的議程主題之前，對於昨天的新聞，有犯罪集團幫年輕人申請青年貸款，在騙取個資之後，用這些個資成立公司帳戶，然後用公司帳戶來進行詐騙，作為詐騙的人頭帳戶，這樣子的犯罪手法，因為它是一個幫派組織，所以受到社會的關注，但事實上它不只是幫派組織，任何人都有可能用這樣的公司人頭帳戶來進行詐騙。現在正在進行審查程序中的打詐四法裡面的三法，是由本委員會來進行審查，針對現在這樣子以公司帳戶的方式，因為公司帳戶跟一般的人頭帳戶不太一樣，公司帳戶有一些比較特別的特性，就是它的出入金額一般比較不會引起金融業臨櫃人員的警覺，所以針對現在這樣用公司帳戶申辦人頭詐騙的案件、狀況，我們法務部有沒有掌握？"],["黃次長世杰：誠如委員提到今天早上的這個新聞，刑事警察大隊已經發動搜索，偵破這個個案之後，也移送地檢署偵辦當中。對於這個部分，因為其實公司的帳戶、法人的帳戶，過去作為人頭帳戶之用，也不是沒有，但誠如委員所提到，現在因為我們的洗錢防制，就個人帳戶的部分加強管制，如果未來這是我們另外一個需要注意的地方，我們也會由臺高檢邀集相關的行政機關，就行政管制跟打詐的聯防上面來做相關的研討，看看如何研商出一些徵兆，讓我們可以提前發現有些帳戶可能有疑似這樣的情形發生。"],["沈委員發惠：次長，你所講的就是本席的主張，我認為你們應該要提早先針對這個……"],["黃次長世杰：可能性……"],["沈委員發惠：對，從這個個案看起來，未來它可能會是一個詐騙的、目前我們所設定的，包括洗錢防制等等的一個破口，所以刑法相關部分要提早來研議，好不好？"],["黃次長世杰：是，我們會跟金管會研議，因為現在新設帳戶相關前置的審查還是由金管會來做處理，公司帳戶成立的過程是否太過容易，或是它的交易行為異常等等，我們可以來做交流、來做研討、來做預防。"],["沈委員發惠：針對今天的刑法第二百零五條的修正案，剛才前面幾位委員都有提到，我看提案的委員跟今天所排定的議程，基本上大家不分黨派都是支持的，包括今天的議程以及大家都認為相關這些民間金融公司的規範是應該要加強，但是我看到，包括法務部，包括司法院的書面報告，對於單獨就第二百零五條做這樣子的修正都有一些疑慮，尤其是它跟第二百零六條相關的關聯。","還有，今天兩個委員的版本也不太一樣，郭委員的版本是超過16%的部分無效，而主席的版本是如果超過16%，整個契約就無效了。所以兩個委員光是在這個部分也不太一樣，但是我看了法務部的書面報告，剛才有幾位委員都提到這個，次長也講得滿清楚，針對這次的修法跟第二百零六條之間的適用關係，這部分是不是請次長再進一步地說明？"],["黃次長世杰：跟委員報告，螢幕上所顯示的是最高法院103年度的判決，事實上它的背景是在修法前，所以會有請求權存在與否的問題，但是現在我們修法後已經是無效了，所以應該要用新法來做討論。現在我們還要再修這個法，而它的問題就是，不能因為我們修了這個，基本上假設我們簡稱它視同是利息的一部分，就是把這些巧利名目的費用，或是其他債權人額外收取的這些金錢，都把它計入利息，跟這個法定的利率上限來做比較的時候，不能因為這樣就排除第二百零六條對於這些項目的適用可能性，對此，很多的民法學者也有跟我們提醒這一點，所以我們會看是要在文字裡面去做敘述……"],["沈委員發惠：次長，我想每一個委員都一樣，希望法務部能夠儘快就這些相關的法條，就是針對目前第二百零五條的修正當中，你們能夠提出法務部相對的意見，這個部分，我想剛才幾位委員大概都已經問得滿清楚了，所以我就先請次長回座。","主席，我們現在請金管會銀行局主秘。"],["主席：請侯主秘。"],["侯主任秘書立洋：委員好。"],["沈委員發惠：主秘早。剛才我跟次長的這些對話裡面其實有很多部分就牽涉到了金管會，包括我們提到的，現在新型態的，以人頭公司的帳戶來作為詐騙的人頭帳戶。另外，我們今天所討論的主題，除了就民法第二百零五條直接就利息上限做規定之外，目前有關租賃公司這些融資業務，這部分是金管會所主管的業務，在111年12月7號財政委員會會議中，我就曾經質詢過這個部分，現在一般租賃公司的業務大概有幾種型態，包括資本性租賃；包括營業性租賃；最重要的是商品買賣的分期付款，所謂先買後付（BNTL）這個部分，另外可能還有一些應收帳款的買賣、資金貸與等等。我那時候就針對BNTL提出質詢，金管會的答復是說會跟相關業者進行溝通。至於溝通的結果，我們看到目前金管會是以業者自律規範來規範現行租賃公司的融資業務，對不對？"],["侯主任秘書立洋：是的。委員，目前我們請臺北市租賃公會參考大家的意見，由他們針對BNTL業務訂定自律規範。"],["沈委員發惠：這部分就是我最後要跟你們溝通的。看看各國的立法例，針對與租賃公司相關的，每一個國家都以相關法令來規範，只有我們用自律規範，目前我們對租賃公司沒有法律約束力！美國用消費者信用保護法；香港用放款人條例來規範這些租賃公司；日本有貸金業法；澳門則是融資租賃公司法律制度；只有臺灣用自律規範在規範！用自律規範來規範的最大問題是，這些自律規範第一是沒有罰則，所以違反自律規範沒有任何罰則！第二，我個人去看過公會的自律規範，也看過這幾家業者的網站，這幾大業者並沒有確實按照自律規範在執行。我舉自律規範第二條為例，所謂先買後付，業者應該要建立客訴專責單位，結果我上網去看發現這些公司都沒有成立客訴專責單位，只在網站上寫聯絡電話，就這樣！甚至沒說明這個聯絡公司的電話到底是總機或是專責的客服單位。"],["侯主任秘書立洋：跟委員報告，目前租賃公司並不是金管會主管的金融機構，但基於社會上有這樣的期待，所以我們先透過自律規範，請租賃公會先去做這樣的研議。目前有所謂三大租賃公司，且都是上市公司；既是上市公司，當然是由金管會主管，所以我們……"],["沈委員發惠：金管會是主管，但你們現在只用自律規範來規範這些租賃公司，我個人認為是相當不足！包括自律規範本身沒有罰則，且業者遵守的程度也很低。我的發言時間到了，就這部分，我還是希望金管會能夠提升對這些融資公司的監管強度，特別是在今天的修法裡。以一般民眾融資管道來說，財力健全的就直接到金融機構去貸款，接下來第二層才是我們今天所討論的融資公司。如果我們將這部分緊縮到一個程度後，那麼社會上真正有需要者可能就往第三層跑了，也就是往地下金融去，向地下錢莊借錢。因此，該如何拿捏對中間這一層，即融資公司的監理與相關立論……以今天的修法來說，法務部認為是民法第二百零六條的巧取利益，但司法實務在判決時，最常出現的是這算不算巧取利益？司法院在報告上就寫，借貸還款也有一定的合理成本費用，所以他所立的這些名目、所收的這些費用，到底是合法的成本費用，還是巧取利益？實務上的爭論就在這裡。這部分我個人比較支持法務部的立場，希望我們能等法務部就相關法規做盤整，提出法務部的版本之後我們再來進行審查，以上。"],["侯主任秘書立洋：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝沈委員，謝謝主秘。"],["主席（沈委員發惠代）：接下來我們請鍾佳濱鍾委員上台質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":144,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-36-34","speakers":["鍾佳濱","陳俊宇","羅智強","莊瑞雄","沈發惠","黃珊珊","郭國文","黃國昌","吳思瑤","林思銘","翁曉玲"],"page_start":109,"meetingDate":["2024-07-03"],"gazette_id":"1137001","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1137001_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第34次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"併案審查(一)委員郭國文等18人擬具「民法第二百零五條條文修正草案」案；(二)委員鍾佳濱等\n25人擬具「民法第二百零五條條文修正草案」案","agenda_id":"1137001_00003"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":0.03096875,"end":0.79034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":4.384718750000001,"end":6.494093750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":16.77096875,"end":19.31909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":19.67346875,"end":20.60159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":21.10784375,"end":21.25971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":22.829093750000002,"end":23.250968750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":23.43659375,"end":24.398468750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":25.02284375,"end":25.59659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":26.777843750000002,"end":31.722218750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":31.688468750000002,"end":32.21159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":32.56596875,"end":35.14784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":35.21534375,"end":35.26596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":35.58659375,"end":51.02721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":51.752843750000004,"end":53.744093750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":54.23346875,"end":57.67596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":57.67596875,"end":58.688468750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":58.87409375,"end":63.109718750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":63.16034375,"end":65.03346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","sta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我想沈委員所提到的這個今天早上的新聞這個刑事警察大隊已經發動搜索偵破這一個個案之後也移送這個地檢署來做偵辦當中那麼我們對於這個部分因為其實公司的帳戶法人的帳戶過去作為人頭帳戶之用也不是沒有但如果說沈委員所提到現在因為我們洗錢防治"},{"start":184.409,"end":184.629,"text":"．沈發惠"},{"start":205.799,"end":212.421,"text":"議員鍾佳濱等25人擬具:「民法第二百零五條條文修正草案．一）立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第1會期"},{"start":227.245,"end":253.536,"text":"目前我們所設定的包括洗錢房子等是一個破口所以這部分刑法部要提早來研議我們會跟金管會因為這個賬戶現在的這個新設開設相關的前置的這個審查還是由金管會這邊來做處理那公司賬戶是不是有這個成立的過程太過容易或是等等或是他的交易行為什麼異常我們可以來做交流來做研討來做預防"},{"start":254.315,"end":272.82,"text":"那這個針對今天的這個民法第205條的修正案我想剛才前面幾位委員都有提到大概我們這個提案委員我看他今天這樣子的提案委員跟今天所排定的議程基本上受到各不管不分黨派大家都支持支持這個"},{"start":275.961,"end":276.242,"text":"議員鍾佳濱等25人擬具"},{"start":305.401,"end":306.863,"text":"國務委員的版本是超過16%的部分無效"},{"start":321.363,"end":329.69,"text":"議員鍾佳濱等25人擬具:「民法第二百零五條條文修正草案．一）委員郭國文等18人擬具:「民法第二百零五條條文修正草案．一）委員鍾佳濱等25人擬具:「民法第二百零五條條文修正草案．一）委員"},{"start":346.207,"end":366.934,"text":"這個修法跟206條的適用關係,這部分是不是請市長再進一步的來說明?好,跟我們報告,這個螢幕上所顯示的這個最高法院103年度這個判決,事實上它的背景是在這個修法前,上次修法前,所以它會有請求權存在與否的問題。"},{"start":368.595,"end":375.049,"text":"但是現在我們的修法已經是無效了所以其實應該是要用新法來做討論那現在我們還要再修這個法"},{"start":379.295,"end":399.586,"text":"他的問題就是說不能因為我們修了這一個基本上假設我們簡稱說它是視同是利息的一部分就把這些巧立明牧的這些費用或是其他債權去額外收取的這些金錢都把它計入利息來跟這個法定的利益上限來做的時候不能因為這樣就排除206條對這些項目的適用可能性"},{"start":402.788,"end":426.208,"text":"那我想這個很多的民法學者又跟我們提醒這一點所以我們會看是要在文字裡面去敘述市長這部分我想每一個委員都一樣希望我們法務部能夠盡快的就這些相關的這些法案能夠做出新的那個就是你們能夠有相對的相對的針對目前的這205條的修正你們能夠提出你們法務部相對的意見那這個這個部分我想這個剛才這個幾位委員的"},{"start":431.292,"end":441.226,"text":"大概都已經問得蠻清楚。我先請市長請回。主席我們現在請金管會,今天金管會是銀行局主祕。"},{"start":446.427,"end":465.712,"text":"主委早啦,我想剛才我跟市長的這些對話裡面其實有很多的部分其實就牽涉到金管會啦這個包括說我們提到的現在新的這個現在新型態的以這個公司以這個公司的人頭公司的帳戶來進行作為詐騙的人頭帳戶這樣子相關的規定另外就是說我們今天所討論的主題除了這個民法"},{"start":472.193,"end":490.563,"text":"就民法205條直接就這個利息的上限做規定之外目前這個有關這個租賃公司的這些融資業務我想這部分是我們金管會所主管的業務這個我我本席在111年的這個12月7號我在財政委員會我就曾經質詢過質詢過有關這個"},{"start":500.562,"end":520.789,"text":"現在大概我們一般的租賃公司它的業務大概有幾種型態,包括資本的租賃,包括營業性租賃,重要的是商品買賣的分期付款,所謂先買後付,BMPL這個部分,另外可能還有一些營收賬款的買賣,資金的待遇等等。"},{"start":521.428,"end":544.133,"text":"但是我那時候就針對這個BMPL我就有提出質詢那時候金管會的答覆是說會跟這個相關的業者來進行溝通溝通的結果我們看到就是說我們目前金管會的方式是用這個業者的自律規範來規範現在目前的這個租賃公司的融資業務對不對"},{"start":548.855,"end":573.547,"text":"是的委員目前來說就是我們有請臺北市租賃公會就是參考這個大家的意見來訂了這個他們也針對這樣的一個所謂BNPL業務訂了一個自律規範這部分就是我最後要跟你們溝通我們看到各國的立法例你針對相關這種租賃公司每一個國家大家都有相關的法令在規範只有我們用自律規範"},{"start":575.134,"end":599.945,"text":"我們目前對這些租賃公司沒有這個法律的約束力的我們美國有用這個消費者信用保護法連香港香港他們用放緩人條例就來規範這些租賃公司日本他們有貸金業法澳門這個租賃這個融資租賃公司法律制度只有台灣用治癒規範在規範用治癒規範在規範他最大的問題是這些治癒規範第一個他也沒有法則"},{"start":603.905,"end":630.255,"text":"自律規範沒有法則啊所以你違反這個自律規範他沒有任何的法則第二就是這個自律規範其實我個人就按照這個工會的自律規範去看這幾家業者我看這幾家業者網站連這幾大業者都沒有確實的按照自律規範在執行了他們說像自律規範第二條我這邊就舉這個例子了自律規範第二條他說"},{"start":632.305,"end":643.369,"text":"這個先買後付業者應該要建立客訴專責單位結果上網去看這些公司都沒有什麼客訴他們都沒有成立客訴專責單位啊他們只有在網站上寫一個所謂聯絡我們的電話就這樣也沒有說明說這聯絡我們這個公司的電話打去是總機呢還是專責的客服單位呢"},{"start":658.991,"end":659.411,"text":"主席主席"},{"start":683.14,"end":698.057,"text":"但是你們盡管會主管,你們現在只用自律規範來規範這些租賃公司,我個人認為是相當的不足啦。包括他本身就沒有法則,包括你這自律規範本身他們業者的遵守程度也都很低啦齁。這個我時間也到。"},{"start":700.539,"end":715.094,"text":"這部分我還是希望金管會能夠提升我們對這些融資公司他們的監管的強度但是這個部分也特別要包括在今天的修法裡面就是說"},{"start":716.527,"end":743.032,"text":"一般的這個民眾他的這個融資管道大概就你有財力健全的他就到金融機構去直接去貸款接下來下第二層才是我們今天所討論的這些相關的融資公司但如果我們這個部分我們把他緊縮到一個程度之後可能真正社會需要他就往第三層跑了他就往這個地下金融去地下錢莊借錢了"},{"start":744.69,"end":768.866,"text":"所以這個如何拿捏這個中間這一層融資公司的這個監理跟他們的相關利潤其實像今天的修法法務部認為說這個206條巧取利益但事實上司法實務在判決的時候最常出現的就是說這算不算巧取利益"},{"start":770.773,"end":791.105,"text":"連司法院的報告上面就寫說因為借貸還款也有一定的合理成本費用所以他這些他所立的這些名目收的這些費用到底是合法的成本費用還是巧利還是巧取利益這個在深圳實務上的爭論就在這裡"},{"start":793.516,"end":807.137,"text":"所以這部分我個人也是比較支持法務部的立場希望說我們能夠等待法務部就相關的法規做盤整之後提出法務部自己的版本之後我們再來進行審查以上"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}