{"error":false,"id":["154466"],"data":{"IVOD_ID":154466,"IVOD_URL":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154466","日期":"2024-07-03","會議資料":{"會議代碼":"委員會-11-1-36-34","會議代碼:str":"第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第34次全體委員會議","屆":11,"會期":1,"會次":34,"臨時會會次":null,"種類":"委員會","委員會代碼":[36],"委員會代碼:str":["司法及法制委員會"],"標題":"第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第34次全體委員會議"},"影片種類":"Clip","開始時間":"2024-07-03T10:15:05+08:00","結束時間":"2024-07-03T10:30:33+08:00","影片長度":"00:15:28","支援功能":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/5ad2054f9b7cf4bd1f922ad58e32e53d266d74c0b9571b08d15f5ccb8d26769bd553ae1fc4f0545b5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"鍾佳濱","委員發言時間":"10:15:05 - 10:30:33","會議時間":"2024-07-03T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第34次全體委員會議（事由：併案審查\n（一）委員郭國文等18人擬具「民法第二百零五條條文修正草案」案。\n（二）委員鍾佳濱等25人擬具「民法第二百零五條條文修正草案」案。）","gazette":{"lineno":271,"blocks":[["鍾委員佳濱：（10時15分）主席，剛剛在提案說明時，因為本席是今天主席的關係，所以容許我很簡短先做提案說明。","鑒於近年來常有融資公司業者巧立手續費、保管費、違約金等名目，藉以規避現行年利率16%之限制，而據行政院消費者保護處統計，過去每年約三、四百件該類融資相關消費爭議，因銀行是特許行業，金管會對其有行政指導權，並能對其進行金檢，故銀行多不至於危害消費者。但這些泛稱融資公司的業者並無人監督，實務上也常見他們誘使大學生、失業者或上班族進行超貸，製造更多社會問題。因此本席提案修正民法第二百零五條第一項，明定超過利率上限之契約無效；並增加第二項，明定伴隨債務產生之各項規費、違約應納入共同計算。","現在有請法務部黃次長，還有金管會銀行局侯主秘，也同時邀請經濟部陳副署長和消保處陳副處長，一起並同協助說明。"],["主席：請剛才鍾委員所提到的這些單位主管上台備詢。"],["黃次長世杰：委員好。"],["鍾委員佳濱：次長，我先秀一下一些媒體報導，媒體報導說，租賃公司不看收入證明，高利貸放給小白，因此子債父償，畢竟多數家長不忍心看孩子欠錢，就會出來清償。又或者有人透過融資公司貸款38萬，但要先扣手續費9%，而代辦公司除了收手續費，還要加對保費，實際上只拿到30萬，甚至最後還了52萬，利率高達51%。請問次長，過去在您服務民眾的經驗中，有沒有常遇到這類爭議？"],["黃次長世杰：我想我們都會遇到。"],["鍾委員佳濱：副處長、主秘，還有副署長，應該都瞭解吧？我現在馬上來介紹一下。民法第二百零五條修正條文我剛剛已經介紹過了，本席主要的修正目的是防止融資公司巧立名目收費。我來介紹一下幾個情況給大家瞭解。","大家聽過分期付款吧？所謂分期付款，就是消費者─我要買車，可能要100萬，車商會幫忙我向銀行辦理分期付款，把我所買的車設定抵押給銀行；銀行就會把車款付給車商，未來我就是定期付銀行的分期付款，是不是這樣子？"],["黃次長世杰：是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：但分期付款一定會加上我要給銀行的利息嘛？"],["黃次長世杰：對。"],["鍾委員佳濱：這是正常的情況。那麼融資租賃呢？融資租賃就是承租人有信用問題，所以銀行不會貸款給他，於是他找了一個出租人，這個出租人就是融資租賃業者，去跟銀行辦理分期付款的貸款，買了一輛車在業者名下，設定抵押給銀行，然後再出租給承租人。但承租人每個月付的租金遠大於出租人的本息再加上業務費用，是不是這樣子？"],["黃次長世杰：是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：這就是融資租賃，因為沒有辦法融資，所以透過融資租賃公司以租賃的型態，實質上取得融資購車的需求。等到租約期滿，若有殘值，搞不好承租人還可以向出租人買，大概是這樣，但我們看一下現在的情況。有沒有聽過一輛機車可以貸30萬？有沒有聽過？"],["黃次長世杰：有。"],["鍾委員佳濱：請問主秘有沒有聽過一輛機車可以貸30萬？而且是年輕的上班族、學生？"],["侯主任秘書立洋：之前有，但現在有要求不可以這樣做了。"],["鍾委員佳濱：副署長有沒有聽過？"],["陳副署長秘順：有聽過新聞報導。"],["鍾委員佳濱：消保處副處長知道嗎？"],["陳副處長星宏：是。這在相關的消費爭議中曾經……"],["鍾委員佳濱：常常看到？來，我試著解釋看看，這非常複雜。同樣的，受害者沒有信用、沒辦法跟銀行申請，沒有辦法取得30萬，但融資公司說可以借30萬，只是要有機車。很奇怪，借錢給你還要機車幹什麼？設定給我嗎？沒有，機車沒辦法設定抵押。但是他說，我給你30萬，購買你機車所有的使用權，車子還是你的，只是我跟你買這輛車的使用權，然後你每個月要付我租金，這樣瞭解了？我給你30萬，購買你所擁有機車的使用權，車子還是你的，我跟你買這輛車的使用權，然後你每個月要付我租金，這樣瞭解了嗎？我30萬是買你機車主的使用權。但是你有沒有拿到30萬？沒有！他給你七扣八扣，只給你21萬。那這個30萬誰出？這個30萬其實他跟受害者拿了他的各種所謂的租車的相關資料，幫受害者去申請銀行的消貸、信用貸款。那很奇怪啊！受害者自己跟銀行借不到錢，但是融資公司有辦法用他的證件、用他本人跟銀行辦信用貸款，結果呢？這個受害者其實就背負了銀行的負債，他每個月交給融資公司的租金，融資公司把它拿去給銀行還本息，一旦這個受害者付不起這個租金，車子是他的，他付不起使用車子的租金，銀行就開始來跟他追債。","請問次長，這個模式是不是你所知道的？"],["黃次長世杰：是，我有看過這樣的情形。"],["鍾委員佳濱：他就很巧妙地用話術，事實上用受害者的身分去辦信用貸款，他本身又拿受害者的車子虛假製作了一個使用權的購買，然後再把錢給他，但是要付租金，然後去幫他還他的貸款。","還有一種情況叫做汽車超貸，永遠還不完，而且越欠越多。正常來講，我們買車，現在很多出社會沒多久的年輕人一下子就牽一輛車100萬，還可以有現金。什麼意思？融資公司說：來，買車的100萬我幫你付，然後我給你貸款120萬（債務），扣掉手續費，你可以拿12萬現金。買一輛車100萬還可以拿現金，天底下有這麼好的事情嗎？沒有！他就是負債120萬，前6個月可能還了本利6期共30萬，債務打消了本金20萬。融資公司說：欸！你還6期了，我幫你整合債務，然後我再找二胎──B融資公司，B融資公司說：我可以借你150萬。一輛車經過這樣子的一胎到二胎，本來借120萬，現在變成借150萬，但是這150萬是要拿100萬把他原來的前一胎代償100萬，還有50萬，但是B融資公司並沒有給他50萬，他只拿到35萬，扣了15萬的手續費，後續他要付150萬債務的分期償還，就這樣越還負債越多。請問次長有沒有聽過這樣一個目前坊間的做法？"],["黃次長世杰：我個人還沒有遇到這樣的……"],["鍾委員佳濱：你知不知道這樣的運作模式？"],["黃次長世杰：這可以想像。"],["鍾委員佳濱：主秘，你知不知道人家融資公司這樣做？"],["侯主任秘書立洋：第一次聽到委員這樣說。"],["鍾委員佳濱：第一次聽到？","陳副處長和陳副署長呢？陳副署長，您知道民間所謂汽車超額貸，越貸越多，永遠還不完的運作嗎？"],["陳副署長秘順：今天才看到……"],["鍾委員佳濱：第一次嘛！"],["陳副署長秘順：是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：現場有沒有人之前借過的？好像沒有。","我也是花了很多時間，民眾因為超額貸，越還欠越多，我們才知道原來融資公司是這樣操作的。","好，問題來了。次長，我們今天就是因為這些融資租賃公司透過各種話術、透過包裝，或者是機車借30萬，他是把機車假設為一個使用權的使用借貸關係，然後拿你的資料去設定信用貸款。另外一個是越貸越多，這是用一胎、二胎的包裝。現在你們法務部的書面報告說，本席的提案只能適用於借貸契約，融資租賃不能涵蓋，那請問我剛剛講的這些例子有什麼方法可以解決？如果刪除我提案當中的「借貸」兩個字，有沒有辦法針對這些狀況來解決問題？"],["黃次長世杰：跟委員報告，誠如剛才委員為我們詳細解說的，實務上巧立名目，甚至以變更契約類型的形式來完成超貸或借貸的目的，事實上樣態非常多，委員所例示的這些其實都是造成我們在適用民法這一條上面的困難，所以其實我們在討論的時候，也有學者建議是不是就以各種利息之債的方式，就是凡是需要付利息的債務統統納入……"],["鍾委員佳濱：統統納入？"],["黃次長世杰：但是如果這樣子的話，也會擔心……"],["鍾委員佳濱：能解決剛剛那個狀況嗎？"],["黃次長世杰：這有兩個問題，第一個是這個打擊面會非常的廣，所以我們才說我們要函詢所有各該主管機關的意見。"],["鍾委員佳濱：那我們再看下一個……"],["黃次長世杰：第二個問題是說……"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，請說。"],["黃次長世杰：即使是我們剛剛講的應付利息之債，但是剛剛我們看到委員所例示的這些情形，它的行為其實很多根本就不是用利息的方式來處理……"],["鍾委員佳濱：是的！就是我要說的下一項……"],["黃次長世杰：所以這個部分事實上還是我們一開始有講的，如之前委員垂詢的，可能還要加強行政的監理跟管理，才有辦法去遏止這樣的脫法行為。因為其實剛剛我們所看到的這些例子，假設它進到法院，事實上透過司法的審理，有可能法院會把它做實質認定，或者是用第二百零六條來處理，但是我們現在看到比較困難的是，會去借這種借貸的，很多都是比較弱勢的……"],["鍾委員佳濱：是的！"],["黃次長世杰：比較弱勢的債務人，他們沒有辦法去負擔這個司法程序的成本跟這個過程，所以民法雖然已經有規定了，但是他們用不到。"],["鍾委員佳濱：剛剛次長講了很重要的一點，很多這種借貸的受害者是因為在正常的金融體系沒有辦法借到錢，在正規的銀行看起來，他的信用不好，才會有這些民間的借貸公司用融資租賃的方式來跟他詐騙，所以侯主秘，我們常常說銀行要普惠金融，是不是？"],["侯主任秘書立洋：是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：30萬的小額貸款銀行借不到，結果一個初出社會的年輕人拿機車、用了10年的機車還可以貸30萬，想都不敢想啊，但是他就拿到他所需要的錢！","次長，高額違約金你剛剛已經點到了，為了節省時間，我就繼續往下講。融資公司還會做什麼事情？我之前也揭發過，叫做無卡分期。什麼叫無卡分期？信用卡分期是信用卡用你的信用擔保，由信用卡公司向商家付錢，然後再由信用卡發卡銀行來跟消費者（客戶）收錢；無卡分期就是沒有銀行做中介。沒有中介，誰在分期？就是消費者買賣的這個買賣契約變成了借貸關係嘛！我的分期付款是我欠你錢，我分期還給你，但是消費者聽到無卡分期，以為自己就是買個東西，分期就是買賣的分期付款，就這樣而已，但是一旦你分期付款的模式被破解，譬如說你後悔了、你不要了，他說你拆了包裝不能退，但是你的債務還是存在，不因為你退貨就能解除這個借貸關係，是不是這樣子？"],["黃次長世杰：是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，我們再往下看。所以這裡面我們剛剛講到還要循行政的方法，請問「金融服務業提供金融商品或服務前說明契約重要內容及揭露風險辦法」是不是銀行局所管的？"],["侯主任秘書立洋：這是我們的法律事務處，但是相關的金融機構都要符合這個規定。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，這裡面有寫到重要內容要揭露，對不對？"],["侯主任秘書立洋：是的。"],["鍾委員佳濱：消保處副處長，金融消費者保護法是誰管的？"],["陳副處長星宏：金保法本身是金管會，但是消保法本身也是就信用跟信用的利率必須要明確揭露……"],["鍾委員佳濱：所以銀行局跟你們都有關聯。好，它一樣說這要揭露。","接下來，根據目前我們正在審理中、即將要送二讀的洗錢防制法修正草案第五條，次長，這個洗防法是法務部主管的？"],["黃次長世杰：是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：修正草案第五條有講到「融資性租賃」，請問次長，我剛剛指的那兩種方式是不是都屬於融資性租賃規範的涵攝範圍內？"],["黃次長世杰：有可能；依照它的業務有可能。"],["鍾委員佳濱：修正草案第十條說要留下交易紀錄，要保存，而且其辦法要由中央目的事業主管機關會商法務部及相關機關定之，是不是這樣？"],["黃次長世杰：我想這個部分要說明的是，委員所提到的、目前有提到的洗防法相關草案的內容，事實上都是現行法已有規定的條次，所以我們這邊要求它所適用的是關於洗防義務的規定，但是我們今天討論的其實是一個監理行為……"],["鍾委員佳濱：對！"],["黃次長世杰：所以是否在它的監理行為裡面要納入這些委員所講的相關監理和……"],["鍾委員佳濱：揭露啦！錄音錄影啦！"],["黃次長世杰：還是要由目的事業主管機關來處理。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，目的事業主管機關會是誰？我們來開始考校一下對方。融資性租賃公司是屬於金管會管的嗎？主秘，是不是你們管的？"],["侯主任秘書立洋：目前不是，但是剛剛提到洗錢防制法的部分，有關洗錢防制的部分是我們會裡面……"],["鍾委員佳濱：來，我們看一下洗錢防制的部分……"],["主席：鍾委員，你已經超時很久了。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，我們趕快。所以我的訴求是，希望未來在行政院的洗錢防制法當中可以要求融資公司揭露風險跟錄音、錄影，以及第七條要有指定事項、要定期查核、要會商法務部。所以我的結論是，未來是不是請行政院法務部跟金管會在洗錢防制法修正草案通過後，依照前述法條推行融資租賃業的定型化契約？剛剛所講的那些內容，如果有一個定型化契約，以後在法院訴求的時候就有所依據了，是不是請次長回去會同考量一下？"],["黃次長世杰：我想依照剛剛那個條文，還是要由目的事業主管機關會商法務部來做，我們還是要請主管機關來會商，因為剛剛金管會有提到在洗防的範圍內，他們是指定的中央目的事業主管機關沒有錯，我們再跟他們會商，看如何來處理這個問題。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，謝謝次長、謝謝副署長、副處長跟主秘，謝謝主席。"],["主席（鍾委員佳濱）：接下來請林楚茵委員。林楚茵、林楚茵委員不在。","請傅崐萁委員。傅崐萁、傅崐萁委員不在。","請林思銘委員。林思銘、林思銘委員不在。","請楊瓊瓔委員。楊瓊瓔、楊瓊瓔委員不在。","請蘇清泉委員。蘇清泉、蘇清泉委員不在。","請黃珊珊委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":144,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-36-34","speakers":["鍾佳濱","陳俊宇","羅智強","莊瑞雄","沈發惠","黃珊珊","郭國文","黃國昌","吳思瑤","林思銘","翁曉玲"],"page_start":109,"meetingDate":["2024-07-03"],"gazette_id":"1137001","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1137001_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第34次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"併案審查(一)委員郭國文等18人擬具「民法第二百零五條條文修正草案」案；(二)委員鍾佳濱等\n25人擬具「民法第二百零五條條文修正草案」案","agenda_id":"1137001_00003"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":0.03096875,"end":0.41909375000000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":5.38034375,"end":21.41159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":21.64784375,"end":31.70534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":31.739093750000002,"end":45.12096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":45.306593750000005,"end":66.68721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":66.77159375000001,"end":74.78721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":75.31034375,"end":76.35659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":76.54221875,"end":78.95534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":79.15784375,"end":86.95409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":87.03846875,"end":91.20659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":91.84784375000001,"end":91.88159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":91.88159375000001,"end":92.15159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":92.15159375,"end":92.25284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":92.99534375,"end":93.38346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":93.53534375000001,"end":94.14284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":94.81784375000001,"end":95.22284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":95.66159375000001,"end":96.57284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":97.06221875,"end":98.93534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":99.40784375000001,"end":101.17971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":101.50034375000001,"end":111.67596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":111.99659375,"end":115.65846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":115.89471875000001,"end":121.17659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":121.66596875,"end":123.67409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":123.80909375,"end":129.05721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":129.46221875,"end":130.84596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":130.84596875,"end":134.81159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":135.58784375000002,"end":147.92346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":148.14284375,"end":151.33221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":151.68659375000001,"end":153.05346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":153.89721875,"end":154.96034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":155.17971875,"end":156.76596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":157.32284375,"end":158.20034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":158.45346875,"end":159.46596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":159.93846875,"end":161.54159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":161.62596875,"end":162.03096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":162.28409375,"end":165.60846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":165.86159375,"end":167.56596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":167.80221875,"end":171.81846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":171.97034375,"end":185.16659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":185.55471875,"end":188.77784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":189.16596875000002,"end":190.66784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":190.98846875,"end":191.62971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":191.81534375,"end":194.05971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":194.21159375000002,"end":196.05096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":196.52346875,"end":196.92846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":197.23221875000002,"end":198.48096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":198.58221875,"end":199.69596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":199.96596875,"end":200.91096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":201.29909375000003,"end":204.37034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":204.67409375000003,"end":213.83721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":214.54596875000001,"end":225.10971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":225.49784375000002,"end":230.69534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":231.01596875,"end":232.18034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":232.53471875000002,"end":236.55096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":237.47909375,"end":237.85034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":238.20471875,"end":239.06534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":239.41971875000002,"end":243.469718750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