{"error":false,"id":["154480"],"data":{"IVOD_ID":154480,"IVOD_URL":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154480","日期":"2024-07-03","會議資料":{"會議代碼":"委員會-11-1-36-34","會議代碼:str":"第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第34次全體委員會議","屆":11,"會期":1,"會次":34,"臨時會會次":null,"種類":"委員會","委員會代碼":[36],"委員會代碼:str":["司法及法制委員會"],"標題":"第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第34次全體委員會議"},"影片種類":"Clip","開始時間":"2024-07-03T10:47:31+08:00","結束時間":"2024-07-03T10:55:17+08:00","影片長度":"00:07:46","支援功能":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/5ad2054f9b7cf4bd220bb0859a274aa0266d74c0b9571b08d15f5ccb8d26769b8a3d5adc657703f85ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"郭國文","委員發言時間":"10:47:31 - 10:55:17","會議時間":"2024-07-03T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第34次全體委員會議（事由：併案審查\n（一）委員郭國文等18人擬具「民法第二百零五條條文修正草案」案。\n（二）委員鍾佳濱等25人擬具「民法第二百零五條條文修正草案」案。）","gazette":{"lineno":408,"blocks":[["郭委員國文：（10時47分）謝謝主席。有請法務部黃次長。"],["主席：請黃次長，謝謝。"],["黃次長世杰：是，委員好。"],["郭委員國文：次長，我們現在是一個低利率的社會，資金氾濫，低到什麼程度？之所以會提出這一個修正草案的主要原因就是我們看到中租迪和等三大融資公司，我們根據這三大融資公司2023年的財務報表，很清楚知道它的資金成本非常低，總共三大融資公司跟銀行的往來大概將近有三千億之多，擔保銀行的借款最低只有1.63%，無擔保銀行的借貸是1.15%，這是公布在財報裡頭的。所以在它資金成本這麼低的情況底下，對照這個個案，我們以手機貸的部分換算起來大概26%，所以這個是超級暴利！這個不是一個單純的獲利行為而已，這簡直是地上錢莊，我跟你講，這不是地下錢莊，合法的地下錢莊說起來就地上錢莊嘛！對不對？","次長，所以為什麼搬銀行的錢──也是人民存款的錢去借給另外一批缺錢的人民，結果它居然可以賺到這麼多？有些網路個案最高還有超過40%，也因為如此，有一些委員提出要有一個融資公司的專法，但是要立一個專法曠日廢時，因此我們用單條條文的修正案。","當我們提出這一個修正案的時候，我們看到中租迪和對外澄清說：沒有！它們的車貸就3%到12%之間，也沒有所謂的違約金、巧利名目，那就代表對它們沒有影響啊！對最大融資公司沒有影響，那這個法通過怎麼會有什麼問題呢？據聞法務部有意見，法務部的一個意見是屬於定義上，說這些規費、行政規費、管理費、違約金不屬利息的定義，是不是？"],["黃次長世杰：我們的書面報告是針對違約金的部分做討論……"],["郭委員國文：就只有違約金？"],["黃次長世杰：手續費等其他費用的部分是另外來看。"],["郭委員國文：另外來看？"],["黃次長世杰：對。"],["郭委員國文：次長，基本上我們就是用總額上限的概念，就不調高這16%嘛，如果說16%這些項目不納入的話，那我要試問一下次長，那16%乾脆把它調回來12%就好了啊，往下調就可以了呀！這才是解決它的問題嘛；你如果容許它外加、不讓它內含的話，你如果讓它外加在外面，那不如就把這個標準就降為12%。為什麼提出12%的說法，你知道嗎？2000年修正利率的時候，從原來的20%降到16%，最初的草案是要降到12%，也是貴部有所保留，才會互相折衝變成16%，不然你就是回到12%，不是內含就是外加嘛，我就教次長的看法怎麼樣？"],["黃次長世杰：跟委員報告，因為民法是民事法律關係的普通法，我們又是民商合一的體例，所以這一條適用的範圍不是只有我們認為巧立名目的部分，還會有很多的商業行為，除非它另外有特別法規定，不然的話都會適用到我們這一條。所以當初關於利率的討論，我們是有發函，因為我們算是民法主管機關，但是對於各行各業的衝擊，我們並沒有辦法單獨做決定，所以我們有發函給所有相關的單位，綜整大家的意見之後才訂在這個16%！","那這一次的修法，因為它有一個蠻強的法律效果，只要是所謂的費用或是有利的這一些名詞，甚至還有所謂的相關費用這個比較概括的概念，都規定要計算納入利息上限。其實它的影響層面蠻大的，這裡面的費用範圍有我們現在想要制約的這些巧立名目部分，但是也會有合法交易過程中所產生的，譬如說公證的費用或者是會費等等的，這些部分要不要來把它納入，或是我們可以用什麼方式去排除，這個我們都要經過討論。同樣地，也需要函詢所有各該主管機關就各行各業，甚至政府機關本身在適用這個利率規定的時候有沒有什麼來補充、擬定的？","那我也要跟委員報告，我們很積極在處理這個事情，所以我們並不是反對這個修法的方向，而是如何能夠有效制約我們想要制約的行為，但是又不會產生不當的副作用，去擾亂到其他正當合法的交易，這個是我們所考慮的，跟委員報告。"],["郭委員國文：對，法律有一個通用的原則，我大概可以理解你剛剛的說明，但是你剛剛提到，巧立名目的各項項目當中，你認為有些東西可以納入、有些東西沒有納入，是不是？"],["黃次長世杰：跟委員報告，主要是違約金這一項，因為……"],["郭委員國文：不宜納入？應該外加？"],["黃次長世杰：應該這樣講，我們討論的時候其實也有提到，假設它是巧立名目的違約金，事實上它根本就不屬於法律上違約金性質的，我們也可以透過法院的認定，用第二百零六條來把它排除；但是假設它是我們民法所規定的違約金，它是在債務不履行之後才會產生，而且它有損害賠償預定額或懲罰性違約金兩種。更重要的是，法院對於這種違約金，民法第二百五十二條規定它可以予以酌減，我們如果直接把它定在第二百零五條第二項裡面，那有可能涉及跟第二百五十二條的適用關係，這個是不是會限縮到法院對於違約金酌減的權力行使，事實上還需要再討論。","所以我們建議違約金不一定要把它放在例示名詞裡面，但是……"],["郭委員國文：把它排除之外，那哪些可以內含？"],["黃次長世杰：像我剛剛講的這些實質跟形式的認定，我們會在立法理由裡面妥為說明，我們是建議這樣，那未來法院在裁判的時候可以有它的基礎。"],["郭委員國文：所以你是要積極促成，你不是反對？"],["黃次長世杰：對！"],["郭委員國文：你正在釐清哪些可以內含，哪些應該外加、排除的？"],["黃次長世杰：是！"],["郭委員國文：那麻煩你把這個內含跟外加的項目讓我知道一下，我來核對一下實際的狀況，到底這個條款通過之後有無有約束的可能，這是第一。"],["黃次長世杰：是！"],["郭委員國文：第二個部分，你就慎思一下，因為當年(2000年)的版本，老實講，以現在的低利率社會來看的話，就是12%，當初也是你們去問過利害關係人的結果，才讓它變成是16%。"],["黃次長世杰：是！"],["郭委員國文：這有沒有調降的空間，也請你回去好好思考一下，好不好？"],["黃次長世杰：好，那我們再來研議，謝謝。"],["郭委員國文：謝謝次長。"],["主席：謝謝郭委員、謝謝次長。","接下來請陳培瑜委員，陳培瑜，陳培瑜委員不在。","請黃國昌委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":144,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-36-34","speakers":["鍾佳濱","陳俊宇","羅智強","莊瑞雄","沈發惠","黃珊珊","郭國文","黃國昌","吳思瑤","林思銘","翁曉玲"],"page_start":109,"meetingDate":["2024-07-03"],"gazette_id":"1137001","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1137001_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第34次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"併案審查(一)委員郭國文等18人擬具「民法第二百零五條條文修正草案」案；(二)委員鍾佳濱等\n25人擬具「民法第二百零五條條文修正草案」案","agenda_id":"1137001_00003"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":0.03096875,"end":1.68471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":8.316593750000003,"end":9.56534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":10.054718750000003,"end":12.535343750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":12.822218750000001,"end":13.98659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":16.24784375,"end":16.99034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":17.58096875,"end":18.03659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":18.03659375,"end":38.84346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":38.978468750000005,"end":41.99909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":42.06659375,"end":47.28096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":47.68596875,"end":58.21596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":58.266593750000006,"end":67.81784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":68.12159375,"end":69.52221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":70.68659375,"end":73.04909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":73.62284375,"end":80.33909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":81.35159375,"end":82.87034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":82.53284375000001,"end":82.70159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":83.24159375,"end":101.82096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":103.28909375,"end":117.36284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":117.83534375,"end":134.20409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":134.57534375,"end":140.19471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":140.48159375,"end":143.50221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":143.82284375,"end":146.18534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":146.16846875000002,"end":146.57346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":146.57346875000002,"end":156.19221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":156.86721875,"end":157.44096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":157.66034375,"end":165.42284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":161.17034375,"end":162.57096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":165.43971875,"end":172.98284375},{"speaker":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