{"error":false,"id":["154485"],"data":{"IVOD_ID":154485,"IVOD_URL":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154485","日期":"2024-07-03","會議資料":{"會議代碼":"委員會-11-1-36-34","會議代碼:str":"第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第34次全體委員會議","屆":11,"會期":1,"會次":34,"臨時會會次":null,"種類":"委員會","委員會代碼":[36],"委員會代碼:str":["司法及法制委員會"],"標題":"第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第34次全體委員會議"},"影片種類":"Clip","開始時間":"2024-07-03T10:55:27+08:00","結束時間":"2024-07-03T11:07:53+08:00","影片長度":"00:12:26","支援功能":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/5ad2054f9b7cf4bd8df886e3675a71a7266d74c0b9571b08e8e3eb0bf88d021ce1b2bb67ee2f385d5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"黃國昌","委員發言時間":"10:55:27 - 11:07:53","會議時間":"2024-07-03T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第34次全體委員會議（事由：併案審查\n（一）委員郭國文等18人擬具「民法第二百零五條條文修正草案」案。\n（二）委員鍾佳濱等25人擬具「民法第二百零五條條文修正草案」案。）","gazette":{"lineno":442,"blocks":[["黃委員國昌：（10時55分）謝謝主席，有請次長。"],["主席：有請黃次長。"],["黃次長世杰：委員好。"],["黃委員國昌：次長好。詐騙、洗錢猖獗，嚴肅掃蕩我覺得這是政府應該有的立場。"],["黃次長世杰：是。"],["黃委員國昌：只是在整個實際實踐上面的表現，我必須要老實講，讓非常多國人非常、非常地失望，特別是針對詐騙、洗錢的首腦跟大戶。當然，在整個掃蕩的過程當中，我們尊重檢察官在個案犯罪的偵辦指揮，但是有一些是比較大的，可能會牽涉到整個法務部政策面向的，今天要來請教一下次長。"],["黃次長世杰：是。"],["黃委員國昌：第一個，我們為了防止有重大犯罪嫌疑的人可能會跑掉，所以我們在入出國及移民法第六十四條第一項規定，當他要出去的時候，有事實足認當事人有下列情況之一可以暫時留置、進行調查，其中第五款的規定：因案經司法或軍法機關通知留置。我下一個問題，通知留置的時候需不需要放拘票在海關？"],["黃次長世杰：這個看起來應該以24小時為限才能夠做的吧，如果在24小時之內應該就不需要，這是在海關那邊做的；如果要超過24小時的話就需要，但是24小時之內不需要。"],["黃委員國昌：我們來看一下，新北地檢署通知移民署禁止出國及暫時留置的公文上面註明，入出國暫時留置的時候，需要檢附拘票第一聯影本，以拘提的強制處分作為移民法第六十四條第一項第五款暫時留置的法律依據，新北地檢署這樣的法律見解同不同意？"],["黃次長世杰：應該不是這樣子。"],["黃委員國昌：那是怎麼樣？請說明。"],["黃次長世杰：如同委員在螢幕上所顯示的，本部的意見是，如果依照剛才的條文來進行暫時留置的時候，是不需要拘票的。"],["黃委員國昌：這會牽涉到一個非常直接的問題，因為當初新北地檢署要求要放一個拘票在海關，那有沒有放拘票的影本在海關？有放拘票的影本在海關。但是放了拘票影本在海關以後發生了什麼事情？發生了人到海關的時候，還是把他放了，讓當初所簽發的那張拘票毫無意義！你簽發拘票就是不讓他出去，人準備要走的時候去執行拘票；結果現實上，洗錢大戶到海關的時候，人還是放走了。","這有兩個層次的問題，一個層次的問題是，拘票的時效可以有多長？也就是我簽一張拘票出去，我不用踐行、不經合法傳喚、無正當理由不到場，我就直接可以用強制處分把人帶走嘛，簽一張拘票的效期有多長？"],["黃次長世杰：應該沒有明文的規定。"],["黃委員國昌：沒有明文的規定？"],["黃次長世杰：對。"],["黃委員國昌：那法務部在政策上面認為，一張拘票的效期不應該超過多久，這樣才會符合有關於憲法人身自由保障的意旨？還是法務部的立場也認為不需要有時效，拘票可以1年、可以1個月、可以5年？"],["黃次長世杰：這個目前法律沒有明文的規定，但是因為拘票的立法意旨就是要完成這個強制處分的目的，所以如果我們明定一個時限的話，也可能會影響國家強制力、偵查犯罪的問題，所以我想未來在法律上要不要明文規定相關的條件、要件、準則，我們回去再研議一下。"],["黃委員國昌：我希望法務部在這件事情上面，兩件事：第一個，在法律上面，就效期，需不需要做限制？第二個，在政策面上面，通常發拘票就是什麼？通常發拘票就是要去帶人了啦！"],["黃次長世杰：對。"],["黃委員國昌：結果人沒有帶到，然後拘票如果簽一個月、三個月、五個月，那個對於整個拘票強制處分的效力、對人身自由的侵害是非常大的。"],["黃次長世杰：是。"],["黃委員國昌：也正是因為這個樣子，所以我剛剛在講的，之前把洗錢大戶放走，明明就發拘票到海關了，結果人還是讓他跑了！這件事情在責任上面的追究，我之前不斷請教新北地檢署，你們有沒有縱放違失的行政調查，什麼時候要結束？然後我到3月的時候，新北地檢署公開講，他們沒有辦法提供行政調查的結果。這件事情從發生到現在已經一年多了，我上一次質詢部長的時候，部長說會督導、會瞭解，目前督導、瞭解的情況如何？"],["黃次長世杰：這個我們有請高檢署重新再做調查，目前還在調查中。"],["黃委員國昌：等一下、等一下，是重新做調查，還是要新北把行政調查報告交出來？這兩回事喔！來，我回去給你看……"],["黃次長世杰：是。"],["黃委員國昌：新北地檢署整整拖了一年多，用各式各樣的理由說他們還在做行政調查，我是覺得非常匪夷所思啦！非常的匪夷所思啦！連效率很慢的監察院都調查出來了，結果新北地檢署的效率比監察院還要差，比監察院還要差的結果，我上次問了部長，部長說他要去瞭解，所以你們今天的答案是什麼？今天的答案是新北地檢根本沒有做行政調查，所以要高檢署重新調查嗎？"],["黃次長世杰：他們也是交給新北地檢，在調查當中。"],["黃委員國昌：所以還需要多久？"],["黃次長世杰：我們會儘快促請他們……"],["黃委員國昌：儘快是多久？這太扯了吧！今天如果事情只發生一個月，我要他交行政調查報告出來，對他們不公平嘛！但已經搞了一年多了。"],["黃次長世杰：是。"],["黃委員國昌：搞了一年多欸！這樣的效率，次長，你滿意嗎？"],["黃次長世杰：我們還是會再促請他們趕快把行政調查提起……"],["黃委員國昌：還需要多久？還是我們隔了半年以後還要問相同的問題？"],["黃次長世杰：我們會儘快促請他們……"],["黃委員國昌：好。下一個，法務部網路流量紀錄牽涉到有關於詐欺犯罪，我們要有效地去偵查，不管是詐欺犯罪、重大的犯罪，我們需要去查IP位址等等的網路流量紀錄，在立法的政策上面，我們是支持的，但我看到法務部回的函說建置的費用超過上百億，我看了非常的震驚！所以我上次請教部長，你們那個100億的基準、跟三大業者開會的資料、怎麼收費的，他說一個禮拜之內要提供，我到今天還沒有收到。"],["黃次長世杰：是，跟委員報告，因為這個部分在行政院內跨部會討論的時候，是由警政署來負責評估，調查局是負責協助而已，我們有函請警政署提供相關的明細，但他們一直都還沒有提供這樣子，所以我們可能……"],["黃委員國昌：所以在怠惰的是內政部嘛！但請次長回去轉告部長，做承諾的人是他。"],["黃次長世杰：是。我會……"],["黃委員國昌：做承諾的人是他！"],["黃次長世杰：是，瞭解。"],["黃委員國昌：請他趕快協調把東西交出來。"],["黃次長世杰：好的。"],["黃委員國昌：我們是希望7月16號以前要完成立法，但如果這些基礎的資料沒有掌握，我們就匆匆完成立法的話，恐怕不負責任吧！"],["黃次長世杰：是，我想警政署也應該把他們如何計算的方式講清楚。"],["黃委員國昌：因為某個程度上，我們一點頭過了，上百億喔！上百億喔！"],["黃次長世杰：是。"],["黃委員國昌：就給三大電信業者了，此事非同小可喔！請部長趕快履行承諾把東西交出來，可以嗎？"],["黃次長世杰：好，我會回去轉達。"],["黃委員國昌：另外一個非常重要的事情，我今天利用這個質詢，我希望法務部在政策上面要責成高檢署，甚至有必要的話，跟檢察總長相互協調，要澈底掃蕩這種犯罪，澈底掃蕩什麼犯罪？我們第一線的軍人、調查員他們需要用的防彈背心，來，我把它列舉一下，這個是過去這幾年曾經發生過的弊案，抗彈的纖維布因為利潤非常高，裡面有一堆不肖業者已經形成一個集團了，從2017年、2018年、2019年、2020年、2021年，甚至到現在2024年的今天，2024年的今天這個犯罪集團針對攸關我們軍人安全、第一線執法人員安全的防彈背心──抗彈纖維布，弊端一堆啦！現在我這個是只有把它列出來。"],["黃次長世杰：是。"],["黃委員國昌：這已經成為公開資訊了，年年涉弊，我們進一步的去看，現在有被判刑確定的一位攻衛公司負責人叫做楊春海，當然還有其他共犯牽涉其中，用其他人頭公司，圍標的圍標、偽造產地證明的偽造產地證明，各式各樣的弊案，到現在都還是現在進行式，針對這一種持續性的、有組織的、有計畫性的犯罪，因為牽涉到了我們第一線，第一線有很多官兵弟兄他們的安全，因此這件事情，我希望法務部跟高檢署協調，有必要甚至跟最高檢察署協調，針對這樣一個有計畫、有組織，在嚴重影響我們國軍安全的弊案，必須要徹查，必須要徹查！不要因為牽涉到的廠商後臺很硬，甚至有人介入影響，就軟趴趴的，可以承諾嗎？次長。"],["黃次長世杰：我們一定會跟高檢署反映，我想檢察官的辦案一定會本於職權嚴懲不法，絕對不會受到任何關說的影響。"],["黃委員國昌：希望是這樣啦！我相信，我相信，我也希望是這個樣子。但今天我是一個善意的提醒，跟次長講完了以後，法務部可以回去清查我剛剛所講的那些案子，有一些是公共工程委員會抓到弊端的、停權的、不給錢的，結果相關的，不管圍標的，還是偽造、變造文件的相關案件，現在拖延得非常久，我做了完整的表給法務部做參考。"],["黃次長世杰：是，我會轉達高檢署。"],["黃委員國昌：今天是剛開始，我一定給你們時間做準備，下一次部長來的時候，我會深入針對在整個犯罪集團的掃蕩上面，是不是有認真徹查跟偵辦來請教部長，謝謝。"],["黃次長世杰：好，謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝黃委員，謝謝黃次長。","接下來有請翁曉玲委員、翁曉玲、翁曉玲委員不在。","請吳思瑤委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":144,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-36-34","speakers":["鍾佳濱","陳俊宇","羅智強","莊瑞雄","沈發惠","黃珊珊","郭國文","黃國昌","吳思瑤","林思銘","翁曉玲"],"page_start":109,"meetingDate":["2024-07-03"],"gazette_id":"1137001","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1137001_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第34次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"併案審查(一)委員郭國文等18人擬具「民法第二百零五條條文修正草案」案；(二)委員鍾佳濱等\n25人擬具「民法第二百零五條條文修正草案」案","agenda_id":"1137001_00003"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":0.57096875,"end":0.99284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":11.77596875,"end":14.10471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":14.20596875,"end":15.066593750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":18.03659375,"end":18.47534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":18.79596875,"end":22.37346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":22.81221875,"end":26.37284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":26.777843750000002,"end":28.54971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":28.90409375,"end":31.33409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":31.671593750000003,"end":33.03846875},{"spea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我們來看一下齁"},{"start":119.887,"end":141.096,"text":"新北地檢署通知移民署禁止出國及暫時留置的公文上面註明入出國暫時留置的時候需要減負G票第一年的銀本以G體等強制處分作為移民法六十四條第一項第五款暫時留置的法律依據新北地檢署這樣的法律見解同不同意"},{"start":141.681,"end":146.424,"text":"這會牽涉到一個非常直接的問題因為當初新北地檢署他們要求要放一個G票在海關"},{"start":164.116,"end":191.355,"text":"有沒有放G票的影本在海關有放G票的影本在海關但是放了G票的影本在海關以後發生了什麼事情發生了人到海關的時候還是把他放了還是把他放了讓當初所簽發的那張G票毫無意義你簽發G票就是不讓他出去嘛人準備要走的時候去執行G票嘛"},{"start":192.694,"end":220.029,"text":"但結果現實上洗錢大戶到海關的時候人還是放走了這兩個層次的問題一個層次的問題是G票它的時效可以有多長也就是我簽一張G票出去簽一張G票出去我不用健行不經合法傳話無證當留不到場我就直接可以用強制處分把人帶走簽一張G票它的效期有多長"},{"start":222.499,"end":243.929,"text":"應該沒有明文的規定沒有明文的規定那法務部在政策上面認為一張G票的效期不應該超過多久這樣才會符合有關於憲法人身自由保障的意旨還是法務部的立場也認為說不需要有時效G票可以一年可以一個月可以五年"},{"start":245.711,"end":245.831,"text":"主席"},{"start":262.586,"end":284.731,"text":"所以我想我們未來在法律上要不要明文規定相關的條件要件準則我們回去再來研議我希望法務部就這件事情上面兩件事嘛第一個在法律上面就效期需不需要做限制第二個在政策面上面因為通常發G票就是要去帶人了啦"},{"start":287.652,"end":306.28,"text":"結果人沒有帶到然後G票我如果簽一個月三個月五個月那個對於整個G票強制處分的效力對人身自由的侵害是非常大的那也正是因為這個樣子喔所以之前我剛剛在講的把洗錢大戶放走"},{"start":307.486,"end":328.553,"text":"明明就放G票到海關了結果人還是讓他跑了人還是讓他跑了這件事情在責任上面的追究我之前不斷的請教新北地檢署說你們有沒有重範圍屍的行政調查什麼時候要結束然後我到3月的時候新北地檢署公開講"},{"start":329.963,"end":342.737,"text":"他沒有辦法提供行政調查的結果這件事情從發生到現在已經一年多了我上一次去質詢部長的時候部長說會督導會了解目前督導了解的情況如何"},{"start":343.905,"end":346.588,"text":"新北地檢署整整拖了一年多用各式各樣的理由說他們還在做行政調查"},{"start":363.547,"end":378.204,"text":"我是覺得非常匪夷所思啦非常的匪夷所思啊連效率很慢的監察院都調查出來了結果我們的新北地檢署的效率啊比監察院還要差比監察院還要差的結果我上次"},{"start":379.421,"end":403.43,"text":"問了部長部長說他要去了解所以你們今天的答案是什麼今天的答案是新北地檢根本沒有做行政調查所以要高檢署重新調查嗎他們也是交給新北地檢在調查當中所以還需要多久我們會盡快來促請盡快是多久這太扯了吧今天如果事情只發生一個月我要他交行政調查報告出來對他們不公平嘛"},{"start":404.468,"end":404.588,"text":"主席"},{"start":422.717,"end":442.799,"text":"下一個法務部網路流量記錄這牽涉到了有關於詐欺犯罪我們要有效的去偵查不管是詐欺犯罪重大的犯罪我們需要去查IP的位置等等的網路流量記錄在立法的政策上面我們是支持的但我看到法務部回的函說"},{"start":444.861,"end":460.126,"text":"建制的費用超過上百億我看了非常的正經啊所以我上次請教部長說你們那個一百億的基準跟三大業者開會的資料怎麼收費的他說一個禮拜之內要提供我到今天還沒有收到"},{"start":461.472,"end":476.824,"text":"跟委員報告因為這個部分在行政院內跨部會討論的時候是由警政署來負責評估調查局是負責協助而已我們有含請警政署提供相關的明細但他們一直都還沒有提供"},{"start":478.125,"end":500.803,"text":"所以在怠惰是內政部嘛但請市長回去轉告部長做承諾的人是他請他趕快協調把東西交出來要不然我們是希望啦7月16號以前要完成立法但如果這些基礎資料沒有掌握的話我們就匆匆完成立法的話恐怕不負責任嘛"},{"start":501.408,"end":502.19,"text":"因為某個程度上我們一點頭過了上百億喔"},{"start":510.999,"end":517.165,"text":"我希望法務部在政策上面要責成我們的高檢署甚至有必要的話跟我們的檢察總長"},{"start":534.742,"end":555.063,"text":"江湖的協調要徹底的掃蕩這種犯罪徹底掃蕩什麼犯罪我們第一線的軍人調查員他們需要用的防彈背心來我把它列舉一下這個是光過去這幾年曾經發生過的弊案"},{"start":557.44,"end":570.25,"text":"防彈的纖維部因為利潤非常的高啊利潤非常的高裡面有一堆不肖的業者已經形成了一個集團了從2017年2018年2019年2020年2021年甚至到現在2024年的今天"},{"start":577.779,"end":601.113,"text":"2024年的今天這個犯罪集團針對攸關我們軍人安全第一線執法人員安全防彈背心抗彈纖維部弊端一堆啊弊端一堆現在我這個喔是只有把它列出來已經成為公開資訊了年年設斃啊我們進一步的去看"},{"start":603.042,"end":615.587,"text":"從之前現在有被判刑確定的一位公衛公司的負責人叫做楊春海當然還有其他的共犯牽涉其中用其他的人頭公司微標的微標偽造"},{"start":618.174,"end":623.696,"text":"委員鍾佳濱等25人擬具:「民法第二百零五條條文修正草案．一）委員郭國文等18人擬具:「民法第二百零五條條文修正草案．"},{"start":640.382,"end":669.439,"text":"第一線有很多官兵弟兄他們的安全因此這件事情我希望法務部跟高檢署協調有必要甚至跟最高檢察署協調針對針對這樣一個有計劃有組織在嚴重影響我們國軍安全的弊案必須要徹查不要因為牽涉到的廠商後台很硬"},{"start":670.643,"end":671.404,"text":"我相信啊!"},{"start":691.601,"end":716.201,"text":"我相信我也希望是這個樣子但今天我是一個善意的提醒跟次長講完了以後法務部啊可以回去清查我剛剛所講的那些案子有一些是公共工程委員會抓到弊端的停權的不給錢的結果我們相關的不管是微標的還是偽造變造文件的"},{"start":717.526,"end":739.589,"text":"關於這宗案件現在拖延了很久我做了完整的表給法務部做參考今天是剛開始因為我一定給你們時間做準備那下一次部長來的時候我會深入的針對在整個犯罪集團的掃蕩上面是不是有認真的徹查跟偵辦來請教部長謝謝"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}