{"error":false,"id":["154502"],"data":{"IVOD_ID":154502,"IVOD_URL":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154502","日期":"2024-07-03","會議資料":{"會議代碼":"委員會-11-1-23-18","會議代碼:str":"第11屆第1會期交通委員會第18次全體委員會議","屆":11,"會期":1,"會次":18,"臨時會會次":null,"種類":"委員會","委員會代碼":[23],"委員會代碼:str":["交通委員會"],"標題":"第11屆第1會期交通委員會第18次全體委員會議"},"影片種類":"Clip","開始時間":"2024-07-03T11:37:38+08:00","結束時間":"2024-07-03T11:46:49+08:00","影片長度":"00:09:11","支援功能":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/5ad2054f9b7cf4bd877e90811c5ee7561363f5917c5295f5e8e3eb0bf88d021cb8e2350fbdd246935ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"魯明哲","委員發言時間":"11:37:38 - 11:46:49","會議時間":"2024-07-03T10:30:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期交通委員會第18次全體委員會議（事由：一、討論立法院交通委員會「鏡電視申設及後續爭議調閱專案小組」運作後續事宜。二、審查（一）委員陳俊宇等24人擬具「鐵路法第四十條條文修正草案」案。（二)委員廖先翔等18人擬具「鐵路法第五十七條條文修正草案」案。【第二案僅進行詢答】）","gazette":{"lineno":282,"blocks":[["魯委員明哲：（11時37分）謝謝主席，有請伍次長、鐵道局楊局長。"],["主席：請伍次長、鐵道局楊局長。"],["伍次長勝園：委員好。"],["魯委員明哲：今天正好是一位次長、一位局長，過去是鐵道局的局長、副局長，然後現在先後是……我們一路打拼，在很多桃園軌道工程，其實我看到你們兩位真的是比較務實，是專業、務實且比較少政治性地來解決問題。首先，對於過去很多的工作，尤其在伍局長任內，現在你是次長，在去年7月能夠準時幫我們的機捷再向前一哩路，通到A22站，我還是要感謝你。但今天最主要是要討論鐵路地下化在桃園段的情況，我們討論了非常多次，在伍局長任內，我們也溝通了非常多次，但有一個事情我非常好奇，在去年9月交接之前，我們大概每3個月會跟鐵道局調個文，尤其針對經費、時程的部分。截至9月在伍局長任內，感覺上經費多的距離也不大，當時還是維持1,048億這樣一個基調，然後完工日期，每次給我們的也大約是原本的完工日期，但奇怪了，9月份楊局長一接，3個月前、3月22日當時說要延3年，到底是延3年還是4年？沒關係，現在到底延3年還是4年？現在經費概算結果到底是增加多少？兩位要不要說一下？"],["伍次長勝園：這個我先說明一下，當時我在當局長的時候，就有碰到物調的問題，其實那時候大概就會增加400億左右，後來我離開，那時候楊局長接了以後，有所謂繼續南延的那一段，那一段大概1.2公里，大概也增加了不少錢，所以這樣整個加起來的話，不曉得現在……"],["魯委員明哲：就老實估算大概是多少！我覺得早講會比晚講好一點。"],["楊局長正君：跟委員報告，要七百七左右。"],["魯委員明哲：七百七十億？"],["楊局長正君：是。"],["魯委員明哲：好。","但第二個我比較好奇。其實照我們看，因為疫情、尤其原物料和人工上漲，這是真的沒有辦法。可是以我們看到的幾百億、甚至一千億的公共工程，一般來說，最後大概是漲30%到50%的比較多一點，像你們這種從1,048億漲到像你剛剛講的770億的話，最後的結果會是1,800億！哇！漲七成五啊！這個部分會讓我們覺得財務上是有點憂心啊！","第二個問題，我想直接請鐵道局楊局長來回答好不好？我上次總質詢中關心了三個議題啦！是可能會造成延誤的三大議題。第一，投影片上打勾這三個站現在還沒發包，因為沒錢發包，分別是內壢車站、桃醫車站跟鳳鳴車站。現在修正計畫報的進度如何？這三個還沒發包的車站預計什麼時候可以發包？"],["楊局長正君：跟委員報告，現在修正計畫正在積極進行當中，分局已經報到局裡面來，我們最近審查完就會報到交通部、往後提報。至於我們的管控進度，是希望在年底要把修正計畫完成核定，明年六月之前把剩下三個標完成工程發包。"],["魯委員明哲：好，就是在今年年底把修正計畫完成？程序還很多啦！我們在地方跑過這些，包括又要經過國發會再到行政院等等，這樣繞來繞去的，這部份我們希望速度加快。那桃園站的文資問題呢？有沒有進度？有沒有向前走啊？"],["楊局長正君：關於桃園站的文資議題，我們最近才會進場，也就是真正做工程方面的工作。我們已經陸續跟桃園捷運局那邊原來做文資處理的團隊及桃園捷運局保持密切的合作，在這個地方來協助。"],["魯委員明哲：就是繼續沿用原來溝通完成的團隊，溝通會好一點喔！"],["楊局長正君：是的。"],["魯委員明哲：好不好？有朝這個方向嘛！"],["楊局長正君：有、是。"],["魯委員明哲：第三個是平鎮呢？平鎮段也要等修正計畫嘛！是不是？"],["伍次長勝園：延伸的部分要等修正計畫。"],["魯委員明哲：平鎮延伸、南延嘛！"],["伍次長勝園：是。"],["楊局長正君：對，剛剛講到從六百多億變成七百多億，當中其實有一段是這個地方加了一百多億啦！"],["魯委員明哲：好。","我們看到每一個站的經費事實上都成長了非常多啦！你剛剛也承認啊！大概總經費會成長到比原本經費超過七成五以上喔！但是我比較擔心，其實我過去對桃園市政府，也就是當市議員期間，當時就有跟鄭市長說，像這種重大工程動輒幾百億，就算分擔完，我們也要出幾百億，那就要像買房子一樣，年輕人買房子不能今天買今天去，而是有了這個計畫要先存嘛！先存個十年，頭期款存到之後開始做會比較輕鬆。所以那時候他也說好，每一年自己撥個五億、十億，想說存個八年也有個四、五十億啦！可是我看到現在經費要從1,048億調到1,800億，可能喔！所以我們也在想，哇！鐵路地下化推那麼多年、講了這麼久，桃園市政府針對鐵路地下化這件事，到底自己存在自己戶頭多少錢，包括他已經存了多少錢、你們又已經提撥了多少錢？我想至少要兩成吧！不過，實際狀況上，截至昨天為止，原本1,048億中，地方要出262億，中央是786億；但是到112年，大概過去五、六年的時間，桃園市政府只付了14.19億，中央是53.47億，至於今年度、113年編了7億。所以桃園市政府面對這麼大的議題，地方上這七、八年也宣導無數，論功勞已經把八個勳章背走了，但是一看，哎喲！既然要出262億，那好歹要兩成吧！弄個50億，給大家「聞香」一下，結果只存了14億。這是發生什麼事啊！你現在看看投影片右邊的數據。其實我是憂心啦！現在要調成你剛剛講的1,800億，就算是我當時說的多700億好了，就是1,748億，地方一按照25%的比例計算，要出437億，但是看到下面，到今年為止，只提撥或付款21億，還欠多少？415億。如果你們在112年能夠完工，未來仍有九年時間要提撥，尤其是愈接近完工，可能一年要編個八十億、一百億。","那中央呢？你們在預算增加之後要出1,311億，而截至目前為止，經費的到位率也只有6.6%，還欠1,223億。像這種從南到北的軌道工程非常多、非常多，我建議你們中央、地方都要非常小心自己的財務計畫。以當時想像，你們每一年預算就這麼多，但只要能夠在還沒開工的時候，每一年先存一點、存一點、存一點，開工的時候已經有一定的錢了。結果一翻開帳本，才發現大家都是過一年算一年，到了卸任那一年就換別人了。這部分是不是要跟桃園市政府好好討論？這也是地方上覺得財劃法必須修的主要原因啦！那你們對於中央的財政到位有沒有信心啊？"],["伍次長勝園：中央的財務部分沒有問題啊！其實我們就114年這一年，針對桃地的部分大概已經編列、匡了159億，也就是將近160億。"],["魯委員明哲：所以匡了一百五十幾億嘛！"],["伍次長勝園：160億、159億。"],["魯委員明哲：那我可以跟你報告一下，地方政府今年是編7億，明年原本應該要匡個四、五十億，但大概只有10億啦！你們大概要討論一下，千萬不要因為財務問題再讓已經延宕的工程繼續延誤，好不好？謝謝。"],["伍次長勝園：是、好，謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝魯明哲委員的發言。","下一位請廖先翔委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":108,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-23-18","speakers":["陳雪生","林國成","李昆澤","傅崐萁","陳素月","廖先翔","林俊憲","何欣純","魯明哲","徐富癸","黃健豪","游顥","許智傑","邱若華","張啓楷","黃國昌","陳俊宇","楊瓊瓔"],"page_start":67,"meetingDate":["2024-07-03"],"gazette_id":"1137001","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1137001_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期交通委員會第18次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、討論立法院交通委員會「鏡電視申設及後續爭議調閱專案小組」運作後續事宜；二、審查\n( 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人擬具\n「鐵路法第五十七條條文修正草案」案","agenda_id":"1137001_00002"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":0.03096875,"end":1.2122187500000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":5.127218750000001,"end":5.75159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":6.17346875,"end":6.59534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":7.11846875,"end":8.14784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":9.852218750000002,"end":10.797218750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":11.05034375,"end":29.39346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":30.28784375,"end":43.602218750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":44.142218750000005,"end":45.96471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":46.48784375,"end":46.92659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":48.158468750000004,"end":58.992218750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":59.05971875,"end":68.34096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":68.69534375,"end":73.30221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":74.44971875,"end":76.39034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":76.86284375000001,"end":88.13534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":88.69221875000001,"end":92.13471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":92.53971875,"end":95.22284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":95.49284375,"end":96.37034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":96.47159375000001,"end":99.64409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":100.09971875000001,"end":105.55034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":106.15784375000001,"end":107.13659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":107.32221875,"end":109.09409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":110.27534375,"end":111.59159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":112.51971875000001,"end":139.38471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":138.82784375,"end":140.66721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":140.66721875000002,"end":141.20721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":141.88221875000002,"end":144.21096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":144.05909375000002,"end":146.48909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":147.01221875000002,"end":148.05846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":148.39596875,"end":148.78409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":148.86846875,"end":149.40846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":150.43784375,"end":162.08159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":162.77346875,"end":164.30909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":164.83221875,"end":168.59534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":168.61221875,"end":170.78909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":171.09284375000001,"end":176.83034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":178.09596875,"end":180.10409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":181.16721875000002,"end":185.08221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":185.58846875,"end":189.16596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":190.00971875000002,"end":194.88659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":195.30846875,"end":195.88221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":196.05096875,"end":200.18534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":200.91096875000002,"end":202.56471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":202.83471875,"end":203.91471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":204.25221875000003,"end":212.03159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":212.70659375000002,"end":232.65284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":233.42909375000002,"end":239.31846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":239.55471875,"end":242.69346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":243.16596875000002,"end":249.07221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":249.46034375000002,"end":250.33784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":250.99596875,"end":267.51659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":266.80784375,"end":274.24971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":267.76971875000004,"end":267.80346875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":271.22909375,"end":273.20346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":273.37221875,"end":274.11471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":274.68846875,"end":280.69596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":280.89846875,"end":284.49284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":282.31596875,"end":289.03221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":284.57721875000004,"end":285.13409375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":289.79159375,"end":292.66034375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":293.06534375,"end":297.50346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":298.46534375000005,"end":301.09784375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":301.77284375,"end":303.02159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":303.42659375,"end":304.59096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":305.48534375,"end":325.12784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":325.27971875000003,"end":326.83221875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":327.13596875,"end":330.19034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":330.62909375000004,"end":333.29534375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":333.51471875000004,"end":338.18909375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":338.57721875000004,"end":339.96096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":340.50096875,"end":344.75346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":345.31034375,"end":3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這個部分這個部分讓我們覺得財務上是有點憂心那第二個問題我想直接鐵道局楊局長你來回答好不好"},{"start":190.083,"end":209.502,"text":"我上次總質詢關心這個三個議題啦,可能會造成延誤的三大議題。第一個,因為現在三個,上面打勾的三個站還沒發包,因為沒錢發包。內地車站、桃一車站跟鳳鳴車站,現在大概修正計畫報的進度如何?預計這三個還沒發包的車站,什麼時候預計可以發包?"},{"start":213.986,"end":232.342,"text":"現在修正計劃正在積極進行當中分局已經報到局裡面來我們最近會審查完就會報到交通部往後面去提報那我們的管控進度是希望在年底要把修正計劃完成核定明年六月之前把剩下的三個標來做完成的工程發保"},{"start":233.439,"end":250.691,"text":"議員議員議員議員議員"},{"start":251.304,"end":279.773,"text":"桃園站的文資議題呢因為我們最近才會進場就是真正去做工程方面的工作那我們已經陸續跟原來就是桃園捷運局那邊文資處理的團隊跟桃園捷運局保持密切的合作在這個地方來就是原來有溝通完成的團隊繼續來沿用他們溝通會好一點喔是的好不好有朝這個方向嗎是有那第三個是這個我們憑證呢憑證段這個也是要等修正計畫嗎"},{"start":281.033,"end":282.014,"text":"第三案僅進行詢答"},{"start":305.523,"end":306.243,"text":"議員廖先翔等18人擬具"},{"start":334.63,"end":362.751,"text":"五億、十億、想要存個八年有個四、五十億可是我看到現在經費從一零四八要調到一千八百億可能喔那我們在想哇,鐵路地下化要退這麼多年講了這麼久桃園市政府針對於鐵路地下化這件事到底自己存在自己的戶頭多少錢到底要他存多少錢你們已經提供了多少錢我在想至少要兩成吧"},{"start":366.29,"end":376.074,"text":"實際的狀況,截至昨天為止,原本1048億,地方要出262億,中央786億。過去到112年,大概5、6年的時間,臺灣市政府只有付了14.19億,中央無3.47億。今年度113年,"},{"start":393.237,"end":395.118,"text":"第三案僅進行詢答一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．"},{"start":423.712,"end":424.132,"text":"二、審查（一）委員陳俊宇等24人擬具"},{"start":444.241,"end":471.613,"text":"議員議員議員議員議員議員議員議員"},{"start":471.693,"end":497.272,"text":"一、二、二、三、一那像這種從南到北的軌道工程非常多非常多我建議你們要非常自己中央地方都要非常小心自己的財務計劃因為可以當時想像的說每一年你們的預算就這麼多能夠在還沒開工的時候每一年先存一點存一點存一點開工的時候已經有一定有錢了結果一翻開帳本"},{"start":498.695,"end":515.333,"text":"議員議員議員議員議員議員"},{"start":516.648,"end":526.099,"text":"中央的這個財務部分沒有問題啊,我們114年,其實這一年我們逃避的部分大概已經編列框了159億,就是將近160億。所以,框了150幾億嘛?160億。那我可以跟你報告一下齁,"},{"start":532.466,"end":552.022,"text":"議員議員議員議員"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}