{"error":false,"id":["154528"],"data":{"IVOD_ID":154528,"IVOD_URL":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154528","日期":"2024-07-03","會議資料":{"會議代碼":"委員會-11-1-20-20","會議代碼:str":"第11屆第1會期財政委員會第20次全體委員會議","屆":11,"會期":1,"會次":20,"臨時會會次":null,"種類":"委員會","委員會代碼":[20],"委員會代碼:str":["財政委員會"],"標題":"第11屆第1會期財政委員會第20次全體委員會議"},"影片種類":"Clip","開始時間":"2024-07-03T13:00:02+08:00","結束時間":"2024-07-03T13:09:24+08:00","影片長度":"00:09:22","支援功能":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/5ad2054f9b7cf4bd33040dc279474525cb3f5941fe1686257e5fc91d506e06f606a9cdfe7fa3d36a5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"鍾佳濱","委員發言時間":"13:00:02 - 13:09:24","會議時間":"2024-07-03T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期財政委員會第20次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請金融監督管理委員會彭主任委員金隆、財政部莊部長翠雲就「如何促進保險業資金擴大參與公共建設，加速建設之推動。」進行專題報告，並備質詢；另邀請中央銀行、國家發展委員會、經濟部、交通部列席備詢。\n二、繼續審查本院委員羅明才等17人擬具「保險法第一百四十六條之四條文修正草案」案。\n【7月3日及4日二天一次會】）","gazette":{"lineno":1067,"blocks":[["鍾委員佳濱：（13時）主席、在場委員先進、列席的政府機關首長及官員、會場工作夥伴、媒體記者女士先生。有請金管會彭主委、法律處徐處長以及銀行局莊局長。"],["主席：請彭主委、徐處長、莊局長。"],["彭主任委員金隆：委員好。"],["鍾委員佳濱：主委好。在進入今天正題之前，我有一個從司法及法制委員會帶來的問題，你知道洗防法在司法及法制委員會已經審查完竣，其中有一個部分是關於融資性租賃跟虛擬資產部分，在洗防法當中是適用金融機構的規定，對不對？"],["彭主任委員金隆：是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：那是屬於金管會管的嘛！"],["彭主任委員金隆：是，現在我們把它納入了。"],["鍾委員佳濱：OK，好。請問一下主委有沒有用過分期付款？有用過？"],["彭主任委員金隆：沒有。"],["鍾委員佳濱：沒有？你有沒有用過融資租賃？"],["彭主任委員金隆：沒有。"],["鍾委員佳濱：沒有，但是你知道什麼是分期付款，我很快的介紹給大家。有個消費者他想買車，但錢不夠，車商說：你信用很好，我幫你辦銀行的貸款。因此車商拿了足額的車款之後，消費者拿到了車，然後分期把銀行的債務就還清了，這是一種；但另外一種融資性租賃是怎樣？是需要的人他沒有足夠的錢買車，他也沒辦法直接跟銀行貸，所以跑出一個融資性租賃的業者，他用他來跟銀行取得資金之後交付車款，他取得車款之後把車子再出租給承租人，承租人每個月交給他的租金遠大於他要付的本息，所以他等於是拿出租人的租金去支付這個本息，期滿之後承租人可以把這個車子買過去，是不是這樣子？"],["彭主任委員金隆：嗯。"],["鍾委員佳濱：融資性租賃是這樣。好，那你知道目前的融資性租賃的詐騙有一種叫做機車可以借30萬嗎？你聽過1輛機車可以借30萬的嗎？"],["彭主任委員金隆：有在媒體上看到這樣的報導。"],["鍾委員佳濱：你知道怎麼操作嗎？"],["彭主任委員金隆：請委員說明一下，謝謝。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，這個我花了很多的時間跟典當業者及業者請教，原則上受害者他其實要一筆錢周轉，可能要30萬，銀行不會給，因為他信用不佳，但是他看報紙、看網路有人說有機車可以借30萬，怎麼借呢？你把你的機車、你的使用權賣給了融資公司，融資公司給你相當30萬的錢跟你買了使用權，但是實際上七扣八扣手續費之後，你大概只能拿到七成21萬，然後他把你名下的車回租給你，因為他有使用權，你每個月要付租金給他，然後他拿你付的租金來支付給銀行。咦，怎麼要給銀行？因為在你辦這個融資租賃租你名下的機車的時候，他把你的證件用他的名義設法跟銀行代受害人申請信用貸款。很奇怪！受害人自己去辦辦不出來，但融資公司拿他的證件就辦了一個以他名義的信用貸款，辦了30萬、扣了9萬，21萬交給他，然後他每個月付的租金由融資公司替他付他信貸的錢，一旦他付不起租金，車子還是他的沒有關係，反正是破機車，但是業者就把他放管、不管了，然後銀行就來跟誰追債？跟受害者追債！有沒有聽過這樣的操作手法？第一次聽到？"],["彭主任委員金隆：第一次聽到這麼完整的。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，再跟你講一個，越貸越多錢！請往下看，這是說「汽車超額貸、永遠還不完、還越欠越多」。基本上我一個年輕人如果要買新車100萬，銀行大概不會貸給我，而我居然可以透過融資公司用100萬的車幫我貸到120萬，我還會拿到一筆現金，我什麼錢都沒有就可以拿到1輛新車，還有20萬扣掉手續費後他給我12萬的現金，然後我前六期要按時還，我可能還了30萬，我的債務還了本金20萬，這時候我的手頭很緊了，他說：你還有其他債務嗎？沒關係，我幫你介紹第二胎。你沒錢花用或者還不出來時，我再找B公司，B公司把這輛車過給他做二胎，然後他幫你貸了150萬，其中100萬先把原來的餘額100萬的債務還掉，你就可以拿到30萬的七成35萬，結果一貸又過一貸，越欠越多錢！他不是沒有還錢喔，等到他一旦還不起，事情就爆發了！主委知道這個融資性租賃的問題了吧？","我們來看一下融資性租賃，現在在洗防法裡面歸你們管嘛，你們要不要要求他保持交易紀錄？那要會同法務部做什麼事情呢？做一件事情，往下看，可不可以要求他揭露風險時應該要錄音錄影？因為往往在這樣的詐騙過程當中，很大的問題是受害者不曉得他在辦什麼手續，沒有看到合約、沒有錄音錄影為他本意的表達，所以未來金管會可不可以要求這些融資性租賃業者，用洗防法的授權請他要有錄音錄影，可以要求嗎？"],["彭主任委員金隆：這一點我們也注意到國際上對這種類似行業的規範都是從保護消費者的角度，這是屬於消費者保護端的內容，因為在洗防法裡面主要針對洗錢……"],["鍾委員佳濱：沒有錯，照說這些是對融資性業務的日常監理。"],["彭主任委員金隆：對。"],["鍾委員佳濱：但是因為你們只承認它在金融機構是洗防部分歸你們管，平常它是屬於經濟部管的公司，對不對？他們不是主管機關嘛！"],["彭主任委員金隆：目前現況是如此。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，那麼現況你們就要加強。第二個，我們來看洗防法裡面的授權，中央目的事業主管機關就是指你們，你們是洗防法的融資性租賃的中央目的事業主管機關，指定什麼項目？指定要求你要有定型化契約。再往下看，這些內容會出狀況都是因為契約的內容五花八門、話術技巧，如果真的有人需要卻沒有錢，需要去拿一筆錢，拿機車去或者是他需要借錢來買車，那麼定型化契約內容要求業者把這些他所簽署的內容具體的表達出來，日後的爭議才有辦法處理。主委願意往這個方向去責成你們銀行局做嗎？"],["彭主任委員金隆：我想任何有助於市場維持的我們都願意研究，剛剛講定型化契約應該是消費者保護法裡面有一些，如果納入會有強制的規定，這我們……"],["鍾委員佳濱：目前融資性租賃它沒有給你定型化契約、沒有一定的格式，所以每個業務員跟你招攬的時候都是靠他一張嘴，拿出很多複雜的文件要你簽，簽完了你發現自己被辦了信貸還不曉得。"],["彭主任委員金隆：報告委員，這部分我們現在既然是洗防的主政單位，我想相關部分我們來研究，責無旁貸。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，謝謝，因為主席請我們吃了雞排，我很快的把今天的主題說一下，很快，30秒就好了。這個是今天大家談的，就是有將近七成海外投資，壽險公司為什麼到海外去？是因為國內投資標的不足？是這樣嘛？到海外是不是都是買海外的債券？大概是這樣子吧？我這個問題主委應該回答過很多次了，所以我就往下看。目前如果把投資總額從45%降到25%，那表示什麼？表示有6.4兆的資金要回流臺灣，6.4兆很大，我們目前的股市能不能消化得了？往下看，進來之後會造成什麼影響？請主委很快回答，6.4兆回來之後對臺灣會有什麼影響？"],["彭主任委員金隆：我想是籌碼，假設從一個簡單的供需來看，確實會……"],["主席：9兆。"],["鍾委員佳濱：主席說是9兆，不是6.4兆，9兆就更多了！"],["彭主任委員金隆：是的。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，往下看，會有三個影響，我直接說結論，第一，保戶及股東權益。壽險公司將國外獲利穩定的投資拿回來國內，它不投入高風險的股市就是投入債市，獲利不足，這個時候它的股票就會受到影響，然後它的獲利如果不穩定，保戶的權益也會受到影響。"],["彭主任委員金隆：對。"],["鍾委員佳濱：第二，房市會上漲。那麼多資金回來，投資標的除了股、債之外就是房地產，房地產價格就會再上漲，影響到其他的人民生活。","再往下看，最後大量的資金回來會影響到匯率，如果它把美金拋掉回來買新臺幣持有，臺灣的匯率會上升，本來匯率是央行在主控，如果相當於9兆新臺幣、美金換成新臺幣，您覺得我們的匯率會提高多少？"],["彭主任委員金隆：剛剛有很多委員也關切過這個問題，這個很難預估，不過一定會產生影響。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好、很好，所以結論還是一句話，請金管會持續跟其他機關協調，釋出可供民間投資、報酬合理的公共建設案源。尤其是REITs，一定要加強，讓REITs可以協助，讓民間的投資可以進入到公建的部分，好不好？"],["彭主任委員金隆：好。"],["鍾委員佳濱：謝謝主委。"],["彭主任委員金隆：謝謝委員。"],["主席：接著請楊瓊瓔委員，楊瓊瓔、楊瓊瓔，楊委員不在。","請鄭正鈐委員，鄭正鈐、鄭正鈐，鄭委員不在。","請陳亭妃，陳亭妃、陳亭妃，陳委員不在。","請何欣純，何欣純、何欣純，何委員不在。","請吳春城委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":68,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-20-20","speakers":["羅明才","林德福","吳秉叡","賴士葆","郭國文","李坤城","賴惠員","顏寬恒","王鴻薇","李彥秀","黃珊珊","王世堅","陳玉珍","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","黃國昌","林楚茵","鍾佳濱","吳春城","楊瓊瓔"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-07-03"],"gazette_id":"1136901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1136901_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期財政委員會第20次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請金融監督管理委員會彭主任委員金隆、財政部莊部長翠雲就「如何促進保險業資金擴大\n參與公共建設，加速建設之推動。」進行專題報告，並備質詢；另邀請中央銀行、國家發展委員\n會、經濟部、交通部列席備詢；二、繼續審查本院委員羅明才等17人擬具「保險法第一百四十六\n條之四條文修正草案」案","agenda_id":"1136901_00001"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":3.84471875,"end":9.869093750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10.375343750000003,"end":16.53471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":13.007843750000003,"end":13.56471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":16.85534375,"end":18.981593750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":19.11659375,"end":19.28534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":19.28534375,"end":19.70721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":20.43284375,"end":20.449718750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":20.449718750000002,"end":29.140343750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":20.56784375,"end":21.17534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":21.17534375,"end":21.192218750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start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強制的規定目前融資信註他沒有給你定型化契約沒有一定的格式所以每個業務員他跟你招攬的時候他都是靠他一張嘴拿出很多複雜的文件讓你簽簽完了你發現自己被辦的信單你還不曉得"},{"start":415.914,"end":441.523,"text":"這部分我想我們既然現在是洗房的這個主政單位那我想這部分相關我們來研究責無旁貸好謝謝因為主委主席請我們吃了雞排很快的把今天的主題說了一下很快的30秒就好了來往下這個是今天大家談的就是有將近七成海外投資往下看為什麼如果說為什麼到海外去是因為國內投資標的不足是這樣嗎"},{"start":442.742,"end":465.898,"text":"那到海外是不是都是用買海外的債券?大概是這樣子吧?我這個問題主委應該回答過很多次了,所以我就往下看了。好,那所以目前如果把投資總額從25%降到25%那表示什麼?表示有6.4兆的資金要回流台灣。6.4兆很大,我們目前的股市能不能消耗得了?往下看。"},{"start":467.079,"end":483.259,"text":"進來之後會產生什麼影響?主委很快的回答6.4兆回來之後臺灣會有什麼影響?我想是籌碼假設從一個簡單的供需來看確實會9兆我們主席說是9兆不是6.4兆那9兆就更多了是的好 那往下看有三個影響我直接說結論第一"},{"start":484.921,"end":498.991,"text":"保護跟股東權益授權公司將國外獲利穩定的投資拿回來國內他不投入高風險的股市就投入再次獲利不足這個時候他的股票就會受到影響然後他的獲利如果不穩定保護的權益會受到影響第二"},{"start":500.382,"end":527.441,"text":"黃石會上漲那麼多資金回來投資標的除了股債之外就是房地產房地產就會價格再上漲影響到其他的人民生活再往下看最後大量的資金回來會影響到匯率那匯率呢如果新台幣他把美金拋掉回來買新台幣持有台灣的匯率會上升本來匯率是央行在主控那如果這樣子久照的外國的相當於久照新台幣的美金換成新台幣您覺得我們的匯率會提高多少"},{"start":529.119,"end":550.774,"text":"這剛剛有很多委員也關注過這個問題啊這個很難預估,不過一定會產生影響好,很好,所以結論還是一句話,請儘管持續跟其他機關協調釋出可供民間投資報酬合理的公共建設案源尤其是REIT一定要加強的讓REIT可以來協助參與民間的公共民間的投資可以進入到公建的部分好不好好,謝謝,謝謝委員"},{"start":554.912,"end":555.052,"text":"三問題再來"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}