{"error":false,"id":["154551"],"data":{"IVOD_ID":154551,"IVOD_URL":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154551","日期":"2024-07-05","會議資料":{"會議代碼":"院會-11-1-21","會議代碼:str":"第11屆第1會期第21次會議","屆":11,"會期":1,"會次":21,"臨時會會次":null,"種類":"院會","標題":"第11屆第1會期第21次會議"},"影片種類":"Clip","開始時間":"2024-07-05T18:07:50+08:00","結束時間":"2024-07-05T18:38:43+08:00","影片長度":"00:30:53","支援功能":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/4edc3fae9cb29e9738081b7031309b40412a25d0aa7d1a4947c19e37f8cb803828bce2618ac0fdaa5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"魯明哲","委員發言時間":"18:07:50 - 18:38:43","會議時間":"2024-07-05T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"第11屆第1會期第21次會議（事由：一、對行政院院長報告施政方針繼續質詢。\n二、7月5日上午9時至10時為國是論壇時間。\n三、7月9日下午1時50分至2時30分為處理臨時提案時間。）","gazette":{"lineno":37,"blocks":[["魯委員明哲：（18時8分）謝謝副院長，有請我們卓院長。"],["主席：請卓院長備詢。"],["魯委員明哲：交通部李部長。"],["主席：交通部李部長備詢。"],["魯委員明哲：院長，第一次在總質詢相會。"],["卓院長榮泰：謝謝，魯委員，謝謝你，委員好。"],["魯委員明哲：我特別看到您的經歷，其實讓我滿佩服的……"],["卓院長榮泰：感恩、感恩。"],["魯委員明哲：我們都知道網球有大滿貫，我特別有注意到你在民進黨府院黨的秘書長這些要職上面，你可以講說是府院黨大滿貫秘書長……"],["卓院長榮泰：都是學習的機會。"],["魯委員明哲：因為我覺得這是一個滿好的歷練，但是我是真的希望你不是一黨的大師兄，今天能夠把你這些能夠做秘書長、善於協調、溝通、解決問題的能力，如果帶到國政、帶到重大建設的問題解決的話，我也相信你把這經歷帶過來，你可以做一個很好的行政院院長，你有沒有信心？"],["卓院長榮泰：我願意非常地努力。"],["魯委員明哲：願意？好，首先第一個問題。","（播放影片）"],["魯委員明哲：我特別注意你6月8號在連假的第一天來到了高速公路行控中心嘛！特別來關心交通的問題，特別謝謝你。因為你談的這段話，正好是我們整個桃園鄉親，甚至是桃竹苗鄉親在交通上的痛，你那一天把它講出來了，我也特別注意到就在這兩個月，4月15號前院長陳建仁也去視察過去所謂五楊高架南延苗栗的工程，大家現在是講楊頭高速公路國1的拓寬工程，都沒關係、都一樣的東西。但我要特別講，因為實在是天天堵，應該講那一段是天天堵，實在是刻不容緩。這個部分我想院長、部長，結果你們回來討論有沒有什麼樣的一個方向？可不可能縮短？因為我們在4月15號聽到當時交通部的報告，預計是115年開工、121年完工，我們要去縮短，到底有沒有一個目標、方向以及要怎麼努力？說一下，好嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：謝謝委員。那天是看到背後monitor上面的那一段路一直有車輛源源不斷塞住，也跟我們每個人經過那一段的感覺是一樣的，所以當場是希望如果我們能夠有更進一步的規劃，期程上能夠早一天做完這個工程的話，對這個路段的改善絕對有幫忙，回來之後交通部有再進行相關的評估。"],["魯委員明哲：部長，我直接說一個，真的能夠縮短一下，好不好？我看很多工程招標一、兩年了，這個跟院長好好溝通一下，不要每個工程一定標個一、兩年之後把我們再加一點，這樣的工程一再延誤，我覺得沒有意義嘛！到時候搞不好要加的錢更多，好不好？部長，你的看法如何？"],["李部長孟諺：是，我想怎麼樣核實去計算工料、核實編列預算，讓它可以順利的招標，這個我們來努力，它是今年4月就開始啟動設計，預計114年底辦理招標的階段，我們會核實編列這個預算。但是期程上整個要通車有一個最困難的段，就是在湖口，它是要做隧道段，那邊有一個隧道，因為要避開相關的那個……"],["魯委員明哲：所以能節省的時間如果不節省的話，未來還有很多意外的狀況，我當天是有聽到我們院長這樣子說，我們希望能夠順著把大家跨部會召集起來，大家拼了，你省3個月、我省5個月，大家省起來，遇到一些狀況的時候才好處理。我今天要談的是這個高架，其實說實在話，經過新竹到苗栗非常非常重要，也非常需要，這個需求剛剛大家都理解了，可是南來北往之後我們發覺在高架上面，因為過去五楊高架的主要功能是避開林口跟桃園的堵車，結果都不給你上架，那個功能就是這樣的，對不對？當然對。但是我們現在在桃竹苗的這一段拓寬，因為桃竹苗本身就是一個生活圈，桃竹苗很多的功能要整合，在行政院的計劃有很多要整合，有一條我覺得我們桃園南區現在最重要的高架出口交流道是什麼，部長知道嗎？從高架可以直接下來，不用從新屋轉到國1平面再出去，跟著原有的車流在那邊擠，你知道是哪個交流道嗎？"],["李部長孟諺：你說從五楊高架……"],["魯委員明哲：從五楊高架。"],["李部長孟諺：可以直接銜接……"],["魯委員明哲：對，未來連到苗栗也可以下來的是哪一個？你知不知道？那我來說，好不好？就是中豐交流道。我在2020年3月份開始質詢，中豐交流道那時候南向、北向都還沒有做，所以我要特別謝謝，事實上交通部也努力了、也發包了，此次針對北向，就是北邊的車、臺北的車要從中壢下，OK！我們中壢的車要從平面直接上到高架也OK，這個部分算是非常非常方便。但是當時我們本來這個規劃就是全向，南邊的連結、北邊的連結都需要，所以這部分我要先請教一下這個交流道，我看我不要再問了，目前預計是115年的年初，這樣很快喔！就是後年年初至少北邊的連結，經由你們的幫忙，在地方從高架可以直接下來的部分會有成果，那南向的部分要怎麼辦？我想跟院長再說一下，因為這是我四年半之前的板子，現在不再拿來了，我是帶著整個桃園南區，包括里長，包括議長，真的很希望中豐交流道能夠全面來做，但是你們看右邊的公文，右邊的公文寫的是行政院蘇院長的公文，它說第二期要分期，因為經費的關係，因為往苗栗的高架要擴大一點，免得一上去就堵車，所以併由現在楊頭國一拓寬工程一併辦理，我想這個部分請教部長好不好？這個部分直接給你看一下，你們給我的回答，你可以照著唸，就是下面北向工程嘛！那南向工程，你們的說法是今年會完成可行性評估、綜合規劃，然後明年會用地取得、工程設計，115年施工，有沒有辦法做到？"],["李部長孟諺：這個部分……"],["魯委員明哲：如果115年施工，正好是楊頭拓寬工程也是準備開工嘛，其實就有搭上，那這個部分可不可以……"],["李部長孟諺：這個原本的構想就是要跟楊頭一起做，就是你剛剛提南向的部分，115年要動工，就是跟著楊頭一起執行。"],["魯委員明哲：對，我知道啊！現在因為楊頭拓寬工程要動，你們不能忘了這一條南向的，好不好？"],["李部長孟諺：是，會一起做。"],["魯委員明哲：再來，我特別要在這裡也拜託院長，因為事實上你們去年提了一個桃竹苗大矽谷推動方案，正好這個方案是著眼於桃竹苗，所以在這個方案裡面，頭就是桃園，然後剛好交通部提了這個方案，那在大矽谷方案交通的策略是什麼？其中一個最重要的就是楊頭拓寬，在這拓寬段要串聯桃竹苗，那個頭當然就是中豐北路交流道，要讓南邊的貨物能夠從這邊下來，不能夠全部都擠到機場交流道那邊進去，所以這個部分我就提到這裡，請院長跟部長回去瞭解在經費時程上，按照之前公文的承諾能夠多幫忙，好不好？"],["卓院長榮泰：好，謝謝委員提醒，剛剛有看到蘇前院長的公文，我回去我們再研究一下公文的內容，照公文的方式跟精神繼續看能不能做更有效率的運用。"],["魯委員明哲：好，因為現在一邊已經做了，南下到最後竹苗的貨要進來，不管去青埔的會展中心，現在也蓋好了，或者到桃園南區的科技工業城，或者馬上緊接到航空城物流中心，這整整都是大矽谷計畫，我覺得這個部分大投資都有了，這個交流道一定要儘快做，在這裡拜託。","另外請問一下院長，民航局會不會嚇一跳？機場捷運你有沒有坐過？"],["卓院長榮泰：我沒有坐過機場捷運。"],["魯委員明哲：你沒有坐過機場捷運？你都坐轎車？"],["卓院長榮泰：因為很少出國。"],["魯委員明哲：很少出國，那這比較悲情一點。","部長，你有沒有坐過機場捷運到機場？"],["李部長孟諺：應該七、八次以上。"],["魯委員明哲：有沒有坐到機場過？"],["李部長孟諺：有啊！"],["魯委員明哲：事實上，機場捷運在疫後之後復甦的非常非常快，這個部分在好幾次質詢，行政院也知道，只是正好現在團隊因為整個換了，就簡單再拿出來說一下，我要特別拜託，因為剛開始的運能設計本來是每個小時要載四千七百多人，但是因為實際上不可能擠得跟沙丁魚一樣，而且班距後面因為驗收的問題，它沒有辦法跑那麼密集，所以現在實際的運能大概只有三千五百人左右。各位包含院長、部長來看，今年113年它每小時的運量已經到了4,793人，已經是實際運能大概將近多出30%左右。如果再往上走，未來就碰到T3航廈落成，未來不管是國際旅客來或出國怎麼樣，我想這是國門最重要的交通工具，這不是地方的捷運，這個部分我覺得看到了一個未來的重大需求，我不知道院長有沒有被告知了，從3月份當時交通委員會跟前部長，當然鐵道局局長是一樣的，我們特別有到地方去做溝通，地方事實上希望面臨這種運量大幅提升，根本一倍的車都不夠，那怎麼辦？一定要買新的車，沒辦法，所以他們原本要的量可能是超過20列，後面經過我們中央、地方初步的協調，我想包括行政院，當時鄭副院長也有特別提出來，大概目前朝向10列，其中直達車、普通車總共10列，這個部分有沒有交接？院長，因為到時候錢都要跟你要，因為你知道嗎？我們事實上已經質詢了一、兩年，我就怕沒有交接，但是沒有關係，不一定要在這裡講，我們希望把這個問題提出來。部長，那你說一下好不好？你知道這個情況吧？"],["李部長孟諺：是，我大致上瞭解，當時有過相關的協議，就是資產移轉的部分跟購車的補助，希望兩個能夠是一起討論跟決定。"],["魯委員明哲：這個部分資產移轉跟購車，事實上從鄭文燦市長的時代就很擔心，他說就購車也要講清楚，現在你們說目前購車有提出一個方案，當然我認為還沒有公文還沒具體化，但我認為這個訊息要交接，不能讓我們，包括你們鐵道局、交通部重新開始，譬如20列車談到了10列，幾列直達車、幾列普通車已經有個方向了，這個不要再談，要拜託你們來幫忙，我想……"],["李部長孟諺：也跟委員報告……"],["魯委員明哲：你說。"],["李部長孟諺：機捷自從去年我們開始推TPASS之後，機捷的運量增加了大概80%，所以TPASS對機捷運能的提升其實有很大的幫助，也讓它可以轉虧為盈。"],["魯委員明哲：好，我知道你講這個就是記功一次嘛！好不好？記功一次，但是都一樣……"],["李部長孟諺：就是大家一起合作。"],["魯委員明哲：人很多啦！人超多的，不管是直達車、普通車，這是真的啦！"],["卓院長榮泰：好，謝謝委員，我除了去年有出國的時間之外，比較少，那機捷的問題，我想我可以再去深入的瞭解，再跟委員做報告。"],["魯委員明哲：好，事實上機捷因為當時說所謂的運量真的不是這樣啦！因為他們忘了有人提了行李，還提兩顆的，這種實在是不夠，也希望有談的方案能夠持續的談下去，但現在又遇到一個問題……"],["李部長孟諺：確實非常重要，因為它是國家的重要門面。"],["魯委員明哲：國家的門面喔！不是說桃園而已，真的是國家的門面。我要拜託兩位一個非常重要的事，我覺得大家站在這裡就是解決問題，如果所有問題都是這種輕鬆如意的，也不需要大師兄或者我們前行政院秘書長，你們兩位都是秘書長級，正好很多跨部會協調，你知道嗎？其實我們機場捷運的，尤其號誌系統，機電號誌系統可歌可泣啊！有很悲慘的一個歷史過程，我想我要講這個的原因不是講故事，而是告訴你最後發生了什麼事。","第一個，在過去大家都知道丸紅，我們早就已經蓋好，土木標都已經完成了，站都做好了，車一直不通。而且當時的政府，不管中央、地方，延了6次，宣布明年要通車就絕對沒通，延了6次，造成很多的民怨，那到底是誰惹的禍？原來都是機電號誌系統惹的禍，到底發生了什麼問題呢？因為當時丸紅商社覺得它自己能力夠，就標了這樣的機電系統，它本來應該自己做，結果它講說：「唉唷！其實我也不會做。」它就轉給了英維思公司，英國的英維思公司會做，就請它來。私下合約就做嘛！結果做到最後糟糕了，各做完之後，要有人系統整合，產生了非常大的問題，系統整合一直出問題，造成很多很多的缺點一直沒有辦法改善。","院長，你應該有聽說過這件事，因為你做過秘書長，你肯定有聽過這件事，因為這個事扯了真的非常久，即使有些缺點，106年3月2號終於就不管了，就上了、就啟動了，開始載客了，到現在為止，到底有沒有合格驗收？這個問部長好不好？部長，到底我們機捷有沒有合格驗收完成？"],["李部長孟諺：我知道當時丸紅是用價格標來承攬機場捷運的工程，所以後來工程會有一個明令，價格標確實會造成沒有辦法找到優質的廠商，其施工品質也堪慮，所以後來工程會明令要求所有的工程在一定金額以上一定要用評選的方式。"],["魯委員明哲：其實我的問題比較簡單啦，到底有沒有合格驗收？沒有！後面是減價驗收，缺失就沒辦法，你們又不能把車還給他們，這東西也不能拆了還給他們，後面是減價，當然有把它的一些價金沒入……"],["李部長孟諺：不過依照採購法，減價驗收也是合法驗收的一種方式。"],["魯委員明哲：好，合法減價驗收，我更正一下。那為什麼呢？到底差在哪裡？因為大家都知道車殼是骨骼嘛，但是真正什麼時候跑、什麼時候停，安全系統跟營運系統全部都是靠這個機電號誌系統，它是靈魂，這個靈魂弄不好，所以他們當時承諾的不管是行車速度、平均速率跟車距幾分鐘可以發一班都做不到。好吧！丸紅商社在我們車上裝的系統叫做DTG-R，就是來自英國的英維斯系統，那是舊的號誌系統，現在發生什麼事了？還沒產完啊！現在做到剩兩站就到中壢火車站了，你知道嗎？我在現場監督，外環道再兩站、再2.06公里就到中壢火車站，這不是中壢人在坐，南來北往的火車會直接串接到青埔或者要坐飛機都有另外一個管道，我覺得很不錯，所以發包啊！這兩站一樣，土木標早就做好了，最後機電標真是很坎坷啊！驗收延這麼久，機電標從103年的9月發包到108年的7月、8月、9月整整5年的時間才發包出去，又是誰的惹的禍，你知道嗎？又是號誌系統惹的禍，都是同樣一個，又是它惹的禍，為什麼？發生了什麼事呢？5年招標了15次，發生了什麼事呢？前面從臺北火車站到中壢的車外系統都是丸紅商社、英維斯的DTG-R車機跟外圍系統，所以招標怎麼辦呢？只好再找他們買，為了要符合這個部分，所以我們的車載系統就是這個DTG-R，車都不要變、一毛都不要花，只要在前面的軌道裝上相同的系統，就可以直接推進到中壢火車站，甚至臺北到中壢可以開直達車了，很簡單啦！結果標了12次都沒人來。因為2013年英維斯公司已經被併購了，2014年他們的政策改變了，所以標了12次沒人來啊！這個系統已經沒有人要做了，最後怎麼解決？到第5年的時候，當時的鐵道局副局長應該很清楚，他們沒有辦法，只好把規格開放，任何的訊號廠商都可以來，因為他們問了全世界知名的訊號廠商公司，在臺灣沒有一個可以做這種舊的，所以任何人都可以來，那怎麼辦呢？第二個系統出來了，流標了15次，弄了一個新的系統，因為英文字太饒舌了，西門子（LGMT），兩家不同血緣、不同系統、不同東西、不同運作方式，這兩個東西我簡稱新跟舊，但你跟你們講，院長比較少坐，部長有坐做過8次，但你可能沒有坐到中壢，中壢現在不錯，坐到A 21的時候還要手動切換一下，跟手排車一樣「喀嚓」換成新的系統才能夠向前行，為什麼呢？因為最後兩站的車外系統是西門子系統，這應該是全世界唯一有兩個車載系統的列車，這就是現在的情況。","現在到底我要講什麼問題，你們應該也想到了，那未來呢？現在要買車了，桃園市政府、鐵道局、大眾捷運公司滿開心的，然後因為要跟鐵道局、交通部呈報細部計畫，實際要有報價、要規範，於是當然要去詢價，但詢價詢到現在的結果是什麼？殼沒問題，好幾家都會做殼給你，但是靈魂──它的號誌系統怎麼辦呢？沒有人要啊。","院長、部長，你們看一下，他們在3月多到4月，甚至發到我們外交部英國的駐外辦事處，結果在4月的時候，德國西門子回函了，回函時說什麼？很簡單，你們自己看一下黃色的部分，它說英維斯號誌系統（DTG-R），由於第三方供貨商已經停產，增購列車搭載這個系統的解決方案對他們來說不可行，就算現在中古的湊給你，未來要維修20年，我也幹不下去。所以這是目前為止，桃園他們要買車時遇到的一個問題，這個問題比剛剛那個中壢的兩站更嚴重喔，因為裝不到舊的系統，從臺北火車站開到我們中壢，這個舊的系統都沒人跑，它這個車也沒有辦法買，所以這個根本的問題就完全沒有辦法解決。我想這個問部長，因為這個問題細一點，部長，你有沒有聽說過這個問題？講真的。"],["李部長孟諺：這這個問題我初步有瞭解，但是因為這個太技術性了，就是說能不能雙系統，因為現在行駛上有些列車是有雙系統，它到了A-21要切換成西門子的系統，但是我們舊的系統、英國系統，通常就相關的審計法規，它必須要使用13到15年才能去汰換。"],["魯委員明哲：我知道。"],["李部長孟諺：所以目前有請鐵道局……"],["魯委員明哲：所以你不清楚，我今天特別代表鐵道局做了一下簡報，透過清楚的簡報跟你報告，讓你瞭解，鐵道局回去後再補充說明。"],["李部長孟諺：就是技術上我們怎麼樣能夠……"],["魯委員明哲：不是，現在是問題怎麼解決。現在問題怎麼解決？你買了10列車放在A1站臺北火車站，你用鞭子鞭它不會動喔，因為裡面沒有裝訊號系統，沒有裝英維斯的DTG-R，它沒有這個系統。你說那我裝第二套系統，西門子的第二套系統，可以，你就跑中壢兩站，因為只有最後兩站是新的系統，你不可能嘛！可是你不買車，會變成國門的笑話，所以今天我要把這個問題提出來，不容易解決，但是要直接面對，因為當時不知道為什麼我們的運氣這麼好，這家英維斯的號誌系統，全世界的捷運只賣了兩家，一個是臺灣的機捷，第二個是英國的維多利亞線，我有聽說維多利亞線也準備其他整個他們的系統都要換了，不要到最後，我們的車開到一半，也沒有地方修！我們現在講真的，舊的車，我問過了，還有部分的備料，我自己覺得可能開個五年、六年，大概還有得修，主機板壞了，沒辦法，我們還可以修，不然拿到我們數位部去修也可以，我相信應該還是可以修好。可是你新車怎麼辦，時間這麼緊迫，你要怎麼辦？我也覺得這不是部長單獨可以去解決的。但你看，現在兵臨城下了，因為它發文給……現在這件事情最有效率的只有我們外交部，但今天沒有來，因為我們桃園捷運公司行文，鐵道局行文給英國代表處，英維斯不知道怎麼樣，天高皇帝遠，拜託幫我們去查一下。只有它當天接到函，三天之後就回函了，結果結論是說不好意思，一般商務，干我屁事啊！大概是這樣。就這樣求助無門啊。所以今天我為什麼要在這邊講？說好像都不是國家的事，拜託幫我們去問一下都不行，就說這個都沒有問題。","右手邊這個部分，部長要特別注意，6月26號，因為它已經弄了將近兩個月，沒辦法，求助無門，連做車的廠商他們都有去問，說可以賣你車，再去問一下訊號系統，因為車載系統要有鎖的位置，它也要預留這些位置，他們也問不到，因為它說停產了。所以現在的問題已經給鐵道局了，馬上交通部要做決定，因為這個事情真的不能拖。你買個車真的要到位，3年、5年不見得到得了，尤其是你現在只剩兩個選擇。院長，我想你協調過這麼多次，現在的問題點真的就只有兩個選擇，都很艱難。第一個選擇就是能不能舉全國之力找到舊的號誌系統DTG-R，而且是車載的、新的，確保未來10年、20年可以maintain都沒問題。如果能幫忙找到這個部分，那就沒問題了，就是這個新的車還是裝兩套，到了我們中壢，西門子再裝一套，兩套系統，就這樣湊合著過河。另外第二種方式，如果你真的買不到怎麼辦，因為現在都問不到，怎麼辦？院長，你要不要說一下？如果都買不到，你有沒有什麼初步的想法？"],["卓院長榮泰：我的想法是因為它現在雖然使用年限不到，但是安全的考量看有沒有特別的需求，否則就是現在如果買到舊的，未來還是問題啊！何況現在要買到舊的可能很麻煩，可能就是要全線做一個……"],["魯委員明哲：你也把問題整個講出來了，問題講出來後回去研究一下解決之道。部長呢？問題點……"],["李部長孟諺：因為這個廠商停產或是被併購，這個坦白說是屬於不可抗力的因素，等於當時在招標的時候沒有預料到使用的這個系統，後來這個廠商會不存在或是停產，所以我想這個部分我們會再跟相關的審計單位來做請示跟考量，看看有沒有辦法，因為一般來講是希望能夠用到15年的年限再更換。"],["魯委員明哲：我是覺得長痛不如短痛，有很多案子越拖可能要花的錢越多，絕對不會越少。現在的問題是這是我們國門重要的交通，真的一天也不能停，你也沒有辦法，這個車真的有這個需求，就算桃園市政府或者大眾捷運公司說不買，你還要逼他說這樣不行啊，到臺灣的旅客都不滿意，所以……"],["李部長孟諺：所以我會找國內的機電專家，大家來一起集思廣益。"],["魯委員明哲：你這個部分，第一個，舊系統能不能找到取代品，有沒有影響到專利？這是解決的第一個方案，第一個方案就是不換車，應該沒有這個方案啦！第二個方案就是提前重置嘛，就沒辦法啊，只有最新的一些系統，那你就從A1臺北火車站到現在的A21，它的車外的系統，車外的系統要不要重置成可以相容的系統？這個東西因為是一個招標的過程，我並不清楚，桃園到目前為止，其他的綠線，跟它連接的系統事實上都是用新的系統，如果說可以換，它真的可以開到八德去，不光是到火車站，但是按照採購法，我也不清楚到底可不可以換。如果可以換，第一個可以解決這個問題，第二個可以讓新北市已經提了超多次給交通部，有兩個未來的區段徵收區，人會住進來，A2a及A5a這兩個站，因為它要蓋，但沒有訊號系統啊，沒有辦法停啊，如果可以更新系統，他們一併新設站可以解決，這個部分因為我認為是行政院層級要統合的問題，是不是能拜託我們卓院長、部長還有鐵道局能夠深思這個問題，在三個月之內你總是要有一個方向，不然都來不及，可以嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：好，謝謝委員，今天的提醒非常重要，我倒寧願說我們長期來看需要一個全新的規劃比較好。"],["魯委員明哲：好。"],["卓院長榮泰：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝魯委員，謝謝院長。","陳瑩委員之質詢以書面提出，請行政院書面答復，並列入紀錄，刊登公報。","下一位請林倩綺委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":92,"meet_id":"院會-11-1-21","speakers":["韓國瑜","江啟臣","羅智強","顏寬恒","呂玉玲","游顥","林俊憲","李柏毅","吳秉叡","張宏陸","蘇巧慧","林月琴","黃秀芳","徐富癸","許智傑","魯明哲","林倩綺","李昆澤"],"page_start":26,"meetingDate":["2024-07-05"],"gazette_id":"1136601","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1136601_00003","1136601_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期第21次會議紀錄","content":"施政質詢\n對行政院院長報告施政方針繼續質詢─ 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平面再出去跟著原有的車留在那邊騎,是哪個交流道你知道嗎?"},{"start":347.057,"end":348.358,"text":"中峰交流道2020年3月份開始質詢"},{"start":366.488,"end":394.713,"text":"中風交流到那時候南向北向都還沒有做。所以我要特別謝謝啦我們事實上交通部也努力了也發包了那只是針對於北向北向就是北邊的車台北車要從中壢下OK我們中壢的車要從這個平面直接上到高架也OK這個部分算是非常非常方便但是因為當時我們本來這個規劃就是全向南"},{"start":395.373,"end":419.885,"text":"南邊的連結北邊連結都需要所以這個部分我要先請教一下那這個交流道我看我不要再問這個目前預計是115年的大概年初年初就很快就明年後年年初我們至少北邊的連結你們的幫忙在地方從高價直接可以下來的部分會有成果"},{"start":420.845,"end":444.065,"text":"那我想南向的這個部分要怎麼辦?那我想請跟院長再說一下,因為這是我四年半之前的板子,現在不再拿來了。那我是帶著我們整個桃園南區,包括里長,包括議長,真的很希望我們的中峰交流道能夠全面來做,但是當時你們看到右邊的公文嗎?"},{"start":445.206,"end":460.765,"text":"右邊的公文是寫的這個行政院的公文,蘇院長的公文他說第二期分期因為經費的關係因為往苗栗的高架要擴大一點免得一上去就堵車所以要並由現在"},{"start":463.058,"end":486.593,"text":"所謂的洋投國一拓寬工程一併來辦理那我想這個部分那請教部長好不好那這個部分我直接給你看一下你們給我的回答你可以照著念好不好就是下面北向工程嘛那南向工程你們的說法是今年會完成可信性評估綜合規劃然後在明年會"},{"start":489.127,"end":493.582,"text":"用力取得工程設計115年施工有沒有辦法做到"},{"start":496.154,"end":518.317,"text":"如果你115年施工,正好是我們羊頭拓寬也是準備開工嘛,那其實就搭上啦,有搭上,那這個部分可不可以……這個原來的構想就是要跟羊頭一起做,就是你剛提的這個南向的這個部分,115年要動工嘛,他就是跟著羊頭一起來執行。"},{"start":520.038,"end":540.885,"text":"我知道,現在因為羊頭拓寬要動了,你們不能忘了這一條,南向的好不好。然後再來的部分,我要特別在這裡也拜託院長,因為事實上你們去年提了一個桃竹苗大細股推動的方案,正好這個方案是以左眼以桃竹苗,"},{"start":541.385,"end":566.372,"text":"所以在這個方案裡面頭就是桃園然後剛好在交通部提的這個方案那在大西湖方案交通的策略是什麼其中一個最重要就是羊頭拓寬那在這拓寬段要串聯桃竹苗那個頭當然就是中峰北路交流道要讓南邊的貨物能夠從這邊下來不能夠全部都擠到機場交流道那邊進去"},{"start":567.512,"end":589.56,"text":"所以我想這個部分我就提到這裡請院長跟部長回去了解在經費時程上按照之前公文的承諾能夠多幫忙好不好好謝謝委員提醒剛剛有看到書前院長的公文我回去我們再研究一下公文的內容我們照公文的方式跟精神繼續看能不能做更有效率的運用"},{"start":590.54,"end":591.2,"text":"另外請問一下院長"},{"start":619.844,"end":648.339,"text":"我們機場……欸,民航局會不會嚇一跳?機場捷運,機場捷運你有沒有坐過啊?我沒有坐過機場捷運。你沒有坐過機場捷運?哦,你都是坐轎車。因為很少出國。哦,很少出國。哇,那這比較悲情一點。那部長你有沒有坐過機場捷運啊?應該……坐到機場?應該七、八次以上。七、八次了?對。有沒有去坐到機場過?"},{"start":649.943,"end":665.553,"text":"有阿有事實上機場捷運在疫後之後復甦的非常非常快這個部分事實上在好幾次質詢我們行政院也知道只是正好現在團隊因為整個患那就簡單再拿出來說一下"},{"start":666.494,"end":685.862,"text":"那我要特別拜託因為在剛開始的社聚運能本來是每個小時要載4700多人但是因為實際上不可能擠得跟沙丁魚一樣而且他的班聚後面因為驗收的問題他沒有辦法跑那麼密集所以現在實際的運能大概只有3500人左右"},{"start":686.542,"end":709.029,"text":"那各位包括院長部長你在看啊今年113年他每小時的運量已經到了4793人已經是我們實際運能的大概將近比他多出多出30%左右那如果再往上走你看到未來會碰到T3航廈的落成未來不管是"},{"start":710.309,"end":724.643,"text":"國際旅客來或準備要出國我想這是國門最重要的交通工具這不是地方的一個捷運那這個部分我覺得看到了未來的一個重大需求那我不知道院長有沒有被告知"},{"start":726.667,"end":754.005,"text":"在我們從3月份3月份我們當時交通委員會當然是跟前部長還有鐵道局局長是一樣的那我們特別有趣到我們地方來去做一個溝通那地方至上希望面臨這種運量大幅提升根本一倍的車都不夠那怎麼辦一定要買新的車沒辦法所以他們原本要的量可能是超過20列"},{"start":757.227,"end":757.608,"text":"主席"},{"start":768.38,"end":793.399,"text":"十輛叫十列抱歉齁十列那其中這個普通車跟那個抱歉一邊是直達車齁直達車普通車總共十列那這個部分有沒有交接啊院長因為這個到時候錢都要跟你要欸因為你知道嗎我們市長已經質詢了一兩年那我就怕沒有交接但是沒有關係不一定要在這裡講啦齁我們希望把這個問題提出來齁那"},{"start":796.121,"end":811.425,"text":"部長,那你說一下好不好,你知道這個情況吧?是,我大致上了解,就是當時有過相關的協議,就是資產移轉的部分跟這個購車的補助,希望兩個能夠是一起討論跟決定。"},{"start":814.037,"end":841.896,"text":"這個部分資產移轉跟購車事實上從鄭文燦市長的時代就很擔心嘛他說那你就購車也要講清楚現在你們說目前購車你們有提出一個方案當然我認為還沒有公文還沒具體化但我認為這個訊息要交接不能讓我們包括你們鐵道局交通部重新開始比如說二十列車談到了十列幾列直達車幾列普通車已經有個方向了"},{"start":842.496,"end":860.361,"text":"這個不要再談,要拜託你們來幫忙。那我想...那你跟委員報告。你說。機捷,自從去年我們開始推TPAS之後,機捷的運量增加了大概80%,所以TPAS對機捷的運能的提升其實有很大的幫助,也讓他可以轉虧為盈。"},{"start":861.997,"end":884.133,"text":"好我知道你講這個是就技工一次嘛好不好技工一次但是都一樣就是人很多啦人超多的不管是直搭車普通車這是真的啦好謝謝委員我除了去年有出國的時間之外比較少那季節的問題我想我們我可以再去深入的了解再跟委員做報告好事實上季節因為當時的所謂的運量是真的"},{"start":884.853,"end":899.185,"text":"不是這樣因為他忘了有人提了行李還提兩顆的這種實在是不夠那也希望有談的方案能夠持續的談下去但現在又遇到一個問題確實非常重要因為它是國家的重要門國家的門面"},{"start":903.508,"end":920.239,"text":"拜託兩位有一個非常重要的事,我覺得大家站在這裡就是解決問題,如果所有問題都是這種輕鬆如意的,也不需要大師兄或者我們前行政院秘書長,你們兩位都是秘書長級的,正好很多跨部會協調,你知道嗎,其實我們機場捷運的尤其"},{"start":924.915,"end":925.175,"text":"主席"},{"start":944.232,"end":964.778,"text":"我們早就已經蓋好,土木標都已經完成了,站都做好了,車一直不通。而且當時的一個政府,不管中央地方,言了六次,宣布明年要通車就絕對沒通,言了六次。那造成很多的一個民怨。那到底是誰惹的禍?原來都是機電耗製系統惹的禍。到底發生了什麼問題呢?因為當時玩紅商社"},{"start":967.239,"end":985.308,"text":"他覺得他自己能力夠就標了這樣的一個基電系統他本來應該自己做結果他講說我其實我也不會做他就轉給了英維斯公司英國的英維斯公司他會做就請他來那就實下合約就做嘛結果做到最後勒糟糕了"},{"start":986.581,"end":997.346,"text":"各做完之後要跟系統整合產生了非常大的問題系統整合一直出問題造成很多很多缺點一直沒有辦法改善"},{"start":998.79,"end":1021.261,"text":"院長你應該有聽說過這件事因為你做過秘書長你肯定有聽過這件事因為這個是扯的真的非常久即使106年3月2號終於就有些缺點不管了就上了就啟動了開始賽課了到現在為止到底有沒有合格驗收這個問部長好不好部長到底我們集結有沒有合格驗收完成"},{"start":1023.461,"end":1049.838,"text":"我知道當時是玩紅他是用這個用這個價格標來承攬這個機場捷運的工程所以後來工程會有一個明令就是價格標確實是會造成第一個沒有辦法找到一個優質的廠商那施工品質也堪慮所以所以後來工程會有明令要求所有的工程一定價格一定的金額以上一定要用評選"},{"start":1050.959,"end":1073.42,"text":"好了,其實我問題比較簡單啦,到底有沒有合格驗收,沒有啦,後面是減價驗收啦,缺失就沒辦法,沒辦法,你又不能把車還給他,這東西也不能還給他,後面是減價,當然有把它的一些的價金,把它沒入,那你應該知道吧。不過一場合法,減價驗收也是合法驗收的一種方式。合法減價驗收,好不好,跟證一下。"},{"start":1074.361,"end":1101.55,"text":"那為什麼呢?到底差在哪裡?為什麼?因為他到最後機電要做到大家都知道車殼這是骨骼嘛但是真正什麼時候跑什麼時候停安全系統跟營運系統全部都是靠這個機電耗資系統他是靈魂他這個靈魂弄不好所以他當時承諾的不管是行車的速度平均速率跟車距啊幾分鐘可以發一班都做不到好吧那這一套系統"},{"start":1104.403,"end":1129.077,"text":"玩紅商社在我們車上裝的血源系統叫做DTGR就是英維斯來自英國血源的一個系統叫做舊的訊號系統那現在發生什麼事呢還沒產完啊那現在做到了再剩兩站就到中壢火轍你知道嗎那因為我在現場監督啊就在外環道"},{"start":1129.918,"end":1146.17,"text":"在兩站2.06公里就到中壢火車站這不是中壢人在做南來北往的火車未來直接串接到我們的不管是清普或者到坐飛機都有另外一個管道我覺得很不錯嘛所以發包啊"},{"start":1147.97,"end":1166.751,"text":"這兩站一樣土木包早就做好了。最後啊積電標真是很坎坷啊驗收延這麼久就積電標從103年的9月發包到108年的7月8月9月整整5年的時間才發包出去。又是誰惹的禍你知道嗎?"},{"start":1167.796,"end":1195.893,"text":"又是耗資系統惹的禍都同樣一個人同樣又是他惹的禍為什麼這時候發生什麼事呢招標了15次5年發生什麼事呢發生了因為招標前面從臺北火車站到中壢外面的車外的系統都是玩紅商社的英維斯的DTGR的車機跟外圍的系統所以我要拜託再招標怎麼辦呢"},{"start":1196.934,"end":1197.034,"text":"因為2013年"},{"start":1221.82,"end":1232.825,"text":"因為是公司已經被併購了2014年他們的政策就改變了所以標了12次沒人來啊就這個系統已經沒有人要做了所以又怎麼解決啊"},{"start":1233.792,"end":1261.534,"text":"最後到第五年的時候這個鐵道局應該很清楚當時副局長他沒有辦法只要開放把規格開放任何的訊號廠商都可以來任何訊號廠商都可以來因為他問了全世界知名的訊號廠商公司在臺灣沒有一個可以做這種救的所以好吧任何人都可以來那怎麼辦呢所以所以看一下第二個系統出來了"},{"start":1264.412,"end":1281.716,"text":"劉彪15次弄了一個新的系統因為英文字太老舌LGMT西門子兩家不同學員不同系統不同東西不同運作的方式兩個東西我簡稱新跟舊那我跟你講"},{"start":1283.956,"end":1307.819,"text":"因為院長比較少做部長有做過八次那你可能沒有做到總領總領現在不錯總領做到A21的時候還要手動切換一下跟手排車一樣喀喀換成新的系統才能夠向前吐為什麼呢因為車友兩站的車外的系統是西門子的系統那這是全世界唯一應該唯一"},{"start":1309.81,"end":1330.602,"text":"一個車有車載兩個系統這就是現在一個情況好那我現在到底我要講什麼問題你們應該也想到那未來呢現在要買車了桃園市政府、捷工局、大東捷運公司蠻開心的然後因為要跟鐵道局、交通部要呈報細部計劃要實際要有報價要規範那當然去尋價那尋價尋到現在的結果是什麼"},{"start":1336.752,"end":1336.952,"text":"他回韓了"},{"start":1360.984,"end":1388.096,"text":"回憨說什麼就簡單你自己看一下啦黃色部分他說因為4號式系統啊DTGR由於第三方供貨已停產了好不好第三個如果真列的真夠列車搭載這個系統的解決方案對他們來說不可行就算現在中古的湊給你未來要維修20年我也幹不下去所以這是目前為止"},{"start":1389.076,"end":1413.147,"text":"我們在桃園他們要買車遇到了一個問題就是這個問題比剛剛那個中壢的兩站更嚴重因為你裝不到舊的系統從台北火車站開到我們中壢這個舊的系統都沒人跑他這個車也沒有辦法買所以這個根本的問題就完全沒有辦法解決我想這個問部長因為這個問題細一點部長你有沒有聽說過到這個問題"},{"start":1419.105,"end":1437.326,"text":"講真的這個問題我初步有了解但是還因為這個太技術性就是說能不能雙系統因為現在有點是在形式上是有有一些列車是有雙系統他到了A21他要切換成西門子的系統"},{"start":1438.217,"end":1440.878,"text":"所以你不清楚我今天特別代表鐵道局我做簡報"},{"start":1456.464,"end":1484.994,"text":"最清楚的簡報給你報告讓你了解。鐵道局回去再補充說明。不是現在是問題怎麼解決?現在問題怎麼解決?你買了實列車放在A站台北火站你用鞭子鞭它不會動喔?因為裡面沒有裝訊號系統。沒有裝英維斯的DTGR它沒有這個系統。那你說我裝第二套系統西門澤第二套系統可以。你就跑中壢兩站因為只有最後兩站是新的系統。"},{"start":1485.774,"end":1512.276,"text":"你不可能嘛可是你不買車會變成國門的笑話所以今天我要把這個問題不容易解決但是要直接面對因為當時不知道為什麼我們運氣這麼好這一家英維斯的訊號耗資系統全世界的捷運只賣了兩家一個是台灣的這個季節第二個是英國的維羅利亞縣"},{"start":1513.557,"end":1517.902,"text":"我有聽說維羅里亞縣他也準備其他整合他們系統都要換"},{"start":1518.985,"end":1543.538,"text":"不要到最後我們的車開到一半也沒有地方修我們現在講真的舊的舊的車我問過了還有部分的備料我自己覺得可能開個五年五年六年大概還有的修主機板壞了沒辦法我們還可以修不然拿到我們數位部去修也可以我相信應該還是可以修好可是你新車怎麼辦時間這麼緊迫你要怎麼辦"},{"start":1546.96,"end":1574.647,"text":"所以我想這個因為我也覺得這不是部長單獨可以去這個解決的好那你看喔兵臨城下囉因為他發文給現在這件事情最有效率的只有我們外交部今天沒有來因為就是我們桃園捷運公司行文解公局行文給這個英國代表出來因為英為斯不知道怎麼樣天罡皇帝委員拜託幫我們去查一下只有他當天"},{"start":1576.492,"end":1603.115,"text":"這個接到函三天之後就回函了就結論是說不好意思一般商務法干我屁事大概是這樣就這樣求助無門所以今天我們為什麼在那邊講說好像都不是國家的事拜託幫我們去問一下都不行就是說這個都沒問題那右手邊我們這個部長要特別注意6月26號6月26號因為他們已經弄了將近兩個月沒辦法求助無門"},{"start":1604.171,"end":1631.722,"text":"連坐車的廠商他們都去問我可以賣你車那我再問我去問一下信號系統因為車載系統要鎖的位置他也要預留這些位置他們也問不到他說停產了所以這個問題現在的問題已經給鐵道局了馬上交通部你要做決定因為這個事情真的不能拖你要買個車真的到位三年五年不見得到得了尤其是你現在只剩兩個選擇"},{"start":1634.056,"end":1648.307,"text":"院長我想你協調過這麼多次現在問題點真的就只有兩個選擇都很艱難第一個選擇就是能不能集全國之力找到舊的耗資系統DTGR"},{"start":1650.268,"end":1650.428,"text":"﹚主席"},{"start":1670.155,"end":1692.558,"text":"另外第二種方式呢?如果你真的買不到怎麼辦?因為現在都問不到怎麼辦?院長你要不要說一下?如果都買不到,你有沒有什麼初步的想法?我的想法是因為他現在雖然使用零線不到啦,但是安全的考量看有沒有特別的需求,否則就是現在如果買到舊的未來還是問題。況現在要買到舊的可能很麻煩。"},{"start":1693.541,"end":1698.182,"text":"另外就是說這個廠商停產或是被購併、被併購這個坦白說是屬於不可抗力的因素。因為當時在招標的時候沒有預料到使用的這個系統後來這個廠商會已經不存在或是停產。"},{"start":1719.506,"end":1729.034,"text":"所以我想這個部分我們會再跟相關的審計單位來做請示跟考量有沒有辦法因為一般來講是希望能夠用15年的年限"},{"start":1730.134,"end":1758.262,"text":"我是覺得長痛不如短痛有很多案子越拖可能要花的錢越多絕對不會越少那現在這個問題問題是我們國門重要的交通真的一天也不能停你也沒有辦法這個車真的有這個需求就算臺灣市政府或者大宗捷運公司說不買你還要逼他你這樣不行啊到臺灣的旅客都不滿意所以我們會找國內的機電專家大家來一起及時廣譯這個部分第一個舊系統能不能找到或者取代品有沒有影響到專利這解決的第一個方案"},{"start":1759.022,"end":1778.289,"text":"第二個方案,那個方案就是不換車,應該沒有這個方案,第二個方案就是提前重置嘛,那就沒辦法,那就只有最新的一些系統,那就從這個A1台北火車站到現在的A21,它的車外的系統,車外的系統,"},{"start":1779.431,"end":1804.312,"text":"要不要重置成可以相容的系統那我也這個東西因為是一個招標的過程我並不清楚因為桃園目前為止其他的綠線跟他連結的系統他事實上都是用新的系統如果說可以換他真的可以開到八德去還是不光是到火車站但是按照採購法我也不清楚到底可不可以換那如果可以換第一個可以做解決這個問題"},{"start":1805.473,"end":1819.828,"text":"第二個可以讓新北市已經提了超多次給交通部他有兩個未來的區段徵收區人會住進來A2A、A5A這個站因為他要蓋啊"},{"start":1820.709,"end":1822.83,"text":"謝謝委員,今天的提醒非常重要。我倒寧願說我們常"},{"start":1852.995,"end":1853.016,"text":"報告。"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}