{"error":false,"id":["154555"],"data":{"IVOD_ID":154555,"IVOD_URL":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154555","日期":"2024-07-08","會議資料":{"會議代碼":"委員會-11-1-35-32","會議代碼:str":"第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第32次全體委員會議","屆":11,"會期":1,"會次":32,"臨時會會次":null,"種類":"委員會","委員會代碼":[35],"委員會代碼:str":["外交及國防委員會"],"標題":"第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第32次全體委員會議"},"影片種類":"Clip","開始時間":"2024-07-08T09:27:41+08:00","結束時間":"2024-07-08T09:37:33+08:00","影片長度":"00:09:52","支援功能":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/80b8605eb635256a40ba9e51b104253ace876c6524d02f364ff7eb5b876a53c551f247d58ac47c445ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"黃國昌","委員發言時間":"09:27:41 - 09:37:33","會議時間":"2024-07-08T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第32次全體委員會議（變更議程）（事由：邀請國家安全局局長蔡明彥、大陸委員會、文化部、國家通訊傳播委員會、法務部調查局報告「近期中共對台滲透作為樣態與因應」，並備質詢。）","gazette":{"lineno":127,"blocks":[["黃委員國昌：（9時27分）謝謝主席，麻煩有請國安局局長、文化部政務次長。"],["主席：請蔡局長、文化部次長。"],["蔡局長明彥：謝謝主席，委員好。"],["黃委員國昌：兩位好。這個問題我上禮拜就想問了，只不過上禮拜外交及國防委員會，事實上宣布開會卻休息到天荒地老，後來就莫名其妙散會了，上禮拜我相信局長也很辛苦，在下面枯坐非常久。今天有機會要詢問局長，過去這個禮拜從我揭發以來，越來越多人關心，中國的資通訊產品用在我們的軍事要塞裡面，這件事情很嚴重。之前國安會就說過八大關鍵基礎設施禁用中國設備，我們的軍事要塞算是八大關鍵基礎設施嗎？請國安局長說明。"],["蔡局長明彥：我們的八大關鍵基礎設施主要是依照2020年的資通安全管理法所列……"],["黃委員國昌：這個我知道，裡面有軍事要塞嗎？"],["蔡局長明彥：裡面沒有特別強調軍事要塞。"],["黃委員國昌：你覺得這樣對嗎？"],["蔡局長明彥：這主要是涉及行政院跟國防部的軍事要塞跟關鍵基礎設施，它有做特別不同的處理……"],["黃委員國昌：沒有關係，第一個，這個問題其實我之前就問過了，我們的軍事要塞竟然沒有列在關鍵基礎設施裡，我覺得非常扯，非常多位教授也對這個事情提出非常猛烈的批判。軍事要塞的重要性絕對不亞於關鍵基礎設施，這個局長認同嗎？"],["蔡局長明彥：我同意。"],["黃委員國昌：好。國安局在2022年的時候就說，中國的資通訊軟體有嚴重的資安威脅，在2022年的時候就已經跟全體國人講過了，沒有想到國家拿納稅人的30億去投資綠能國家隊，這不是普通的公司，這個公司虧了一百多億，本來要掛了，結果民進黨政府拿納稅人的30億，本來是國發基金變成紓困基金，紓困這家公司以後，從國發基金進去到現在又虧了一百多億。這個是國發會要處理的問題，但讓我詫異的事情是什麼？我們的綠能國家隊是不是變成第五縱隊？我為什麼會這樣講？竟然在裡面裝中國製的逆變器，這個我很早以前就揭露了，也請他們去查，我不曉得國防部真的有把國家安全放在心上嗎？查下去以後回報說，對，它裝的是逆變器，在蘭陽指揮部。蘭陽指揮部是軍事要塞，那邊大概有3,000個國軍弟兄。結果後來發現不是只有逆變器，中國製的路由器、工業電腦全部都放在這裡面，從國安局的角度來講，這件事嚴不嚴重？"],["蔡局長明彥：我想綠能的發展是國家的重要政策，政府的相關部會包括國防部，在配合過程當中也應該要注意到一些資通訊產品安全的問題。"],["黃委員國昌：顯然就沒注意嘛！"],["蔡局長明彥：應該要注意。"],["黃委員國昌：應該要注意，但顯然沒注意嘛！"],["蔡局長明彥：不過，也要跟委員說明一下，我們知道的是在契約當中好像也有提到類似要……"],["黃委員國昌：這就是我今天要請教國安局的重點，你們知道了這件事情以後，到目前為止採取了什麼行動？你們有沒有去瞭解裝了多久？傳輸了多少data？到目前為止有瞭解這件事嗎？"],["蔡局長明彥：有，我們有去瞭解相關狀況，也有跟國防部保持聯繫，我們會把……"],["黃委員國昌：瞭解以後的結果是什麼？"],["蔡局長明彥：我們會提供給國防部來查處，對外由主管機關國防部來說明。"],["黃委員國昌：就你們瞭解的結果，有沒有涉及到國家機密？方不方便給所有的委員知道你們查處的結果？因為我很關心，那個不是裝在裡面，被抓到拆下來就算了，裝上去以後到被抓到為止，中間這段時間發生了什麼事？你們國安局說，這是非常嚴重的國安威脅，那從裝上去以後到現在發生了什麼事，顯然國安局就有責任要查處，我應該沒說錯吧？"],["蔡局長明彥：對，主責機關還是在國防部，國防部在調查過程中需要我們來提供相關的資訊，我們全力來配合。"],["黃委員國昌：沒有關係，國安局到底有沒有去查處？有還是沒有？剛剛你說有，現在聽起來好像是國防部的事。"],["蔡局長明彥：沒有，主管的權責在國防部。"],["黃委員國昌：這我理解，國安局有沒有去查處？"],["蔡局長明彥：對，這個案子我們去瞭解，在委員……"],["黃委員國昌：瞭解完以後，現在資訊給國防部了嗎？"],["蔡局長明彥：有，上禮拜就已經給了。"],["黃委員國昌：那資料可不可以給其他立委一份？還是那有涉及到國家機密？"],["蔡局長明彥：我們會建議由國防部統一所有的資訊來對委員說明。"],["黃委員國昌：好，沒有關係，但我今天的關鍵問題是什麼？我們的資通安全管理法第五條明明就有規定，制定各機關對危害國家資通安全產品限制使用原則，其中第三點說，主管機關應基於國家安全等等，要提供你們核定的產品清單，那核定的產品清單現在在哪裡？你瞭解嗎？"],["蔡局長明彥：這應該要由國防部來提供相關的產品清單。"],["黃委員國昌：不是，請一下陸委會副主委，好嗎？"],["主席：請副主委。"],["黃委員國昌：資通安全管理法的主管機關叫行政院，但我相信行政院自己不會做，行政院一定是統合下面所有的部會把這個清單列出來，請教一下副主委，目前這個清單在哪裡？"],["梁副主任委員文傑：資通安全的主管機關應該是數位部，所以這是由數位部來統籌。"],["黃委員國昌：好，沒有關係，到時候我會去問數位部，但你們去看資通安全管理法，它的主管機關寫的是誰，寫的是行政院，所以我呼籲一下，行政院，那個清單到底在哪裡？讓大家知道一下。","除了這個清單以外，下一個問題，違反資通安全管理法以後，我請教一下國安局局長，我們有資通安全管理法，資通安全管理法有授權去定行政命令，去做這個清單，現在問題來了，明明不能用卻用了，它的法律效果是什麼？"],["蔡局長明彥：有兩部分，一部分是委員現在在問的法律效果，另外一部分就是……"],["黃委員國昌：沒有關係，你先告訴我法律效果就好了，它的法律效果是什麼？因為我看了半天，我找不到，我們有這個法，有授權主管機關去列禁止清單，現在抓到了，我就在找法律效果，抓到以後怎樣？抓到以後沒有法律效果啊！不痛不癢，還是法律效果寫在什麼地方，是我不清楚的，請局長說明。"],["蔡局長明彥：對，這也是我剛剛在講的，除了法律效果以外，還有第二部分，就是契約，在契約的過程當中有沒有一些……"],["黃委員國昌：來，我們來看，你如果按照契約要去規範涉及國家安全這麼嚴重的事情，那這件事情本身就嚴重了，我再說一次，涉及到國安威脅的事情，如果我們在法律上是要透過契約去規範，那這件事情是非常嚴重的，怎麼會透過契約去處理會涉及國安威脅的事呢？如果違反了，在法律上就應該要有法律效果啊！結果搞了半天，沒有法律效果！因為沒有法律效果，所以這些廠商「無要無緊」嘛！你定你的規範，你列你的清單，我不要遵守又怎樣？到時候被抓到了，就像我們國防部現在的態度一樣軟趴趴。軟趴趴啊！軟到快要跪下去了啊！被抓到怎麼辦？就拜託你把它換一換！如果是這個樣子，在面對有關或對於國安造成極大威脅的中共資通訊產品的時候，這樣的管制是出現嚴重問題的！竟然透過契約！局長，你贊不贊成？"],["蔡局長明彥：我們尊重委員的意見。"],["黃委員國昌：這不是尊重我的意見啦！你做為主管機關，對於國防安全、國家安全這麼嚴重的事情，違反卻沒有法律效果，而是透過契約來規範，這樣的規範模式局長贊成嗎？"],["蔡局長明彥：我想這部分可能還要行政院這邊再做相關進一步的評估。"],["黃委員國昌：行政院這邊還要再做評估啊？沒有關係……"],["蔡局長明彥：這不是我們的業管……"],["黃委員國昌：沒有關係，今天陸委會的副主委也在旁邊，我相信副主委應該會把這個意見反映給行政院吧？副主委，把這個意見反映給行政院，沒有問題吧？"],["梁副主任委員文傑：好。"],["黃委員國昌：可以吧？好，謝謝。"],["蔡局長明彥：謝謝。"],["主席：好，謝謝。","接下來請徐巧芯委員上台質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":100,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-35-32","speakers":["馬文君","陳冠廷","沈伯洋","黃國昌","徐巧芯","黃仁","羅美玲","賴士葆","林憶君","張啓楷","洪孟楷","葉元之","王定宇","林楚茵","陳永康","洪申翰","牛煦庭"],"page_start":47,"meetingDate":["2024-07-08"],"gazette_id":"1137201","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1137201_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第32次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請國家安全局局長蔡明彥、大陸委員會、文化部、國家通訊傳播委員會、法務部調查局報告\n「近期中共對台滲透作為樣態與因應」，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1137201_00003"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":0.21659375000000003,"end":3.72659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":4.654718750000001,"end":6.8990937500000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":4.755968750000001,"end":5.127218750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":6.8990937500000005,"end":6.93284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":6.98346875,"end":8.83971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":9.31221875,"end":9.73409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":12.704093750000002,"end":13.750343750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":17.766593750000002,"end":18.93096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":19.67346875,"end":21.664718750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":22.20471875,"end":23.58846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":24.06096875,"end":25.34346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":26.01846875,"end":27.01409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":27.520343750000002,"end":28.262843750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":28.515968750000003,"end":30.01784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":30.304718750000003,"end":43.80471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":44.32784375,"end":48.42846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":49.37346875,"end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裡面沒有特別去強調軍事要塞那你覺得這樣對嗎"},{"start":81.796,"end":110.233,"text":"因為這主要是涉及到行政院跟國防部把軍事要塞跟關鍵基礎設施他有做特別不同的處理那沒有關係嘛第一個事情是這個問題其實我之前就問過了啦我們的軍事要塞竟然沒有列在關鍵基礎設施我也覺得非常的扯啦非常多的教授也對這個事情提出非常猛烈的批判但軍事要塞他的重要性絕對不會亞於關鍵基礎設施這個局長你認同嗎我同意同意嗎好"},{"start":111.494,"end":135.332,"text":"所以國安局之前在2022年的時候就說中國的自通訊軟體有嚴重的治安危險這個是在2022年的時候就已經跟全體國人講過了結果沒有想到我們國家拿納稅人30億去投資的綠能國家隊這不是普通的公司這家公司本來要掛啦虧了一百多億要掛啦"},{"start":141.563,"end":165.711,"text":"結果我們的民進黨政府拿納稅的30億本來是國發基金變成紓困基金紓困給這家公司以後從我們的國發基金進去到現在又虧了100多億這個是國發會要處理的問題但讓我詫異的事情是什麼我們的綠能國家隊是不是變成第五縱隊我為什麼會這樣講既然在裡面裝中國製的逆變器"},{"start":172.063,"end":198.688,"text":"這我很早以前就揭露也請他們去查結果查了以後我們的我也不曉得國防部真的有把國家安全放在心上嗎查下去以後回報的說對他裝的是逆變器在南洋指揮部南洋指揮部是軍事要塞我們的國軍弟兄在那邊大概有3000個人結果的後來發現還不是"},{"start":202.438,"end":211.113,"text":"只有逆變器中國製的路由器、工業電腦全部都放在這裡面從國安局的角度來講這件事嚴不嚴重"},{"start":212.878,"end":240.74,"text":"我想就那個綠能的發展是國家重要政策那政府的相關部會包括國防部在配合過程當中也應該要注意到一些資通訊產品安全的問題這顯然就沒注意嘛應該要注意嘛顯然沒注意嘛不過也跟委員說明一下我們知道的是在契約當中好像也有提到類似要進這個就是我今天要請教國安局的重點啦你們知道了這件事情了以後到目前為止採取了什麼行動"},{"start":241.661,"end":266.479,"text":"你們有沒有去了解裝了多久傳輸了多少data到目前為止有了解這件事嗎有 我們去了解相關的狀況那也跟國防部這邊有保持聯繫那我們會把我們了解以後的結果是什麼我們會提供給國防部來查處那對外的說明由主管機關國防部來對外說你們了解的結果有沒有涉及到國家機密方不方便給所有的委員知道你們查處的結果因為我很關心啊"},{"start":267.455,"end":275.227,"text":"那個不是裝在裡面被抓到拆下來就算了耶裝上去以後到被抓到為止中間這段時間發生了什麼事"},{"start":277.369,"end":304.978,"text":"你們國安局說這是非常嚴重的國安威脅那從抓上去以後到現在發生什麼事顯然國安局就有責任要查處嘛我應該沒說錯吧主責機關還是在國防部啦那國防部調查過程需要我們來提供相關的資訊資源沒有關係國安局到底有沒有去查處 有還是沒有剛你說有 現在聽起來好像是國防部的事對 沒有 主管的全責在國防部這個我理解 國安局有沒有去查處"},{"start":305.418,"end":308.079,"text":"我們的《滲透安全管理法》第5條明明就有訂嘛"},{"start":329.713,"end":349.728,"text":"制定各機關對危害國家滲透安全產品限制使用原則那裡面第三點說主管機關因機於國家安全等等等等然後呢要去提供你們核定的產品清單那核定的產品清單現在在哪裡你瞭解嗎這應該要由國防部來部相關的產品清單那個請一下陸委會的副主委好嗎"},{"start":361.836,"end":379.025,"text":"請副主委自動安全管理法它的主管機關叫行政院但我相信行政院自己不會做啦行政院一定是統合下面所有的部會把這個清單列出來嘛來請教一下副主委目前這個清單在哪裡"},{"start":380.563,"end":407.496,"text":"自動安全的主管機關應該是數位部所以這個是由數位部來統籌沒有關係我到時候我會去問數位部但你們就看自動安全管理法它的主管機關寫的是誰寫的是行政院所以我也呼籲一下行政院那個清單到底在哪裡讓大家知道一下但除了這個清單以外下一個問題"},{"start":408.576,"end":412.898,"text":"滋通安全管理法我們違反了以後來請教一下國安局局長我們有滋通安全管理法嘛滋通安全管理法有授權嘛授權去訂行政命令去做這個清單那我現在問題來了明明不能用卻用了他的法律效果是什麼"},{"start":431.09,"end":453.227,"text":"對,他有兩部分,因為部分是委員現在在問的法律的效果那另外一個就是沒有關係,你先告訴我法律效果就好了他的法律效果是什麼?因為我看了半天我找不到我們有這個法,也授權主管機關去列禁止清單那現在抓到了,然後我就在找法律效果啊抓到以後又怎樣?抓到以後沒有法律效果啊"},{"start":457.09,"end":461.171,"text":"來,我們來看你如果按照契約要去規範涉及到國家安全這麼嚴重的事情那這件事情本身就嚴重了我再說一次"},{"start":481.169,"end":506.654,"text":"涉及到國安威脅的事情如果我們在法律上是要透過契約去規範那這件事情是非常嚴重的事情怎麼會透過契約去處理有關於會涉及到國安威脅的事呢你違反了在法律上就應該要有法律效果啊結果搞了半天沒有法律效果沒有法律效果所以這些廠商沒藥沒金嘛"},{"start":508.322,"end":519.985,"text":"你訂你的規範你列你的清單我不要遵守又怎樣到時候被抓到了啊被抓到了就像我們國防部現在的態度一樣啊軟趴趴軟趴趴軟到快要跪下去啦被抓到怎麼辦拜託你把他換一換拜託你把他換一換"},{"start":531.229,"end":557.876,"text":"如果是這個樣子在面對有關於會對於國安造成極大威脅的中共滲透性產品的話這樣的管制啊是出現嚴重的問題啊竟然透過契約局長你贊不贊成我們尊重委員的意見這不是尊重我的意見啊你作為主管機關一個國防安全一個國家安全這麼嚴重的事情違反沒有法律效果"},{"start":558.922,"end":579.911,"text":"通過契約來規範這樣的規範模式 局長贊成嗎我想這部分可能還要行政院這邊再做相關進一步的評估行政院這邊還要再做評估啊沒有關係今天陸委會的主委也在旁邊了啦我相信副主委應該會把這個意見反映給行政院吧副主委把這個意見反映給行政院沒有問題吧可以齁好 謝謝"},{"start":587.514,"end":589.019,"text":"許巧欣委員上台質詢"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}