{"error":false,"id":["154563"],"data":{"IVOD_ID":154563,"IVOD_URL":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154563","日期":"2024-07-08","會議資料":{"會議代碼":"委員會-11-1-35-32","會議代碼:str":"第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第32次全體委員會議","屆":11,"會期":1,"會次":32,"臨時會會次":null,"種類":"委員會","委員會代碼":[35],"委員會代碼:str":["外交及國防委員會"],"標題":"第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第32次全體委員會議"},"影片種類":"Clip","開始時間":"2024-07-08T10:50:10+08:00","結束時間":"2024-07-08T10:59:47+08:00","影片長度":"00:09:37","支援功能":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/80b8605eb635256a22338a8f5aae1f74ce876c6524d02f36123a2add11c74db0a50e264968218f985ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"張啓楷","委員發言時間":"10:50:10 - 10:59:47","會議時間":"2024-07-08T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第32次全體委員會議（變更議程）（事由：邀請國家安全局局長蔡明彥、大陸委員會、文化部、國家通訊傳播委員會、法務部調查局報告「近期中共對台滲透作為樣態與因應」，並備質詢。）","gazette":{"lineno":577,"blocks":[["張委員啓楷：（10時50分）謝謝主席。請國安局長跟陸委會副主委。"],["主席：請蔡局長、陸委會梁副主委。"],["蔡局長明彥：謝謝主席。張委員早。"],["張委員啓楷：先請教梁副主委，你剛才說兩國論不夠精確，你們主委說是兩岸嘛！精準一點，是兩國還是兩岸？"],["梁副主任委員文傑：我們陸委會是依據臺灣地區與大陸地區人民關係條例所成立的，所以嚴格來講，就必須要講臺灣地區與大陸地區的關係，但是因為我們習慣上……"],["張委員啓楷：所以是兩岸，你說兩岸人民關係條例，所以是兩岸嘛？"],["梁副主任委員文傑：習慣上都是講兩岸。"],["張委員啓楷：所以收回你本來講的兩國嗎？精準一點、再精準一點，我們現在是兩岸關係，是不是？"],["梁副主任委員文傑：當然就是兩岸關係。"],["張委員啓楷：所以有收回你本來講的兩國？"],["梁副主任委員文傑：我本來講的事情，那個不是我講的，那個是廣播節目主持人詮釋我的話……"],["張委員啓楷：清楚一點，這個很關鍵，所以兩國不是你說的？"],["梁副主任委員文傑：現在是主持人在詮釋我的話。"],["張委員啓楷：非常明確的、精準的，現在是兩岸關係？"],["梁副主任委員文傑：本來就是兩岸關係。"],["張委員啓楷：這是很精準的，已經定調了喔？"],["梁副主任委員文傑：對，本來就是兩岸關係。"],["張委員啓楷：OK！請局長。剛剛副主委那個東西的講話就精準了，我們要問精準的事情，自由時報說中國媒體盯場我們的政論節目，你現在查到什麼程度？有一個很重要的發展，陸委會主委改口了，陸委會主委已經改口了，他說沒有確有其事，對不對？所以現在有有三種可能，確有其事可能還在；第二種就是可能自由時報造謠或者有某些人造謠，可能有一個空間，現在比較……你調查到目前，到底是確有其事還是沒有？是造謠？"],["蔡局長明彥：國安局沒有調查權，我們有相關的情資，有針對相關的情資，我們移送到調查局偵辦。"],["張委員啓楷：所以目前你是有情資，你沒辦法判斷是確有其事還是造謠？"],["蔡局長明彥：對，我們沒有調查權……"],["張委員啓楷：到目前沒有辦法確定，對不對？"],["蔡局長明彥：交給調查局調查。"],["張委員啓楷：OK！好，你這個情資一定是有來源，來源是哪裡？"],["蔡局長明彥：對，依照國家的情報工作法，我們不會透露我們的來源。"],["張委員啓楷：沒有啊，你是不是應該跟民眾說來源是哪裡？"],["蔡局長明彥：沒有，這是法律規定。"],["張委員啓楷：你完全沒有一個來源……"],["蔡局長明彥：這是法律規定……"],["張委員啓楷：局長、局長，這個事情非常嚴重。"],["蔡局長明彥：我講清楚……"],["張委員啓楷：發生事情到目前為止，已經兩個禮拜了，國安單位沒有清楚出來跟人民講，到底這個事情嚴重性到什麼地方，目前有兩個很嚴重的，人民可能人心惶惶啊！我做電視節目16年，發現有中國媒體給你腳本還盯場，這是多重要的事情。第二、被你們影射的東森現在很倒楣，東森電視臺關鍵時刻跟劉寶傑，不是很倒楣嗎？你能不能比較明確地說明你的源頭、你的來源是什麼人？剛才沈伯洋有講，你要查從源頭先查，你沒有一個源頭，連源頭都沒有，你還能夠查？"],["蔡局長明彥：我來說明一下……"],["張委員啓楷：造成人民人心惶惶，國安是不是有問題？第二個，我們的媒體已經被中國媒體控制了嗎？這兩點都很重要。"],["蔡局長明彥：假如有這樣的樣態的話，當然是一個重大的國安事件，代表臺灣自由的媒體會遭到中共一個相關的制約，有這樣問題的話，我們一定會嚴加來查察，所以我們在第一時間有相關的資訊之後就移送到調查局來偵辦，因為國安局並沒有相關的行政調查權或司法調查權，所以由調查局偵辦。"],["張委員啓楷：局長，所有的事情就是你剛才說的那個源頭，你不能……"],["蔡局長明彥：第三個，我們沒有影射任何的媒體，我們沒有影射任何的媒體。"],["張委員啓楷：沒有，所以到目前為止沒有說是東森？沒有說是關鍵時刻？"],["蔡局長明彥：國安局的系統沒有做這樣的一個評論，從來沒有，到現在為止都是。"],["張委員啓楷：局長，你現在不要「看一个影，生一个囝」。"],["蔡局長明彥：沒有，我們……"],["張委員啓楷：你的源頭在哪裡？你最少也要有一個源頭，你你目前只看到一個影子而已，對不對？"],["蔡局長明彥：國家情報單位不會去洩漏我們的情訊來源，這是法律規定，這是情報工作法第八條的規定。"],["張委員啓楷：好，那我講……"],["蔡局長明彥：所以我們已經移送到檢調單位來偵辦。"],["張委員啓楷：至少一般民眾都知道一開始是哪個報紙登了吧？自由總是要查吧？那個記者你也要查，資深媒體也要查，是不是？"],["蔡局長明彥：這部分就由主管機關進行行政調查，以及相關的檢調單位來釐清。"],["張委員啓楷：差不多要多久會給我們一個比較明確的……"],["蔡局長明彥：我沒有辦法替檢調單位來回答這個問題。"],["張委員啓楷：局長，我提醒兩個剛剛一直在提醒的，國安事件，你說得這麼明確……"],["蔡局長明彥：有的話，確實是嚴重的問題。"],["張委員啓楷：人民的感覺是怎樣？你要顧及到人民的感覺。第二個，媒體的自由是不是受到侵犯？你看東森倒楣成這樣，好不好？","我請梁副主委，我們來講專業一點、講精準一點的，你以前來上我的節目，我主持節目時，你至少來五十次以上。"],["梁副主任委員文傑：是。"],["張委員啓楷：我曾經給過你腳本嗎？"],["梁副主任委員文傑：不曾。"],["張委員啓楷：局長，你有聽到嗎？所有臺灣的政論節目怎麼會有腳本？你把這個當情資去辦？"],["蔡局長明彥：有這樣的情資當然要辦，沒有辦是國安局失職。"],["張委員啓楷：你的情資可能違反人民的常識。"],["蔡局長明彥：沒有，進入調查之後由檢調機關來還原，我們沒有報的話是我們失職，謝謝。"],["張委員啓楷：局長，我剛剛說你「看一个影，生一个囝」，我現在跟你說的就是政論節目，臺灣的政論節目是非常自由的，沒有腳本這個事啦，你旁邊的副主委跟你說過了，他長久……他以前也是常常上節目。"],["蔡局長明彥：所以假如有的話，我剛剛已經講了，假如有的話非常嚴重，既然有這樣的情資，我們就必須移送司法調查。"],["張委員啓楷：你現在聽到的是有嗎？"],["梁副主任委員文傑：委員……"],["張委員啓楷：文傑，等一下、等一下，局長，你等一下，局長，你講這個話要很負責喔！"],["蔡局長明彥：負責，有相關的情資移送調查、有相關的情資。"],["張委員啓楷：你的情資是包括我們的政論節目有腳本，然後有中國大陸媒體來盯場？"],["蔡局長明彥：對，有相關情資。"],["張委員啓楷：自由時報這一篇嗎？除了這篇還有甚麼？臺灣有什麼人講這麼沒有常識的話，違反做政論節目的常識？"],["蔡局長明彥：對啊！所以才要調查啊！"],["張委員啓楷：才要調查？所以不管媒體寫甚麼東西……"],["蔡局長明彥：這確實是有異常的狀況，甚至有違法的可能，我既然沒有調查權，我們就移送調查、釐清狀況。"],["張委員啓楷：局長，不管有合理、沒有合理，有沒有違反常識，只要寫出來，國安局都去調查？"],["蔡局長明彥：對，我們就請……"],["張委員啓楷：國安局很重要，負責國家安全。"],["蔡局長明彥：是。"],["張委員啓楷：不合理的東西……"],["蔡局長明彥：啟動調查才知道有沒有……"],["張委員啓楷：你啟動調查……"],["蔡局長明彥：調查才有辦法釐清……"],["張委員啓楷：這樣不是只有自由時報而已，臺灣的媒體很多，我跟你說！"],["蔡局長明彥：不要擴大影射，讓檢調單位去進行調查，不要胡亂影射，會造成媒體的恐慌。"],["張委員啓楷：局長，我們心平氣和來討論一下吧！"],["蔡局長明彥：是。"],["張委員啓楷：你這段時間，這兩個禮拜以來，除了自由時報寫的那個源頭之外，臺灣已經有多少媒體跟你講這個違反政論節目製作原則？我們臺灣是一個民主法治的社會，我們媒體是很受尊重的，我剛剛講為什麼沒有給腳本，我們臺灣的媒體人、名嘴、政治評論員是非常受到尊重的，你叫他拿東西去讀，我剛才為什麼問梁文傑，文傑來我的節目，我如果叫他唸一個東西，這不侵犯我們臺灣的民主自由和法制嗎？"],["蔡局長明彥：是這樣沒有錯。"],["張委員啓楷：所以我說連這個常識你們都沒有，國安局就把他送去了，你可以送，那你先去查，我就跟你講不會有腳本、不會有盯場這個事情，因為這個對我們臺灣的媒體是一個非常大的侮辱，你現在講的事情對臺灣媒體是非常大的侮辱。"],["蔡局長明彥：對，所以要讓檢調查清楚、讓檢調查清楚，我們尊重司法檢調調查的過程跟結果，其他的評論，我覺得還是應該留待社會公評。"],["張委員啓楷：局長，你可以把自由時報當情資去查，我現在是提醒你，這兩個禮拜以來所有的媒體除了自由時報以外，你去看中時、聯合或者網路媒體、TVBS，每個電視臺最少七、八十間，七、八十間說沒有這個事情，有一家說有，七、八十家都沒有，又牽扯到你的國家安全，又牽扯到我們的新聞自由。"],["蔡局長明彥：是啊！"],["張委員啓楷：那你要去查之前，你是不是要先看這七、八十間是怎麼講的？你為什麼一直去找自由時報？我剛才講過，你去問一下，那個記者……"],["蔡局長明彥：自由時報的報導跟我們沒有關係，自由時報的報導跟我們沒有關係，他們的報導，我們沒有任何的……"],["張委員啓楷：局長，你講這麼久，你的意思有兩種，你的意思有兩種喔，第一種，你有另外情資嗎？"],["蔡局長明彥：是啊，我們本來就有另外情資，我們本來就有另外情資。"],["張委員啓楷：不是自由時報？"],["蔡局長明彥：我們一開始就講得很清楚……"],["張委員啓楷：等一下、等一下，這是很重要的事情。"],["蔡局長明彥：我們一開始就講清楚，我們上禮拜的專報就講清楚了，我們一開始就有得到相關的情資，所以把情資送給檢調單位來立案偵辦，就是這麼清楚。自由時報的報導歸自由時報的報導，兩個沒有關係，謝謝委員。"],["張委員啓楷：所以局長講的很……"],["蔡局長明彥：上禮拜就講過、上禮拜就講過了、上禮拜就講過了。"],["張委員啓楷：他的情資來源不是只有自由時報，是有其他的。"],["蔡局長明彥：是，上禮拜就講過了。"],["張委員啓楷：你這個指控就更……"],["蔡局長明彥：這不是指控，這就是描述整個過程跟經過，跟委員做說明，謝謝。"],["張委員啓楷：既然這麼嚴重，又牽扯到國家安全……"],["蔡局長明彥：當然，我們要偵辦、我們要偵辦！對，我們要移送偵辦，不然我們失職……"],["張委員啓楷：要儘快、要儘快給我們，但我知道，你們有步驟在做，可是我剛才強調的，人民已經因為這樣子有不安了，好不好？"],["蔡局長明彥：對。"],["張委員啓楷：所以第一個要快，第二個，同時你要給人民真相，你一直拖，我剛剛說已經兩個禮拜了好不好？"],["蔡局長明彥：好，我們來提醒、我們來提醒，謝謝。"],["張委員啓楷：謝謝。"],["主席：希望儘快有結論，謝謝。現在休息5分鐘。","休息（10時59分）","繼續開會（11時7分）"],["主席：我們開始開會。","接下來請楊瓊瓔委員、楊瓊瓔委員、楊瓊瓔委員不在。","請洪孟楷委員上臺質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":100,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-35-32","speakers":["馬文君","陳冠廷","沈伯洋","黃國昌","徐巧芯","黃仁","羅美玲","賴士葆","林憶君","張啓楷","洪孟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習慣上都是講兩岸所以你說回你本來講的兩國嗎 精準一點 比較精準"},{"start":53.26,"end":78.691,"text":"是兩岸關係?我們下次兩岸關係是不是?當然就是兩岸關係所以有收回你本來講的兩國我本來講的事情那個不是我講的那個是廣播節目主持人在詮釋我的話所以兩國不是你說的嗎?是主持人在詮釋今天非常明確的、清準的現在是兩岸關係對,本來就是兩岸關係這是很清準的,今天定調了喔對,本來就是兩岸關係OK,好來,請決定"},{"start":83.513,"end":101.805,"text":"我們剛剛副主委那個東西講話就精準了我們要問精準的事情這個自由時報說中國媒體盯上我們這個政論節目你現在查到什麼程度有一個特定的發展陸委會主委改口了"},{"start":103.188,"end":103.668,"text":"國安局沒有調查權"},{"start":121.599,"end":135.594,"text":"那我們有相關的情資那有針對相關的情資我們移送到調查局來懲罰所以目前你是有情資你沒辦法判斷是確有歧視還是造謠對,我們沒有調查到目前沒辦法,比較低嘛對不對交給調查局調查OK,好那你這個情資一定是有來源嘛"},{"start":136.983,"end":152.022,"text":"對你的來源是怎樣?依照國家的情報工作法,我們不會透露我們的來源。你完全沒有一個來源呢?沒有,這是法律規定。這事情非常嚴重,發生事情到目前為止已經兩個禮拜了。"},{"start":153.735,"end":174.114,"text":"國安單位沒有清楚出來跟人民講到底這個事情嚴重性到什麼地方目前我們兩個很嚴重的嘛人民可能人心惶惶啊欸我做電視節目做16年欸發言有中國媒體給你腳本還頂長這兩重的事情電視的東森被你們影射的東森現在甩掉"},{"start":175.368,"end":186.13,"text":"東森電視台、關鍵時刻與劉寶傑你能不能比較明確你的源頭、你的來源是什麼?剛才沈博洋有說你要查你從源頭先查你沒有一個源頭,你的源頭就沒有"},{"start":187.918,"end":215.979,"text":"你還能夠查,造成人民人心惶惶,國安是不是有問題?第二個,我們的媒體是被,已經被中國媒體控制了嗎?這兩點都出錯了耶!假如有這樣的樣態的話,當然是一個重大的國安事件,代表台灣的自由的媒體會遭到中共的一個相關的一個制約,那有這樣的問題的話,我們一定會嚴加來查查,所以我們在有第一時間有相關的資訊之後,我們就移送到調查局來偵辦,因為國安局並沒有相關的行政調查權或司法調查權,"},{"start":217.58,"end":233.809,"text":"所謂的事情就是你剛才說的那個源頭那第三個我們沒有影射任何的媒體我們沒有影射任何的媒體沒有,所以到目前為止沒有說是東森沒有說是關鍵組合國安局的系統沒有做這樣的一個評論從來沒有,到現在為止都是肯定,你現在有沒有看了一個影射的鏡子"},{"start":234.77,"end":237.972,"text":"國家情報單位不會去泄露我們的情緒來源這是法律規定這是情報工作法第8條的規定至少一般民眾都知道一開始是哪個報紙登了"},{"start":253.464,"end":259.867,"text":"主管機關進行行政調查以及相關的檢調單位來釐清我沒有辦法替檢調單位來回答這個問題國安事件你說得這麼明確有的話確實是一個很重的問題第二個媒體的自由是不是受到侵犯你看東森水到這樣好不好"},{"start":283.43,"end":290.992,"text":"我請梁副主委,我們來講講正經一點,你剛才講講精準嘛,你以前講我的節目我之前節目時你現在也來50個議席,我曾經給過你腳本嗎?不然你聽到沒有?所有台灣的精準節目,怎麼會有腳本?你把這個當情資去辦?"},{"start":307.856,"end":317.498,"text":"有這樣的情誌當然要辦,沒有辦是國安局失職你的情誌可能違反人民的常識沒有,進入調查,進入調查之後有檢調機關來還原沒有報的話是我失職,謝謝我現在跟你講的政論節目,台灣的政論節目是非常自由的沒有腳本這個事啦"},{"start":331.684,"end":354.756,"text":"你旁邊的副主委告訴你,他長久,他以前也是想要你上節目啊所以假如有的話,我剛剛已經講了,假如有的話非常嚴重,既然有這樣的情資,我們就必須要移送司法調查所以你現在聽到的是有的嗎?等一下等一下等一下,文傑等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下等一下"},{"start":355.765,"end":363.562,"text":"有腳本：然後有中國大陸的媒體來登場對 有相關情誌的主主席不這篇第二這篇又得台灣現在有什麼人講這麼沒有常識的話違反做勝任節目的常識"},{"start":367.142,"end":384.2,"text":"對阿,所以才要調查阿,這是違議場的狀況,這確實是違議場的狀況,甚至有違法的可能我既然沒有調查權,我們就移送調查,釐清狀況所以不管有合理沒合理,有沒有違反常識,只要下來,國安局都去調查對,我們就請國安局很重要欸,國家安全欸,不合理的東西"},{"start":388.041,"end":389.182,"text":"主席主席主席主席主席"},{"start":409.433,"end":430.119,"text":"臺灣已經有多少媒體跟你講這個違反政論節目製作的原則臺灣是一個民主有發展的社會我們媒體是很受尊重的我剛剛講為什麼沒有給腳本我們臺灣的媒體人、名嘴、政治評論員是非常受到尊重的你給他簽名去打我剛才是問梁文傑文傑來我的節目我叫他練一個東西"},{"start":436.218,"end":454.889,"text":"這不侵犯我們台灣的民主自由和法治嗎?世界沒有錯所以我說連這個常識你們都沒有關起就把它送去了你可以送那你先去查我剛才就跟你講不會有腳本不會有丁賞這個事情因為這個對我們台灣的媒體是一個非常大的侮辱你想一下你現在講的事情是對台灣媒體非常大的侮辱讓檢調查清楚"},{"start":457.519,"end":483.52,"text":"我們尊重司法檢調調查的過程跟結果其他的評論我覺得還是應該留給社會公平你可以把自由時報當情誌去查我現在是提醒你這兩天以來所有的媒體在自由時報以外你看中時聯合或者網路媒體TVBS每個電視台像現在也七八十間嘛七八十間說沒有這個事情有一家說有七八十家都沒有"},{"start":484.574,"end":498.464,"text":"又牽扯到你國家安全又牽扯到我們新聞自由那你要去查之前你是不是要看這七八十件事怎麼說的你是怎麼一直去找自由時報啊想說你要找自由時報我剛才說過自由時報的報導跟我們沒有關係自由時報的報導跟我們沒有關係他們的報導我們沒有任何的你講這麼久你到底你意思有兩種喔第一種你有另外的情緒嗎"},{"start":508.991,"end":525.938,"text":"是啊,我們本來就是有另外的情資啊,我們本來就有另外的情資,我們一開始就講清楚,一開始就講清楚,我在上禮拜中報就講清楚了,我們一開始就有得到相關的情資,所以把情資送給檢調單位來立案偵辦,就是這麼清楚,自由時報的報導歸自由時報的報導,兩個沒有關係,謝謝委員﹚張啓楷上禮拜就講過了,上禮拜就講過了,上禮拜就講過了,是"},{"start":535.121,"end":559.86,"text":"上禮拜就講過了這不是指控這在描述整個過程跟經過跟委員做說明那如果既然這麼嚴重又牽扯到就是當然我們必須要偵辦我們要偵辦對我們要移送偵辦那這儘快也要儘快給我們但我知道你們有步驟在做啦可是我剛剛一定要強調啦人民已經因為這樣子有不安了好不好所以第一個要快第二個同時你要給人民真相啊你剛剛在那邊拖我剛才說的用兩星期喔"},{"start":561.802,"end":562.042,"text":"現在休息5分鐘"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}