{"error":false,"id":["154570"],"data":{"IVOD_ID":154570,"IVOD_URL":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154570","日期":"2024-07-09","會議資料":{"會議代碼":"院會-11-1-21","會議代碼:str":"第11屆第1會期第21次會議","屆":11,"會期":1,"會次":21,"臨時會會次":null,"種類":"院會","標題":"第11屆第1會期第21次會議"},"影片種類":"Clip","開始時間":"2024-07-09T09:17:23+08:00","結束時間":"2024-07-09T09:33:27+08:00","影片長度":"00:16:04","支援功能":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/21d04b5a781cb6182a828745216a4494a09fb1100d58f4bedf33c4bcbc9cfa93a950302871400d155ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"黃國昌","委員發言時間":"09:17:23 - 09:33:27","會議時間":"2024-07-09T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"第11屆第1會期第21次會議（事由：一、對行政院院長報告施政方針繼續質詢。\n二、7月5日上午9時至10時為國是論壇時間。\n三、7月9日下午1時50分至2時30分為處理臨時提案時間。）","gazette":{"lineno":66,"blocks":[["黃委員國昌：（9時17分）謝謝副院長。主席，麻煩有請行政院卓院長。"],["主席：請卓院長備詢。"],["卓院長榮泰：黃委員好。"],["黃委員國昌：卓院長好。在開始今天交通組的總質詢之前，有一件非常重要的事情，我想必須要提醒您注意，這件事情是我們的海基會董事長鄭文燦在上個週末的時候，以500萬元被法院重保交保，涉貪，從法院所發布的新聞稿非常清楚地呈現了，他的確有收受500萬元不當的金流。這件事情我之所以有必要要提醒院長注意，也要請教院長，這件事情接下來當然就進入司法機關偵辦，我們都尊重，這個沒有問題，但問題是什麼？問題是這一個土地開發弊案受賄的情節，在2017年9月的時候就已經有監聽譯文了，2017年9月的時候就找到金流了，在那個時候就已經要偵辦了，為什麼後來案子被壓下來、被簽結？這件事情很嚴重，這攸關了我國整個司法上的信譽，為什麼那個時候案子竟然無疾而終、辦不下去？沒有辦法約談、沒有辦法搜索，院長，這件事情你有沒有掌握？"],["卓院長榮泰：謝謝委員。委員心中的這個疑慮，我想社會上大家也難免有同樣的想法，我也認為一個案件，檢調單位當然有他辦案的速度、步驟、程序等等，但是在適當的時間，而且在案件沒有被……"],["黃委員國昌：隔了7年以後，你認為是適當的時間嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：我說如果在適當的時間，他可以對外或是進行收案的動作的話，對案件的釐清應該是更有幫助的。"],["黃委員國昌：目前除了鄭文燦個人所繫屬的案件偵辦以外，我今天之所以跟院長提這件事情，是牽涉到我們的法務部在處理這個案子的時候，第一個，有沒有人壓案？第二個更嚴重地，顯然是消息有洩漏，大概過了一年的時間，消息有洩漏、監聽的內容有洩漏，所以鄭文燦匆匆忙忙地把那500萬還回去了，這還有洩密有問題啊！院長，你認為需不需要徹查？"],["卓院長榮泰：徹查法務部長？"],["黃委員國昌：不是，徹查當初為什麼這個案子被簽結？為什麼沒有辦法動？當初這個案子為什麼監聽的譯文會流出去？導致鄭文燦收到風、把匯款還回去，這件事情不需要查嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：好，我剛剛說除了檢調單位的辦案程序、步驟之外，民主的臺灣應該不會有人要去壓任何一個案子，但是這件事情除了現在的法律釐清之餘，對過去的處理程序、行政上有沒有必要做檢討，我認為法務部可以去瞭解。"],["黃委員國昌：法務部有必要去做調查嘛，對不對？"],["卓院長榮泰：可以去瞭解過去的行政上有沒有任何更好的作為。"],["黃委員國昌：這件事情茲事體大，攸關全民對我國司法信譽跟人民對司法的信任，法務部有必要徹查，給全體國人一個交代，當初這件事情到底是怎麼發生的？這是我今天一開始的時候……"],["卓院長榮泰：謝謝委員。"],["黃委員國昌：因為事關重大，我覺得有必要當面跟院長提醒這件事情，我們的法務部應該要給社會一個清楚的交代！","回到今天質詢的主題，我們在討論NCC被提名人的時候，執政黨不斷地強調，基於責任一體、基於責任政治、基於行政一體的概念，NCC委員應該由行政院院長提名，這個才是責任政治的展現。我們台灣民眾黨黨團公開呼籲過好幾次，希望卓榮泰院長能夠跟社會大眾表示，對這4位人選您到底是支不支持、背不背書？因為大家都知道這4個不是你提的，你一開始上任的時候，你說你要一些時間去瞭解，我們大家都願意給你時間，那瞭解到今天，現在的行政院願不願意幫這4個NCC被提名人背書？因為這直接攸關了我們在討論行政一體、在討論責任政治的時候，我們到底要不要進行實質審查？這個是不是行政院願意背書的名單？"],["卓院長榮泰：兩個事情跟委員報告。第一個，4位委員我們在最近幾天以前有再一一跟他們詢問，當初拜託他們、提名他們的過程，現在我們如數地再向立法院做一個確認，這個要再徵求他們的意願，否則時間過這麼久。第二個，我記得應該是6月25號，大院的程序委員會曾經就這個提名案、這個同意權再做一次不予列案的決定，否則在6月底跟7月初的院會就能處理，所以這個事情在大院裡面也一直進行當中，因此現在……"],["黃委員國昌：我現在是問你的立場……"],["卓院長榮泰：我的態度……"],["黃委員國昌：你4位談完了以後，現在這4位你是不是都背書？因為這牽涉到接下來的審查程序，如果這4個被提名人有不適格狀況的話，到底是誰要負這個行政責任？我相信我這個問題非常公平。"],["卓院長榮泰：現在我的態度是，既然6月25號大院的程序委員會就曾經討論過，那就讓這個繼續進行下去……"],["黃委員國昌：所以你願意幫這4個被提名人背書嗎？基於我們剛剛所講的行政一體、責任政治，這是你願意背書的對象嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：目前我傾向就照原案進行。"],["黃委員國昌：所以這4位你都願意背書嘛？"],["卓院長榮泰：提名。"],["黃委員國昌：對啦，行政院提名是行政院長要負責嘛！"],["卓院長榮泰：好！"],["黃委員國昌：我們就是不希望把前面行政院長的鍋甩到你身上，所以善意地給你再一次機會考慮，你願意幫這4位背書，我今天在這邊負責任的跟院長報告，你只要願意背書，台灣民眾黨黨團就支持實質審查；你如果覺得你有其他的考慮要重新提名，我們也願意支持你的決定，現在就看院長你的決定是什麼？"],["卓院長榮泰：第一，因為我說大院還在進行相關的程序，而且4位被提名人的意願，我們到現在為止沒有明確地跟過去大大的不同，所以我們就按照原來的4位再請大院來進行相關程序。"],["黃委員國昌：這個問題來來回回詢答了這麼多次，我應該可以認為說你願意幫這4位背書，沒有問題吧？"],["卓院長榮泰：就延續下去。"],["黃委員國昌：是嘛？好，接下來，黨政軍退出媒體還是不是民進黨的價值？"],["卓院長榮泰：當然是。"],["黃委員國昌：當然是嘛？好，但問題是在具體的實踐上有沒有做到，我相信社會都有一把尺啦！現在到底是黨政軍退出媒體還是黨政軍就是媒體，這件事情每一個公民心裡都有一把尺，但我不喜歡談抽象的事情，我喜歡談具體的事情。","我去年回到立法院之前，我就直接公開質疑過這件事情，我們的電視新聞臺竟然可以去入主這麼大的中嘉有線電視系統，跨越了反媒體壟斷的紅線，我當初提出所有的證據，指證歷歷，那個時候也有不同黨派的立法委員在立法院關心這件事情，我們的NCC經過調查，確認當初檢舉的內容是真實無誤的，但我們大家就在懷疑一件事情，今天一個跨越反媒體壟斷紅線做了不應該做的事情的三立集團，這件事情NCC已經澈查認為確有其事，但是為什麼三立卻沒有受到任何的處罰？院長你覺得這樣對嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：是不是請NCC說明？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：跟委員說明一下，就這個案子來講，是三立股東的投資，所以這個案子我們查的，誠如剛才委員所講的，目前這個投資……"],["黃委員國昌：是三立的股東啦！就他們的董事長張榮華嘛？就講白話文就好了嘛！"],["陳主任委員耀祥：所以就是股東嘛！所以我們現在已經命其把這個相關的股份處分掉……"],["黃委員國昌：處分掉了嗎？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：中嘉現在在處分當中，我們現在已經請他們處理……"],["黃委員國昌：我先跟你釐清一個概念，做出違法行為的人是三立，或者是你要講張榮華也可以……"],["陳主任委員耀祥：股東，這應該是股東……"],["黃委員國昌：對，但為什麼他沒有得到任何處罰？這個是社會大眾的疑慮嘛？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：沒錯，因為我們目前的廣電三法裡面來講的話，對這些個人股東，廣電三法的主要規範對象是事業，不是個人，所以目前來講，沒有辦法用相關的作用法去處罰他……"],["黃委員國昌：你認為這種行為應不應該處罰？明明就知道紅線在那裡，明明就知道NCC的附款不允許做這件事，還執意去做，還欺騙NCC！被抓到了以後卻沒有任何處罰，這樣對嗎？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：問題是說在法律授權上我們現在沒有辦法……"],["黃委員國昌：現在我問你的是，你認為這個行為該不該處罰？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：該處罰，是要有法律依據。"],["黃委員國昌：該處罰嘛？好！這件事情你講過了，所以我今天特別請教你，你說要修衛廣法。"],["陳主任委員耀祥：對。"],["黃委員國昌：我等了好幾個月，草案在哪裡？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：草案還在我們會裡面。"],["黃委員國昌：什麼時候可以生出來？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：委員，我們現在基本上來講是在換屆當中，所以你說什麼時候可以……"],["黃委員國昌：所以這個是下一屆NCC委員的鍋就對了？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：不是鍋的問題，而是這個本來是個延續的……"],["黃委員國昌：這個事情拖得越久，不就讓這一些媒體大亨可以逍遙越久？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：沒有要拖的問題，而是說……"],["黃委員國昌：什麼時候可以提出來？要等下一屆NCC委員才知道，來！請教院長，您認為這麼重要的法案什麼時候應該提出來？"],["卓院長榮泰：我會先瞭解現在通傳會進行的草案內容，交給下一屆新的NCC委員的時候，我們會把這個列為優先，請他……"],["黃委員國昌：優先法案嘛？我希望下個會期優先法案，因為我們也有提出衛廣法的修法，我們除了要去制裁這一種明知道紅線在哪裡，跨越紅線對他卻毫無處罰的這種惡質媒體之外，我們還希望股權要透明、補助要透明、財務要透明、要接受社會公眾的監督，這三個原則院長支不支持？"],["卓院長榮泰：大的原則當然是往這個方向，再蒐集更多各方的意見，我們把它認為一個比較完善的修法……"],["黃委員國昌：沒關係啦！院長承諾這個是優先法案，我們下個會期拭目以待。賴清德總統說打詐、掃黑、肅貪是政府的重要任務，院長同不同意？"],["卓院長榮泰：當然是，我們在治安會報的時候就提出這樣的一個決心。"],["黃委員國昌：好！但大家現在覺得很困惑的是什麼？被查獲害人無數、不法詐欺吸金所得二十幾億的王牌交易所，結果竟然跟三立集團在洗錢的網絡當中有一個萓篆公司，不僅是設立在三立的大樓裡面，甚至什麼？這家公司也不只是跟三立合資，它的監察人還是三立派的。我們過去在討論打詐的時候，是說網路上有很多不實的資訊，大家不要相信那不實的資訊，要求網路平臺業者要去除不實的資訊，結果現在什麼？在幫詐欺集團散播假新聞，讓無辜的社會大眾去買那些垃圾的虛擬貨幣，不法獲利二十幾億的，竟然是領我們NCC執照的有線電視新聞臺。院長，你覺得這件事情嚴不嚴重，屬不屬於現在的政府要嚴厲打詐的對象？"],["卓院長榮泰：日前媒體有揭露這樣的事實，依法辦理……"],["黃委員國昌：這不是媒體揭露啦！這個是我檢舉的啦！"],["卓院長榮泰：那謝謝委員的辛苦，我們會依照法律來處理這件事情，也許依照我們的打詐……"],["黃委員國昌：會依照法律來處理，怎麼處理？依照什麼法律、怎麼處理？講清楚，不要講空話，依照法律處理，我當然贊成嘛！但人民要看到的是什麼，人民要看到政府的打詐不是口號，是行動，你要依據什麼法律、怎麼處理？請教院長。"],["卓院長榮泰：現在當然法務部也好，內政部也好，他們都有相關的來處理這些事情，整個過程當中，現在在進行當中，我也不宜多講啊！"],["黃委員國昌：我現在跟院長報告一件事，不是叫進行當中，這叫已經進行結束了，檢察官已經起訴了，偵查終結了，在起訴的犯罪事實裡，提到了這個萓篆公司在詐欺、洗錢的網絡當中，但是提到了這個公司在詐欺、洗錢的網絡當中，然後呢？然後就沒有然後了，這是為什麼……"],["卓院長榮泰：還有法院的程序進行。"],["黃委員國昌：這是為什麼我要公……沒有起訴，怎麼會有法院的程序，院長，你也幫幫忙！檢察官要起訴，法院才能審判；檢察官沒有處理，法院要判什麼啊！"],["卓院長榮泰：我說有法律的程序要進行。"],["黃委員國昌：我希望法務部要追查下去，但我為什麼在交通組處理這件事情？這個是有線電視新聞臺，這是拿到國家特許的耶！NCC要怎麼處理？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：跟委員說明，我們現在在處理當中了，在行政調查，這有沒有剛才委員所講的，這些個案裡面來講的話，有沒有事實查證……"],["黃委員國昌：我就直接跟你講嘛！"],["陳主任委員耀祥：或是認為變成有所謂詐欺的手段，我們要調查清楚。"],["黃委員國昌：三立政論節目跟詐團的假新聞平臺強強聯手，這個Potato Media是詐欺集團裡面網絡的一份子，這不是我說的……"],["陳主任委員耀祥：這是網路新聞。"],["黃委員國昌：這個是檢察官說的，這是內容農場，這個是整個詐騙集團他們成立的公司，詐騙集團成立的內容農場跟三立合作，這件事情NCC要查多久？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：我們目前正在調查當中。"],["黃委員國昌：還需要多久？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：這個要看個案的具體狀況，我們希望儘快把它處理出來。"],["黃委員國昌：儘快是多久？我只需要一個時間啦！這很複雜嗎？證據這麼明確了……"],["陳主任委員耀祥：委員，剛好這個……"],["黃委員國昌：還是要以拖待變！"],["陳主任委員耀祥：沒有、沒有以拖待變，剛好我們在換屆當中，我們是希望儘快去處理……"],["黃委員國昌：所以是下一屆的鍋嗎？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：不是下一屆的鍋的問題，我們調查總是需要時間。"],["黃委員國昌：你卸任以前可不可以處理？我只需要這個答案，你卸任以前能不能處理？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：我們已經在進行當中，我只能這樣講。"],["卓院長榮泰：好，謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝黃委員。","下一位請羅明才委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":182,"meet_id":"院會-11-1-21","speakers":["江啟臣","王定宇","黃國昌","羅明才","吳琪銘","葉元之","邱若華","楊曜","羅智強","黃健豪","盧縣一","蘇清泉","林國成","李昆澤","羅廷瑋","陳培瑜","林月琴","游顥","王正旭","林淑芬","涂權吉"],"page_start":93,"meetingDate":["2024-07-09"],"gazette_id":"1136601","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1136601_00005","1136601_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期第21次會議紀錄","content":"施政質詢\n對行政院院長報告施政方針繼續質詢─ 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就討論過,那就讓這個會議繼續的進行下去。所以你願意幫這四個被提名人背書嗎?基於我們剛剛所講的行政議題責任政治,這是你願意背書的對象嗎?目前我傾向就照原案來做進行。所以這四位你都願意背書嗎?"},{"start":401.914,"end":402.136,"text":"提名。"},{"start":403.923,"end":431.573,"text":"行政院提名是行政院長要負責嘛我們就是不希望把前面行政院長的鍋甩到你身上所以給你善意的給你再一次的機會考慮你願意幫這四位背書我今天在這邊負責任的跟院長報告臺灣民眾黨黨團你只要願意背書我們就支持實質審查你如果覺得你有其他的考慮要重新提名我們也願意支持你的決定現在就看院長你的決定是什麼"},{"start":432.486,"end":432.606,"text":"接下來"},{"start":459.774,"end":471.245,"text":"黨戰軍退出媒體還是不是民進黨的價值當然是當然是嘛好但問題是在具體的實踐上有沒有做到我相信社會都有一把尺啦"},{"start":472.242,"end":491.449,"text":"現在到底是黨政軍退出媒體還是黨政軍就是媒體這件事情每一個公民心裡都有一把尺但我不喜歡談抽象的事情我喜歡談具體的事情我去年回到立法院之前我就直接公開質疑過這件事情我們"},{"start":493.393,"end":508.198,"text":"有我們的電視新聞台竟然可以去入主可以去入主這麼大的中加有線電視系統跨越了反媒體壟斷的紅線我當初提出所有的證據"},{"start":509.383,"end":526.526,"text":"指正立例那個時候也有不同黨派的立法委員在立法院關心這件事情我們的NCC經過調查確認當初檢舉的內容是真實無誤的是真實無誤的但我們大家就在懷疑一件事情"},{"start":527.347,"end":544.844,"text":"今天一個跨越反媒體壟斷紅線做了不應該做的事情的三立集團為什麼這件事情NCC已經徹查認為確有其事但是三立卻沒有受到任何的處罰院長你覺得這樣對嗎"},{"start":546.397,"end":567.038,"text":"是不是請NCC說明?好,跟委員說明一下齁,這個案子來講是3億的股東的投資,所以這個案子我們查,就程度剛才委員所講的,他目前這個投資的部分...不是3億的股東啦,就他們的董事長張榮華嘛,就講白話文就好了嘛。所以就是股東嘛,所以我們現在已經命期把這個相關的這個股份處分掉嘛。"},{"start":567.338,"end":581.531,"text":"處分掉了嗎?我先給你釐清一個概念做出違法行為的人是三立或者是你要講張榮華也可以但為什麼他沒有得到任何處罰?"},{"start":582.512,"end":582.672,"text":"你認為這種行為應不應該處罰?"},{"start":600.794,"end":626.993,"text":"明明就知道紅線在那裡明明就知道NCC的付款不允許做這件事還執意去做還欺騙NCC被抓到了以後沒有任何處罰這樣對嗎問題是說在法律授權上我們現在沒有辦法現在我問你的是你認為這個行為該不該處罰該處罰但是要有法律依據好這件事情你講過了所以我今天特別請教你你說"},{"start":628.41,"end":647.607,"text":"要修衛廣法。我等了好幾個月。草案在哪裡?草案還在我們會裡面。什麼時候可以申得出來?委員我們現在基本上來講是換屆當中啦。所以說你說所以這個是下一屆NCC委員的鍋就對了?不是鍋的問題而是這個我們本來是可以延續的這個事情拖得越久"},{"start":648.618,"end":662.394,"text":"就不就讓這些媒體大亨可以逍遙越久。沒有要拖的問題而是說什麼時候可以提出來下一屆NCC委員才知道來請教院長院長您認為這麼重要的法案什麼時候應該提出來"},{"start":664.258,"end":692.823,"text":"我會先了解現在通常會進行的草案內容那交下一屆的新政經濟委員的時候我們會把這個列為優先請他優先法案嘛我希望下個會期優先法案因為我們也有提出衛廣法的修法我們除了要去制裁這一種明知道紅線在哪裡跨越紅線對他卻毫無處罰這種惡質的媒體之外我們還希望股權要透明"},{"start":694.16,"end":713.234,"text":"補助要透明,財務要透明,要接受社會公眾的監督,這三個原則院長是不是支持?這個大的原則當然是往這個方向,那再收集更多各方的意見,我們把它弄為一個比較完善的修法。沒關係啊,院長承諾這是優先法案,我們下個會期啊,拭目以待。"},{"start":714.438,"end":738.428,"text":"賴清德總統說打詐、找黑、樹攤是政府的重要任務。院長同不同意?當然是,我們在資安會報的時候就提出這樣的一個決心。好,但大家現在覺得很困惑的是什麼?被查獲的害人無數、不法詐欺吸金所的20幾億的王牌交易所"},{"start":739.503,"end":757.478,"text":"結果竟然跟我們的三立集團在洗錢的網絡當中有一個遺傳公司不僅是設立在三立的大樓裡面甚至這家公司也不只是跟三立合資他的監察人還是三立派的"},{"start":759.09,"end":781.521,"text":"我們過去在討論打詐的時候是說網路上有很多不實的資訊大家不要相信那不實的資訊要求網路平台業者要去除不實的資訊結果現在什麼在幫詐欺集團散播假新聞讓無辜的社會大眾去買那些垃圾的虛擬貨幣"},{"start":783.274,"end":785.375,"text":"這不是媒體揭露啦 這個是我檢舉的啦"},{"start":805.694,"end":829.05,"text":"那謝謝委員的辛苦 那我們會依照法律來處理這件事情我依照法律來處理怎麼處理 依照什麼法律怎麼處理 講清楚 不要講空話依照法律處理我當然贊成嘛 但人民要看到的是什麼 人民要看到政府不是打詐不是口號是行動 你要依據什麼法律怎麼處理 請教委員長"},{"start":830.536,"end":856.651,"text":"現在當然法務部也好內政部也好他們都有相關的來處理這些事情那整個過程當中現在在進行當中我也不宜多講阿我現在跟院長報告一件事啦不是叫進行當中這叫已經進行結束了檢察官已經起訴了偵查終結了在起訴的犯罪事實裡提到了這一段公司在這個詐欺洗錢的網絡當中"},{"start":858.322,"end":885.633,"text":"但是提到了這個公司在這個詐欺洗錢的網絡當中然後呢?然後就沒有然後這是為什麼?這是為什麼我要沒有起訴怎麼會有法院的程序?院長你幫幫忙檢察官要起訴法院才能審判檢察官沒有處理法院要判什麼啊?我希望喔法務部這要追查下去但我為什麼在交通組處理這件事情這個是有線電視新聞台"},{"start":887.43,"end":909.895,"text":"這是拿到國家特許的欸!NCC要怎麼處理?跟委員說明我們現在在處理當中的在行政調查這個有沒有跟委員所講的在個案裡面來講的話有沒有事實查證或是認為變成有所謂詐欺的這個手段這個三密政論節目跟詐團的假新聞平台強強聯手"},{"start":911.875,"end":929.867,"text":"這個Potato Media是詐欺集團裡面網絡的一份子,這不是我說的。這個是檢察官說的。這是內容農場。這個是整個詐騙集團他們成立的公司。詐騙集團成立的內容農場跟三立合作,這件事情NCC要查多久?還需要多久?"},{"start":937.478,"end":937.498,"text":"謝謝黃委員"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}