{"error":false,"id":["154575"],"data":{"IVOD_ID":154575,"IVOD_URL":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154575","日期":"2024-07-09","會議資料":{"會議代碼":"院會-11-1-21","會議代碼:str":"第11屆第1會期第21次會議","屆":11,"會期":1,"會次":21,"臨時會會次":null,"種類":"院會","標題":"第11屆第1會期第21次會議"},"影片種類":"Clip","開始時間":"2024-07-09T10:49:12+08:00","結束時間":"2024-07-09T11:05:01+08:00","影片長度":"00:15:49","支援功能":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/21d04b5a781cb61851195b24b7234cf5a09fb1100d58f4be0e42658b4167efd58317b6e95026e3165ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"羅智強","委員發言時間":"10:49:12 - 11:05:01","會議時間":"2024-07-09T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"第11屆第1會期第21次會議（事由：一、對行政院院長報告施政方針繼續質詢。\n二、7月5日上午9時至10時為國是論壇時間。\n三、7月9日下午1時50分至2時30分為處理臨時提案時間。）","gazette":{"lineno":520,"blocks":[["羅委員智強：（10時49分）有請卓院長。"],["主席：請卓院長備詢。"],["卓院長榮泰：羅委員好。"],["羅委員智強：院長好。賴清德總統曾說要不分黨派，無論何人，只要涉及非法，檢調都應該查辦，毋枉毋縱。這句話我認同，所以在這邊我要先肯定鄭銘謙部長，因為鄭文燦涉貪案已經案經7年，邱太三不敢辦，然後蔡清祥不敢辦，最後鄭銘謙當部長之後，檢察機關終於動起來了。但我還是要提醒一下，就是希望我們的院長、法務部長跟檢察官不要犯三個選擇性的錯誤。雖然今天鄭文燦涉貪案已經開始辦了，但我還是要跟院長就教一下，有些東西我看不太懂，我常常覺得民進黨的首長、縣市長涉及貪瀆案，似乎有一個特權列車在裡面保護著他，先不講我剛剛前面講的，7年的案子好不容易等到賴清德總統上任了才解封，那前面的部長是幹嘛？吃閒飯，還是在吃案、壓案。第二個，我也很納悶，過去不管是辦高虹安的案子、辦楊文科的案子、辦林姿妙的案子，哇！不得了，兵分十八路、二十八路、三十八路、四十八路，檢調大舉搜索啊！鄭文燦不用耶！好好的沒事耶！能不能請教院長為什麼會有這樣的差別待遇啊？"],["卓院長榮泰：我還是尊重檢調單位專業的調查……"],["羅委員智強：對啊！你尊重啦！"],["卓院長榮泰：不論是哪一個人或是哪幾個人，不分黨派、不分個人。"],["羅委員智強：謝謝你的尊重。不只如此，你會發現基本上我們的……當然這跟法務部也沒有關係，對不對？聲押的結果呢？送錢的收押，收錢的不押，我覺得鄭文燦真的是桃園經營得蠻好，連桃園地方法院，我看他經營都不錯了，所以有一些特權的待遇在鄭文燦身上就看到了它發生，但不管怎麼樣，今天我給鄭部長一個肯定，至少顯示你沒有壓案、吃案，至少此時此刻。但是我接下來也要請我們的行政團隊、請法務部跟檢察官可能要注意的一件事，事實上，鄭文燦過去所涉及的疑案，不只是林口工五擴大用地，鄭文燦過去有很多的案子，我也希望能夠一併好好的瞭解一下，我曾經說過全臺灣我最佩服的民進黨縣市長就是鄭文燦，因為鄭文燦曾經有天地水火四大政績，我不知道院長有沒有聽過鄭文燦的豐功偉業，天地水火四大政績是哪四大，你知道嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：請委員指教。"],["羅委員智強：我告訴你啊！第一個天政績，桃園八德運動中心蓋完，馬上一個三級地震天花板塌光光，被笑稱是所謂最佳的地震體驗館，我請問一下，司法單位有沒有去瞭解一下有沒有偷工減料？到現在有沒有立案調查或是去瞭解一下，有沒有偷工減料？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這部分我們尊重整個桃園地檢署的偵辦，因為我們法務部也不參與……"],["羅委員智強：謝謝你的尊重，起碼這次你尊重的結果，鄭文燦7年前的案子終於被辦了，所以部長，我今天是特別尊重你，你講的話我都接受。","第二個，什麼叫做地政績？平鎮的地下停車場在2020年4月蓋完就塌了，造成一死二傷的慘劇，中間有沒有偷工減料、人謀不臧？也拜託我們尊重地檢署的法務部長，你也是曾司我們司法正義的守門人，我也希望我們的檢察官也能夠好好瞭解一下。","第三個，水政績也很亮眼，楊梅區公所在2021年8月初，行政大樓因為颱風外圍環流降雨影響地下水位上升，導致結構體上浮45公分，形成楊梅水上飄的奇景，中間有沒有偷工減料，有沒有人謀不臧？","再來是什麼呢？火政績，蘆竹美福倉儲火在燒，連燒二十幾天，也創了臺灣火災燒的日數最久的一個紀錄，也是在鄭文燦市長的任內啊！所以我要講，今天不是辦這7年前的舊案，要辦就通通辦。第二個，我也想請教一下，當然外界有很多所謂的政治陰謀論，有人也擔心今天辦這個案子，7年前的這個案子到現在辦，可能會雷聲大雨點小，請問院長，你對於我們的檢察機關有沒有信心，會不會雷聲大雨點小？部長。"],["卓院長榮泰：除了尊重之外，就是按照證據跟事實來辦案，這個才重要。"],["羅委員智強：如果說今天鄭文燦涉貪事實明確，鄭部長有肩膀、有擔當來做檢察官的後循，讓他查辦到底嗎？有沒有肩膀？"],["鄭部長銘謙：檢察官依法偵辦，我們希望就是詳細調查。"],["羅委員智強：你有沒有這個肩膀當檢察官的後盾？"],["鄭部長銘謙：我們希望檢察官能夠勿枉勿縱，依法詳細調查，對於這個偵查的案件，我不能夠也沒辦法去指導。"],["羅委員智強：我講得很簡單，對於檢察官勇於任事，你作為法務部長、作為行政院長，就要擔當我們檢察官的後盾。","我就講另外一件事，這位檢察官辦了鄭文燦的案子之後，現在不得了了，變渣男了你有沒有發現？部長有沒有發現？媒體開始去挖他的私生活，開始去打擊他。我要跟部長跟院長說，勇於任事的檢察官不分黨派，今天偵辦弊案，行政團隊就要給予支持，也請部長今天能當檢察官的後盾。","當然還是有一件事，我也不希望今天是雷聲大雨點小，外面有很多人在講，因為鄭文燦在過去跟賴清德總統有諸多恩怨，賴清德總統跟鄭文燦在楚魏之爭當中，有很多宮廷的糾結。因為鄭文燦桃園雖然選舉成績不理想，但是最近新北市長民調高，然後接下來打他一槍，把他的新北市長打掉之後，然後雙方各退一步，接下來的弊案就不了了之。我希望到最後不要變成政治交換啦！可不可以？"],["卓院長榮泰：委員，我認為絕對不要用這種不正確的邏輯來看一個司法的案件。"],["羅委員智強：謝謝，我希望這個邏輯不正確，但我們就等著看，看看鄭文燦的案子最後會不會走向這個不正確的結果？","第三個我要講，我講的第三個選擇性，抱歉，不是只有鄭文燦案，過去民進黨8年執政真的是弊絕風清，原來就是蓋牌效應造成的，不辦就沒弊案了啊！7年前的案子到現在才開始，還要等賴清德上任，新官上任三把火，開始要辦了，我是肯定啦！今天不分黨派辦弊案，賴清德總統我肯定他，但是不要選擇性，不要跟我講說只有鄭文燦，林智堅的新竹棒球場，請問到現在的進度是什麼？部長你知道嗎？不要再跟我講尊重地檢署檢察官了！你對通案也該有瞭解的責任啦！"],["鄭部長銘謙：凡民眾有告發，檢察官就會依法偵辦，這部分本部的立場我們是不會去檢討、干涉、介入案子的處理。"],["羅委員智強：我告訴你，石沈大海，我直接跟你講，我比你更瞭解，沒消沒息沒下文。第三個，另外一位現在貴為民進黨秘書長的林右昌，我來跟大家講，你有沒有發現東岸停車場的問題，大日公司向基隆市政府承租商場，然後當二房東將商場經營權包給NET，每月收租250萬元，每年收租3,000萬元，規避商場全年總營業額7億元未計入契約會計營收報表，造成8年經營權權利金是0元，政府短收近25億元。還發生大日公司跟基隆市政府還沒有決議增建前，就急急忙忙準備增建。被先斬後奏之後，結果基隆市政府遲遲沒有去申報產權，差點讓公共財產被用來圖利民間企業。最後大日公司被查出在其他同性質的案件當中爆發弊案被解約，民間訴訟歸民間訴訟，即便涉及非常多公權力的弊病，可是到現在為止也有沒有看到檢方有任何人動起來啊！","事實上法院之前已經有很明確的地方法院判決，已經講基隆市政府與大日公司約定，由大日公司出資，系增建物完成後闢為商場，由基隆市政府取得。結果你可以看到，還有包括增建部分納入後續委託的營運範圍，並由大日公司營運，判定NET的主富公司，就是判定大日的求償是敗訴的，還謝國樑公道。這牽扯兩件事情，我在這邊也要提醒部長，不要民進黨的縣市長遇到任何爭議的東西就有特殊待遇啊，像鄭文燦可以壓案7年現在才開始動起來，那林智堅呢？那林右昌呢？請問要不要瞭解一下，為什麼不登記產權？為什麼當初留下這麼大的一個問題，讓後面基隆市政府必須跟NET公司對簿公堂，不就是因為裡面涉及的疑雲重重嗎？所以這一個，我也希望我們部長、院長好好的去查辦一下。","接下來我想請教一下院長，我們臺南市區漁會理事長林士傑被槍擊身亡一案，請問目前掌握的狀況如何？"],["卓院長榮泰：報告委員，早上我們已經邀集內政部跟法務部部長、警政署長以及刑事警察局的局長，就這個案件再做一次的會報，現在我們不鎖定任何的動機，就是讓他能夠廣泛地去調查，也不排除任何的可能，現在專案小組已經啟動，有若干的掌握，但是現在都不便對外說。"],["羅委員智強：我跟院長、部長說，態度更積極一點，你上面有一個眼睛看著，你知道誰在看著你嗎？賴清德在看著你。今天林士傑在不久之前才捲入正副議長的賄選案、恐嚇案被訴，女兒是民進黨現任的市議員，過去你看到臺南市爐渣案、光電案，陳宗彥、陳凱凌接受性招待案、正副議長賄選案，再加上這一次正副議長賄選案的重大關係人竟然被槍殺，我覺得民進黨很對不起臺南人欸！民進黨臺南執政這麼久，政風敗壞、弊案疑雲重重，現在還發生槍擊命案，請問這是民進黨長期治理下的臺南嗎？請問這是賴清德總統治理過的臺南嗎？今天臺南這樣的事情，是民進黨對不起臺南人啊！多年下來，臺南被經營變成是一個犯罪城市嗎？我不知道院長你怎麼看？你會覺得賴清德很關切這件事情嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：總統關切所有地方的治安問題，我認為臺南地方檢警單位要加油！"],["羅委員智強：對，沒錯！"],["卓院長榮泰：我們也要求中央部會要直接對臺南這個事件特別特別的重視，希望能夠儘快釐清出來，哪裡有缺失，哪裡就改善。"],["羅委員智強：好，我希望院長這句話不是空口白話。"],["卓院長榮泰：不會。"],["羅委員智強：希望能夠真正努力去做、去執行，不然說真的，臺南這些事情，我覺得民進黨賴清德顏面也掛不住啊！終究是他主政過的臺南市，這顏面怎麼會掛得住呢？","我接下來請教你一個問題，您覺得民進黨執政8年，司改成績如何？"],["卓院長榮泰：當然有待努力。"],["羅委員智強：有待努力，非常謙虛，不錯。事實上台灣民意基金會今年4月公布的民調，司法改革是最後一名，只有35.6%滿意，不滿意高達54.6%。我想請教一下，目前我們可以看到其中司法最不讓人家信任的有一件事情，就是偵查不公開沒有落實。院長，你有掌握到吧？我們偵查不公開，我不要講你沒有落實，我就講別的事情，講現在的事情，林姿妙案、高虹安案跟楊文科案，乃至於現在鄭文燦案，很不好意思，你有沒有發現一個問題？所有案情全部媒體都報光光欸！院長，你有注意到吧？部長有注意到吧？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這部分是偵查不公開的，我們在5月30號也召開了一個精進的研商會……"],["羅委員智強：我幫你講結論，因為我時間也沒有了啦！"],["鄭部長銘謙：這部分……"],["羅委員智強：7,255件被檢討的案子裡面，檢察官起訴0件，行政處分十幾件啦！偵查不公開，變成偵查大公開，拜託我現在也要求修法法制化，希望兩位支持啦！謝謝。"],["鄭部長銘謙：這部分其實我們會把不成立、不處分的也要公開簡要的原因，不是只有單純一個數據，這個請委員放心，我們是認為沒有再修法的必要。"],["羅委員智強：沒有關係，我們慢慢討論，謝謝。"],["卓院長榮泰：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝羅委員，也謝謝卓院長。","報告院會，司法及法制組之質詢已詢答完畢，休息5分鐘，休息之後進行社會福利及衛生環境組之質詢，現在休息。","休息（11時5分）","繼續開會（11時10分）"]],"agenda":{"page_end":182,"meet_id":"院會-11-1-21","speakers":["江啟臣","王定宇","黃國昌","羅明才","吳琪銘","葉元之","邱若華","楊曜","羅智強","黃健豪","盧縣一","蘇清泉","林國成","李昆澤","羅廷瑋","陳培瑜","林月琴","游顥","王正旭","林淑芬","涂權吉"],"page_start":93,"meetingDate":["2024-07-09"],"gazette_id":"1136601","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1136601_00005","1136601_0000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有沒有肩膀"},{"start":371.472,"end":377.655,"text":"對於我講的很簡單對於檢察官勇於認識你作為法務部長作為行政院長就要擔當我們檢察官的後盾我就講另外一件事啊"},{"start":397.183,"end":410.862,"text":"這位檢察官辦了鄭文燦的案子之後,現在不得了了,變渣男了,你有沒有發現?部長有沒有發現?媒體開始去挖他的私生活,開始去打擊他。我要跟部長跟院長說,"},{"start":412.628,"end":428.27,"text":"有餘認識的檢察官不分黨派今天偵辦弊案行政團隊就要給予支持也請部長今天能當檢察官的後盾當然還是有一件事我也不希望今天是雷聲大雨點小"},{"start":429.346,"end":443.034,"text":"外面很多人在想因為鄭文燦對不對在過去跟賴清德總統有諸多恩怨賴清德總統跟鄭文燦在處位之爭當中有很多的宮廷的糾結"},{"start":444.417,"end":446.339,"text":"我希望不要到處變政治交換啦,可不可以?"},{"start":465.433,"end":493.574,"text":"我認為絕對不要用這種不正確的邏輯來看一個司法的案件。謝謝,我希望這個邏輯不正確,但我們就等著看。看看鄭文燦的案子最後走向你這個不正確的結果。第三個我要講,我講第三個選擇性,抱歉,不是只有鄭文燦案。過去民進黨八年執政真的是避絕風輕,原來就是蓋牌效應造成的。不判就沒閉案啊。"},{"start":495.256,"end":516.453,"text":"七年前的案子到現在才開始還要賴清德總上任新官上任三把火開始要辦了我是肯定啦今天不分黨派辦B案賴清德總統我肯定他但是不要選擇性不要跟我講說只有鄭文燦林志堅新竹棒球場請問到現在進度是什麼部長你知道嗎"},{"start":518.712,"end":545.302,"text":"你不要再跟我講尊重地檢署檢察官了啦!你對通案也該有了解的責任啦!反正有民眾有告發那個檢測就會依法偵辦那這部分我們本部的立場我們是不會去...我告訴你!磁塵大海我直接跟你講比你更了解沒銷沒洗啦沒下文啦!第二個第三個我們另外一位現在貴為民進黨秘書長的林佑昌我來跟大家講"},{"start":546.854,"end":566.981,"text":"你也發現東岸停車場的問題齁有沒有發現這個大日公司齁像基隆市政府齁曾租商場然後將惡房東將商場經營權包給Net每月收租250萬元每年收租3000萬元規避商場全年總營業額7億元未記錄契約會計營收報表造成8年經營權權利金是0元"},{"start":576.383,"end":584.78,"text":"政府短收近25億元還發生大日公司跟基隆市政府還沒有決議徵件前就急急忙忙準備徵件"},{"start":585.987,"end":613.701,"text":"被先斬後奏之後結果呢基隆市政府遲遲沒有去申報產權差點讓公共財產被用來圖利民間企業最後大日公司被查出在其他同性質的案件當中爆發弊案被解約民間訴訟歸民間訴訟啊但即便涉及非常多公權力的弊病可是到現在為止我也沒有看到我們的檢方有任何動起來啊"},{"start":614.693,"end":637.399,"text":"事實上法院之前已經還明確的一個地方法院的判決,已經講基隆市政府與大日公司約定由大日公司出資,細增建物完成後批為商場,由基隆市政府取得。結果呢,你會看到還有包括增建部分納入後續委託營運範圍由大日公司營運,判定"},{"start":637.919,"end":639.48,"text":"那林志堅呢?那林佑昌呢?"},{"start":666.918,"end":688.785,"text":"請問要不要了解一下為什麼不登記產權為什麼今天當初留下這麼大的一個問題讓後面基隆市政府必須跟內的公司對簿公帑這不就是今天裡面涉及的疑雲重重嗎這個我也希望我們的部長能夠好好的我們院長好好的去查辦一下接下來我就要講我想請教一下院長"},{"start":693.151,"end":701.626,"text":"我們這個臺南市區與會理事長林士傑被槍擊身亡一案。請問目前掌握狀況如何?"},{"start":703.17,"end":727.827,"text":"報告委員早上我們已經邀集內政部跟法務部部長警政署長以及刑事警察局的局長就這個案件再做一次的匯報那現在我們不鎖定任何的動機就是讓他能夠廣泛的去調查那也不排除任何的可能那現在專案小組已經在啟動有若干的掌握但是現在都不變對外說我跟院長說跟部長說態度更積極"},{"start":731.564,"end":746.832,"text":"你上面有一個眼睛看著你,你知道誰在看著你嗎?賴清德在看著你。今天林士傑在不久之前才捲入政府議長的會選案、恐嚇案背書。女兒是民進黨現任的市議員。"},{"start":749.738,"end":778.81,"text":"那過去你看到台南市盧渣案、光電案、陳宗彥、陳凱琳接受性招待案、政府議長會選案再加上這一次政府議長會選案重大關係人竟然被槍殺我覺得民進黨很對不起台南人耶民進黨台南執政這麼久陣風敗壞、弊案雲雲、疑雲重重然後現在還發生什麼呢槍擊命案"},{"start":780.017,"end":781.678,"text":"總統關鍵所有地方的治安問題我認為臺南的地方檢警單位要加油"},{"start":811.017,"end":836.616,"text":"我們也要求我們中央部會要直接對臺南這個事件特別特別的重視希望能夠儘快的能夠釐清出來之後哪裏有缺失哪裏就改善我希望這個院長這句話不是空口白話希望能夠真正努力來去做到執行不然說真的臺南這些事情真的我覺得你民進黨耐心得你連面也掛不住啊"},{"start":837.81,"end":839.13,"text":"實際上在這個臺灣民意基金會今年4月公布的民調"},{"start":861.789,"end":889.144,"text":"司法改革是最後一名,只有35.6%滿意,不滿意高達第1,54.6%。那我想請教一下,目前來說的話,我們可以看到就是,其中司法最不讓人家信任有一件事情就是,掙扎不公開,沒有落實嘛。院長你有掌握到吧?我們掙扎不公開,我不要講沒有落實,我就講別的事情,講現在的事情。"},{"start":890.182,"end":904.781,"text":"林志妙案﹚這個高雄灣案﹚跟楊文科案﹚乃至於現在鄭文燦案很不好意思啊你有沒有發現一個問題所有案情全部媒體都逗光光了耶院長你有注意到吧部長有注意到吧"},{"start":906.833,"end":928.192,"text":"這部分是偵查不公開的,我們是在5月30號也召開的一個精進的研修會。我幫你講結論啦,因為我時間也沒有了啦。那這部分齁。7255件被檢討案子裡面檢察官起訴零件啦,行政處分十幾件。偵查不公開變偵查大公開,拜託我現在也要求修法法制化,希望兩位。"},{"start":931.135,"end":949.292,"text":"響鐘"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}