{"error":false,"id":["154582"],"data":{"IVOD_ID":154582,"IVOD_URL":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154582","日期":"2024-07-09","會議資料":{"會議代碼":"院會-11-1-21","會議代碼:str":"第11屆第1會期第21次會議","屆":11,"會期":1,"會次":21,"臨時會會次":null,"種類":"院會","標題":"第11屆第1會期第21次會議"},"影片種類":"Clip","開始時間":"2024-07-09T14:30:49+08:00","結束時間":"2024-07-09T14:46:46+08:00","影片長度":"00:15:57","支援功能":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/21d04b5a781cb618fa32655814202f69a09fb1100d58f4be9d3d28c55f1f245baa0123905ad953be5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林國成","委員發言時間":"14:30:49 - 14:46:46","會議時間":"2024-07-09T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"第11屆第1會期第21次會議（事由：一、對行政院院長報告施政方針繼續質詢。\n二、7月5日上午9時至10時為國是論壇時間。\n三、7月9日下午1時50分至2時30分為處理臨時提案時間。）","gazette":{"lineno":2,"blocks":[["林委員國成：（14時31分）謝謝主席，請卓院長還有勞動部何部長。"],["主席：請卓院長還有勞動部部長備詢。"],["卓院長榮泰：林委員好。"],["林委員國成：你好。院長、部長，我回想十幾年前一碗牛肉麵的事，我對卓榮泰秘書長印象深刻，也就是本席在做立法委員主任的時候，十幾年前你在當秘書長的時候，一碗牛肉麵你付錢了，我永遠記住你的為人跟你所作所為。所以你沒有發現到每一次我在質詢，對你是彬彬有禮尊敬有加嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：我改天再去吃牛肉麵。"],["林委員國成：雖然是一碗牛肉麵，但是有一點感情的存在。"],["卓院長榮泰：謝謝委員。"],["林委員國成：但是我感覺到很奇怪，我認識的卓榮泰院長，在我的心目中，我們國會五法通過以後，記者在問你，你還一句「以身試法」，這一點我心裡面很難過。其實我看得出來從頭到現在，你的團隊跟你本人都不是鬥雞耶！你看立法委員在跟你對答的時候，我們彼此之間都非常尊重的，所以院長，「以身試法」這四個字，其實不要用啦！因為以你的能力，以立法委員對於你的尊敬程度，「以身試法」這四個字不要用，因為我認識的卓榮泰，他不是鬥雞型，你的團隊也不是鬥雞型！院長，我們說實在的，於公於私我給你建議，沒有那麼恐怖啦！"],["卓院長榮泰：報告委員，也有委員提醒我，以身試法可以是考試的「試」，也可以是適用的「適」，都可以，我再次強調，質詢就像一面鏡子，委員看到我就像我看到委員一樣，我們彼此尊重，國家就會進步。"],["林委員國成：院長，我是好言相勸啦！"],["卓院長榮泰：謝謝委員，我瞭解，我完全接受。"],["林委員國成：沒有那麼恐怖啦！我們現在回到正題，當然我要跟你談的就是勞工安心，政府就放心。大家都知道我們2,300萬人口有1,100萬是勞工，勞工在我們社會基層確實是扮演非常重要之角色，所以我要跟你談的就是勞保。我也很感謝我們從以前陳院長時的許銘春部長，到現在何部長，第一個，關於勞工疑慮的東西，也就是勞工一直投保，但是怕破產，這一點何部長跟卓院長一上臺就做了宣誓，政府會負起給付之責任……"],["卓院長榮泰：是。"],["林委員國成：你知道嗎？勞工心裡面踏實安心多了，所以我的主題很簡單──勞工安心，政府就放心，你們推行什麼，他們在勞工的角色上就會按部就班、認真去做，我今天要跟你們談的就是這個問題。","當然，一個部長是不可能把這個事情完成，院長你一定要力挺部長才有辦法把它完成。很簡單，我要利用簡短的時間特別跟院長做說明跟報告，關於勞保的破產，勞工的基金會演變成這樣是在省政府移交中央政府的時候，第一、沒清算；第二、不知道虧損多少。有些人怪民進黨，我說沒有理由，只要有執政的通通要怪，為什麼？我同意民進黨現在要概括承受，但是一味的批評民進黨對勞保基金虧損的責任是不公平的。勞工很簡單，對就對、不對就不對，所以我必須要跟院長報告一點，勞工所有的基金虧損跟勞工沒有關係，當初政府虧損有多少？我現在問部長、問院長，你們也不知道，到底那個洞有多深？但是我必須要提醒卓院長，84年4月1號把醫療移到健保的時候，我很大膽的跟院長報告，勞工基金這部分是不虧錢的，而真正虧錢的是前朝、前朝，以前的前朝，我為什麼要講？因為全部怪你們是沒有理由的，我們要把事情講得非常清楚，不要怪勞工說：繳少領多，現在卻要變成繳多領少，這對勞工是不公平的。院長，說實在的，我要代表1,100萬的勞工跟你請命，並把事實真相稟報給院長，讓院長做決策時不會做出錯誤的決策。"],["卓院長榮泰：謝謝委員的說明。"],["林委員國成：這一點我拜託卓院長，你要撥個時間去瞭解這個前因後果。","另外，我們也很感謝，從2020年到現在，你們算負責任的提撥了兩千多億，所以我看現在勞保基金的水位是有兆的，這代表什麼？這代表你們是負起責任的，因為勞工是無辜的，所有的虧損、政府經營不善而延續下來的大洞完完全全要叫你們馬上解決，這有點不公平，但總是要讓勞工安心。可以看得出來，你們組閣以後、何部長上任以後，勞工沒有吵、沒有鬧，他們覺得卓內閣、何部長說領得到錢，這代表什麼？就是代表勞工是安心的。我想，你身為一個內閣，你當然有義務去做，但是有一點我必須要說，勞工要的不多，勞工要的只是安心，勞工要的不是現在要比照公務人員等等更好的福利，最起碼是他們可以領得到錢、能夠安心，投保投了30年、40年，最後他們勞保的退休可以領得到。所以我要建議院長還有部長，關於這個撥補，在法令上是你們的行政措施，但是本席在這裡要拜託你們把給付入法，也就是確定給付這個部分要把它入法，我相信，我不曉得，卓院長，因為你已經擔保勞保不會倒，政府要負起責任，所以在這個部分，第六十九條跟第六十六條，本席都提了修改入法的案子，院長，針對這個你同不同意？"],["卓院長榮泰：謝謝委員剛剛對何部長有相當多的肯定，這個也是我們做事的目標，但是也要得到人民共同的支持，就算是同一政黨的執政，也是要延續、概括承受過去；就算不是，政府的工作還是延續的，現在該有的努力，還有彌平過去任何的缺口，這也是我們的責任，絕對不會推卸責任。至於對勞工的問題、對勞保，政府負最後責任，這個絕對不會改變，過去幾次我們也曾經在支付責任跟撥補入法當中有一些討論，現在這些立法要不要把它入法的這個過程、立場，我們還是一致的，希望取得社會更多的共識，勞動部一直在跟大家尋求這樣的共識。"],["林委員國成：謝謝院長，我要代替勞工跟你謝謝，勞工要的是一個確保，也謝謝卓院長勇於對這件事情的認同，我們、本黨也已經提這個案的修法，其實這個案非常單純，一個是撥補正常化，也就是院長認為應該要撥補就撥補；另外一個就是確定給付，讓勞工很放心，所以這點首先我還是要謝謝我們院長在這個部分，你可以對於全國的勞工勇敢的承認，這個部分政府要負全部責任，所以這點我要特別謝謝我們卓院長。"],["卓院長榮泰：這是應該做的。"],["林委員國成：好，何部長可以請回。接著請邱部長。"],["邱部長泰源：委員好。"],["林委員國成：邱部長，我時間比較少，但是我必須要讓你看一下，新冠疫情這個部分我要請教一下，因為你是醫生，我也知道你對整個醫療非常的認真，這個毋庸置疑，我也不要再跟你討價還價了，這部分你是行家，所以新冠疫情再起，政府準備好了沒？"],["邱部長泰源：跟委員報告一下，應該是準備相當周全，不管是從疫病趨勢的模式來看，我們7月中會到達高峰，但是應該就會下來，這是第一個；第二個，剛剛委員資料上面寫得很清楚，我們從持續疫情的監測、強化物品的儲備、調度，以及我們一直在更新應該有的感染控制指引，還有加強民眾的衛教，還有促進醫療院所的合作，大概都一直在做，最重要的就是藥物有沒有準備齊全，我們盤點到7月6號為止，瑞德西韋還有8萬多劑，倍拉維有18萬劑，而基層比較擔心的……"],["林委員國成：醫療沒有問題，這都沒有問題，部長，我在這裡提醒你一下，因為你對於這些是行家，我相信卓院長也會力挺你們，但是老百姓的生命是非常重要的，這次的疫情死亡率有一點偏高，所以這個部分部長可能要代替院長特別去注意這些。另外一個，政府如果有作為，現在就很簡單，到底各醫院的口罩要不要戴，現在臺大醫院規定要戴，但是其他醫院不一定要戴，所以這個部分建議部長要不要統一呢？小小的一個動作，可能就會給老百姓有一個遵循的方向，所以這個要拜託部長，我相信卓院長不可能管得這麼細，但因為你是衛福部，這個部分要不要統一，這很重要，就像交通的部分在高鐵上要不要戴口罩，這個你們要請專家做一個評估。"],["邱部長泰源：這個我們都會依照專家的指引，而各醫院、醫療院所更小心，這是好事情。"],["林委員國成：另外一個就是包括你剛才所講的口罩、快篩等等，其實有備無患，這是非常重要的。"],["邱部長泰源：是的。"],["林委員國成：講快一點，從SARS到新冠，我們都有經驗：預防勝於治療，而部長又是內行，所以只要民意代表向你提醒與建議，我相信你們都做得到，因為這是本來應該要替老百姓做的。還有一點我要提醒院長可能也要注意一下，小孩子打的預防針是比較小的、是比較偏低的，所以有沒有可能針對這些去做預防動作？院長，我給你建議。"],["卓院長榮泰：是。"],["林委員國成：你在整個統籌時要注意這些，因為我們提出的是事實。拜託院長，雖然你國事繁忙，但這最起碼的你還是要去注意。"],["卓院長榮泰：人民健康是永遠擺第一的，謝謝委員的提醒。"],["林委員國成：院長，坦白說，我剛才講的一碗牛肉麵的故事，讓我心裡覺得卓榮泰永遠讓我感覺是彬彬有禮、做事認真，是廣結善緣之人。"],["卓院長榮泰：委員真是有情有義。"],["林委員國成：我也要針對拜託院長，一定要支持勞工，第二個，要支持衛福部，好不好？"],["卓院長榮泰：謝謝委員指教，一定。"],["邱部長泰源：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝林委員，謝謝卓院長。","下一位我們請李昆澤委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":182,"meet_id":"院會-11-1-21","speakers":["江啟臣","王定宇","黃國昌","羅明才","吳琪銘","葉元之","邱若華","楊曜","羅智強","黃健豪","盧縣一","蘇清泉","林國成","李昆澤","羅廷瑋","陳培瑜","林月琴","游顥","王正旭","林淑芬","涂權吉"],"page_start":93,"meetingDate":["2024-07-09"],"gazette_id":"1136601","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1136601_00005","1136601_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期第21次會議紀錄","content":"施政質詢\n對行政院院長報告施政方針繼續質詢─ 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我說實在的啦 這我要代表1100萬的勞工跟你請便 跟把事實的真相 稟報給我們院長 讓院長去做決策的時候 不會做錯誤的決策"},{"start":426.006,"end":445.551,"text":"這點我拜託委員長你就要有一個時間去了解這個前因後果那另外一個我們也很感謝從2020到現在你們算負責任的也提拔了2000多億所以我看現在勞保基金現在的水位"},{"start":446.894,"end":462.31,"text":"是有罩的。說這代表什麼?這代表你們是負起責任的。因為勞工是無辜,所有的虧損政府經營不善而延續下來的大洞。"},{"start":463.271,"end":481.5,"text":"往往全權要叫你們馬上解決這是有點不公平但是勞工總是要讓他有一個安心所以可以看得出來啊你組閣以後何部長上任以後勞工沒有吵沒有鬧他接著說左內閣何部長他們說娘有到錢"},{"start":487.043,"end":515.334,"text":"所以這代表什麼就代表勞工是安心的那這個我想你身為一個內閣當然你有這種義務去做但是我必須一定要有一點勞工要的不多勞工要的只是讓他安心勞工要的不是說你現在要比照公務人員等等的更好的福利最起碼的話他可以領得到錢"},{"start":516.334,"end":529.225,"text":"他安心我投保投了30年40年我最後我勞保的退休我領得到所以這一點我要建議我們院長還有我們部長這個"},{"start":531.956,"end":548.988,"text":"報補在法令上是你的行政措施但是本席在這裡要拜託要把己父入華也就是確定己父這個部分要把它入華我相信我不曉得卓院長"},{"start":549.568,"end":566.434,"text":"因為你已經擔保勞保不會倒政府要負起責任所以在這個部分69條跟66條本席都提修改入法的問題院長你針對這個你同不同意"},{"start":567.764,"end":593.631,"text":"謝謝委員剛剛對何部長有相當多的肯定這個是我們做事的目標但是也要得到人民共同的支持就算是同一政黨的執政也要延續概括承受過去就算不是政府的工作還是延續的前政府現在該有的努力我們要把它擬平過去的任何的缺口也是我們的責任這個絕不推卸責任"},{"start":594.452,"end":619.083,"text":"至於對勞工的問題對勞保的政府負最後責任這個絕對不會改變那麼過去幾次我們也曾經在支付責任跟撥補入法當中我們有一些討論那現在這些立法要不要把它入法裡面的這個過程立場我們還是一致那希望取得社會更多的共識那勞動部一起再跟大家尋求這樣的共識"},{"start":620.764,"end":643.686,"text":"謝謝院長我要代替勞工跟你謝謝勞工要的是一個確保勞工要的是一個確保那也謝謝卓院長勇於對於這件事情的認同但是我們本會也已經提這個案的修法其實這個案非常單純一個撥補正常化也就是院長認為應該要撥補就撥補"},{"start":645.808,"end":673.417,"text":"那另外一個就確定起伏讓勞工很放心所以這點首先我還是要謝謝我們我們院長在這個部分你可以對以前國的勞工勇敢的承認這個政府要負全部責任所以這點我要特別謝謝我們卓院長是應該做的好那個何部長可以請回來那個邱部長請邱部長"},{"start":686.138,"end":709.817,"text":"好來邱部長我時間比較少但是我必須就是要讓你看一下新冠疫情這個部分我要請教一下因為你是醫生我也知道你對於整個醫療是非常認真這個無庸置疑我也不要再跟你討價還價這是你是行家"},{"start":711.838,"end":737.911,"text":"政府準備好了沒有?新冠疫情再起準備好了沒有?跟委員報告一下應該準備相當周全不管是從我們一個疫病的一個歧視的模式來看我們7月中會到達高峰但是應該就會下來那這是第一個第二個我們剛剛委員上面有寫得很清楚我們從持續疫情的監測強化這個物品的儲備調度"},{"start":739.312,"end":756.33,"text":"以及我們一直在更新我們應該有的感染控制指引還有加強民眾的衛教還有跟促進醫療院所的合作大概都一直在做那最重要的就是藥物有沒有準備的期前那我們盤點到7月6日瑞德西韋還有8萬多劑"},{"start":759.76,"end":779.972,"text":"拜登偉有18萬劑基層比較擔心的那個醫療沒有問題來部長我這裡提醒你一下因為你對於這些是行家我相信卓院長也會力挺你們但是老百姓的生命是非常重要這次的疫情"},{"start":780.792,"end":797.968,"text":"此往日有一點偏高所以這個部分部長可能要代替院長要特別去注意這些那另外一個這個政府如果有作為現在很簡單到底各醫院口罩要不要戴"},{"start":799.009,"end":817.202,"text":"現在臺大醫院是規定人家要帶喔但是其他醫院不一定帶喔所以這個建議部長要不要統一小小的動作可能就會給老百姓有一個遵行的方向所以這個要拜託部長"},{"start":818.823,"end":838.341,"text":"我相信卓院長不可能管得這麼細但是因為你是衛福部這個部分要不要統一這很重要到底交通那個高鐵還要不要戴口罩這個你們要做專家的一個評估這個我們都會依照專家的指引那各醫院醫療院所更小心這是好事情"},{"start":838.881,"end":853.554,"text":"另外一個就是包括你剛才所講的口罩啦快篩啦這個等等其實有備無犯這是非常重要的因為我們講快一點從SARS到我們新冠我們都有經驗"},{"start":854.875,"end":876.141,"text":"那預防勝過於治療那部長又是內行所以我相信只要像民意代表跟你提出這些提請跟建議我相信你們都做得到了這也本來也應該要替老百姓去做的所以在這裡還有一點我要提醒院長可能也要注意一下"},{"start":877.674,"end":900.934,"text":"因為小孩子打的預防針是比較小是比較偏低的那這個部分有沒有可能針對這些要去做預防動作所以一定我這樣是在建議你在做整個統籌的時候你這些因為我們提出這些是一個事實所以拜託院長"},{"start":901.815,"end":928.895,"text":"因為雖然你這個國是緩慢,但最起碼這個你還是要去注意一下。人民健康是永遠是擺第一的,這個謝謝委員的提醒。所以一定,我坦白跟你講啦,剛才就是我講過的一碗牛肉麵的故事,讓我心裡面藏著,卓榮泰永遠讓我感覺到是彬彬有禮,做事認真,然後廣結上演之人。委員是有情有義。"},{"start":930.416,"end":945.221,"text":"我唯有拜託院長就是針對問題拜託你一定勞工要支持第二個衛護部這裡要支持這樣好不好謝謝委員指教一定好謝謝部長好謝謝院長好謝謝林委員好謝謝卓院長下一位我們請李坤哲委員質詢"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}