{"error":false,"id":["154597"],"data":{"IVOD_ID":154597,"IVOD_URL":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154597","日期":"2024-07-10","會議資料":{"會議代碼":"委員會-11-1-35-33","會議代碼:str":"第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第33次全體委員會議","屆":11,"會期":1,"會次":33,"臨時會會次":null,"種類":"委員會","委員會代碼":[35],"委員會代碼:str":["外交及國防委員會"],"標題":"第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第33次全體委員會議"},"影片種類":"Clip","開始時間":"2024-07-10T09:26:48+08:00","結束時間":"2024-07-10T09:41:21+08:00","影片長度":"00:14:33","支援功能":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/1b498260953197f8d2b21dab48146ebda9bb3959728069a07ec06bbf1d30435cfeac053b3bfb4f645ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"王定宇","委員發言時間":"09:26:48 - 09:41:21","會議時間":"2024-07-10T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第33次全體委員會議（事由：邀請國防部部長顧立雄報告「國軍新成立類似美軍國防創新單位（DIU）後，對建軍整備有何革新作法及未來預期成效」，併請數位發展部、國家發展委員會、國家通訊傳播委員會、國家科學及技術委員會列席，並備質詢。）","gazette":{"lineno":141,"blocks":[["王委員定宇：（9時26分）謝謝主席，麻煩顧部長，先請政戰局長。"],["主席：請顧部長還有……"],["王委員定宇：部長你先坐，先請政戰局長。"],["主席：政戰局局長。"],["王委員定宇：局長，今年漢光40號的乖乖是你們做的還是陸軍自己做的？"],["陳局長育琳：今年的這個乖乖是國防部為了推展全民國防，希望民眾能夠關心國防事務。"],["王委員定宇：你知道我們多困擾嗎？現在大家要買卻買不到。"],["陳局長育琳：是。"],["王委員定宇：這是一個小事情，我今天特別把乖乖帶來，當然台積電的機臺上面都會放乖乖。"],["陳局長育琳：是，民間資訊業很喜歡。"],["王委員定宇：這個事情是代表著創意、代表著有趣、代表跟人民之間的親近，好事！戰訓本務當然重要，但是要用哪個介面讓人民看到國軍在做什麼，因為這樣有好多人就開始說漢光40號是什麼事情，所以不管是哪個單位做的，這不是顧部長做的吧？乖乖是你做的還是誰做的？我建議，你們現在好像是限量？"],["陳局長育琳：是，限量。"],["王委員定宇：市面上好像也沒有了。"],["陳局長育琳：我要瞭解一下，因為我們限量2,500箱。"],["王委員定宇：我不知道其他委員怎麼樣，本席就這麼一包，我連拆開來吃都不敢，就這一包而已，我建議在漢光演習期間，如果我們有這樣的創意發想，我以前看過小朋友拿著國旗在路邊，以前在軍演的時候會有一些鼓舞軍心的事情，我倒覺得這是滿好的一件事情，一個季節限量版讓有興趣的人可以買到，上面可以傳遞一些不管對募兵或……"],["陳局長育琳：漢光小學堂。"],["王委員定宇：漢光要傳遞軍民一體或者是全民民防的訊息在上面，本小利多，它還可以賣錢，這個事情先讓你參考。我接下來請部長。"],["陳局長育琳：謝謝委員。"],["王委員定宇：謝謝，所以到底是不是政戰局用的？"],["陳局長育琳：是。"],["王委員定宇：有沒有冤枉你？"],["陳局長育琳：沒有，這是我們製作的，心戰大隊……"],["王委員定宇：好，心戰大隊做的嗎？"],["陳局長育琳：是。"],["王委員定宇：因為我以前看你們空飄氣球到中國也有類似這樣的東西，你先請回。","部長，我們回到相關不管叫DIU，或者是我們軍事裝備的研製、採購等等，本席有幾個問題要就教於您。第一個，這個看起來無聊，但是很重要的一件事情，我們在政府採購法裡面，有關軍事機關財物勞務採購減價收受作業規定，我今天特別拿出「減價收受」，我們常常在發包比方3,000萬或者1億的某一個品項的時候，當然要如期如質交貨，但是會有物價調整、會有原物料缺乏、會有關鍵零組件突然尋商不到，就會產生變數，或者像蓋營舍、蓋砲校，在物價調整的時候，經費不夠了，我們常常就會追加預算或是減項，還有一種就是減價收受。","追加預算或者是減項發包有相關的規定，你不能高到一個比例，像最近基隆市追加預算可以追加到超過50%以上，那個都罕見。我今天特別focus在所謂的減價收受的部分，減價收受須符合六個條件，例如現在有一個標案，你標到了，結果你做不出來或做出來的成品不符合標案設定的品項、項目或數值的時候，在符合這六個條件的情況下，就可以打折給他買進來。部長，這個狀況你應該瞭解？"],["顧部長立雄：我當律師的時候有處理過類似的案件。"],["王委員定宇：這裡面會有一些可能產生弊端的地方，值得思考的部分，第一個，他為什麼後面會做不出來？有一種可能是低價搶標，比方說，這一個裝備在國際市場上都是一億，他用5,000萬標到了，你又不能用made in china的，他到時候交貨就會有困難。還有一種情形是，他以為搶了便宜標到了，可能被特定廠商把供應鏈掌握住了，他根本買不到貨，所以像之前整流器，上一次中科院爆發一個整流器弊案，小東西，結果他去找原廠，原廠就是不賣給他，他就跑去浙江找一個廠做假的來供應。還有一種情形是，這個標案原來設定的價格就太低，所以正常的、有能力的廠商不進來投標，變成一些良莠不齊，只要有生意做就切進來的。","所以，減價收受是末端，源頭的標案可能有很多樣態，根據減價收受的作業規定，有六種情形可以減價收受。我這邊要提醒不管是採購室、中科院、軍備局或者是部長這裡，常常各單位在結案的壓力下，就用減價收受把案子處理掉，我不知道部長還是各位主管，有沒有看過這個情形？"],["顧部長立雄：減價收受，當然我來國防部這裡還沒有碰到，但是我過去在擔任律師的期間，減價收受確實是一個，對主管來講，做決定的時候，是很困難的一件事情……"],["王委員定宇：很大的考驗喔，很大的考驗。"],["顧部長立雄：我記得好像是馬特拉……"],["王委員定宇：馬特拉也是啊！"],["顧部長立雄：對，但是它就還可以用，只是它……"],["王委員定宇：我現在舉幾個樣態，比方說軍用車輛某一個零部件，標案是指定一定要什麼規格，現在供貨供應的東西可以用，不影響安全，就像整流器，也可以過電，只是跟原來要求的產地不一樣；或者它沒有用到中國的產地，但是可能規格不一樣；甚至於防彈背心，防彈背心可以減價收受，我都覺得很不解。有的東西就是過關跟不過關，可以不可以，我不能打六折，打七折，部長，你懂我的意思嗎？所以我會建議部長，部長是法律的專業，在減價收受上可能要有一個team去review一下，我只能點到這裡。"],["顧部長立雄：對，減價收受就我的瞭解，我過去處理的相關經驗，都要經過相關的專業，包括法律專業跟使用單位很審慎的評估……"],["王委員定宇：所以，這一題我先提到這裡，比方我舉例，我曾經跟陸軍討論過，像我們在偵測無人機，參謀長，你不用上來，就偵測無人機，它在距離六公里、幾公里要有什麼能力，那是絕對標準，結果我們設定的評分標準竟然是好啦，你沒有六公里，那我給你70%的分數，本來要買三項整合的，到最後有一個應該是零分的，就只買到兩項整合，結果國軍就當了冤大頭。","所以減價收受是各位擔任主管，在做決定的時候最大的痛苦，也是最大的陷阱。你可能收了品質不合規的，它整體還可以用，但是這個標案在源頭就作弊了，或者這個標案可能會有一些問題，所以我今天特別先點出減價收受，請部長review一下。","未來我會拿一些具體個案給各位，我也建議，尤其剛接主管的，像李世強剛接中科院，這種剛接主管的，比如戰規司，剛接主管的該看一下既有的減價收受的案件，看一下，不管是營建類或者是其他的。如果它品項的品質都達標，只是原來要求一千件，他只做了六百件，這個還可以討論，但是如果在品質上堪用卻減價收受的，這個都值得懷疑。甚至我們應該建立一個規則，品質未達標根本不可以用減價收受，這個給部長做參考，因為它的樣態太多，沒辦法每一個都把它列出來。","我今天要請教部長，上一次我們國防委員會有排一個考察是到軍備局所屬XT-112的兵工廠去看，那個是205廠嘛。當天有一位沒有當過兵的委員叫林憶君委員，他今天不在，他打滿靶欸，滿靶，打得比參謀長的分數還高。滿靶的原因後來我們就去看，後來我們也去試用了，發現有配備近戰瞄準鏡，四倍的近戰瞄準鏡，對於訓練射擊的準度、效率跟訓練時間的縮短，有非常大的幫助。我們到現在還在用覘孔瞄準，可是在戰場上如果要用瞄準鏡的話，我們平常都沒有這樣的訓練，特戰有而已，所以在XT-112這個裝備上，我們如果採購飛彈，採購所有的武器都追求打得更遠、射得更精準、更易形成戰力，訓練時間成本縮短，那為什麼我們的步槍兵，我們單兵的步槍不需要這樣的標準？所以，部長，我們未來有沒有可能讓這樣的光學瞄具，而且這個不用對外採購，是我們自己兵工廠生產的，能不能列為全軍標配，有沒有可能？"],["陳參謀長建義：報告委員，陸軍參謀長向您報告，如委員所說的，新式的步槍已經從機械瞄準改變為光學瞄準，效能的確是很好，我們的整規書（整體規劃書）也會在這個月送到行政院，目前我們的籌購，現階段是先以特戰跟下車戰鬥的……"],["王委員定宇：時間的關係，我提出此事讓部長思考，當然要花經費，但是我們也不是要求一年，可以是在五年或幾年內完成。我們現在新式步槍有幾個決策需要參考，部長，這個很重要，我要提醒你三點。就我瞭解，我們兵工廠有在研製6.8口徑的步槍，6.8口徑跟我們現在用的5.56口徑，因為北約用6.8的，美軍的新式步槍用6.8的，共軍用6.8的，我們現在國軍還是5.56的口徑，所以如果軍備局研製的新式步槍有6.8，重量差異不大，那我們整批換裝是不是要用T-112還是要其他的，這是一個決策要思考的。因為6.8口徑子彈比較大，所攜彈藥的數量比較小，但是打中的時候，對方不能動的機率比較大；5.56打中的話，對方還可以往前衝，跟防彈背心形成矛與盾的競爭。所以我沒有說有絕對答案，也就是說6.8正在研製中，聽說今年底會出來，那我們現制的T-112是好槍，坦白講K2也不錯，國際評價也很好，所以當我們要換裝新式步槍的時候，到底要進到6.8，跟北約、美軍一樣，還是維持5.56，這是一個重大的決策，因為這一決定，20年以後再看下一批了。","第二個重要決策是，我們的步槍要更換，那我們的現役部隊，至少第一線部隊，不是只有特戰，如果能夠配上光學瞄具提高它的精準度，他的打擊能力提高，而且最重要的是，步槍兵的訓練時間縮短，效率提高。如此在平時可以提高訓練成效，縮短射擊訓練時間，大幅提升精準度；但是如果在特殊時候或者是在戰時，後備要形成戰力，形成有效的步槍兵，那個訓練時間就非常非常的重要。這個請部長思考，我們可以分年把它撥上去。","謝謝主席給我時間，我最後一句話就是，我剛剛跟陳永康委員在討論，我們現在空軍有整個建制部隊在美國那邊受訓，陸軍也有營級聯兵營兩個營在美國受訓，美國也有派人來我們這邊協訓，但是我們現在海軍並沒有在美方的艦艇上訓練的，至少就我知道沒有，但這個是很重要的。","再來，剛才羅美玲委員問的驗證，我們現在在場的所有將領都沒有在美國的相關實驗室，跑那個模擬是要工程師跑，要不然會變動畫。所以可不可以爭取到這兩個？就是海軍在艦艇上進行跨國的協訓，或者是我們相關的人員能夠進到他們的實驗室去做一定的訓練，請部長做參考，謝謝。"],["主席：好，謝謝。"],["顧部長立雄：委員不需要我回答嗎？"],["王委員定宇：再借我30秒就好了。"],["顧部長立雄：6.8公釐的步槍研發會在今年開始進行，在113年底以前完成研製跟交軍的測評，那麼您剛剛提到的那些瞄準器設備，我們逐步到位，逐年編列然後到戰鬥人員……"],["王委員定宇：就是說全部的戰鬥人員都要有。"],["主席：好，謝謝。"],["顧部長立雄：那剛剛講的海軍，我覺得這個有一點比較機敏，我想不適宜在這個地方跟委員描述。"],["王委員定宇：好，謝謝。"],["主席：好，謝謝。接下來請黃仁委員上臺質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":44,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-35-33","speakers":["馬文君","羅美玲","王定宇","黃仁","黃國昌","沈伯洋","陳冠廷","徐巧芯","陳永康","洪申翰","鄭天財Sra 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China的"},{"start":256.633,"end":283.009,"text":"他到時候交貨就會有困難那還有一種情形是他以為搶了便宜標到了可能被別特定廠商把那個供應鏈掌握住了他根本買不到貨所以之前整流器有沒有以前上次中科院爆發一個整流器小東西結果呢他去找原廠原廠就是不賣給他他就跑去找這樣吧找一個廠做假的來供應還有一種情形是"},{"start":284.784,"end":302.456,"text":"這個標案呢原來就用低價太低的價格設定所以正常的有能力的廠商不進來會變成一些良誘不齊只要有生意做他就切進來的所以減價收受是末端源頭的標案是可能有很多樣態"},{"start":303.777,"end":329.071,"text":"那這裡面有6種情形可以減價收受我這邊要提醒我們不管是採購室、中科院、軍備局或者是部長這裡我們常常各單位在結案的壓力下在結案的壓力下就用減價收受把這個案子處理我不知道部長還是各位這個主管有沒有看過這個情形"},{"start":332.057,"end":356.269,"text":"檢架收受當然我來國防部這裡還沒有碰到但是我過去在擔任律師檢架收受確實是一個對主管來講做決定的時候是一個很困難的一件事情很大的考驗我記得好像是馬特拉馬特拉也是對但是他就還可以他可以用只是他所以現在就是說我現在舉幾個樣態就是說比方說"},{"start":359.858,"end":381.364,"text":"我這個車子軍用車輛某一個零部件標案的時候是指定一定要什麼的他現在供貨供的東西可以用不影響安全就像整流器也可以過電只是跟原來要求的產地不一樣他沒有用到中國的產地他可能規格不一樣甚至於防彈背心防彈背心可以減價收售我都覺得很"},{"start":387.694,"end":396.906,"text":"有的東西是過關跟不過關可以不可以我不能打六折打七折部長懂我意思嗎所以我會建議部長部長是法律的專業"},{"start":398.482,"end":419.017,"text":"在減價收受上可能要一個team去review一下我只能點到這裡這個減價收受我的了解齁我過去的處理相關經驗都要經過相關專業律法律專業跟這個使用單位他們的一個很深深的評估啊我這一題我先提了解比方我舉例我曾經跟陸軍討論過像我們在偵測無人機齁這個參謀長你不用上來不用上來就偵測無人機"},{"start":425.66,"end":453.194,"text":"他一個距離6公里幾公里要有什麼能力那是絕對標準結果我們設定的評分竟然是好啦你沒有6公里那我給你70%的分數本來要買三項整合的到最後呢有一個拿根本不應該應該是0分的就只買到兩項整合就國軍就當了冤大頭所以減價收售是各位主管擔任擔任主管在做決定的時候最大痛苦也是最大的陷阱"},{"start":454.042,"end":468.147,"text":"你可能收了品質他整體還可以用但是這個標案在源頭就作弊了或者這個標案可能會有些問題所以我特別今天請檢架收受請部長"},{"start":469.773,"end":498.999,"text":"Review一下那我未來會拿一些具體個案給各位那我也建議尤其剛接主管的像李士強剛接中科院這種剛接主管的站櫃司剛接主管的該看一下既有的減價收收的案件看一下不管是營建類啦或者是他品項的品質都達標只是原來要求1000件他只做了600件這個還可以討論但是如果在品質上堪用"},{"start":500.785,"end":523.219,"text":"卻減價收售的這個都值得懷疑甚至我們應該建立一個規則品質未達標根本不可以用減價收售這個我給部長做參考因為這個樣態太多沒辦法每一個都把它列出來我接下來請教部長我們上一次我們國防委員會有排這一個考察到我們軍備局所屬ST112的變工廠去看那個是205嗎"},{"start":530.92,"end":549.39,"text":"當天有一位沒有當過兵的委員叫林義軍委員他今天不在他打滿把耶滿把打得比參謀長分數還高滿把的原因我們就去看了後來我們也去試用了後來發現有配備"},{"start":551.181,"end":573.472,"text":"這一個近戰的瞄準鏡那個4倍的近戰瞄準鏡對於訓練射擊的準度、效率跟訓練的時間的縮短有非常大的幫助我們到現在還是在用瞻孔瞄準可是在戰場上如果要用瞄準鏡的話我們平常都沒有這樣訓練特戰有而已所以ST-112在這個裝備上"},{"start":579.281,"end":607.421,"text":"我們如果採購飛彈採購所有的武器都追求打得更遠射得更精準更易形成戰力訓練時間成本縮短那為什麼我們的步槍兵我們的單兵這樣子的步槍不需要這樣的標準所以我不知道部長我們未來有沒有可能讓這樣子的光學瞄具而且這個不用對外採購是我們自己兵工廠生產的能不能全軍變標配有沒有可能"},{"start":608.527,"end":609.088,"text":"報告委員陸軍參謀長向您報告"},{"start":612.458,"end":613.338,"text":"時間的關係我這是給部長思考"},{"start":642.248,"end":663.615,"text":"當然要花經費,但是我們也不是一年,我們可以五年或多少。就是說,我們現在新式步槍,有幾個決策需要參考。部長,這個很重要,三點要提醒你。就我了解,我們兵工廠有在研製6.8口徑的。"},{"start":666.729,"end":690.841,"text":"6.8口徑跟我們現在的5.56口徑因為北約用6.8的美軍的新式步槍用6.8的共軍用6.8的那我們現在國軍還是5.56的這個口徑所以如果軍備局研製的新式步槍有6.8重量差異不大那我們整批換裝是不是要用T112還是要其他的這是一個決策要思考的"},{"start":691.701,"end":710.035,"text":"因為它子彈比較大、吸彈量的數量比較小但是打中的時候對方不能動的機率比較大5.56打中了對方還可以往前衝跟防彈背心形成毛與盾的競爭所以我沒有說絕對答案也就是說6.8正在研製中聽說今年底會出來"},{"start":710.956,"end":739.123,"text":"那我們現值的T112是好槍坦白講K2也不錯國際評價也很好所以當我們要換專心式步槍的時候到底要進到6.8跟北約美軍一樣還是維持5.56這是一個重大決策因為這一決定20年以後再看下一批了第二個重要決策是我這樣子的步槍要更換那我們的現役部隊至少第一線部隊不是只有特戰如果能夠配上光學瞄具"},{"start":740.203,"end":757.55,"text":"他的精準度提高他的打擊能力提高而且最重要是步槍兵的訓練的時間縮短效率提高這個時候在平時可以有提高訓練成效縮短射擊訓練時間大幅提升精準度但是如果在特殊時候或者在暫時的時候"},{"start":759.432,"end":773.088,"text":"後備要形成戰力形成有效的步槍兵那個訓練時間就非常非常的重要這個請部長思考我們可以分年把它播上去那謝謝主席給我的時間我最後一句話就是我剛剛跟"},{"start":774.389,"end":787.287,"text":"陳永康委員在這邊討論我們現在空軍在美國有整個建制部隊在這邊受訓陸軍也有營級聯兵營兩個營在美國受訓美國也有派人來我們這邊協訓但是我們現在海軍"},{"start":791.428,"end":816.13,"text":"海軍並沒有在美方的艦艇上訓練的至少就我知道沒有但這個是很重要的再來剛才羅美林委員問的驗證我們現在在場的所有的將領都沒有在美國的相關的實驗室跑那個模擬是要工程師跑要不然會變動畫所以可不可以爭取到這兩個就是海軍在艦艇上的"},{"start":817.432,"end":826.596,"text":"謝謝。謝謝。"},{"start":828.411,"end":852.747,"text":"委員不需要我回答這個6.8公里的步槍研發會在今年開始進行那禮拜一十三年底以前完成研製跟交軍的測評那麼您剛剛提到的那個那些瞄準器的一個設備我們逐步到位逐年編列然後到戰鬥人員就全部的戰鬥人員都要好 謝謝那剛剛講的海軍我覺得這一點有點"},{"start":857.85,"end":858.832,"text":"接下來請黃仁委員上台質詢"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}