{"error":false,"id":["154601"],"data":{"IVOD_ID":154601,"IVOD_URL":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154601","日期":"2024-07-10","會議資料":{"會議代碼":"委員會-11-1-20-21","會議代碼:str":"第11屆第1會期財政委員會第21次全體委員會議","屆":11,"會期":1,"會次":21,"臨時會會次":null,"種類":"委員會","委員會代碼":[20],"委員會代碼:str":["財政委員會"],"標題":"第11屆第1會期財政委員會第21次全體委員會議"},"影片種類":"Clip","開始時間":"2024-07-10T09:46:52+08:00","結束時間":"2024-07-10T09:57:13+08:00","影片長度":"00:10:21","支援功能":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/1b498260953197f84259aad901673771a39103cf15d5982f7ec06bbf1d30435cb6f4c723cc33aa495ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"吳秉叡","委員發言時間":"09:46:52 - 09:57:13","會議時間":"2024-07-10T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期財政委員會第21次全體委員會議（事由：邀請中央銀行楊總裁金龍就「數位貨幣發行之規劃與貨幣之數位轉型」、金融監督管理委員會彭主任委員金隆、數位發展部就「創造金融科技創新發展空間與扶植金融科技業」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n【7月8日及10日二天一次會】）","gazette":{"lineno":177,"blocks":[["吳委員秉叡：（9時46分）主席，麻煩請央行楊總裁。"],["主席：有請楊總裁。"],["楊總裁金龍：吳委員早。"],["吳委員秉叡：楊總裁，我們今天一直在談的這個數位貨幣，它的定義是怎麼樣？"],["楊總裁金龍：數位貨幣最簡單的來說有兩個層次，第一個，我們把現在的現金數位化。"],["吳委員秉叡：現金數位化之後，那個現金還要不要再發行？"],["楊總裁金龍：假設我們零售型的CBDC開始發行的時候，當然我們的現金還是依然要發行……"],["吳委員秉叡：所以你印出來的現金存起來，假設我印了一兆的現金存起來，然後我相對應發行一兆的數位貨幣，是不是這樣子？"],["楊總裁金龍：不是這樣子，而是說我們的現金也是在流通，數位化……"],["吳委員秉叡：我知道，當然雙軌現金可以流通嘛，但是數位貨幣的印行後面是要有實體貨幣。"],["楊總裁金龍：對，委員問得很好，事實上，銀行現在跟中央銀行領取現金的時候都是要透過它的存款準備金去撥轉，也就是說我們的CBDC的背後就是存款準備金，這樣的話我要發出去的時候，它用存款準備金來跟我互換，跟現在現金的流通是一樣的。"],["吳委員秉叡：對，但是沒有給它的現金，央行要準備著嘛！要存放著嘛！我的意思是說，你的數位貨幣後面要錨定在現鈔上面嘛！"],["楊總裁金龍：委員提的這個也是一個問題，不過我再更進一步的講，以前我們都一直在報告，我們現金背後都是有準備，我們的準備是什麼？我們準備有兩種，第一個就是黃金，第二個就是我們的外匯存底。也就是說，我們現金的發行是採十足的準備，我有黃金、我有外匯存底做為我發行現金，同樣的道理……"],["吳委員秉叡：總裁，這個我瞭解，但是問題是像現在美國已經不採這樣……"],["楊總裁金龍：它也不是，它應該不是百分之百。"],["吳委員秉叡：是啊！它已經沒有跟隨著他儲存的黃金等資產去印鈔。"],["楊總裁金龍：我們還是百分之百。"],["吳委員秉叡：我跟你講，中國更嚴重喔！中國現在有一個名詞叫做「無錨印鈔」，沒有錨定，隨便它印啊！這是通貨即將要大幅膨脹、貨幣要巨額貶值的一種前兆啊！"],["楊總裁金龍：我跟委員報告，臺灣目前還是百分之百發行準備。"],["吳委員秉叡：是啦！我的意思是說，從這個邏輯推論起來，我認定目前的數位貨幣要錨定在我所有的現金上，假設我發行一兆的數位貨幣，我要儲存有一兆的現金嘛！當然，你說那個現金我可以不要用現金，我可以用黃金、我可以用債券，這我同意。"],["楊總裁金龍：沒有錯、沒有錯。"],["吳委員秉叡：那就是要錨定，總共的貨幣額沒有隨便增加，應該是這樣的概念啦！"],["楊總裁金龍：是、是、是，沒有錯。"],["吳委員秉叡：所以數位貨幣不是數字貨幣啦！因為中國現在在實驗數字貨幣，它實體的東西完全都不要啦！是不是會有這個問題？所以是數位貨幣還是數字貨幣，要弄清楚。"],["楊總裁金龍：不過有些時候他們是習慣用數字貨幣，當然有些時候會搞不清楚，這就像一個外國的名字在翻譯的時候，有的是翻這樣，有的是翻那樣，沒有一個共同的標準啦！"],["吳委員秉叡：現在有另外一個問題，你要發行數位貨幣，對於使用者來說，像我們一般在社會上活動的人在用錢的時候，你要尊重沒有能力使用數位貨幣，或是沒有意願使用數位貨幣的人，這個如何保障他們的權利？"],["楊總裁金龍：沒錯，所以我才會說，如果我們決定CBDC也要推出去之後，事實上現金還是會留存的。"],["吳委員秉叡：我舉例，已經有我的朋友去日本觀光回來跟我講說，日本有的店不能用現金了，全部都要用pay的，他覺得非常不方便，坦白講很不爽啦！那我也只是暫時安慰他說，那這樣子的店，你就不要去消費嘛！所以他去日本觀光的時候，他能夠選擇的店家就變少了，當然會影響到他的權益啊！"],["楊總裁金龍：對啦！"],["吳委員秉叡：我在講的就是這個，有的人沒有能力使用數位貨幣，社會上雖然都已經在數位化，但是有的人他就是對傳統使用的方法抱持一個比較安定的心態，不願意隨便變更，這是第一種人，這是沒有能力使用數位貨幣的人；第二個是沒有意願，像我就沒有意願，我為什麼所有的消費都要被你掌握得清清楚楚？我為什麼一定要留下跡證？"],["楊總裁金龍：對，委員講的我們也都考慮到了，所以才會說在我們推動的過程當中是漸進式的，委員講的沒有錯，這個就是我的習慣，如果說大家的習慣已經都改變的話，那麼CBDC就可以單獨使用，現金就會慢慢退到旁邊去了，這個是一個選擇的自由。"],["吳委員秉叡：我們擔心的是，當現有的現鈔慢慢退到旁邊去的時候，不能夠為了多數人可以使用CBDC數位貨幣，就去忽略那少數人不願意使用數位貨幣的權益啊！"],["楊總裁金龍：對啦！就中央銀行的立場來講，這個我們會考量，我們不會用強迫式的，自由的經濟體系不能用強迫式的，委員的講法是對的。"],["吳委員秉叡：我跟您提醒，我再講一個數字，當然數字不見得很準確，據入境人數顯示，中國的觀光客大概少掉九成多，當然理由很多，其中有一個很重要的理由是在那個地方的支付系統，外國的觀光客怎麼會用中國的支付系統？他去了中國，中國的店家全部都是用這種電子支付，全部都是用手機掃，使得觀光客在那邊沒辦法消費，這也是使得它的觀光客大幅下降的一個重要原因。我希望無論是金管會、無論是央行、無論是財政部，在考量這些事情的時候要面面俱到。"],["楊總裁金龍：是。"],["吳委員秉叡：我們贊成你去發展，但是同時必須要保留不願意使用的人的權益，不然有一天說九成的人都已經要用數位貨幣了，那一成的人你自己該死，或是讓店家給你加錢，這樣子的心態是不能接受的。"],["楊總裁金龍：我覺得委員講的都沒有錯，我們也有考量到這一點，所以我們的推動是漸進式的。"],["吳委員秉叡：最後再跟你請教一個事情，2019年8月15號我們境外資金匯回專法規定綁的時間是五年，到今年8月五年就期滿了，當然有一些資金已經投資廠商了，有些投資製造業了，有一些資金已經用到哪邊去了，但是還有一部分的資金解禁之後可以進入不動產市場。"],["楊總裁金龍：這個我跟委員報告，針對這個議題，事實上我們也有發布新聞稿去說明，基本上到目前為止還沒有動用的是1,380億，這個是要分三年，分三年的話，一年大概四百多億，這四百多億可以投資國內外，也就是說，這四百多億也不是全部都會到房地產去，它是會分散的，因為投資的管道很多，它也可以實質投資，它也可以金融投資、股票，它也可以到國外去，這都可以啊，也不是說這四百多億都會跑到……"],["吳委員秉叡：所以意思是你不是很擔心就對了？"],["楊總裁金龍：我覺得應該是說它是分散的，當時的規劃就有考慮到這一點。"],["吳委員秉叡：好，謝謝您的說明，麻煩請您回座。請金管會彭主委。"],["主席：有請彭主委。"],["彭主任委員金隆：委員好。"],["吳委員秉叡：彭主委，我看中國的金融巨變迫在眉睫，尤其是昨天美國共和黨的黨綱裡面已經規定，如果川普當選之後，對中國要有什麼樣的動作，這裡面當然包括香港。所以現在有一些西方的金融業者在香港準備要……說難聽叫出逃啦！講好聽一點說是要轉到別的地方，我覺得臺灣應該是一個有機會可以吸引到他們的地方，我們能不能構築一個比較好的環境來去爭取這個機會？"],["彭主任委員金隆：我們正在研究增加我們誘因的機制，這是我們未來建構成為資產管理中心一個很重要的點。"],["吳委員秉叡：這個速度要快喔！因為我看這個巨變，假設川普當選的話，這個巨變搞不好半年、一年就來了。"],["彭主任委員金隆：對，其實我們內部都有在因應各種假設情況的變化。"],["吳委員秉叡：那也要注意到貨幣兌換的問題，中國的人民幣在我來看是巨幅貶值，通貨膨脹的時間應該是很快，你要有以待之，加油！"],["彭主任委員金隆：謝謝委員指正。"],["主席：謝謝吳秉叡委員質詢。","接著請賴士葆委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":266,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-20-21","speakers":["郭國文","林德福","顏寬恒","吳秉叡","賴士葆","王世堅","李彥秀","王鴻薇","葛如鈞","賴惠員","陳玉珍","黃珊珊","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","羅明才","楊瓊瓔","李坤城"],"page_start":211,"meetingDate":["2024-07-10"],"gazette_id":"1137301","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1137301_00007"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期財政委員會第21次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請中央銀行楊總裁金龍就「數位貨幣發行之規劃與貨幣之數位轉型」、金融監督管理委員會彭\n主任委員金隆、數位發展部就「創造金融科技創新發展空間與扶植金融科技業」進行專題報告，\n並備質詢","agenda_id":"1137301_00006"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2.56221875,"end":3.79409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4.148468750000001,"end":9.34596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":9.700343750000002,"end":26.52471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":27.351593750000003,"end":42.30284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":42.52221875,"end":45.57659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":43.06221875,"end":43.180343750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":43.180343750000006,"end":43.399718750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":46.150343750000005,"end":47.24721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":47.56784375,"end":67.22721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":48.681593750000005,"end":48.985343750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":58.45221875,"end":58.469093750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":58.469093750000006,"end":59.970968750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":59.970968750000004,"end":60.190343750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":61.557218750000004,"end":62.384093750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":62.384093750000005,"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謝謝您的說明麻煩請你回座請金管會彭主委有請彭主委你好彭主委中國的金融巨變我看迫在眉睫尤其是昨天美國共和黨的黨綱裡面已經規定如果川普當選之後對中國要什麼樣的動作這裡面當然包括香港那所以現在有一些西方的這些金融業者在香港準備要"},{"start":568.65,"end":568.878,"text":"到此。"},{"start":569.701,"end":599.701,"text":"吳秉叡"},{"start":600.221,"end":600.521,"text":"謝謝委員指正 謝謝吳秉叡委員質詢"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}