{"error":false,"id":["154603"],"data":{"IVOD_ID":154603,"IVOD_URL":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154603","日期":"2024-07-10","會議資料":{"會議代碼":"委員會-11-1-35-33","會議代碼:str":"第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第33次全體委員會議","屆":11,"會期":1,"會次":33,"臨時會會次":null,"種類":"委員會","委員會代碼":[35],"委員會代碼:str":["外交及國防委員會"],"標題":"第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第33次全體委員會議"},"影片種類":"Clip","開始時間":"2024-07-10T09:55:53+08:00","結束時間":"2024-07-10T10:05:36+08:00","影片長度":"00:09:43","支援功能":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/1b498260953197f8d1a7eb991b06e7a9a9bb3959728069a090a5faf2fa6890fc089d1730ef7b1b9b5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"黃國昌","委員發言時間":"09:55:53 - 10:05:36","會議時間":"2024-07-10T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第33次全體委員會議（事由：邀請國防部部長顧立雄報告「國軍新成立類似美軍國防創新單位（DIU）後，對建軍整備有何革新作法及未來預期成效」，併請數位發展部、國家發展委員會、國家通訊傳播委員會、國家科學及技術委員會列席，並備質詢。）","gazette":{"lineno":234,"blocks":[["黃委員國昌：（9時55分）謝謝主席，麻煩有請部長。"],["主席：請部長。"],["顧部長立雄：黃委員好。"],["黃委員國昌：部長好。延續上一次質詢的主題，綠能國家隊聯合再生，我們納稅人投資了綠能國家隊。不要說投資，而是紓困，拿錢去給它亂花的綠能國家隊，竟然在我們的蘭陽指揮部……還不只，還包括了其他的海軍營區等等裝了中國製的逆變器。","上一次質詢完以後，也很感謝部裡的同仁，把一些聯合再生回報的結果，包括在軍醫局有22台，陸軍紅柴林營區有44台，海軍有62台，國防大學有83台，這些中國製的逆變器，他們都已經呈報回來了。我下一個要請……"],["顧部長立雄：跟委員報告，國防大學應該是沒有，你講的應該是三總的松山分院。"],["黃委員國昌：部長，您看一下，我現在在講的是逆變器。"],["顧部長立雄：對。"],["黃委員國昌：國防大學率真營區沒有？"],["顧部長立雄：沒有。"],["黃委員國昌：沒有嗎？好。是不是沒有，我等一下跟部長報告。針對有的部分，我上次跟部長提了嘛！如果我們國防部的要求是，對這種不肖廠商，只是抓到了就趕快通知它，你被抓到了，趕快換一換，不會有嚇阻的效力。上次部長承諾我說，你會回去研究一下契約。","當然，我前兩天也質詢過國安局局長，這個也就是說，在我們資通安全管理法裡面，針對這個部分沒有設罰則，我個人是期期以為不可，但沒有關係，現行的法規範狀態長成這個樣子，就契約上面，主張權利這件事情，國防部現在打算怎麼辦？"],["顧部長立雄：國防部就涉及紅柴林的營區應該是會終止合約，然後……"],["黃委員國昌：其他的部分呢？"],["顧部長立雄：其他部分跟委員報告，因為如果涉及變流器部分的話，我們評估的結果是，因為它沒有涉及運算、傳輸等等的功能，所以它只有逆變器這個部分，應該不至於有影響資安的狀況，所以我們會採更換的方式處理。"],["黃委員國昌：我跟部長交換一個概念，就是說，能夠到我們國防部的軍事要塞裡面去裝設這種東西的廠商，我們要很嚴肅地看待，我希望建立的原則是，不是它哪裡被抓到、哪裡換一換就處理掉了，而是要一體性地去評估。這一種會欺騙、會說謊，而且無視國防安全、無視國安安全的廠商，在本質上是不是我們國防部、各個部隊、所有其他三軍可以合作的對象？"],["顧部長立雄：跟委員報告，我們現在是這樣，因為它原來是租地或者是租屋頂，所以我們原來相關的驗收作為可能沒有……因為我們只是單純租地、租屋頂，可是現在我們已經要求了……"],["黃委員國昌：部長，你說的有道理，但……"],["顧部長立雄：就是以後要……"],["黃委員國昌：你說到的完全是point，它租地、租屋頂來幹嘛？裝它的東西嘛！"],["顧部長立雄：對，以後……"],["黃委員國昌：裝它的東西要發電嘛！它要賣電、要賺錢嘛！我們允許一個廠商，到我們的軍事要塞裡面，去裝各式各樣的設備，讓它發電、讓它可以賣電，所以我剛才跟部長講，這個廠商會不會欺騙很重要，這個廠商有沒有把我們國家的國家安全放在心裡面很重要，這個廠商有沒有顧慮到我們這一些非常辛苦、冒險犯難的軍人很重要，所以我才跟部長講，我只是跟部長交換一個概念，國防部面對這種廠商，什麼樣的廠商我們可以允許到我們的軍事要塞裡面來裝這些東西，這件事情要控管。為什麼我會做這樣的事？我跟部長報告，它絕對不是不小心的啦！上次我給你看的那個照片，照片上面的貼紙就「Made in China」，除非你把眼睛閉起來，否則你只要睜開眼睛，就會看到那個叫「Made in China」，它為什麼敢這麼大剌剌的？它有恃無恐，而且不只這樣，我給部長看，它說，有裝中國製路由器的工業電腦，只有紅柴林營區。這個是剛剛他們回報給部長的內容，我應該沒有掌握錯吧！"],["顧部長立雄：是。"],["黃委員國昌：好，清查的結果也是這樣說。我為什麼說他們騙國防部？我今天詢答完，我願意選擇國防部是被欺騙的，而不是國防部知道，在幫他們遮掩，因為這兩天我一直在想，到底是他們騙國防部，還是國防部知道以後，幫他們遮掩。","請看一下，這個是廠商的公務車輛RCX-○○○○（中華得利卡），維護日期是2024年7月2日，回報人員、維運人員的全名我都有，但我想不要為難基層的人，他們只是奉命做事，他們去做什麼事？他們去國防_率真校區_教學大樓等等，地點全部都有，然後說明處理的狀況，國防大學：應校方要求回收MIC（就是Made in China）相關監控設備，共11臺IPC+Router（這是資通訊產品路由器）（含Sim卡）回公司。那等於是什麼？等於是國防大學知道，通知這個不肖廠商，東西你來給我拆走。因為軍人自己不會拆那些資通訊產品。它已經通知廠商來拆走，廠商被通知以後，派人去拆，現在拆完了沒有？拆完了，所以才會有這個「維運監工作業回報」。結果國防大學是隱匿不報嗎？國防部是被蒙蔽嗎？請問部長，這到底怎麼回事？這到底怎麼回事？"],["林局長文祥：跟委員回報，6月26日委員質詢完之後，我們部長就非常的要求我們要落實……"],["黃委員國昌：這個我瞭解，部長很重視，請不要講……"],["林局長文祥：我們確認三次，回報只有紅柴林有路由器……"],["黃委員國昌：是，國防大學什麼時候回報的？"],["林局長文祥：至今我們沒有得到這個訊息。"],["黃委員國昌：對不起！我聽不懂，我上次檢舉就有檢舉國防大學啦！剛剛部長也說，國防大學沒有啊！所以到底是沒有，還是你們不知道，還是沒有回報，現在情況到底是怎麼樣？"],["顧部長立雄：我看委員既然有這樣子的質疑，我想我們下去之後會跟國防大學來進一步查明。"],["黃委員國昌：因為主席站起來了，我很快跟部長報告，你們是有發新聞稿的喔！國防部清查的結果有發新聞稿，說至於國防大學率真營區，則沒有使用陸製產品。我相信這是國防部發的新聞稿，所以我不曉得你左手邊的是哪一位，他剛剛說你們不知道。應該不是不知道，就有發新聞稿了嘛！"],["林局長文祥：是它沒有回報給我們，我們不知道。"],["黃委員國昌：如果沒有回報給你們，你們怎麼會說沒有呢？它應該是回報給你們說沒有嘛！而不是沒有回報給你們，我這樣理解沒有錯吧！"],["顧部長立雄：它應該是回報沒有。"],["林局長文祥：沒有，回報沒有。"],["黃委員國昌：好，我今天就是要跟部長檢舉這件事，它跟部裡面回報沒有，可是就有，而且還是它通知廠商去拆的，拆的還不是只有逆變器，有IPC，有路由器，含Sim卡喔！這個問題就嚴重了嘛！國防大學誰在包庇？跟廠商勾串嗎？這到底是怎麼回事？部長，可不可以承諾把它查清楚？"],["顧部長立雄：是，我們下去會把它調查清楚。"],["黃委員國昌：那個查清楚，查完了以後，查完的結果是不是可以回復給我？"],["顧部長立雄：可以、可以。"],["黃委員國昌：我只有一個原則，太可惡啦！太可惡啦！被抓到還幹這種事，被抓到還幹這種事！對不起我們的國防弟兄，甚至本來還要輕輕地放過它，結果還繼續在幹這種事，還欺騙國防部！這個責任一定要追究清楚。謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝。接下來請沈伯洋委員上臺質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":44,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-35-33","speakers":["馬文君","羅美玲","王定宇","黃仁","黃國昌","沈伯洋","陳冠廷","徐巧芯","陳永康","洪申翰","鄭天財Sra 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黃委員好部長 延續上一次那個質詢的主題綠能國家隊聯合再生我們納稅人投資的綠能國家隊不要說投資啦 是紓困拿錢去給他亂花的綠能國家隊竟然在我們的南洋指揮部還不止還包括了其他的海軍營區等等裝了中國製的逆變器那上一次質詢完了以後"},{"start":35.911,"end":64.69,"text":"那也很感謝我們部里的同仁把一些聯合再生他們回報的一個結果包括了說在軍警局有22台陸軍紅柴林園區有44台海軍有62台國防大學有83台這一些中國製的逆變器他們已經都呈報回來了"},{"start":67.072,"end":90.604,"text":"國防大學應該是沒有應該是您講的應該是三軍三總的松山分院部長您看一下我現在在講的是逆變期國防大學率真園區沒有沒有是不是沒有我等一下跟部長報告針對有的部分我上次跟部長提了說如果我們國防部有要求"},{"start":92.044,"end":117.84,"text":"對這種不肖廠商只是抓到了趕快通知他你被抓到了趕快換一換就不會有嚇阻的效力上次部長承諾我說你會回去研究一下契約當然我前兩天我有質詢過國安局局長這個也就是說在我們自通安全管理法裡面針對這個部分沒有設法則我個人是期期於而不可但沒有關係現行的法規範狀態長成這個樣子"},{"start":119.921,"end":135.062,"text":"那就契約上面,主張權力這件事情,國防部現在打算怎麼辦?國防部就那個涉及的紅柴林的營區應該是會終止這個合約那其他的部分呢?"},{"start":135.799,"end":151.711,"text":"其他部分跟委員報告因為如果涉及這個變流器的部分的話我們評估結果因為它沒有涉及運算傳輸等等的這個功能所以它只有逆變器的這個部分的話應該不至於有影響治安的這個狀況所以我們會採更換的這個部分來處理"},{"start":155.56,"end":172.077,"text":"我跟部長交換一個概念就是說能夠到我們國防部的軍事要塞裡面去裝設這種東西的廠商我們要很嚴肅的看待我希望建立的原則是不是他哪裡被抓到"},{"start":173.12,"end":196.881,"text":"哪裡壞一壞就處理掉了而是要一體性的去評估這一種會欺騙會說謊而且無視國防安全無視國安安全的廠商在本質上是不是我們國防部我們各個部隊我們所有其他三軍可以合作的對象"},{"start":198.331,"end":220.494,"text":"跟委員報告我們現在因為他是講他原來是租地跟或者是租屋頂所以我們原來的這一個相關的這個驗收的作為可能沒有因為他是我們只是單純租地租屋頂可是現在我們我已經要求了部長你說的有道理你說到的完全是point"},{"start":220.734,"end":248.725,"text":"他租地租屋頂來幹嘛?裝他的東西嗎?裝他的東西要發電嘛他要賣電要賺錢嘛我們允許一個廠商喔到我們的軍事要塞裡面去裝各式各樣的設備讓他發電讓他可以賣電所以我剛才跟部長講這個廠商會不會欺騙很重要這個廠商有沒有把我們國家的國家安全放在心裡面很重要"},{"start":250.045,"end":277.508,"text":"這個廠商有沒有顧慮到我們這一些非常辛苦冒險犯難我們的這一些軍人很重要所以我才跟部長講說我只是跟部長交換一個概念國防部面對這種廠商什麼樣的廠商我們應該允許他到我們的軍事要塞裡面來去裝這些東西這件事情要控管為什麼我會做這樣的事我跟部長報告"},{"start":278.829,"end":295.494,"text":"他絕對不是不小心的啦上次我給你看的那個照片照片上面貼著就Made in China嘛除非你把眼睛閉起來否則你只要睜開眼睛就會看到那個叫Made in China他為什麼敢這麼大剌剌的他有恃無恐而且不只這樣來我給部長看"},{"start":298.795,"end":314.632,"text":"他說有裝中國製路由器工業電腦的只有紅柴林營區嘛這個是剛剛他們回報給部長的內容我應該沒有掌握錯吧是好來清查的結果也是這樣說好來我為什麼說吼他們騙國防部"},{"start":318.252,"end":339.533,"text":"我今天詢答完我願意選擇國防部是被欺騙而不是國防部知道在幫他們遮掩因為我這兩天我一直在想到底是他們騙國防部還是國防部知道以後幫他們遮掩來請看一下這個是廠商喔公務車輛RCX中華德力卡"},{"start":341.123,"end":352.932,"text":"維護日期2024年7月2號回報的人員、維運的人員全名我都有但我想不要為難基層的人他們只是奉命做事他們去做什麼事"},{"start":354.093,"end":375.646,"text":"他們去國防率真營區、教學大樓等等等等地點全部都有然後說明處理的狀況國防大學應校方要求回收MIC就是Made in China相關監控設備共11台IPC加Routers這是資通訊產品路由器含SIM卡"},{"start":383.24,"end":408.951,"text":"回公司那等於是什麼等於是國防大學知道通知這個不肖廠商欸你東西也來給我拆走因為軍人他自己不會拆嘛那些資通訊產品他已經通知廠商叫他來拆走然後廠商被通知以後派人去拆拆完了現在拆完了沒有拆完了所以才會有這個什麼違運監工作業回報"},{"start":412.213,"end":438.63,"text":"那結果國防大學是以逆不報嗎?國防不是被蒙蔽嗎?請部長這到底怎麼回事?這到底怎麼回事?跟委員回報齁上6月26號委員執行完之後我們部長就非常的要求我們要落實這個我了解部長很重視請不要講我們確認三次就是"},{"start":440.131,"end":460.677,"text":"回報只有洪才琳有錄遊戲是 國防大學什麼時候回報的至今啦 我們沒有得到這個訊息對不起 我聽不懂我上次檢舉就有檢舉國防大學啦剛剛部長也說國防大學沒有啊所以到底是沒有還是你們不知道還是沒有回報現在情況到底是怎麼樣"},{"start":462.148,"end":488.217,"text":"我看委員既然有這樣子的一個質疑我想我們會下去之後會跟國防大學來進一步來進一步查明因為主席站起來我很快跟部長報告你們是有發新聞稿的喔國防部清查了結果發新聞稿喔所至於國防大學率真營區則沒有使用錄製產品我相信這是國防部發的新聞稿"},{"start":489.761,"end":516.337,"text":"所以剛剛我不曉得您左手邊那是哪一位說你們不知道應該不是不知道就有發新聞稿了嘛是他沒有回報給我們我們不知道對那如果沒有回報給你們那你們怎麼會說沒有呢他是應該回報給你們說沒有嘛而不是沒有回報給你們我這樣理解沒有錯吧他應該是回報沒有沒有回報沒有好那我今天就是要跟部長檢舉這件事他跟部裡面回報說沒有那就有"},{"start":517.87,"end":540.383,"text":"而且還是他通知廠商去拆的拆的還不是只有逆變器喔是IPC喔是路由器喔含SIM卡喔那這個問題就嚴重了嘛國防大學誰在包屁跟廠商勾串嗎這到底是怎麼回事部長可不可以承諾把他查清楚"},{"start":541.372,"end":555.346,"text":"我們下去會把它調查清楚那個查清楚查完了以後查完了結果是不是可以回覆給我可以可以我只有一個原則齁太可惡了太可惡了被抓到還幹這種事啊被抓到還幹這種事啊"},{"start":562.386,"end":564.428,"text":"我們接下來請沈博洋委員上台指導"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}