{"error":false,"id":["154604"],"data":{"IVOD_ID":154604,"IVOD_URL":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/154604","日期":"2024-07-10","會議資料":{"會議代碼":"委員會-11-1-20-21","會議代碼:str":"第11屆第1會期財政委員會第21次全體委員會議","屆":11,"會期":1,"會次":21,"臨時會會次":null,"種類":"委員會","委員會代碼":[20],"委員會代碼:str":["財政委員會"],"標題":"第11屆第1會期財政委員會第21次全體委員會議"},"影片種類":"Clip","開始時間":"2024-07-10T09:57:27+08:00","結束時間":"2024-07-10T10:10:54+08:00","影片長度":"00:13:27","支援功能":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/1b498260953197f84a22daac63d1b517a39103cf15d5982f90a5faf2fa6890fc970626aac8e0cc315ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"賴士葆","委員發言時間":"09:57:27 - 10:10:54","會議時間":"2024-07-10T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期財政委員會第21次全體委員會議（事由：邀請中央銀行楊總裁金龍就「數位貨幣發行之規劃與貨幣之數位轉型」、金融監督管理委員會彭主任委員金隆、數位發展部就「創造金融科技創新發展空間與扶植金融科技業」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n【7月8日及10日二天一次會】）","gazette":{"lineno":229,"blocks":[["賴委員士葆：（9時57分）謝謝主席以及各位先進，有請央行的楊總裁。"],["主席：有請楊總裁。"],["楊總裁金龍：賴委員早。"],["賴委員士葆：我先請教一下，現在股市天天漲、天天漲，外界大家都知道，股市漲，房市就跟著漲，你會不會擔心股市賺到錢就轉到房市去，又帶動房市新一波的上漲，會不會擔心這個事情？"],["楊總裁金龍：我想委員所講的這個都是有可能的，基於是一個行政院所推出來的健全房地產方案，我想也是各部會要共同要去密切注意的事情，中央銀行……"],["賴委員士葆：央行會不會有進一步的信用管制措施？"],["楊總裁金龍：委員，我們會密切注意，特別從去年8月以後，到目前為止，到我們的第一季，我們也都是隨時在密切注意當中。"],["賴委員士葆：因為現在通膨也是蠢蠢欲動，股市又漲，感覺就是國內的錢太多……"],["楊總裁金龍：我跟委員報告，通膨的議題慢慢是緩和下來的，如果我們是從CPI……"],["賴委員士葆：你的景氣線2%已經破了，會不會？"],["楊總裁金龍：我跟委員報告，當然剛剛有說我們前三年都有超過2%，不過如果來看我們的Core CPI（核心CPI），現在核心CPI都已經慢慢降到2%以下。"],["賴委員士葆：所以我可以講一句話說，央行不排除進一步的對於通貨緊縮的作法，有可能？可不可以這樣講？"],["楊總裁金龍：如果按照委員你的解讀的話，我想每一個人都可以解讀啦！不過如果從中央銀行的立場來看，我們會說我們會密切注意，我們會滾動式的檢討，該做的時候，我們也要去做。"],["賴委員士葆：就是不排除有進一步的作法？"],["楊總裁金龍：中央銀行的職責就是金融穩定，對於金融穩定，我也一直在講，事實上我們是密切注意房價的，但是房價不是在我們中央銀行法的經營目標裡面，中央銀行法的經營目標是什麼？是金融穩定，這個背後的意思就是，如果房價太高，它是泡沫了，這樣泡沫下來的時候危害到我們銀行體系的債權，當它沒辦法承受的時候，會影響金融穩定，金融穩定發生問題的時候，它會外溢到我們經濟的發展。"],["賴委員士葆：現在房市有沒有泡沫的危機？有沒有？"],["楊總裁金龍：所以我們就必須要密切的注意。"],["賴委員士葆：有沒有？"],["楊總裁金龍：我跟委員報告，我們觀察兩個指標，第一個指標是NPL，就是呆帳率。"],["賴委員士葆：NPL很好啊！"],["楊總裁金龍：但是呆帳率是很低……"],["賴委員士葆：很好啦！NPL很好。"],["楊總裁金龍：NPL是很好，但是一般都認為它是落後指標，所以我們要更精進，我們做什麼呢？我們做stress test（壓力測試）。"],["賴委員士葆：基本上都通過了，是不是？"],["楊總裁金龍：關於壓力測試，在去年3月理監事會的時候，我們就有向理事報告，6月份理監事會的時候，我們也有跟理事報告，到目前為止，我們認為如果它發生巨變的時候，我們的銀行體系還能夠承受它的……"],["賴委員士葆：我問你今天的題目，央行數位貨幣能不能有個時間表？什麼時候可以正式上路，開始全面發行數位貨幣？"],["楊總裁金龍：我跟委員報告，事實上到目前為止我們還是在往前推動、往前進步，但是……"],["賴委員士葆：你從2019年就開始推動了，到現在……"],["楊總裁金龍：不、不、不，這個要謹慎，一個貨幣的改革必須要謹慎，要非常謹慎。"],["賴委員士葆：臺灣有沒有完全沒有現金的那一天，有沒有可能？"],["楊總裁金龍：委員，我只能回答說，在我們可看見的未來，現金還是會存在的。"],["賴委員士葆：你最少可以講一個，你大聲的講……"],["楊總裁金龍：我只能這樣說啊！因為如果那是很久很久以後的事情，我覺得我沒有那個vision，我沒有那樣的天眼通來告訴你。"],["賴委員士葆：總裁，最少你可以講一句話吧，在楊金龍任內絕對不會沒有現金，這句話可以吧？"],["楊總裁金龍：對，這個我可以保證，在我的任內，現金還是會留存。"],["賴委員士葆：而且比例還很高。"],["楊總裁金龍：可能、可能……"],["賴委員士葆：比例還非常非常高、非常非常非常高。虛擬貨幣到底是不是貨幣？"],["楊總裁金龍：虛擬貨幣事實上現在……也就是剛剛我在講的，這個定義、這個翻譯，因為我們所說的虛擬貨幣，事實上在英文是虛擬通貨，然而虛擬通貨的「通貨」，我總覺得那好像是在騙人，而虛擬資產，我們只能說它是資產，因為在我們的報告裡面也講了，它沒有具備那三個貨幣的條件，所以它不是貨幣。"],["賴委員士葆：所以到目前為止，你還不認為虛擬貨幣是資產，就這樣子？"],["楊總裁金龍：它只是資產，不是貨幣。"],["賴委員士葆：好。請金管會的彭主委，還有數位部的林次長，好嗎？"],["主席：有請彭主委跟林次長。"],["彭主任委員金隆：委員好。"],["賴委員士葆：請教兩位長官，這是金管會講的吧？還是數發部講的？說詐騙24小時下架，然後我的FB被騙了、被盜用，結果我7月1號檢舉，兩天以後7月3號才下架，這誰管的？來。"],["林次長宜敬：跟委員報告，之前是臉書，就是Meta它們答應24小時會下架，因為我們也接到委員您的通報，由於您是直接跟臉書那邊通報，事實上臉書現在在處理下架的速度上，我們覺得的確太慢了，我們一直跟它抱怨，現在數發部這邊就成立了一個公眾人物打詐專用郵箱，就是對於一些公眾人物，包含委員您，以後如果遇到這種狀況的話，可以通知我們，由我們這邊直接向Meta反映，請它們儘速下架。"],["賴委員士葆：做不到就不要講24小時下架，你也可以講48小時、72小時比較好講，請24小時下架，結果都是假的，這個東西根本下不了架。"],["林次長宜敬：那是Meta講的。"],["賴委員士葆：不是你講的？"],["林次長宜敬：不是我講的。"],["賴委員士葆：好，我們來看，請金管會的彭主委。"],["彭主任委員金隆：是。"],["賴委員士葆：剛才楊總裁說虛擬貨幣是資產，也有人把它視為避難的資產，現在美國FBI資安報告提出，2021到 2022年損失4,300萬美金，金管會對於有關虛擬貨幣的這些交易造成的一些困擾、紛爭，你們怎麼處理？"],["彭主任委員金隆：現在我們對於這個就是，最近有兩個部分，一個是從洗錢防制，一個在打詐的部分，我們已經把虛擬資產匡列在我們的對象裡面，當然洗錢這塊，就是打詐裡面帳戶管理的部分，我們也把虛擬資產的業者VASP已經放在打詐專法裡面。"],["賴委員士葆：我再請教，三家純網銀在3月底的時候虧損大概接近60億元，未來可能增加網銀的數目嗎？"],["彭主任委員金隆：其實這是一個市場機制，不過大家對一些所謂的digital insurer或digital banking的獲利pattern，大家都有一定的想法，就是說銀行剛開始的時候建置成本很高，並不見得一開始用獲利來衡量它，我們也看到這三家純網銀確實在財報數字是這樣，但它們已經有開始呈現出改善的情況。"],["賴委員士葆：因為就是今天講到金融科技、科技金融，很重要的一環喔！"],["彭主任委員金隆：是的。"],["賴委員士葆：所以你的態度就是即便它們虧損，可是未來這一塊如果有人要申請，你們也是開放，是不是這個意思？"],["彭主任委員金隆：其實對市場來講，我們尊重市場機制，所以其實這些門，我們並沒有關掉。"],["賴委員士葆：我聽說金融研訓院要換人了，是嗎？"],["彭主任委員金隆：這是有任期制，各個組織都有它的任期制。"],["賴委員士葆：確定換人？"],["彭主任委員金隆：他的任期到了，現在……"],["賴委員士葆：確定換人？"],["彭主任委員金隆：現在人事……"],["賴委員士葆：就是蘇建榮走了、要離開了？"],["彭主任委員金隆：沒有，他們應該是在9月才會到期，我想這部分還有一段時間。"],["賴委員士葆：還有F4也要換人？有這樣子嗎？"],["彭主任委員金隆：他們會按照我們的制度，就是他們任期到，這樣會……"],["賴委員士葆：最後一小題，主席，再給我一點點時間。最後一小題，有一個暗網，請數位部認真看喔！虛擬通貨有個暗網、有個幣託平台，你只要上去，然後你就可以透過它去買這些，你看臺灣股票、臺灣證券，臺灣股民100萬全格式，去買然後就被騙了，這個有沒有法可以管？有沒有技術可以管？你知道暗網這個事嗎？"],["林次長宜敬：跟委員報告，以我的瞭解，目前並沒有法律可以管到這個地方，因為像這樣子的暗網，它的server通常是設在國外，所有這些……"],["賴委員士葆：它還成立協會，還有理事長，成立協會還有理事長。"],["林次長宜敬：是。"],["賴委員士葆：不是，所以它大刺刺在那裡，你們就沒得管了？沒有法可以管了？"],["林次長宜敬：是，我想這個地方是我們整個臺灣不管是行政部門或立法部門，都必須通力合作想辦法來管理這樣的問題。事實上，世界各個國家對於這種暗網、這種交易都覺得非常困難，因為這個交易發生的地點事實上是在internet上面，有的像是這種加密貨幣的話，它根本就沒有在固定一個國家，因為它是完全去中心化的，所以到底是哪一個國家有這個管轄權……"],["賴委員士葆：所以你的意思就是沒辦法管？"],["林次長宜敬：是，現在全世界所有的國家都面臨到這個問題。"],["賴委員士葆：那金融會的彭主委呢？就這樣沒辦法管怎麼辦？"],["林次長宜敬：現在就是我們可以管的是虛擬貨幣的交易所，而不是虛擬貨幣本身，因為虛擬貨幣本身是完全去中心化的，但是虛擬貨幣的交易所是有它運作的地點，它是有server……"],["賴委員士葆：你們管得到嗎？"],["林次長宜敬：如果是虛擬貨幣的交易所……"],["賴委員士葆：交易所管得到嗎？"],["林次長宜敬：交易所如果設置在國內的話，我們就可以管得到，但是……"],["賴委員士葆：請彭主委講一下好不好？能不能管得到？像這些暗網，你們怎麼處理？"],["彭主任委員金隆：其實剛剛次長講得很清楚，這是全世界大家對於網路無國界、對於數位資產一個很重要的盲點，我在前面幾次也有跟幾位委員報告這個問題，就是特別對一些境外，還有像這種不是我們現在已經做機構管理納管的部分，確實我們要想其他的辦法來好好處理。"],["賴委員士葆：好吧！金管會、數發部，好好去想一下吧！怎麼去管理這些？被騙的是很多、洗錢的也是很多，謝謝。"],["彭主任委員金隆：是，謝謝委員指正。"],["主席：謝謝賴士葆委員的質詢。今天在王鴻薇委員的質詢之後，我們休息10分鐘。","接著我們請王世堅委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":266,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-20-21","speakers":["郭國文","林德福","顏寬恒","吳秉叡","賴士葆","王世堅","李彥秀","王鴻薇","葛如鈞","賴惠員","陳玉珍","黃珊珊","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","羅明才","楊瓊瓔","李坤城"],"page_start":211,"meetingDate":["2024-07-10"],"gazette_id":"1137301","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1137301_00007"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期財政委員會第21次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請中央銀行楊總裁金龍就「數位貨幣發行之規劃與貨幣之數位轉型」、金融監督管理委員會彭\n主任委員金隆、數位發展部就「創造金融科技創新發展空間與扶植金融科技業」進行專題報告，\n並備質詢","agenda_id":"1137301_00006"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2.83221875,"end":3.79409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4.30034375,"end":5.312843750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":5.71784375,"end":7.25346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":7.30409375,"end":7.87784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":8.232218750000001,"end":9.78471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":16.922843750000002,"end":17.715968750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":18.25596875,"end":19.77471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":18.610343750000002,"end":19.977218750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":19.977218750000002,"end":20.027843750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":20.027843750000002,"end":20.297843750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":20.297843750000002,"end":22.42409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":22.778468750000002,"end":23.132843750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":23.18346875,"end":23.21721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":23.21721875,"end":23.68971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":24.31409375,"end":25.91721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":26.05221875,"end":26.305343750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":26.305343750000002,"end":26.32221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":26.65971875,"end":28.81971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":29.71409375,"end":31.50284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":32.46471875,"end":32.88659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":33.44346875,"end":34.455968750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":34.69221875,"end":36.00846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":36.49784375,"end":39.67034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":39.97409375,"end":41.13846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":41.813468750000006,"end":62.89034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":63.71721875,"end":65.43846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":64.18971875,"end":65.10096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":65.43846875,"end":65.62409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":65.62409375,"end":65.64096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":65.64096875,"end":66.40034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":65.75909375,"end":68.39159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":68.69534375,"end":69.82596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":69.82596875,"end":78.56721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":78.68534375,"end":85.14846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":85.51971875000001,"end":89.67096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":90.46409375,"end":93.19784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":93.70409375000001,"end":96.31971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":96.31971875,"end":109.02659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":107.89596875000001,"end":110.68034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":110.68034375,"end":131.92596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":132.55034375,"end":133.69784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":133.69784375,"end":139.06409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":139.19909375,"end":141.42659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":141.69659375,"end":145.78034375000001},{"spe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Test。我們做壓力測試。壓力測試呢,我們在去年的,我們在3月的時候,理監事會的時候呢,我們就有向理事報告。我們6月份的時候呢,我們理監事會的時候,我們也有跟理事報告。"},{"start":273.953,"end":296.178,"text":"那到目前為止呢我們認為就是說我們如果說它發生巨變的時候呢我們的銀行體系還能夠承受它的這個我問你今天題目啊這個銀行數位貨幣啊這個能不能有個時間表什麼時候可以正式上路說"},{"start":302.392,"end":314.635,"text":"我跟委員報告,事實上我們到目前為止還是在往前推動,往前進步你從2019年就開始推動了,到現在你還要顧不顧啊不不,這個要謹慎,一個貨幣的改革必須要謹慎"},{"start":321.596,"end":324.477,"text":"我只能回答說在我們可看見的未來現金還是會存在的"},{"start":341.604,"end":357.272,"text":"你最少可以講一個很大聲的結論我只能這樣說啊因為如果說那很久很久以後的事情我覺得我沒有那個vision我沒有那樣的那個天眼通最少你可以講一句話吧那個總裁在楊金龍任內絕對不會沒有現金對對對對這個我可以保證在我的陣內現金還是會留存"},{"start":367.517,"end":377.722,"text":"而且比例還很高可能可能比例還非常非常高還非常非常非常高這個虛擬貨幣到底它是不是貨幣啊"},{"start":386.426,"end":407.475,"text":"虛擬貨幣事實上現在所以也就是說剛剛我在講就是說這個定義這個翻譯有些時候就是說因為我們所說的虛擬貨幣事實上他們就說在英文他說虛擬通貨那事實上虛擬通貨通貨好像是我總裁人那是在騙人的"},{"start":408.661,"end":409.021,"text":"賴士葆"},{"start":442.839,"end":449.425,"text":"請教兩位長官這是金管會講的吧說詐騙24小時下架還是數位部講的結果我的FB被騙了盜用結果7月1日我檢舉7月3日兩天以後才下架這誰管的"},{"start":467.995,"end":468.035,"text":"賴士葆"},{"start":489.674,"end":508.282,"text":"在數發部我們這邊就成立了一個公眾人物打造專用郵箱就是對一些公眾人物包含委員您以後如果遇到這種狀況的話可以跟我們通知由我們這邊來直接向那個META來反映請他們儘速下架做不到就不要講24小時下架你可以講一個48小時72小時比較好講24小時下架結果都是假的"},{"start":514.264,"end":514.664,"text":"虛擬貨幣剛才楊總裁講說它是資產"},{"start":532.622,"end":553.861,"text":"也有人把它視為避難的資產。現在美國FBI資產報告提出來2021到2022損失4300萬美金這個經管會對於有關於虛擬貨幣的這些交易再存的一些困擾紛爭你們怎麼處理啊?"},{"start":555.102,"end":582.635,"text":"現在就是我們對於這個我們最近有兩個部分一個是從洗錢防治一個在打詐的部分我們已經把那個虛擬資產這個已經匡列在我們的對象裡面當然洗錢是最快這是打詐裡面的帳戶管理的部分我們也把虛擬資產的業者已經放在我們的打詐專法裡面我再請教這個三家存網銀在3月底的時候接近大概虧損接近60億元"},{"start":584.636,"end":611.451,"text":"未來還可能增加網銀的數目嗎?現在其實這是一個市場機制不過就是大家對一些所謂的digital insurer或digital banking的這個獲利的pattern大家都有一定有個想法就是說一個銀行剛開始的時候建制成本很高並不見得一開始用獲利來衡量它我們也看到這三家存網銀確實在財報數字是這樣但他們已經有開始呈現出就是改善的一個"},{"start":611.991,"end":632.996,"text":"因為這是今天講到金融科技、科技金融很重要的一環囉所以你的態度就是說即便他們虧損可是為了這一塊如果有人要申請你們也是開放是不是這個意思其實我們對市場來講我們尊重市場機制所以我們其實這些門我們並沒有關掉我聽說金融元氣業你們要換人了是不是"},{"start":635.033,"end":662.592,"text":"這是有任期制,各個組織都有他的任期制。確定換人?確定換人?這個蘇建隆走了,要離開了?沒有,他們應該是在9月才會到期啦,我想這部分還有一段時間。還有F4也要換人?他們會按照我們的制度,就是他們有任期到。好,最後一小題啊,這個主席再給我一點點時間。最後一小題啊,有一個暗網,請那個數位部認真看喔。"},{"start":664.366,"end":684.975,"text":"虛擬通貨有個暗網叫做幣有個平台的幣拖平台你這樣上去然後你就可以通過它去買這些台灣你看台灣股票台灣證券台灣股民100萬的全格式去買然後就被騙了這個有沒有法可以管有沒有技術可以管你知道這個事吧暗網"},{"start":688.682,"end":711.575,"text":"根委員報告,依我的瞭解目前並沒有法律可以管到這個地方,因為像這樣子的案網,它的那個server通常是設在國外。那這些所有...他成立協會了,還有理事長,成立協會還有理事長。是。不是,所以他大落落在那裡你們說沒得管了,沒有法可以管了。"},{"start":712.824,"end":739.02,"text":"我想這個地方是我們整個臺灣不管是行政部門或立法部門都必須通力合作想辦法來管理這樣的問題事實上世界各個國家對這種暗網這種交易都覺得非常的困難因為它這個交易發生的地點事實上是在Internet上面那有的像是這種加密貨幣的話它根本就沒有在固定一個國家因為它是完全去中心化的"},{"start":739.6,"end":762.588,"text":"所以到底是哪一個國家有這個管理?是,現在全世界所有的國家都遇到這個問題。那現在就是說我們可以管的是這個虛擬貨幣的交易所而不是虛擬貨幣本身,因為虛擬貨幣本身是完全去中心化的,但是虛擬貨幣的交易所是有它的運作的地點。你們管得到嗎?"},{"start":763.877,"end":763.957,"text":"賴士葆"},{"start":786.445,"end":786.925,"text":"金融委員會主席"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}